The Warring States of NPF

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FoRSAkeN_oNe 12-04-2003 11:06 PM

Still on the Bush Resume.
 
Read this:

________________
Raerlynn
Master Swordsman

Joined: Nov 2003

Let me point out a very important, very over-looked point here:

The war on Iraq started around 1990's. We kicked Iraqi butt. Politicians said, well we beat them back, let them be. So the UN placed their little embargo, BUT the article (can't remember exact number) that stated nuclear disarmament had one very important point that everyone overlooked in their rush to bash Bush. Bush doesn't have to prove that Iraq has Weapons of Mass Destruction. Not in the slightest. The entire burden of proof rested on Saddam to complete and total disarmament, to be verified on-site by U.N. Weapons Inspectors.

All Bush did was enforce that article. Much of the U.N. that came up with that that article didn't support him. So how is it wrong for us to back a threat we made against a hostile country. (And don't try to tell me Iraq was not hostile before this or 9/11. Iraq has been hostile for a long time.)
__________________________________________________

That guy above... is looking over other U.N. rules. But first... when was the last time Iraq did something? That's right. TEN YEARS AGO. We ALREADY had a war over that. Now, onto the whole "but he had weapons" bull shit. This whole war on Iraq was brought up out of nowhere. There was no talks before of Saddam having weapons... and if he had them... WHERE ARE THEY!? I will tell you where: an alternate dimension for freaks sake! We whined at the U.N. for not finding any weapons, and unless you have been watching the news lately, you'd know that now, we are crying for the U.N. to help find weapons so Mr. Bushy doesn't look bad - especially since realection is soon. Now, onto an overlooked WORLD WAR LAW from the U.N.:
I do not remember what article it was, I think it was "the Laws of Just (maybe Fair) war"... or something similair to it. In the law, it states that no country will attack another country unpravoked. Example: Country "A" is attacked by Country "B". The Just War Laws then state it is ok to fight back. Now, let's say this: Country "B" shows no sign of attacking Country "A", and hasn't even mentioned of Country "B" and such... therefor, Country "B" made no threatening moves. Then Country "A" attacks Country "B". By the laws of Just War, Country "A" is in big trouble.
These laws were made (and yes, the United States of America was one of the countries to sign into this law) after the second World War. These Laws were made to make it that no country (even if it is those signed into the law) will attack another, and therefor, no war. If a country does go to war, unpravoked, then the leader of the country who began the war, gets charged for War Crimes. Now, when did Iraq do something last? Well to be honest, the last time may have been in 1998, but we did most of that by bombing Baghdad... ONCE AGAIN for fear that they'd have Weapons of Mass Destruction. (I am beginning to think Iraq is America's whipping boy.)
If some of us remember, President Bush is under fire for lieing about the Weapons of Mass Destruction. So, anyway, I hope us all can have an intelligent conversation about this subject. Good times to you all.
-FøRSA|<e|\|_ø|\|e-

Dynamite Kid 12-05-2003 12:10 PM

I believe the best place to start is by looking over the terms of surrender from Gulf War I. According to terms of surrender, the United States was not allowed to remove Hussein from power. There also is the tricky bit re: destruction of weapons facilities, which neither side was very clear on. I tend to give the benefit of the doubt here to Iraq, as it's very difficult to prove that something is not there. Some more open sources from the pro-attack coalition would have been largely appreciated. But, most importantly, under generally accepted international law, a "pre-emptive strike" without discernible proof or a mandate is still an attack. This is of course still up in the air, as the entire surface of the nation has not been searched. It's depressing, however, that there have been no breakthroughs re: chemical and biological weapons. This makes my country look quite overzealous and bad in world eyes, and does not help the world in the way of curbing Islamic fundamentalism. We might need to start on those free Iraqi elections yesterday, along with a more open policy about what's going on in Iraqi government. I can't help but feel I'm not getting the full story.

Some reading:

George Bush, Sr. on why Saddam was not toppled.

http://www.thememoryhole.org/mil/bushsr-iraq.htm

Good news possibly on the horizon for an international effort.

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/...p?story=470219

Now if there's a more open attitude toward international investments in the rebuilding (and this includes French companies - why not go to the companies who built this stuff?), we can get Iraq back to work even faster. Right now it smacks of a big kiss on the lips to certain concerns.

DarthZeth 12-05-2003 09:40 PM

Quote:

According to terms of surrender, the United States was not allowed to remove Hussein from power.
right. it was an agreement. Hussein behaves, we don't remove him from power. Once he breaks his terms, we break ours.

