France Trying To Unclothe Islamic Women... For Safety

Seil · 05-05-2010, 02:56 PM

Because we really need at least one serious thread.

Now, some people - feminists and conservatives - 'dislike' the burqa in the same way that gay people make conservatives feel uncomfortable.

Anyways, France is trying to outright ban them.

So if it's a traditional garment:

Quote:

A burqa is an enveloping outer garment worn by women in some Islamic traditions for the purpose of hiding a female's body when out in public. It is worn over the usual daily clothing (often a long dress or a shalwar kameez) and removed when the woman returns to the sanctuary of the household, out of the view of men that are not their husbands, fathers, brothers, uncles, sons and grandsons.

Which remains part of the culture of a different race of persons whom, while we may not agree with their views or politics, respect as other human beings on this planet and subject to the same freedoms and rights as anyone else, why is France banning it? Or at least trying to?

Quote:

Originally Posted by CNN

Link

Commission members began their work six months ago after French President Nicolas Sarkozy controversially told lawmakers that the full veil was "not welcome" in France.

Sarkozy said the issue is one of a woman's freedom and dignity, and did not have to do with religion...

By recommending a ban on full veils in public places such as hospitals and schools and by anyone receiving public services, the commission members said they wanted to assist those working with members of the public when asking that full veils be removed. That would include school teachers who meet children's parents or ticket agents at train stations.

So something that's part of their culture and tradition, and has been for some time, is gettin' banned in an entire country because Sarkozy... wants to see some faces?

I could see that if there was terrible accident or something like that where a burqa was the cause of a horrible decapitation or whatever, but since I'm pretty sure that French law would prohibit Islamic men forcing their wives/daughters to wear the veil without their consent, because I think that in France women have the right to choose whether or not they want to wear the veil or go without, and because in France those women that do wear it are not doing so because they're trying to subjugate an entire gender but keep their culture and tradition alive... I don't really see why an entire country has to ban them.

But maybe I'm wrong about all this and France is just ass backwards. I mean, burqas can be pretty hot.

Viridis · 05-05-2010, 03:03 PM

Which country was it that banned minarets?

Loyal · 05-05-2010, 03:07 PM

Sweden, I think? Pretty sure it began with an S.

Amake · 05-05-2010, 03:10 PM

France always seem to be quite progressive in their politics. If you are going to challenge Islamic traditions banning burqas would be a relatively harmless starting point I guess.

And I have been wondering about how to challenge Islamic traditions since I found that their leaders officially reject parts of the United Nations declaration of human rights because they think God is more important. I would like to be able to show them every bit of respect a human being deserves, but that's hard when they don't share the same priority.

Professor Smarmiarty · 05-05-2010, 03:11 PM

Switzerland.
Also they've been talking about banning Burqas for like the past two years in France. Haven't done anything so far.
A lot of it is concern that women are force to wear them. The issue first came about in schools where they are banned (alongside other religious items such as skullcaps) and discussions about how legal that was lead to it being spread wider.

In response to IQ: Who does take the declaration of human rights seriously? I don't think anybody does.

Amake · 05-05-2010, 03:19 PM

I think everyone takes it seriously. Not to the point where it gets in the way of any actual lawmaking, but I'm pretty sure everyone is on board with the human rights being at least sound in principle, worth thinking about and something for future generations to hopefully get closer to realizing. Almost everyone that is.

Kyanbu The Legend · 05-05-2010, 03:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Smarty McBarrelpants

Switzerland.
Also they've been talking about banning Burqas for like the past two years in France. Haven't done anything so far.
A lot of it is concern that women are force to wear them. The issue first came about in schools where they are banned (alongside other religious items such as skullcaps) and discussions about how legal that was lead to it being spread wider.

In response to IQ: Who does take the declaration of human rights seriously? I don't think anybody does.

Sadly you might be right about that.

Professor Smarmiarty · 05-05-2010, 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Invisible Queen

I think everyone takes it seriously. Not to the point where it gets in the way of any actual lawmaking, but I'm pretty sure everyone is on board with the human rights being at least sound in principle, worth thinking about and something for future generations to hopefully get closer to realizing. Almost everyone that is.

Yeah they take it seriously in the "Yeah that's a good idea we should follow as long as it doesn't hamper the ability of us/our lobbyists fucking over everyone else". So in other worlds not at all.

Amake · 05-05-2010, 03:46 PM

Well, let's challenge lobbyist traditions too. Profits nor prophets should be more important than human rights!

pochercoaster · 05-05-2010, 05:52 PM

PS, there was a thing in the newspaper a few weeks ago about how Quebec is trying to ban the niqab.

