Chinese food opening

Kaifung · 02-01-2007, 01:36 AM

I have enjoyed 8-bit theatre since the beginning and have always loved the news rant that's posted with every new comic. However, the current "letter" got to me. At first I thought it was amusing, a bit of antagonistic humor. But I found myself to be more and more offended as I read on. Perhaps offended is a bit strong, more like a bit put off. Calling us damned little heathens didn't even have anything to do with the writer's negative experience with chinese cuisine. That is simply calling us uncivilized and uncultured with no reason for the attack.

In general, Herb showed incredible audacity in connecting a bad american-chinese restaurant dining experience with "real" chinese food. I am not even attempting to imply that everyone should like chinese food, but to imply that an entire race's culinary arts is inferior and somehow purposefully harmful to westerners is just too much. It is obvious that Herb has not really tried to understand chinese cuisine which is tied in very deeply with our culture. I will try to explain some of the remarks the author has made.

The bone with the "barest scrap of meat" is an overstatement, but the meat around bones is considered one of the best parts. It is always the most flavorful due to the high amount of nutrients that come from the bone itself and are cooked into the meat. He was probably offered it as a gesture of friendship.

Cow vertebra, or rather Ox Tail, is a delicacy that has roots in the imperial court. It is usually a dish that must be carefully cooked for a full day at minimum. Even europeans, specifically the portugese, have enjoyed ox tail stews, so it is not something to be disgusted by.

I don't even think a pork and celery (the celery part is off) dumpling really is a chinese dumpling. It seems more like something a chef may have thrown together to please an American pallet. A true chinese dumpling would be something like a "siu long bao" (little dragon bun would be an approximate translation). A thin skinned round dumpling filled with piping hot, rich broth with a center of pork, lamb, or seafood (usually pork). One bites a small hole in the dumpling and drinks the soup inside before eating the dumpling.

That "reddish" stuff on bread is dried pork. Similar to american beef jerkey. And the hairs he refers to are NOT actual hairs. It is just that this dried pork is pulled much more finely and dried more completely than jerkey which gives it a thinner almost soft texture.

And yes, chinese bread IS cooked. It is just unlike western bread as less yeast is used since eastern cultures tend to enjoy more chewy bread.

GanBei, as Herb says it, has a social meaning more similar to "to your health" when drinking. While it is polite to drain the cup when another person buys you a drink, if you truely have had enough, the correct thing to do would be to take a sip but keep the cup full. Then it will be taken that you appreciate the drink, but do not wish for more. Completely drinking it all is taken as saying, "this is nothing, bring it on".

I can't understand why this person would choose to work in the heart of mainland China with such obvious lack of understanding of the chinese and a seemingly closed mind when it comes to their culture and food. I have enjoyed food from many different cultures and I cannot say that I have loved all of it, but with an open mind, one can always find something to like and should never simply condemn a people's way of life.

thanks for listening

Meister · 02-01-2007, 04:49 AM

I thoroughly enjoyed Herb's writing as a piece of humour, not as serious criticism of Chinese cuisine. I really do hope it wasn't meant to be, either, because this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaifung

I can't understand why this person would choose to work in the heart of mainland China with such obvious lack of understanding of the chinese and a seemingly closed mind when it comes to their culture and food.

is true. Still, I took it as poking fun at the issue, not a serious rant. From then on it's a matter of taste.

Mannix · 02-01-2007, 05:50 AM

I myself have lived in Korea for about 3 years, so I have some familiarity on the subject of living in a culture compeletely and totally alien to what I grew up in. I totally love Koreans and living in Korea, but that doesn't mean there aren't things that I don't find confusing, irritating, or outright mind boggling. I expect he was less being racist and more expressing his difficulty in assimilating to a culture that has no seeming rhyme or reason contrasted to what I am going to assume is the white middle class environment he may have grown up in. No amount of cultural understanding is going to make some of the kind of stuff you experience deep in the heart of a totally foreign land any less mind boggling or exhasperating. Additionally, I'm sure there was some exaggeration for comedic effect.

Kaifung · 02-01-2007, 08:37 AM

In all honesty, I'm sure Mannix and Meister are probabably correct. I do see the humor in the letter and I did try to read it as just a comedic exaggeration, it IS fairly funny. I just felt in the back of my mind that something was not on the level. I suppose that my initial comments were more me trying to vent my frustration about not being able to pin down my uncomfortable feeling about the letter. It was funny but something was wrong.

