Premmy's Big-Long Anti-Racism thread.

[Funka Genocide]

eh it doesn't bother me, I guess it is a bit "Republican" of me as well.

Also, I'm not poor anymore. See I was born poor, then I said fuck that shit and made money.

You can call me ignorant if you wish, however I'm willing to wager that I've seen a bit more than you have, been a few more places and done a few more things. I suppose it's just a matter of perspective though.

I wasn't saying that all poor people are racist, just that being poor lends itself to ignorance and thus racism. And yes, the current state of many minority people living in poverty can be attributed (at least in part) to racial bias and racism in the past. I'm not arguing that fact, what I am arguing is that in the current climate you're far less likely to encounter something like that, and honestly I haven't seen any figures from you to represent your side of the deal, so it's just as much "all CEO's are white supremicists" as my "Work harder brokey."

Basically it's all a lot of feelings derived from whatever experience (probably TV in your case.) without a lot of substance. So I'll tell you what, I will seriously try to do some fact based research on the subject and get back to you, if I prove myself (or am proven) totally wrong I will be big enough to admit it, I mean I'd rather be right of course because if I am right that means people aren't a bunch of horribly racist fucks, but I completely accept the possibility of being totally assbackwards wrong.

I just need a few concrete figures before I jump on the bandwagon, as (you have stated) my experiences in life have shown me that racism isn't a problem if you apply yourself.

[Azisien]

I know this is anecdotal and I don't work for a fortune 500 company, but good luck to the visible minority looking for work who'll be hired by my boss that thinks all visible minorities except Asians are "shady characters."

[Premmy]

Originally Posted by Funka Genocide

I just need a few concrete figures before I jump on the bandwagon, as (you have stated) my experiences in life have shown me that racism isn't a problem if you apply yourself.

Or maybe it's a problem that you have to work twice as hard to get through?

Never said it's Impossible for people of Color to succeed. Just that they have to work twice as hard as to get there, and it sucks.

[DFM]

Originally Posted by Funka Genocide

Basically it's all a lot of feelings derived from whatever experience (probably TV in your case.)

You aren't making this easy for me, Funka.

[Funka Genocide]

Originally Posted by Premonitions

Or maybe it's a problem that you have to work twice as hard to get through?

Never said it's Impossible for people of Color to succeed. Just that they have to work twice as hard as to get there, and it sucks.

I make approximately 15% more than the average college educated American of my age bracket, I am a Mexican. I don't feel I worked harder than anyone else to get here.

Again, I am using anecdotal evidence which is pretty much useless, but you're just spouting random factoids with no proof, making them equally useless.

You started this by saying that it required concerted study and discussion, you should take that into consideration instead of jumping on your bully pulpit before doing some research. (Although it's completely possible you've done research and simply do not wish to share at this point.)

[Premmy]

Originally Posted by Funka Genocide

I(Although it's completely possible you've done research and simply do not wish to share at this point.)

I have, mostly by stealing books from more educated friends of mine, and (Dumb-asses who liked to look educated :P). I'm just trying to get some reputable sources together that can be linked to.
Edit: God-damned internet, any time I get into this, It's usually in real life and I can run to my house and fetch a book to give someone.

[Jagos]

Guys, seriously?

I think everyone needs to watch what's going on and take a chill pill on this thread for a few hours.

Funka, I understand your position. Having been in a position of poverty myself and seen where some of my former classmates are now (dead, snaggletoothed, strung out on drugs...) it's proof that poverty does lead to ignorance. BUT, getting out of a bad situation is that much harder when you don't have the right support around you.

Never said it's Impossible for people of Color to succeed. Just that they have to work twice as hard as to get there, and it sucks.

Very true. There's a lot of different avenues that people can do to create success. Education, military acumen, and stubborn perseverance. When you DO succeed, the victory is that much sweeter.

[McTahr]

It's fine where it is to a certain extent, Jagos, we aren't running a day-care here, but it could definitely use some facts. Anecdotal facts and generalizations do not an argument make.

[Funka Genocide]

Originally Posted by DFM

You aren't making this easy for me, Funka.

I'm sorry if I'm sounding like a dick, but I assure you only like 10% of this is me playing devil's advocate. I understand that racism exists, but building it up to be this iron ceiling and saying that it's entirely based on race (as opposed to class) strikes me as incorrect.

I mean I don't want to play the Obama card but... Yeah that dude is totally black.

