I'm not quoting anything...when you write in another language you italicize.
What game were you thinking of?

It is true that the media and a small amount of what could be called 'mass paranoia' fan the flames of fear and distrust, but unfortunatly, thats a cycle that was insigated by the initial negative action (i.e. crime).

The fact that a crime was committed which affected oneself does tend to make someone think about the bad stuff that goes on in the world though. I think this is permissable, and I don't think he meant that 'this happened to me' = 'the world suxorz my clucksorz'.

You say in here that the crime rate is high where you live, but since nothing has happened to YOU (yet, if I might remind you. And I hope you are very careful with yourself in this area) its 'not that bad'. Doesn't that seem a bit similar to what you thought Thanatos was saying (I mean in the nature of the argument)? I can understand that there are varying viewpoints on how bad crime is, but you've got to have a better reason that 'media hypes everything' and ' stuff doesn't happen to me'. I'm almost sure there's a logical fallacy in there.

Enough change to the nature and structure of a government or group seems equivilant to a 'fall' from its former state, at least in my opinion. Esspecially if the change is fueled by something strong and quick like a revolution or a war. Sure, the people themselves remain in tact (eh... well, survivors anyway) and people in general will always be the same on an independant level... But the structure of everything from government to social values can and does change. The irony in that is that whatever mistakes led to a change are either repeated or avioded in 'favor' of other mistakes that lead us full circle.

And no, not every empire or government has fallen... yet. America still exists, too. But this is all much like the fact that you have not been mugged/raped/robbed yet. It does not mean that it will not happen, and if you put yourself in a position where the probability of it increases... It very well could.

Kissenger's quote might be interpreted this way; change leads to more change, so yes society 'evolves', but into what? So far, more of the same as we've observed in the past, just with higher frame rate and faster modes of transportation. :bmage:

Well, yes. But the introduction of the gangster lifestyle actually occured much earlier last century than the introduction of 'hip-hop' culture. You want to talk about brutal? This 'gangsta rap' image is kid stuff compared with what happened in the REAL mafia.

But your point is well taken. I hope that rap is on its way out... but not just becuase of that. 'Pop' in any form is so... bleh. You feel me?

'Is society getting better or worse?'

You're right. It is difficult to be objective, becuase a lot of things come into play. Historical Accuracy, Personal Expiriences, Personal Belifes (religious or otherwise).

I think the person with a critical eye might wonder how many times we will screw up before we get it right... whereas an optomistic person might see us in a very progressive chain of events, although not yet progressed. Total 'glass half empty/full scenario'.

Sessh: Your conscience is by no means a universal or natural law. Your conscience is affected by your belief system and belief systems are mutable. You're disturbed by evil and antisocial acts. Fair enough. But that does not make them wrong by universal standards, it merely makes them wrong by your personal standards. Depending on what those standards are, it may also be considered wrong by others, but it violates no natural or universal law. Hell, if a rock floated upward one day, THAT would violate universal law, the law of gravity, but if said rock were used to bash someone's skull in, it would be a moral matter and out of the context of universal law.

In the first place this topic's gotten FAR out of hand. Just because someone steals your wallet doesn't mean society is bad, it means one guy is bad. It'll happen in any society because you made yourself a target of opportunity and any immoral opportunist would take it. And why would people be immoral? Desperation. When you're hungry and have bills to pay, it's very easy to justify whatever you deem fit to yourself. Hell, I've done it a few times myself. Hunger can change your moral perspective in a hurry.

Yeah I know it's not like the real mafia...that was part of my point I didn't really get around to so thanks for bring it up...

Also I remembered something I read in the news paper the other day...
Some compony is creating a TCG based on the gangsta lifestyle...
the cards the specifically mentioned were:

Get a gun: 5 points
Do a Drive by: 8 points
Read a Book: -3 points

Now they're teaching kids to not read...that's just fantastic!

And yeah I'm gonna go with Dante on that other point
Read a book
called: Stranger in a Strange Land By Robert Hienlien
It will show you one way of what could happen if a person was thrust in to Earth's culture would react.

Trust me it's worth loosing 3 points to read it :-p

Love,
DBS

I was sort of making this argument, my point wasn't that crime doesn't exist, or negative events don't happen - but the media changes our preception of how much it is happening and to what severity - so people believe the world is getting worse, but whether or not it is... is irrelevent.


Regarding the "hip-hop - gangster rap" effect on the nation, well I disagree with it's patriarchical materialistic bullshit, among other things. However I believe that poverty is usually the source of crime, people become prostitutes, theives, drug dealers, ect. more out of a need for money than out of personal enjoyment in doing it. While the hip-hop/rap culture may painfully glorify such actions it isn't at the root of why it is happening, poverty is, but it ALWAYS has. This isn't new... just it was less emphisized in music culture in the past as such lifestyles weren't talked about in music.


I disagree that things were ever as good as people seem to believe them to be in the past, a brief look at history will tell you that people weren't any kinder or more gentle than they are today. I don't lock my doors at night, I don't fear being raped - is this illogical - there is always that posibility that I could be, or robbed... but I don't feel the fear nor desire to lock myself in a brick fortress.


In conclusion i'll leave you with these classic latin words - Cogito Ergo Sum - literally translated, pizza taste good on toast.

[QUOTE=Nikkoru]However I believe that poverty is usually the source of crime, people become prostitutes, theives, drug dealers, ect. more out of a need for money than out of personal enjoyment in doing it.