42PETUNIAS · 02-01-2007, 08:59 AM

wait, do chinese people actually make foreigners drink until they pretty much pass out? I noticed you dealt a bit with the food that he didn't like, but not at all with the LaoWai, or the playing games with foreigners.

Mannix · 02-01-2007, 09:02 AM

I understand how you feel Kaifung. It's like watching the protests here against whatever the US has 'done' this time. The protesters don't nessisarily hate America, even though the chanting etc sure is hard to watch calmly sometimes. Like Chinese cuisine, it's something that's near and dear and thus hard to watch somebody speak ill of even in jest. I totally feel what you mean, you just want people to not get the wrong idea because of the rant.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 42PETUNIAS

wait, do chinese people actually make foreigners drink until they pretty much pass out? I noticed you dealt a bit with the food that he didn't like, but not at all with the LaoWai, or the playing games with foreigners.

Different cultures have different ways of showing that one wants to stop. The guy's Chinese hosts are looking for cues that he isn't giving off, and so assume that he wants more. Not giving somebody more when they want more would be rude and inhospitible. Just because he thinks he's clearly saying he's done, doesn't mean its so clear to the people buying him drinks. Its more or less the same in Korea. There are things we all take for granted as good ettiquette, but very few of them are universal. He'd do good to ask one of his Chinese friends what Chinese people do when they don't want more, and then do it.

42PETUNIAS · 02-01-2007, 09:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaifung

In general, Herb showed incredible audacity in connecting a bad american-chinese restaurant dining experience with "real" chinese food.

It was my understanding that Herb wasn't attempting to show that Chinese food is like bad american restaurants, but that what we get in the United States is completly different from real chinese food, which is, in his opinion, much worse.

vallaugh · 02-01-2007, 01:51 PM

I just read Herb's comments and I certainly hope he's just being funny. Still, I have to say that there are food outside of chinese cuisine that are just as different. Blood pudding? Cow brain burger (yes, they serve that somewhere in Indiana IIRC), scrapple anyone? Pork skin... those are Pork rinds. Meat on a bone? hello drumstick, what, you never had babyback ribs?

As Kaifung mentioned, oxtail? I see that being sold at the Whole foods hot food buffet. What are you some wimp who can't stand to know where your meat comes from?

Rancid week old fish? Oh c'mon, you ever heard of some Icelandic specialties? S�rsa�ir hr�tspungar, the cured scrota of rams, including testicles; K�stur h�karl, rotten shark; Svi�, singed sheep head. Just because the chinese cuisine has something you're not used to does not mean that they're the only ones.

Some of the food they have you trying, some of the more exotic stuff is probably for a reason. They wanted you try some of the more exotic stuff which are not always the norm, why? Because it's a treat and they wanted to show you something special and different because they don't always eat them themselves. It's kinda like how we might take friends to the some of the specialty local stuff in the area when they're visiting.

Herb, if you're reading this, go on down to Hong Kong, at least they'll have a lot more variety, like non-chinese food, if you're not so adventurous. And I know you know about the rail system from Hong Kong to Shenzen, I've taken it back in '99, it should still be there. ;-)

Drinking toasts, oh c'mon, they're buying you a shot. So they're a bit too enthusiastic, but then again Herb sounds like he's too polite to stop at the drinking. If you had enough, you've had enough. No more, no less, that you drained the cup means you can go for more. You should see the scene in a chinese wedding banquet, the bride and groom would visit every table and there's a toast at each one. Traditionally, the couple would be hammered at the end, especially for a large banquet. So don't think it's only for foreigners that there are drinking games.

I do have to agree with Herb with some of the other cultural differences that I noticed when I was there, but I view it as being different as opposed to my own upbringing.

42PETUNIAS · 02-01-2007, 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Herb

"WaiGuoRen" or "LaoWai" here: Meaning, respectively, "Outsider" and, essentially, "Person from another culture that we've been told is equal to our own but which everybody knows is in fact lower than dirt." Seriously, next time you see a Chinese person, call them LaoWai (Wai is pronounced like Why). See how they react.).

Yeah, so at my boarding school, there are about 15 kids from hong kong, (not quite china, I know, but close) and I called a few of them laowai, and they didn't know what it meant. None of them knew what it meant (of course, most of them had only spent a few years there.) Considering that it was Hong Kong, and none of them had been there that long, that doesn't prove too much, but it still shows that laowai cant be that bad of an insult.

