[Geminex]

Gem, if you really want to be being part of the "balancing process", you should be reading the entire thing, not skimming it and only reading sections.

Read balancing discussions? Yes. Probably. See below for further details.
But read 2 pages' worth of semi-relevant (at best) bickering and insults which MAY OR MAY NOT contain anything of actual interest?
Fuck that and the horse it rode in on.

I was responding to Gem saying that Overblades have Double Attack, since I thought he changed his mind on that.

Nnnoooo, I just wasn't aware that anyone had agreed with me for once. Fuck Double Attack.

That is explictively targetting people who multi-class despite the fact that multi-classing means that the growth to higher power is slower and the maximum height is never reached to begin with! Multi-classing has its own advantage and disadvantages and Gem is seemingly listing disadvantages that aren't actually there! Renny is supposably going to be the character with the most level of slayer, according to what you guys are saying about how many levels of demon you hope to take. So why is the one level of pokebrid such a damning factor? So much that you opt that the upgrade that was proposed to be a suitable replacement for Double Attack should be denied to the person who intend to invest the most in the class in the first place on the very basis of too much variety? The fact that the pokebrid is effectively being played like a sub-level of Slayer due to the proposed using boosted pokemon moves as Slayer attacks seemed to have gone amiss too.

Sure it has its advantages. Growth is slower, yes. But there's nobody saying "YOU CAN'T PUT 10 LEVELS INTO ONCE CLASS AND SPREAD THE OTHERS EVENLY ACROSS TRAINER, SLAYER AND POKEBRID". Cause that's what you could do. Bam, maximum height. And you get way more variety for it. And I'm not saying that all multi-classers must now BUUUURN IN THE FIRES OF THE NETHERWORLD (though it's got a good ring to it, I need to remember that...). I'm saying that this particular situation makes multi-classers stronger than they should be.
Look, when you multi-class, you don't suddenly get extra stats. You can't suddenly carry extra items. You don't gather extra rage. You get extra actions sometimes, but those are exceptions. Why should you get extra actions now?

>_> I said additive. Did you read what I said properly? Who am I kidding? Of course you didn't. Firstly, Mollesk's defense is based on a preexisting pokemon, as opposed to the slayers whose stats are difficult to measure (especially compounded if I go Pokebrid which have modified stats of their own). Secondly, Cosmic Power and Simple are Multiplicative. They actually have relatively easily measurable boosts because it's easy to say something is twice as powerful or twice as weak as normal. Saying something is 15 points higher is... not as easy to imagine.
AB, as far as I know, doesn't use math or formulas a whole lot when dealing with combat resolution, but rather a lot of guesstimating the overall effect. Things like Twice as much, Half as Much, or *applying a specific effect* actually tends to be included in his synopsis, especially because it is easier to grasp. Things that are "minor" and "hard to add up mentally" like leftovers and trainer attacks are not included except in very rare instances and usually only when they are concentrated. My argument here is that the 15 point boost falls in this "minor" camp and thus is not a significant bonus. And the reason for debating that point is because it determines whether the extra accessory slot on level 3 is too much DESPITE the fact that accessories was suggested and agreed on as a suitable replacement for Double Attack.

That point is moot. You say you think AB disregards that sort of thing, I disagree. +15 to all stats is a pretty massive boost, honestly. Saying that AB disregards that is like saying that he'd see a pokemon with 100 in all stats as equal in power to one with 115. Sounds kinda stupid, honestly. Sure, he guesstimates, it's not exact. But the higher the stats, the more likely his "guesstimate" is to give a result in your favor. Unless you say he ignores it, it's definitely relevant. And if you think he ignores it utterly then you should be putting HEY AB STOP IGNORING +15 STATS BOOSTS in orange and posting it every chance you get.

There seems to be an empty void where Double Attack and Accessories was in that level.

+15 to all stats. That is a lot, even if you'd prefer us to believe that that isn't the case. And hell, nobody ever said there wouldn't be a replacement, we're just saying that this isn't the right one. I've even suggested one. Like, that orange bit in my previous post? The one where I talk about making accessories cheaper now and then buffing them later? Yeah. That was, y'know, supposed to be the buff.
Also, what the fuck? "No reason given why"? I'd adivse that you read my posts more carefully. It doesn't make sense for multi-classing to give extra power, only more variety (except, like I said, in certain exceptions). This is not one such exception. So take the variety, stop whining about the power.
Cause right now you're playing the victim, and you're anything but.

This is sounding VERY GOOD right about now, just so there isn't that nonsense about specific upgrades being proposed at arbitary levels and how it would effect other players too while still enabling character freedom, more or less. I would vote in favor of this.

Look, I explained this already. Conditions:
1: Based on existing abilities and classes (no inventing new classes, try to re-use old abilities if you can, but don't be afraid to come up with new abilities if nothing's been proposed yet that suits you)
2: Characters must be roughly equal in power throughout their development

Other than that, total freedom.
Seriously, everything you people are agreeing to is stuff I already said. Is that it? Does everything I propose need 1-2 threads to actually sink in (5 in AB's case) before someone goes "Hey, this is actually a good idea!"?

Why are you saying Primary class again? I already explained why that is a no-no. I thought we agreed that it's basically we choose one respective action that we gained access to regardless of how many levels of our class we got.

Yes, that's what I said. Or what I meant, in any case.
You get one action as trainer. You use that action to use trainer actions. Later you can also use it to use Pokebrid actions. But you aren't actually getting any extra actions. Since accessory slots take the place of the trainer/pokebrid action, you shouldn't get an extra accessory slot either.

Also, stop whining about paradigm shift giving you rage problems. You don't want rage problems, you don't put a single level into a rage-specific class.
YOU DO NOT, FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, START MODIFYING THE UPGRADE SYSTEM TO SUIT YOUR NEEDS.

If you look back some posts, I was referring to Post #82 where Gem was saying that accessories should be at level 4 because Double Attack was there. Then I responded saying I was fine with that change, since hell, he was the one saying it and Double Attack is cool! It was afterwards around Post #90 when he changed his mind AND added other nerfs to it.

Ok. This. Fucking. Stops. Now.
When we reach the point where we are quoting posts BY NUMBER, we have gone too far. Like, seriously. Way, way too far. Everyone. Take a step back. Consider. What the fuck are we doing here?
I like discussions. But they don't always have to be so fucking LONG!
Seriously, it's possible to say what you want to say in 25 words or less! I guarantee! Just try it!
Honestly, Menarker you tell me I should read everything that's written if I really want to participate in balancing, and then you go on to write a great big long post that nobody could reasonably expect anyone else to read through totally. Seriously.
I know this may be a pot-kettle-black situation, but even then. Let's all just try to write less. And be less officious about this sort of thing. And maybe even start taking it less seriously.

I was fine with that, but then his explaination was that too much variety was a bad thing and that triple classing made it worse and THAT was why he opted to put 4th upgrade higher on the scale. If that wasn't what he meant, then he explained very poorly indeed.

Or, y'know, you just misunderstood me. Cause that wasn't what I meant at all. Look, I explained it again in my previous post. Look it up.

It's pretty hard to find the balance with all the Balance Wars between Menarker, Dracorian, and Geminex. I know they mean well (Gem and Men, anyways) but it's difficult to keep up with all myself.

So end them. I've suggested it before, you haven't actually replied that vehemently to it.
Let us customize everything from level 5 onwards. We base what we do on the templates you've made. We'll be able to do what we want with our characters, I'll take care of the balancing, and by the time we're done, we'll be better for it. It'll be easier than balancing the upgrade system. And more fun, certainly. Come on.