As for "proof" ill refer to this article form Stuart Cohen, publish in the Washington Post on Nov. 28, Myths About Intelligence


*edit*
The Washington Post article is really just an abridged version of this statement released by the CIA:
Iraq's WMD Programs: Culling Hard Facts from Soft Myths

There is also the release by David Kay, the head Iraq inspector, outlining all the evidence found now of a covert, undisclosed weapons development research and planning. Ill get that to you with another Edit once i find it again
*/edit*

*edit2*
Here is STATEMENT BY DAVID KAY ON THE INTERIM PROGRESS REPORT ON THE ACTIVITIES OF THE IRAQ SURVEY GROUP (ISG)
BEFORE THE
HOUSE PERMANENT SELECT COMMITTEE ON INTELLIGENCE,
THE HOUSE COMMITTEE ON APPROPRIATIONS, SUBCOMMITTEE ON DEFENSE, AND THE
SENATE SELECT COMMITTEE ON INTELLIGENCE

October 2, 2003

*/edit2



Quote:

Originally Posted by Washinton Post
Myths About Intelligence

By Stuart A. Cohen
Friday, November 28, 2003; Page A41


The National Intelligence Estimate (NIE) of October 2002 concerning Iraq's weapons of mass destruction (WMD) has been dissected like no other product in the history of the U.S. intelligence community. We have reexamined every phrase, line, sentence, judgment and alternative view in this 90-page document and have traced their genesis completely. I believed at the time the estimate was approved for publication and still believe now that we were on solid ground in reaching the judgments we did.

The NIE judged with high confidence that Iraq had chemical and biological weapons and missiles with ranges in excess of the 150-kilometer limit imposed by the U.N. Security Council. It judged with moderate confidence that Iraq did not have nuclear weapons. These were essentially the same conclusions reached by the United Nations and by a wide array of intelligence services -- friendly and unfriendly alike. Moreover, when U.S. intelligence agencies disagreed, particularly regarding whether Iraq was reconstituting a uranium enrichment effort for its nuclear weapons program, alternative views were spelled out in detail. Despite all of this, a number of myths have been created that seem to have gained traction with the public. A hard look at the facts of the NIE should dispel these popular myths:

Myth: The NIE favored going to war. Intelligence judgments, including NIEs, are policy-neutral. We do not propose policies, and the estimate in no way sought to sway policymakers toward a particular course of action.

Myth: Analysts were pressured to change judgments to meet the needs of the Bush administration. The judgments presented in the October 2002 NIE were based on data acquired and analyzed over 15 years. Our judgments were presented to three different administrations and routinely to six congressional committees. And the principal participants in the production of the NIE from across the entire U.S. intelligence community have sworn to Congress, under oath, that they were not pressured to change their views or to conform to administration positions.

Myth: We buried divergent views and concealed uncertainties. Alternative views presented by intelligence officials at the Department of State, the Department of Energy and the U.S. Air Force were showcased in the NIE and were acknowledged in unclassified papers on the subject. Uncertainties were highlighted in the key judgments and throughout the text.

Myth: Major NIE judgments were based on single sources. Overwhelmingly, major judgments in the NIE on WMD issues were based on multiple sources -- often from human intelligence, satellite imagery and communications intercepts.

Myth: We were fooled on the Niger uranium story -- a major issue in the NIE. This was not one of the reasons underpinning our key judgment about nuclear reconstitution. In the body of the estimate, after noting that Iraq already had considerable low-enriched and other forms of uranium, enough to produce roughly 100 nuclear weapons, we included reference to reported Iraqi efforts to procure uranium from Niger with appropriate caveats, for the sake of completeness.

Myth: We overcompensated for having underestimated the WMD threat in 1991. The NIE noted that we had underestimated key aspects of Saddam Hussein's WMD efforts in the 1990s. We were not alone in that regard: the U.N. Special Commission missed Iraq's biological weapons program and the International Atomic Energy Agency underestimated Baghdad's progress on nuclear weapons development. In no case however, were any of the judgments "hyped" to compensate for earlier underestimates.

Myth: We mistook rapid mobilization programs for actual weapons. Even with "only" rapid mobilization capabilities, Hussein would have been able to produce and stockpile such weapons in the run-up to a crisis, with little risk of being caught. There is practically no difference in threat between the two.

Myth: The NIE asserted that there were large WMD stockpiles and because we haven't found them, then Baghdad had no WMD. We judged that Iraq probably possessed 100 to 500 metric tons of CW munitions fill. One hundred metric tons would fit in a back yard swimming pool; five hundred could be hidden in a small warehouse. We made no assessment of the size of Iraq's biological weapons holdings, but a biological weapon can be carried in a small container. Lastly, despite considerable progress the Iraq Survey Group (ISG) is a long way from finishing its work.

We do not know whether the ISG ultimately will be able to find physical evidence of Iraq's chemical and biological weapons or learn the status of its WMD programs and its nuclear ambitions. Regime-directed destruction of evidence pertaining to WMD already has affected the ISG's work. Iraqis who have been willing to talk to U.S. intelligence officers are in great danger; some have been killed. And finally, finding physically small but extraordinarily lethal weapons in a country that is larger than the state of California would be a daunting task even under far more hospitable circumstances.