Kaifung · 02-01-2007, 04:56 PM

Mannix: That's it. you pretty much nailed my feeling. Not really angry, more perturbed.

42PETUNIAS: Vallaugh explained the drinking bit well. It's not like a mean spirited game simply for foreigners, more like extending friendship. It's just polite to give a guest, especially from far away, as much as they can drink. When I go back to Hong Kong or China, old friends and relatives will often offer massive quantities of alcohol, but it's not like one can't refuse. I simply have one or two and then leave the glass full. Not about forcing anyone drink, just giving them as much as they want.

About laowai, I don't really know what that means. But then again, I'm originally from Hong Kong so I don't speak much mandarin, only cantonese. Especially with Sechuan having their own slightly different dialect. But if it is anything like our word for foreigner or caucasian, it is not an insult. Herb just thinks that it is an insult because he is using it in the wrong context. The people he calls laowai are probably angry from confusion since they probably think that he is trying to insult them somehow. It is like if I was not able to speak any english and went up to a white american and randomly called him a foreigner. Now being foreigner is not bad and it is not an insult, but the randomness of an non-english speaking immigrant calling a person that may confuse him and make him think that there is an implied insult.

02-01-2007, 01:36 AM	#1
Kaifung Goomba Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 18	Chinese food opening I have enjoyed 8-bit theatre since the beginning and have always loved the news rant that's posted with every new comic. However, the current "letter" got to me. At first I thought it was amusing, a bit of antagonistic humor. But I found myself to be more and more offended as I read on. Perhaps offended is a bit strong, more like a bit put off. Calling us damned little heathens didn't even have anything to do with the writer's negative experience with chinese cuisine. That is simply calling us uncivilized and uncultured with no reason for the attack. In general, Herb showed incredible audacity in connecting a bad american-chinese restaurant dining experience with "real" chinese food. I am not even attempting to imply that everyone should like chinese food, but to imply that an entire race's culinary arts is inferior and somehow purposefully harmful to westerners is just too much. It is obvious that Herb has not really tried to understand chinese cuisine which is tied in very deeply with our culture. I will try to explain some of the remarks the author has made. The bone with the "barest scrap of meat" is an overstatement, but the meat around bones is considered one of the best parts. It is always the most flavorful due to the high amount of nutrients that come from the bone itself and are cooked into the meat. He was probably offered it as a gesture of friendship. Cow vertebra, or rather Ox Tail, is a delicacy that has roots in the imperial court. It is usually a dish that must be carefully cooked for a full day at minimum. Even europeans, specifically the portugese, have enjoyed ox tail stews, so it is not something to be disgusted by. I don't even think a pork and celery (the celery part is off) dumpling really is a chinese dumpling. It seems more like something a chef may have thrown together to please an American pallet. A true chinese dumpling would be something like a "siu long bao" (little dragon bun would be an approximate translation). A thin skinned round dumpling filled with piping hot, rich broth with a center of pork, lamb, or seafood (usually pork). One bites a small hole in the dumpling and drinks the soup inside before eating the dumpling. That "reddish" stuff on bread is dried pork. Similar to american beef jerkey. And the hairs he refers to are NOT actual hairs. It is just that this dried pork is pulled much more finely and dried more completely than jerkey which gives it a thinner almost soft texture. And yes, chinese bread IS cooked. It is just unlike western bread as less yeast is used since eastern cultures tend to enjoy more chewy bread. GanBei, as Herb says it, has a social meaning more similar to "to your health" when drinking. While it is polite to drain the cup when another person buys you a drink, if you truely have had enough, the correct thing to do would be to take a sip but keep the cup full. Then it will be taken that you appreciate the drink, but do not wish for more. Completely drinking it all is taken as saying, "this is nothing, bring it on". I can't understand why this person would choose to work in the heart of mainland China with such obvious lack of understanding of the chinese and a seemingly closed mind when it comes to their culture and food. I have enjoyed food from many different cultures and I cannot say that I have loved all of it, but with an open mind, one can always find something to like and should never simply condemn a people's way of life. thanks for listening

02-01-2007, 05:50 AM	#3
Mannix Tenacious C Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 991	I myself have lived in Korea for about 3 years, so I have some familiarity on the subject of living in a culture compeletely and totally alien to what I grew up in. I totally love Koreans and living in Korea, but that doesn't mean there aren't things that I don't find confusing, irritating, or outright mind boggling. I expect he was less being racist and more expressing his difficulty in assimilating to a culture that has no seeming rhyme or reason contrasted to what I am going to assume is the white middle class environment he may have grown up in. No amount of cultural understanding is going to make some of the kind of stuff you experience deep in the heart of a totally foreign land any less mind boggling or exhasperating. Additionally, I'm sure there was some exaggeration for comedic effect. __________________ Dangerous, mute lunatic.

