Crimson Echoes

[Jagos]

Yep. Another game was shut down by Square that coulda been a contendah in the modding world. I'm actually checking it out and it looks pretty good. It was supposed to be between Trigger and Cross. I'm checking out the game and liking it so far.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=abUSe...x=0&playnext=1

I'll get back to you all when I finish. But damnit Square, LET these people continue Crono Trigger! You aren't doing ANYTHING with the franchise save squandering chances to let us see a great game. We see Toriyama RIGHT FRIGGIN THERE! Use him and give use a (Crono) Break!

[Dracorion]

Didn't this happen, like, forever ago?

[Kim]

Originally Posted by Dracorion

Didn't this happen, like, forever ago?

Yes, it did, and I am still abso-fucking-lutely delighted that it got shut down. The fewer people convinced that they can become famous video game programmers by writing fanfiction instead of their own damn game, the better.

EDIT: Square is already doing a terrible job trying to tie CT to CC we don't need the fans doing an even worse job.

Originally Posted by Myself on my website

Now, I am pretty much completely opposed to fan games. When Chrono Trigger: Crimson Whatever-the-Fuck got canned because Squeenix sent the makers a cease and desist letter, I was actually happy. Making a game, movie, or book that uses somebody else’s characters to tell your own story is the work of a hack. I don’t care who you are or how long you’ve been working on your Final Fantasy VIII prequel. The moment you decided that you were going to use an established universe and characters to tell whatever fan story you decided would be super duper cool, your game was less for it. Is it possible your game won’t suck? Yes, but it’s about as likely as a game critic getting laid. (For those of you who aren’t game critics, that’s not very damn likely)

[Jagos]

I just found out about it. It happened in May. I just find it odd that they did so much work on it but Square shut it down when it was so near to completion.

The fewer people convinced that they can become famous video game programmers by writing fanfiction instead of their own damn game, the better.

Hmmm... They made a game with an original story... They used music from all over the place (OCRemix), they were fans that were nonprofit with their only mistake being that they hacked the game, used the sprites, and basically used this to continue something that Square has barely touched save for a remake which isn't all that original but put together to link a bad sequel.

Yeah. Big improvement.

-Edit- I'll pass judgement on how CE did with what it had after I watch the entire series. Right now, it seems too much bias against something that still took time to complete.

[Mirai Gen]

Yeah this was a big thing back when it first happened.

I'm kind of in between Noncon's angle and the typical fan reaction, as both sides have equally right points but I honestly don't see the harm in fanwork (or fanwank amirite?), especially since Square Enix seems utterly convinced that making games with either Final Fantasy or Kingdom Hearts in the name is their only profit.

[Kim]

I'm being kind of a dick about it, and for that I apologize. I'm just extremely irritated at this whole thing, and others like it. Reasons:

1. Fanfiction is almost universally terrible. There are exceptions, but they are rare, and so when fans get all excited for a fan game, it's a tad annoying that they're getting all pumped up over fanfiction.

2. They aren't asking money, but they're expecting to profit from their fanfiction in some form, generally in the "Oh hey the guys who made Crimson Echoes are making something else it's gonna be SO COOL AMIRITE?" way. The whole concept of trying to profit off of something someone else did just irks me.

3. If they actually could make a decent CT fan game, with a plot that isn't balls-ass stupid, and I doubt that it wouldn't be since it's trying to tie CT to CC, I am certain that they could make something far better if they weren't so focused on it being a fan game.

[bluestarultor]

I'm actually with Noncon on this. It's Square's IP, with the emphasis on P, as in "property." It's Square's stuff to do with as it pleases. Doing otherwise would be like a guy going and digging up a person's dead pet under the presumption that the owner wasn't using it. Maybe the owner doesn't WANT to use it, hmm?

People feel so entitled these days it's almost nauseating. They feel they "deserve" a game, or "deserve" their fan game, or "deserve" to be able to make a fan game, when the only thing they "deserve" is a whack upside the head and a "what the fuck."

And of course it's bad press for the company as people wave the "stomping on the little guy" flag over it.




Frankly, as a game designer, myself, I can give the honest personal opinion that people who make fan games are misguided at best and at worst are entitled, opportunistic, lazy, and/or just plain sticky-fingered (in the sense they're thieves, not wankers). There's a real stigma against things like decompiling code in the programming industry because it's simply not your work, and I feel the same way about using someone else's other resources, such as graphics, sound, or setting. It's plagiarism, is what it is, only instead of stealing their words, you're stealing their art.