I'm glad you brought up poverty. I live Northern Virginia (rated thrid worst area for gang violence in the US, after LA and Chicago), and I think poverty, combined with lack of policing and pampering of criminals, is whats leading to the rise in violence. With more of our countries money being controlled by fewer individuals, and the government favoring the rich more and more, the poor are taking unto themselves to protect themselves. The police mostly spend their time patrolling the pockets of upper-class people, arresting every suspicious (read: black or hispanic) person they can find, which keeps them too busy to drive through the bad neighborhoods. With police protection gone, the few people in every society that are only stopped from raping, pillaging, and murder by fear of prison, can have a field day on innocent civilians. Even when they are arrested, prisons today are getting to be more and more pleasant, to the point where they're sometimes better than people's lives. Think about it- free premium cable, 3 warm meals a day, weight rooms and basket ball courts, and if a guard touches you, you can sue him for everything his entire extended family will every be worth? Sounds great, doesn't it!? But back to my previous topic- someone gets everything they own stolen buy some waste of protein and the police don't help, their going to help themselves, and those who don't are so scared and depressed by the crime around them they turn to drugs to escape. And as we all know, unless you're rich, drugs quickly force you to turn to crime to support your habit. It so profitable people are willing to kill, to die, to get a slice of it. Then you have drug-gang warfare, were innoccent bistanders are killed more often than the targets. With families losing loved children or the family breadwinner, they turn to- you guessed it- drugs and crime. Its a vicious cycle, and one that news agencies and politicians exploit and worsen for their own gain.

Sorry to be so long winded, I just got rolling and couldn't stop. I, personally, live in one of the quieter areas, but its getting worse ever day. I've got a guy who is obviously a drug dealer 3 doors down from me, and last year some MS13 gangbangers moved in next door. Luckily, there are no other gangs infringing on their 'turf' (yet), but I won't be supprised when the crime-drugs-violence merry-go-round starts on my block.

Peace and love forever. Or, failing that, make sure there aren't any kids in
your line of fire,
The Notoriuos BEN

Just as a clarification, I wasn't trying to say he immediately thought the world sucked becuase it happened, jsut bringing up a point that a lot of people don't even consider the crime rate or anything until it effects them personally or a close one. Also, my statement about Dallas, I was trying to more point out that the media over inflates the dangers of an area. Compared to other areas, Dallas does ahve a rather high crime rate, but its nowhere near as bad as the news and other media's make it seem. You can't turn on the local news without a mention of at least one "shooting" that is "gang related." What actually happened, a guy got mugged, and punched. Does that mean that shootings never happen? No, jsut not near as often as everyone hears about.

And while I do agree that poverty may very well be the cause of several crimes, I must say that a lot of people go into 'that business' for the power that they think they'll get. A lot of people have a the mind set that if they go buy a pound of *insert drug here* and contiue selling it, and repeat, that they will soon move up the ranks, and soon be making millions of dollars by doing nothing, except threatening to kill people and giving their drugs to other people to sell to all the adicts. And that any time they coudl get caught, they'll have so much "street cred" that no one on the inside would even consider touching them... Man people are stupid some times

And CrazyBen... go get yourself a shotgun, and some landmines, and prepare for war, and may *insert religious figure* have mercy on your soul.

In my oppinion society doesn't suck or own of it's own accord. It's the people living in it that make it what it is. granted, the way people are brought up and what they are brought up seeing and believing does affect them as people, their is also the natural personality of a person. Now I'm no phsycologist (not even sure I can spell it right) but it seems to me that there are more people willing to jump on the band wagon now then their were before. The majority of people feel more secure with a man or woman in charge that they can follow without having to worry about the bigger picture. This human tendency plus the fact that rappers who talk about violence and how they kill people are always on TV does cause alot of people to act like assholes. But their are still other people who don't act like assholes at all and still are subjected to the same stuff as people who are assholes. My point is that maybe the basic tempering of people has moved more towards hatred and "bad" feelings than "good" feelings like trust and honesty. or I could be completely wrong and the temperament of a person has nothing to do with it at all.

And that's the problem I have. Why I asked had society lost its empathy. Empathy is an ability to relate to another persons emotions. "I have no money, I feel awful. But if I still this persons wallet s/he will have no money. That would only place them in the same situation I am." Because of where and when the theft took place, the odd are extremely high I personally know the person who took my wallet. Given this, the individual will probably know my financial status (i.e. that's all the money I had). Secondly, they also know that I'm the kind of person, that had they asked, I would have loaned them whatever I could, or just out right given it to them.
Plus, desperation is no excuse for theft on that scale. A loaf of bread from someone who has plenty to feed your starving family is one thing, but stealing that loaf from a starving family to feed yourself is different. I have been in desperate situations where i had no money, no place to live, and nothing to eat. Never once however did I still from someone where it would place them in my same situation. A man dropped a $100 bill in front of me, and I gave it back to him. the man gave me $50 for my honesty.
I lost $140 that night, because I made a mistake, and someone took advantage of that fact. My car had no gas that night, and my refrigerator was empty. I have not gone hungry all week, and my car hasn't ran out of gas. Because I can still count on a few people who aren't lacking in Empathy. The fact that many of you showed concern, has also helped me to answer my question: there is empathy out there. Perhaps it took being a victim to show me society isn't as bad as it seems.

Wow, beautiful. I was all set to post my explanation, and you blew me outta the water.

Its that simple, we dont KNOW if these are trends. Media coverage is exploding so fast that its hard to tell if X is increasing, or if simply more reporters are getting to X. And lord knows our history is less than 100% accurate.

But I do feel a change that people dont even want to be good members of society anymore. Before it was selfish competition, but now its meaningless sabatoge. In college I saw countless acts of destruction and theft, not for revenge, not for gain (most of the stolen stuff were promplty thrown away) but just for 'fun'. It has nothing to do with race, but people really into this Hip Hop trend feel its cool to do shitty things, and doing them impresses chicks. I saw an MTV add once where theyre showing off how cool they are, and buzz words were flying around in the background and one was "i like to steal". Its just soo cool.