In my experience (and I believe I shall be able to substantiate this with further research.) the most racist people are ignorant, poor people. Ignorant poor people do not make hiring policy for fortune 500 companies, in fact they don't do much of anything that affects anyone other than their immediate families. Any reasonably intelligent person (ie: someone in a managerial position at a successful business) will have the knowledge that race does not dictate intelligence or professional aptitude, as this has been unequivocably proven and only an idiot would continue to think that any race of people was genetically inferior. (again, not saying this situation is impossible, just highly unlikely.)

[Solid Snake]

Lately I feel like the personal circumstances of my own life and the lives of those I consider friends and acquaintances around me has blinded me somewhat from the very real existence and prevalence of racism. Growing up in suburbia, for example, led me to meet a number of minorities who seemed perfectly wealthy, well-educated, and content with their lives. I certainly didn't spend much time in urban areas where the demographics were substantially different. But recently, attending law school in an inner-city environment where nearly every homeless or impoverished person I've seen has been African American has altered my own perception somewhat. It's hard to continue to use the concept that "I know a few black friends from the suburbs who've succeeded" as somehow capable of countering the reality that this entire city feels like a racially segregated society.

There may be laws against segregation, but if I see someone who is on the streets late at night and white I am immediately able to (correctly) identify that he's a white college student, tourist, or suburbanite getting drunk in the city on the weekends. Whereas when I see an African American on the streets, occasionally they're also a student or a tourist or a wealthy suburbanite in a suit, but they're disproportionately residents of the city who are struggling to survive.
(That may sound like a stereotype, but the sad thing isn't the stereotype itself, it's the truth underlying said stereotype, and the disproportionate opportunities this evidence strongly points to.)

The real problem I have though is that there simply hasn't been a solution identified that actually addresses the problem. Part of this is politics. Republicans recently seem virulently anti-minorities and implicitly supportive of a status quo (nevermind the fact that several conservative positions, analyzed on their own merits or lack thereof, really should have nothing whatsoever to do with racial issues, and thus it's sad that our society has actually divided into partisan contingencies on such issues.)

But the Democrats -- who, mind you, have actually been the ones running the show in big cities (and now also, disproportionately run things in State and Federal offices) have an equally big issue relating to minorities, and it goes something like this: Because the Republican party is so blatantly anti-minorities, the Democrats are the only viable political option for minorities to vote for. Which leads to Democrats relying on minorities to consistently to vote for them. Which means that Democratic candidates for office no longer need to actually appeal to minority constituents. African Americans certainly would be foolish to vote Republican, but voting Democratic in overwhelming numbers simply reinforces the notion that Democrats can work on courting on white men, married women, and independents.

There's also the corruption problem, and that also stems from one-party control in major cities. Since no one seriously competes against the Democrats, the Democrats stay in power and no new ideas or concepts are introduced that could actually revolutionize inner cities. The one-party system in cities stems to executive agencies in such a way as to encourage the kinds of corruption scenarios that have been egregious lately in cities like Chicago and my hometown. And unfortunately, these kinds of scandals don't impact everyone equally.

Minorities and the poorer classes who disproportionately live in cities rely on government aid much more so than suburbanites, so when local governments become corrupt, it's those without stable salaries or established wealth who tend to be severely impacted. If you're rich you might technically lose more due to the taxes you're paying, but government corruption costs the rich a brand-new 72 inch television set, while government corruption can cost the poor vital money to improve schools and hospitals in desperate need. And when the government cuts back on service sector jobs due to poor financial wrangling, it's those on the bottom of the ladder who will suffer most.

But what can be done? What should be done? I can't really think of a great way for American society to address these issues. The best possible solution would involve the rise of a third party that could challenge Democrats in local elections but somehow agree to not screw around with Democrats on the federal level. I'll call this The New Liberal Party, or NLP. The way the NLP would have to work, in order to ensure that Republicans don't take advantage of the schism on a federal level to dominate the Presidency (and thus, dominate the Supreme Court) is to establish a system where local and state elections are exclusively contested. The NLP could subsequently work to keep Democrats "honest" by ensuring competition in districts that usually remain noncompetitive. You'd have corrupt Democrats who would still win elections and NLP members might succumb to corruption themselves, but the frequent party turnover and destabilization of the seats would hopefully prevent any truly disastrous corruption from undermining the inner cities, while the NLP's sheer existence and ability to greater address the needs of specific localities might increase minority representation and allow an increase in minority voices on the local and state levels.