This is nothing more than racism. If you really want to "liberate" women you don't isolate them by forcing them to change what they're wearing in order to receive public services, especially when burqas and niqabs are only worn by a very very small part of the population in these countries. (Well, I know it's a very very tiny percentage in Quebec, not so sure about France, but I suspect it's equally negligible.)

I am very weirded out when laws are passed regarding what kind of clothing women can wear. Why on earth is it wrong for someone to cover their head and face if they so chose? Isn't it insulting to automatically assume these women are repressed? They may wear a burqa because their husbands want them to. They may also wear them because it's how they grew up and anything else would feel silly even though they are educated, liberal people.

Yes, there are repressed Islamic women, but it's not fair to assume that just because they chose to wear the clothing they grew up wearing that they are- anymore than I'd be "repressed" if I chose not to go bare breasted on the beach in the Dominican Republic.

I live in an area with a significant muslim population- heck, my boss and a good portion of my co-workers are muslim- and I just want to state loud and clear that the vast majority of them, despite what the media says, are NOT back-asswards people. Even if they chose to cover up more than Westerners do. It's just what they're comfortable wearing.

There is really no way to say who is or isn't repressed until you get to know the individual, and as far as I can see this law will be useless in helping those who ARE repressed.

Edit: Also, yeah, oppressed is the right term. Derp.

05-05-2010, 03:10 PM	#4
Amake Keeper of the new Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: A place without judgment Posts: 4,506	France always seem to be quite progressive in their politics. If you are going to challenge Islamic traditions banning burqas would be a relatively harmless starting point I guess. And I have been wondering about how to challenge Islamic traditions since I found that their leaders officially reject parts of the United Nations declaration of human rights because they think God is more important. I would like to be able to show them every bit of respect a human being deserves, but that's hard when they don't share the same priority. __________________ Hope insistent, trust implicit, love inherent, life immersed

05-05-2010, 03:19 PM	#6
Amake Keeper of the new Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: A place without judgment Posts: 4,506	I think everyone takes it seriously. Not to the point where it gets in the way of any actual lawmaking, but I'm pretty sure everyone is on board with the human rights being at least sound in principle, worth thinking about and something for future generations to hopefully get closer to realizing. Almost everyone that is. __________________ Hope insistent, trust implicit, love inherent, life immersed

05-05-2010, 03:46 PM	#9
Amake Keeper of the new Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: A place without judgment Posts: 4,506	Well, let's challenge lobbyist traditions too. Profits nor prophets should be more important than human rights! __________________ Hope insistent, trust implicit, love inherent, life immersed

05-05-2010, 05:52 PM	#10
pochercoaster rollerpocher tycoon Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 1,808	PS, there was a thing in the newspaper a few weeks ago about how Quebec is trying to ban the niqab. This is nothing more than racism. If you really want to "liberate" women you don't isolate them by forcing them to change what they're wearing in order to receive public services, especially when burqas and niqabs are only worn by a very very small part of the population in these countries. (Well, I know it's a very very tiny percentage in Quebec, not so sure about France, but I suspect it's equally negligible.) I am very weirded out when laws are passed regarding what kind of clothing women can wear. Why on earth is it wrong for someone to cover their head and face if they so chose? Isn't it insulting to automatically assume these women are repressed? They may wear a burqa because their husbands want them to. They may also wear them because it's how they grew up and anything else would feel silly even though they are educated, liberal people. Yes, there are repressed Islamic women, but it's not fair to assume that just because they chose to wear the clothing they grew up wearing that they are- anymore than I'd be "repressed" if I chose not to go bare breasted on the beach in the Dominican Republic. I live in an area with a significant muslim population- heck, my boss and a good portion of my co-workers are muslim- and I just want to state loud and clear that the vast majority of them, despite what the media says, are NOT back-asswards people. Even if they chose to cover up more than Westerners do. It's just what they're comfortable wearing. There is really no way to say who is or isn't repressed until you get to know the individual, and as far as I can see this law will be useless in helping those who ARE repressed. Edit: Also, yeah, oppressed is the right term. Derp. Last edited by pochercoaster; 05-05-2010 at 06:42 PM.

05-05-2010, 03:11 PM	#5
Professor Smarmiarty Sent to the cornfield Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: K-space Posts: 9,758	Switzerland. Also they've been talking about banning Burqas for like the past two years in France. Haven't done anything so far. A lot of it is concern that women are force to wear them. The issue first came about in schools where they are banned (alongside other religious items such as skullcaps) and discussions about how legal that was lead to it being spread wider. In response to IQ: Who does take the declaration of human rights seriously? I don't think anybody does.