Pokemon Umbral Discussion 34: all your base...

[Geminex]

Yeah, be mean to the guy who can't actually check the RP thread because his internet's so fucking crappy (Goddammit, Vodafone). That's like... I dunno, starting a fist-fight with an armless guy? Kicking a guy with no legs? Something along those lines.
Also, Menarker...

I'm suprised that you didn't speak up about this in the first battle when Togekiss had this item and we went into discussion about it. Kinda quite late to object.

Oh, yeah... well, good point, that. Why didn't I speak up earlier? I unno, really... maybe had something to do with the fact that I was moving across continents... hmmm... what do you think?

Not that it matters, anyway, you're totally right, it's far too late to object to that now, better drop it, ri-ahahahahahahahahaNOOOO.

No, seriously. Maybe it was nerfed already, but that isn't enough.
First, yes, I know, pokemon don't gain rage themselves. Of course, the question is, why can an item that's held by a pokemon cause its master to gain rage. It's not Renny holding the ribbon, after all. Despite this, you're insisting that it be Renny's neighbors, whom Renny gains rage for, not Togekiss' neighbors.

Also, in terms of balance, in practice, this little item is gonna triple Renny's potential to get rage from enemy attacks. Assming that the rage he gets stems equally from attacking and getting attacked, he's effectively doubling his overall potential to geain rage.

Not utterly imbalanced, I'll admit, but certainly stronger than I think is fair, especially considering the ever-increasing value of rage.

Mind you, I'm not sure how to fix it. Just the two allies adjacent to the pokemon, I take it that'd be too weak for you?
...
Hmm. How about this. Affects the two closest pokemon to either side (not humans). In this case, that'd be Nidoqueen, Shaymin, Palkia and Aria.
Renny gets 5 rage every time one of them get rage for taking damage. But to get this rage, Togekiss has to take a certain amount of 'sympathy damage', not too huge, but significant. Maybe 1/4th of the damage taken by the actual target. If this damage is blocked, for whatever reason, Renny gets no rage.

That'd be less exploitable, and it'd have a downside of sorts. How about it?

[Dracorion]

Actually Geminex, you were there.

Here. The argument starts on Page 5 and your first appearance is on Page 7. Which is your only post on the subject, really.

That would imply that you didn't really think it was that big a deal back then.

[Menarker]

Originally Posted by Geminex

Yeah, be mean to the guy who can't actually check the RP thread because his internet's so fucking crappy (Goddammit, Vodafone). That's like... I dunno, starting a fist-fight with an armless guy? Kicking a guy with no legs? Something along those lines.
Also, Menarker...


Oh, yeah... well, good point, that. Why didn't I speak up earlier? I unno, really... maybe had something to do with the fact that I was moving across continents... hmmm... what do you think?

Not that it matters, anyway, you're totally right, it's far too late to object to that now, better drop it, ri-ahahahahahahahahaNOOOO.

No, seriously. Maybe it was nerfed already, but that isn't enough.
First, yes, I know, pokemon don't gain rage themselves. Of course, the question is, why can an item that's held by a pokemon cause its master to gain rage. It's not Renny holding the ribbon, after all. Despite this, you're insisting that it be Renny's neighbors, whom Renny gains rage for, not Togekiss' neighbors.

Also, in terms of balance, in practice, this little item is gonna triple Renny's potential to get rage from enemy attacks. Assuming that the rage he gets stems equally from attacking and getting attacked, he's effectively doubling his overall potential to gain rage.

Not utterly imbalanced, I'll admit, but certainly stronger than I think is fair, especially considering the ever-increasing value of rage.

Mind you, I'm not sure how to fix it. Just the two allies adjacent to the pokemon, I take it that'd be too weak for you?
...
Hmm. How about this. Affects the two closest pokemon to either side (not humans). In this case, that'd be Nidoqueen, Shaymin, Palkia and Aria.
Renny gets 5 rage every time one of them get rage for taking damage. But to get this rage, Togekiss has to take a certain amount of 'sympathy damage', not too huge, but significant. Maybe 1/4th of the damage taken by the actual target. If this damage is blocked, for whatever reason, Renny gets no rage.

