Reality?
 

Ok lets see if I can get this out:

So the idvidual perceptions of a person effects their interactions with the world and how the world interacts with them. Now that's all fine and good but lets take this a bit further. Now under certain conditions it may be possible for a human to actually change the world around him/her with naught but thoughts. There is some evidence for this but nothing super strong. A possible explination has been found for this in unique structures of the brain that promote Quantum states that are unusual in nature. In fact these very structures may one day pave the way for quantum computers.

Once again thats nice but we are going to go further yet. The shared expirences of people can also effect the interactions of people with the world and the world with people. This is something we deal with everyday called peer presure. However, it does exist in others forms; urban legends can greatly effect the behavior of people that even half belive. The more people that endorse a corse of action or a statment, a way of viewing the world if you will, the more power it gains until it starts to become a fact. This can be described as the placebo effect or in other ways.

Yet again I'll take this one step futher. If we take the "peer presure" model and view it with respect to the second statment something else entirely becomes clear. If one person can effect reality in a small way then millions could have quite far reaching effects. Effects that could be doing untold things, like creating a divine power to heal or a not so divine one. But wait there is even more. Like I said before the outside pressure of others effects the behavior and perceptions of people. So as a certain ideal gains favor it probablity of proving true increases because more mental power is being tasked into making it happen.

Not only that but this effect would also keep us quite in the dark about our power. The idvidual effect is limited, whats more is that it would be drowned out by what ever is the most common perception. It would take quite the feat to overthrow the pressure of so many minds and thus the power if the individual is surpressed yet allowed to exercise greater power in the long run. I submit that reality is a democracy of the mind where competing ideals with enough backing can evidence themselves and thus gain power and credance. In this system any perception or take on reality with enough force asserts itself on reality and by doing so manifest more evidence which converts more minds. It's a runway snowball and it could mean that early mistakes of man might have had effects that no one will ever know or dream possible.

Thoughts?

Edit: Damn my head hurts now.

So... what you're saying is that the universe really IS like what they say in Mage: The Ascension?

That... That requires thinking that I'm far from prepared for.

I'd be willing to suggest that reality could be bent, based on the ways of the Bene Gesserit in Frank Herbert's book "Children of Dune", where with enough patience and training of the senses, one would be able to change the way they control and percieve reality. And I don't mean "The weather looks mighty cloudy today" or "Wow, these pancakes taste good" perception, I mean being able to change the way you see everyone and everything, but in a much more literal sense.

To be able to change the way you see your own hands, being able to change the recieving image from young and youthful, to old and aged however... It'd require a sense of controlling insanity. One could argue that insanity is the basis of reality, but that's too much work. It's much, much easier to take on other theories, like the one up top, or something very similar to The Matrix.

People seem to like theories they can relate to.
That's my theory, anyway. [/senselessbabble]

So, to sum that all up, you're basically saying that our reality is shaped by a collective consciousness that shapes and defines the world we live in?

I sure as hell hope not.

If this were so, then why has not Spiderman started swinging from building to building in the big cities, or Superman flying around saving the planet from random near-disasters that probably wouldn't have happened had Superman not been there anyway. Enough people want those types of heros that if what you say were true, these men could be "created by the collective mind." Or even worse for humanity, if the BM fanboys got there thoughts to manifest, cause we know what would happen if that were possible. I understand that how you view reality will change what you think is going on around you, but let's face it, if Orsen Wells couldn't cause actual aliens to arrive when the entire country was going crazy over the "War of the Worlds", and Tolkien's elves haven't started running around the world, then I doubt what you say could hold any water.

I think what was said was not entirely intended to be taken quite that literally. Rather, for example, people in the United States believe, for the most part, that representative democracy is the way to go. They believe it so damn hard that it works. (Of course, you could argue in this case or any other this may not be the product of the mind manipulating the basis of reality and more people working hard to make a system they believe could work work.)

