Is math real?

[Aerozord]

So I was feeling philosophical. Now there is no known answer to this question, but I wished to know what people thought.

Is "math" a fact of the universe or simply a thing humans invented to try and understand the universe? Do you think if we met an alien race our math would be the same? Does 2+2=4 because this is factual or because we humans have decreed four individual similar items grouped together are given a single value of four?

In many ways its a "if a tree falls in the forest" scenario. Would math still exist if we were not there to codify it?

[Krylo]

[Karrrrrrrrrrrresche]

You have a tree, an apple falls from the tree, that means there's one apple beneath the tree. Another apple falls, now there are two apples beneath the tree.

Mathematics is simply assigning language to this and other concepts. To say that it wouldn't exist without them is like saying a river wouldn't exist if we didn't exist to call it a river.

[RobinStarwing]

I believe in Mathmagics and FRIENDSHIP!

[phil_]

[Loyal]

[Bard The 5th LW]

Originally Posted by Aerozord

So I was feeling philosophical. Now there is no known answer to this question,

The answer is a resounding "Yeah".

[Aerozord]

Originally Posted by K-Re$ha

Mathematics is simply assigning language to this and other concepts. To say that it wouldn't exist without them is like saying a river wouldn't exist if we didn't exist to call it a river.

That would mean math isn't empirical fact. Language is something humans created to describe what they are observing. "River" is an actual thing, it can be observed and interacted with. The word "river" is not. It has no meaning besides what we ascribe to it and could just as easily call it any number of other things. If math is a language we use to describe what we are observing than if there were no humans to say "there are two apples" than the concept of two wouldn't exist. A human had to codify that these two things were the same, that the state they exist in would add them together. There are only two "apples" because we humans decided to classify two different things as the same thing. What if the apple spontaneously turned into an orange. Is it still two? There are two things, but the things are more different. Could also say now there is only one, but if value is fact than you can make a definitive statement.

If you have an apple and an orange you can say it has a value of 2 (fruit), 1 (apple), 0 (hamsters), or some huge number if describing atoms. To reiterate its only "2" because you as a sentient being decided to make it "2". Going back to your river example. It being a river and not a lake or an ocean is human language. But it being a mass of liquid hydrodioxide is fact. Words are made up to describe things that are real. If math is language than it is just a made up thing to describe stuff we observe.

[edit] just saying this cause its the holidays. I'm not looking to fight and I dont know if people consider this antagonistic. I enjoy pondering these things and discussing them with others. Having my points challenged and doing the same to others. Spreading information and learning new stuff myself. This is simple fun to me and I hope its fun to others as well

[Karrrrrrrrrrrresche]

Originally Posted by Aerozord

That would mean math isn't empirical fact. Language is something humans created to describe what they are observing. "River" is an actual thing, it can be observed and interacted with. The word "river" is not. It has no meaning besides what we ascribe to it and could just as easily call it any number of other things. If math is a language we use to describe what we are observing than if there were no humans to say "there are two apples" than the concept of two wouldn't exist.

Mathematics are the things humans describe those concepts with, but the things that they describe are intrinsic. Fundamental. They don't go away or change just because they're inaccurately described.

You can call a flowing stretch of water a lake, instead of a river if you want, but it won't actually become a filled basin of water just because you do. Nor would it have not been either of those things had none of us ever existed to describe them as such. Even if you change the definitions and swap them around, the concepts those terms described aren't any different. Only the particulars of how human beings talked about them.
Whether or not there are humans around to describe the quantity of those apples, they remain. Whether or not someone is there to hear the tree falling, the impact still sends out a shock wave that could be heard if someone were present to interpret it.

[The Artist Formerly Known as Hawk]

K-Resh pretty much hit the philosophical nail with the metaphorical hammer there; this is basically the tree falling in a forest question, and about as useful as. At the end of the day, we don't live in a universe where these things don't exist, or where humans don't exist to observe them. If we did, then nobody would be observing them, because they don't exist, and neither would the question. Might as well ask do colours exist, or are they only illusions found in the mind by interpreting waveforms.

Humans exist, we observe things, we name them, clarify them, ascribe them structure and meaning. If they don't exist we don't do that. A table is still a table no matter what language you use to name it. 5 + 5 of something is still ten whether you count in base 10 or binary. A hydrogen atom is still going to be composed of a proton and an electron no matter how much you philosophise over it.