Even then, would an NLP necessarily help more than, say, a Democratic primary? If the NLP truly becomes a leftist force, could their interests undermine the Democratic party in future national elections? Alternatively, could the NLP actually overtake and consume the Democrats as the Republicans once did to the Federalists and Whigs, and would the results drive the party to take a hard-left turn that would undermine their appeal to centrists in a way similar to how the Tea Party movement and the Bush II Administration have arguably undermined centrist Republican interests? I can't possibly say.

Beyond matters of governance, however, there's sort of a balancing act that minority advocacy groups need to be consider regarding advancing their social interests, and I can't think of a perfect solution there, either. The difficulty lies in convincing the "white majority" (or however you'd like to refer to it) that racism is prevalent and an issue of deep concern without encouraging the kind of "either/or" guilt politics that would only serve to heighten opposition or increase misguided feelings of persecution. It's a difficult issue minorities in general face: massive social change in a country requires some degree of participation by the numerical majority. There's no such thing as "white interest groups" (beyond crazy extremists like the KKK) because majoritarian processes like voting in general favor the white population.

On the one hand, the unequal bargaining power and racial blemishes in America's history (and present circumstances) can inflame the passions of minorities to cast whites as unknowing oppressors and to view "European culture" through the prism of malevolence. But a hard line of hostility only serves to further divide the majority and the minority and create schisms, some of which are artificial and result largely from the very "anti-racist" social commentaries sponsored by those with the best of intentions. Highlight the discrepancy of power among the races to children, and future generations might grow up believing that the boundaries exist, and might either react defensively to combat the politics of guilt (whites) or react with constant hostility to oppressors both real and imaginary (minorities.)

I wish there was a middle line to walk, a trapeze to cross over, but if it's out there, I'm certainly not the one qualified to identify it. Take me, personally, for instance: I love western culture. I love Roman, Greek, and medieval European history, whereas African history couldn't hold my interest in High School (I've discovered I'm a huge Mongolian history fan, though, so it's not entirely a racial thing.) I like western movies, I like western literature, I like my Eurocentric food, I believe in a religion with origins interwoven through Europe. It sucks to put it in that language insofar as it makes me sound racist, but there's some degree of truth to the fact that I'm very much a stereotypical white guy.

So, exactly how should I feel about racial inequality? Can I balance the trapeze walk in advocating minority rights without doing so in a way that leads me to discredit or despise the culture in which I am an active participant? Assuming that there's truly no such thing as a "post-racial" society, and assuming ethnic groups will always retain some degree of a unique identity, is there a way that fighting against white power or white establishment could be fulfilled that wouldn't lead me to toss stones at my own glass houses? These are questions I've struggled with, to some extent. Oh, it's easy to do the little things like volunteer to assist individual organizations impacting the lives of inner city minorities (I've done that.) But politicians who advocate minority rights in urban areas like where I presently live seem to take one of two tracts: there are the appeasers who claim to support minority ethnic groups but inevitably do virtually nothing but maintain the status quo, and then there are the Jesse Jacksons and Al Sharptons, who make virulent arguments that seem to suggest that any true advancement of minority rights has to come with some expense to Caucasian culture -- after all, minorities must demand a greater slice of a pie that's inevitably limited due to scarce resources.

Is it possible that a political platform that concentrates on alleviating the plights of minorities and takes an actively anti-racial tone to somehow do so without alienating whites by seeming to attack or discredit them, or guilt them into believing Caucasians are "different" to such an extent as to be viewed as "enemies", as the OP himself seems to engage in by defining a worldview that emphasizes white dominance in a way with far-reaching negative connotations? Is there a way I can continue to like my "whiteness" (insofar as, again, I'm a stereotypical Caucasian with largely Eurocentric preferences) while simultaneously acknowledging its unfair advantage and striving to take political positions that arguably undermine it? Is there a way I can even say I like my Eurocentric values without coming off as "racist?" (After all, it's not as if an equally honest African American who proclaimed he "liked" the food, music, history, literature, etc. of his culture would be described as "racist.")

In other words: Is there a way we could separate the concept of ethnic bias in regards individual personal preferences from the larger and much more disconcerting issue of ethnic bias in broader society, manifesting itself through decisions made by the government, the media and corporations?

Fortunately, changing demographics will at least partially solve this problem for us: whites will not forever retain their majority in America.

And I just engaged in another lengthy rant, didn't I? Hopefully this rant doesn't manage to piss anyone off: it's just the honest opinion of one person struggling with racial issues in the same way nearly everyone else is these days. (Unless you want to claim you're perfectly unbiased when it comes to every issue of race and ethnicity, in which case, you're lying.)