As for thoughts, I'd say that the model seems to apply pretty well in terms of determining the actions of the horde (of people) and perhaps some of the behaviors of the individual and why some people are unwilling to break away.

I have to ask two questions though: 1) If the masses peer pressure eachother, why can't we agree on a president for example? A possible answer is that our collective mind sees no real difference between them and so really doesn't give a damn. 2) What causes those who think totally out of line with everyone else to be able to do so? Andy Warhol, Picasso, to some extent Einstien thought up these totally off the wall things that worked and were cool, and they certainly weren't guided by the horde's will. (I think...)

Well technomage, you're certainly on the right track... however you've taken the concept of what is perceived as reality a bit too far.

In understanding the nature of the universe around you, you have made two assumptions.

1: That a human has the ability to interact with the universe with their mind..
2: That the reality we perceive can be altered by those interactions.

These are both correct, however, not in the form in which you are thinking. I highly reccommend that you read Schrodingers cat, or the book, Schrodingers kittens. These will further expand upon the concept that: The mind can collapse quantum probability waves by the simple act of observation, and von neuman's catastrophe can be averted by an experimenters simple decision. -- This of course, is all within the realm of quantum theory.

The stone cold fact of the matter, is that there is, a unified field which permeates the universe with a wavelength of 10^-64. The mind, ie. our thoughts, not only interact with, accept, and sent out information on this level, but it is not subject to einstein's special relativity. In other words, the realm with which the mind energetically interacts with the universe (beyond just the electromagnetic field created by the neurons firing and the electric charge built up) is not subject to spatial location. My thoughts, when focused, could have a quantum effect in a location 500,000 light years away, though the EFFECT of my thoughts would not be 'scientifically' verified until the passage of those years. In order to truly understand the nature of the mind, one must advance beyond the simple 'orthodoxical' construction of scientific reality, and recognize certain realms of spiritual pursuit to be true.

The simplest and most important concept that must be recognized is the existence of the astral plane. It's easiest to think of reality as being different Levels of dimensional states, or densities, that are compacted on top of eachother. We are currently residing in the Third Dimension, as all things around us have x,y and z axis, however, the passage of time is linear. It is not 'all encompassing', and we do not see all sides of the 4th dimension at any given point in time. It is for this reason that we are set within the 3rd density. When one meditates, changes the wavelength of their mind, sleeps, or dies, the energetic body separates from the physical hull we find ourselves in, in normal everyday life, and we are no longer set to the limitation of being within a particular location in the 3rd density, on a particular part of the perceptively linear motion of the timeline. Moving upward in density into the Astral, allows one to maneuvre through an area in space where time no longer has flow, but can be manipulated as if it were clay. The lowest levels of the astral are akin to being in dream state. Higher levels of the astral are, quite literally, the realms of the afterlife where people go where they die. The varying levels of the 4th density, and how energy functions in these states, are best described by the Monroe Institute, an organization that set about in pioneering research to define in scientific terms the varying locales in travelling upwards dimensionally.