[Mirai Gen]

Originally Posted by bluestarultor

Frankly, as a game designer, myself, I can give the honest personal opinion that people who make fan games are misguided at best and at worst are entitled, opportunistic, lazy, and/or just plain sticky-fingered (in the sense they're thieves, not wankers).

I'm going to chalk this up to Bluespeak and just let this go.

[Nikose Tyris]

Originally Posted by Mirai Gen

I'm going to chalk this up to Bluespeak and just let this go.

Funny enough, I can't.

Originally Posted by Bluespeak

Frankly, as a game designer, myself, I can give the honest personal opinion that people who make fan games are misguided at best and at worst are entitled, opportunistic, lazy, and/or just plain sticky-fingered (in the sense they're thieves, not wankers).

You're not actually a game designer. You know next to nothing about how designing games actually works, and the legitimate designers of games are usually overworked code junkies on teams of 14-25 that have to deal with supervisors that see half-thought ideas online and demand to have them put into a game. People who make fan-games are idealists. People who make Fan-anything usually have a story to tell, and despite being fanfiction, can occasionally be good. [See: Nukleapower.com] I'm going to pretend that your post up there about "Fan games" didn't include Fanfiction of all types, such as the work of Brian Clevinger.

Originally Posted by Bluespeak

There's a real stigma against things like decompiling code in the programming industry because it's simply not your work, and I feel the same way about using someone else's other resources, such as graphics, sound, or setting. It's plagiarism, is what it is, only instead of stealing their words, you're stealing their art.

If by "Stigma" you mean "Standard practice that pretty much everyone does" then you need to look up what Stigma means. Companies recycle code like motherfuckers. Spore, for example? Recycled Harry Potter. I'm not joking at all. It is the exact same engine.



So, if we take it from the angle you brought it in, The Spore Team stole from the Harry Potter team, since they were different devs inside the same company, but didn't write unique code.

[bluestarultor]

Mirai, there's a wee problem with a "tribute" when it comes to games. You can make a tribute to a movie with an AMV, or a tribute to a book by recording a few scenes with some friends acting, but you don't remake the movie or rewrite the book.

The problem here is the media. They were specifically using a media, in fact the SAME media, to create a story. Nobody cares if it was canon. They were using Square's resources. They were creating a product using items that were not theirs to use in the same format as the originals and had a pretty darn high profile. That would be the difference between writing Twilight fanfiction and writing Twilight fanfiction, getting it published, and then distributing copies of it for free in a paperback. The fact of the matter is that so long as it stays on some blog somewhere, nobody cares, because it's not in the same format. It doesn't matter if you give it away for free or not.




If they had chosen to write it as a story, or make a small movie, or do ANYTHING but make it a game, it would have been a non-issue. They didn't, and they knew the risks. I'd personally put that team under the misguided category of my previous statement. They wanted to bridge the gap in the most honest way possible. On the other hand, they realized what might happen and accepted it, which was the most honorable thing they could have done. I really do look up to their honesty and wish them well in future projects. Hopefully, the work they put into that project reflects what they'd be capable of doing an original one, because from what I saw, it was a good product.








Edit: Nik: No, "stigma" is an appropriate word. There's a real disdain for people who decompile code from other programs to use in their own. An engine can be legitimately purchased, and I have NO idea what I said to indicate that programmers didn't recycle code as much as humanly possible. On the other hand, they recycle code they have the legal rights to, or else they'd get sued.

And no, maybe I'm not a "real" game designer, but I'm in the process of designing my own games and can say, personally, that if someone went about mucking around with the resources I've spent the past three years creating, I'd be a wee bit pissed, ESPECIALLY if they used it to create another game. Maybe it's because I'm a small time schmuck, but those resources are mine; I made them. It would be a real kick in the balls if someone just up and stole all my tiles to make another game from. Every last one of them was hand done by me for my own purposes. If I wanted other people to use them, I'd have posted them as a sprite sheet somewhere and been done with it by now.




Edit: And to be specific, no, I have absolutely nothing against fanfiction so long as it's not in the same format. 8-Bit is by no means a video game, so there's no problem with Brian doing it. Conversely, I think Brian would be pretty flattered if someone whipped up a decent Atomic Robo game, as it wouldn't be competing with his market. On the other hand, if someone started up a competing site called 16-Bit Theater and started copying his 8BT comics with 16-bit sprites, I think he'd be rightfully pissed.