Confronting allegations about the quality of the U.S. intelligence performance have forced senior intelligence officials to spend much of their time looking backward. I worry about the opportunities lost because of this preoccupation, but also that analysts laboring under a barrage of allegations will become more and more disinclined to make judgments that go beyond ironclad evidence -- a scarce commodity in our business. If this is allowed to happen, the nation will be poorly served and ultimately much less secure. Fundamentally, the intelligence community increasingly will be in danger of not connecting the dots until the dots have become a straight line.

The search for WMD cannot and should not be about the reputation of U.S. intelligence. Men and women from across the intelligence community continue to focus on this issue because finding and securing weapons and the know-how that supported Iraq's WMD programs before they fall into the wrong hands is vital to our national security. If we eventually are proved wrong -- that is, that there were no weapons of mass destruction and the WMD programs were dormant or abandoned -- the American people will be told the truth; we would have it no other way.

The writer, who has been with the CIA for 30 years, was acting chairman of the National Intelligence Council when the 2002 National Intelligence Estimate on Iraq's weapons of mass destruction was published.


Patricoo 12-07-2003 10:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoRSAkeN_oNe
These laws were made (and yes, the United States of America was one of the countries to sign into this law) after the second World War. These Laws were made to make it that no country (even if it is those signed into the law) will attack another, and therefor, no war. If a country does go to war, unpravoked, then the leader of the country who began the war, gets charged for War Crimes. Now, when did Iraq do something last?


That law, honestly, everyone knew was never going to be worth the paper is was printed on. Without the signature of every sigle country in the world, it because impossible to enforce.

Listen, it's your guys fault voting for Bush. That you have the Democrats lost all good cannidates and it looks like all the country hicks are gonna vote for bush mearly because he is from texas. Bush is a horrible leader because he ISN'T OUR LEADER. his damn advisers and council men do just about everything for him. How do I know? It's obvious in all his speaches, in everything he does, in everyone arround him. Everything is so robotic, and we know so very little. Besides, the man has an IQ that could be counted on his fingers and toes.
Hell Gore won the popular vote, but then again mabey he shouldn't be president since he didn't EVEN GET HIS HOME STATE!

In all, don't let bush be president again. I have nothing against rebulicans, it's just that more of these crazy wars could happen.

DarthZeth 12-07-2003 12:10 PM

Quote:

it looks like all the country hicks are gonna vote for bush mearly because he is from texas.
thanks, Howard.


i'd also like to note (nto necissarily responding to you, pat) that Iraq started a war but Saddam didn't get tried for war crimes.

KefkaTaran 12-07-2003 02:25 PM

Dynamite Kid: I agree that it'd be a very good idea to get foreign business interests in on the rebuilding. It'd also be a large step towards proving that Bush isn't just granting favors to big business partners that are friends of his, which is very much how things have appeared.

Funny thing. Most of you will probably remember me going to Texas a while ago for a big conference. Naturally I ended up meeting many Texans and other Southerners. Turns out not all of them are so bad at all. ;)

Mog 12-08-2003 12:23 AM

I think its time for a third party.....frankly....sure voting democratic is going to stop any and all defense of ourselves....but for the most part...democrats have this way of raising taxes and excersising tight money policy at the same time...that is never good for the economy in any way, However appropriating funds to a state that practices this economic joke of a policy because they had two buildings fall down and go boom to the point that we are in a huge deficit is also unacceptable

KefkaTaran 12-08-2003 01:43 AM

There is a third party. And a fourth, and a fifth, and a sixth, etc., etc. There's just no mainstream third or higher party, and its highly unlikely there will be one anytime soon, sadly. People are too content not being politically involved and voting dem or repub.

Since when has voting Democrat stopped any and all defense of ourselves? And since when have Democratic economic policies been bad for the economy? I don't even consider myself a democrat, but nevertheless.

Patricoo 12-08-2003 05:48 AM

Quote:

it looks like all the country hicks are gonna vote for bush mearly because he is from texas.
yea yea yea, I didn't mean that sentence literally. But I really hate it when people get large amounts of votes mearly because of where they are from. Don't tell me that didn't happen. The American people are 65% dumb asses.

Mog 12-08-2003 07:31 AM

i know that in general, democratic policies are bad for the economy, im going to take two very well known liberal states, and then a state that not only generally isnt republican, but flip flops often. California and New York for some reason have not only a high state income tax and a high sales tax ontop of the federal income tax, but at the same time they manage to have some of the worst school systems in the entire country. Florida however has a 6% sales tax....no income tax, counties can elect to add one cent for road construction, so for arguments sake, we will say a 7% sales tax and has one of the best education in the country, you cant tell me that its because of tourism either, i do beleive that the california beaches and the sunset strip, and untill recently the twin towers, broadway, attract a lot more tourism than the now flailing disney company.

*EDIT* having a real low tax btw, is a conservative style economy just to make sure the point isnt lost in there


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