Ultimately, our consciousness resides 'above' us, and we are looking down, perceiving our own lives through a magnifying glass. The passage of time allows for us to have consciousness, but consciousness is not limited to the perspective of linear time. It is only our Perception which causes that reality to be the case. Ultimately, our mind IS reality, and we are our own gods, far more than the simple observation that our minds can affect quantum probability waves. Even so, without going upwards dimensionally to gain control of the power of our minds, and understanding that our minds have more influence the higher one goes, you are on the right track when you think that the focused thoughts of many individuals can effect reality as a whole. Of course, the RULES of the game cannot be changed (ie. the physical laws of the universe) but the outcome can be altered. In other words, if a computer in colorado was using a random number generator to come up with a color, if several million people focused on the computer with their minds and thought BLUE, the sum total alterations of the quantum probabilities with their minds would effect the outcome of the computer, pushing it towards BLUE. This holds true with the aphorism "The world is what you make it to be." Ultimately, we as a people, are in spiritual control of our world, which is highly ironic, considering we as a people, have no control what so ever, of anything else in our world. I don't mean this because of superdeterminism, or lack of free will, but because the 'reality' of things, and the power structure is so well integrated, that any individual or group of individuals has no real power to control it, or change the way it is set up. All we really can do, is use our collective minds to push the vibration of our own dna upwards, thus increasing the amount of energy our minds put out... pushing through the collapsing of quantum probability waves, our future in a positive direction. The world may not literally be what we make of it, but the outcome is certainly well within our hands. I do believe, that the collective human quantum mind's push and pull on the universe can reach a critical state, whereby when a certain percentage have positively oriented thoughts and higher dna vibrations, this will cause the remainder of the collective to follow suit. Indeed, the thoughts of a few, can effect the actions of the many. Bear this in mind when you attempt to raise the consciousness of others by discussing the nature of reality, and other philosophies. The important thing is not whether or not people agree, or disagree with you... their level of the understanding of the universe is limited to their fragile perception which is the sum total of their live's historical events, as well as the natural level of their spiritual progression. (In this, reincarnation takes an important role). In other words, people will agree or disagree based on themselves not on your argument, or what is truth, or fallacy. The reason then, that one must continue revealing things, or making a point, is that the simple act of putting it forward, puts that energy out into the universe. And if the message, the information, the lack of chaos, in the statements ring true, they will carry with them their own levels of causality, and thus cause the raising of energy states in the long run.

--Zoma

Well I'm not about to go quite that far, I have seperate ideals about the nature of time. To address other questions posed:

1)The reason, Elminster Amaur, the we are not overrun by those things is simple. It takes a powerful faith if you will to cause an actual change in reality. Simple wanting something to happen isn't going to work. It requires an absolute confidence, stemming from the deepest subconcious mind, to effect a change. Besides the vast majority of people keep the world as it is with their thoughts. They have the majority and unwittingly use it to force their views of reality in everyone else. It's hard to generate the faith needed to effect something when it seems the whole world is in opposition. Now thats not to say a few people can't do it, just that it is very hard.

2)This ones simple, Humans can't fully agree on a subject because we like the illusion of choice. Of course we usually just go with what ever faction our personality fits best with and so don't really make our own choices. As long as people have differeing personalities there will be differeing views on some aspects of reality. However, there is a very general concensus about the basic rules of the universe so in a way we all do agree. Of course evidence suggest now that gravity isn't such a constant force as we thought and some of a dearly held rules are simlply approximations. When considering the basic rules of the universe on must remember that there could be billions upon billions of other minds out there effecting the outcome of the equation. Which would make it hard indeed for humans to have a huge effect.

3)This one isn't so hard either. Some minds do have the ability to chose. Rather they are sepreated from the pressure and so immune to most of its effects. It has to do with the personality of the person more than anything. Just like some people are born to lead some are born to think outside the box of society. I never ment to say it was impossible to think contrary to the masses just not very easy unless you were a person of unique abilities or a victim of unusual events.

But why leave it here? If we accept the theory of multiple universes, then every crazy man is sane, only happens to have a double in the wrong universe. All undisproven theories are correct, all gods exist. Its only when you let the cat out of the box that you find out which universe you happen to be in and whether or not you're wrong or right.

Although the line of reasoning is interesting (and complex >.>) I'm of the mind that preception is a very internal thing. And peer preasure has really only been observed to have effect when made manifest in some form of external communication such as speach, gestures, visual aids, and the like. The same with altering people's opinions or thoughts through the power of suggestion.

The Brain is indeed a powerful tool, and we are FAR from understanding it completly. But mass telepethy on a physics changing level just doesn't hold a lot of water, esspecially when there are perfectly reasonable and some (but not all) obserable causes for behavior in human and animal minds, and in the physical laws of the universe.

I'd argue that any "Illusion-made-real" of reality would be from one mind, if anything.