02-01-2007, 08:59 AM	#5
42PETUNIAS helloooo! Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: The Court Posts: 2,816	wait, do chinese people actually make foreigners drink until they pretty much pass out? I noticed you dealt a bit with the food that he didn't like, but not at all with the LaoWai, or the playing games with foreigners. __________________ noooo! why are you doing that?!

02-01-2007, 08:37 AM	#4
Kaifung Goomba Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 18	In all honesty, I'm sure Mannix and Meister are probabably correct. I do see the humor in the letter and I did try to read it as just a comedic exaggeration, it IS fairly funny. I just felt in the back of my mind that something was not on the level. I suppose that my initial comments were more me trying to vent my frustration about not being able to pin down my uncomfortable feeling about the letter. It was funny but something was wrong.

02-01-2007, 01:51 PM	#8
vallaugh Goomba Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 4	I just read Herb's comments and I certainly hope he's just being funny. Still, I have to say that there are food outside of chinese cuisine that are just as different. Blood pudding? Cow brain burger (yes, they serve that somewhere in Indiana IIRC), scrapple anyone? Pork skin... those are Pork rinds. Meat on a bone? hello drumstick, what, you never had babyback ribs? As Kaifung mentioned, oxtail? I see that being sold at the Whole foods hot food buffet. What are you some wimp who can't stand to know where your meat comes from? Rancid week old fish? Oh c'mon, you ever heard of some Icelandic specialties? S�rsa�ir hr�tspungar, the cured scrota of rams, including testicles; K�stur h�karl, rotten shark; Svi�, singed sheep head. Just because the chinese cuisine has something you're not used to does not mean that they're the only ones. Some of the food they have you trying, some of the more exotic stuff is probably for a reason. They wanted you try some of the more exotic stuff which are not always the norm, why? Because it's a treat and they wanted to show you something special and different because they don't always eat them themselves. It's kinda like how we might take friends to the some of the specialty local stuff in the area when they're visiting. Herb, if you're reading this, go on down to Hong Kong, at least they'll have a lot more variety, like non-chinese food, if you're not so adventurous. And I know you know about the rail system from Hong Kong to Shenzen, I've taken it back in '99, it should still be there. ;-) Drinking toasts, oh c'mon, they're buying you a shot. So they're a bit too enthusiastic, but then again Herb sounds like he's too polite to stop at the drinking. If you had enough, you've had enough. No more, no less, that you drained the cup means you can go for more. You should see the scene in a chinese wedding banquet, the bride and groom would visit every table and there's a toast at each one. Traditionally, the couple would be hammered at the end, especially for a large banquet. So don't think it's only for foreigners that there are drinking games. I do have to agree with Herb with some of the other cultural differences that I noticed when I was there, but I view it as being different as opposed to my own upbringing.

02-01-2007, 04:56 PM	#10
Kaifung Goomba Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 18	Mannix: That's it. you pretty much nailed my feeling. Not really angry, more perturbed. 42PETUNIAS: Vallaugh explained the drinking bit well. It's not like a mean spirited game simply for foreigners, more like extending friendship. It's just polite to give a guest, especially from far away, as much as they can drink. When I go back to Hong Kong or China, old friends and relatives will often offer massive quantities of alcohol, but it's not like one can't refuse. I simply have one or two and then leave the glass full. Not about forcing anyone drink, just giving them as much as they want. About laowai, I don't really know what that means. But then again, I'm originally from Hong Kong so I don't speak much mandarin, only cantonese. Especially with Sechuan having their own slightly different dialect. But if it is anything like our word for foreigner or caucasian, it is not an insult. Herb just thinks that it is an insult because he is using it in the wrong context. The people he calls laowai are probably angry from confusion since they probably think that he is trying to insult them somehow. It is like if I was not able to speak any english and went up to a white american and randomly called him a foreigner. Now being foreigner is not bad and it is not an insult, but the randomness of an non-english speaking immigrant calling a person that may confuse him and make him think that there is an implied insult.