That'd be less exploitable, and it'd have a downside of sorts. How about it?

I'm going to break this down into chunks.

Of course, the question is, why can an item that's held by a pokemon cause its master to gain rage. It's not Renny holding the ribbon, after all. Despite this, you're insisting that it be Renny's neighbors, whom Renny gains rage for, not Togekiss' neighbors.

Then I should ask why Pierce gains rage when his pokemons does a basic attack. Or why Harliette can use the "emotion and rage" gathered by her pokemons attacking or being hit, to empower HER ability to use her shotgun. "Rage" is a misnomer of sort that AB uses because it is convenient enough and kinda implies that both the trainer/slayer/pokebrids and whatever pokemons they have are shared in emotion/passion in some manner or fashion. Despite that, a pokemon can attack (building up rage/emotions) and get hurt (angered/emotional)... but then it could get knocked out... Does that rage disappear because that pokemon who was feeling the rage is now out of combat? No! The result is that the rage still exists as it could be used by the trainer either through Love-Techs (The rage is used on someone who may very well be miles away from one's current location like Pierce/Chizuru), or another pokemon who has not even see the battle and known what is going on, among other examples! Thus your argument (on that point for sure) is pretty much null, since even the most basics of Rage rules and situations is fighting against your argument.

Thematically, Togekiss is the harbringer of peace and happiness and dislike strife (It helps that Renny shares the same personality). The species of Togepis/Togetic/Togekiss all have the ability to comfort and "bless" people. The item just makes that particular trait more of a linked connection with Renny. When Togekiss sees those to itself hurt, it amplifies that innate ability to the point where that "rage" could be a power source for anything its partner/master Renny can use. It's "ability" to protect (Serene Blessing) or attack viciously (Divide/Focus) comes from the rage that is gathered by Renny. So basically, by gathering rage, it is basically giving the option of empowering itself to pay retribution on the foe, or protect someone from further harm.

A couple of things more...

Mind you, I'm not sure how to fix it. Just the two allies adjacent to the pokemon, I take it that'd be too weak for you?

In a double pokemon battle like we have been constantly doing, one of Togekiss's neighbors would always be the other of Renny's pokemon (either to the right or left of Togekiss,) which does not help at all since Renny would gain rage if his own pokemon were hurt anyhow. And yes, so very very narrow to the point of bordering useless.

Also, in terms of balance, in practice, this little item is gonna triple Renny's potential to get rage from enemy attacks. Assuming that the rage he gets stems equally from attacking and getting attacked, he's effectively doubling his overall potential to gain rage.

The item only works upon said neighbors getting hurt and only when Togekiss is on the field (and I use the other pokemons very frequently too, except for perhaps Umbreon). Since the foe's attacks can't be controlled except by negating attacks which would hamper getting rage (AB controls whom the enemy attack) It's really difficult to "exploit" because there is really no matter of control. It's really more of potential insurance to help back up the others, although it doesn't help Renny if his pokemons are the one being attacked.

Hmm. How about this. Affects the two closest pokemon to either side (not humans). In this case, that'd be Nidoqueen, Shaymin, Palkia and Aria.
Renny gets 5 rage every time one of them get rage for taking damage. But to get this rage, Togekiss has to take a certain amount of 'sympathy damage', not too huge, but significant. Maybe 1/4th of the damage taken by the actual target. If this damage is blocked, for whatever reason, Renny gets no rage.

This borders on retarded. Why should Togekiss be hurt just because it is "passionately enraged" with an ally nearby is hurt? Of course, if the neighbors never get hurt, then the rage won't happen to begin with.

Oh, yeah... well, good point, that. Why didn't I speak up earlier? I unno, really... maybe had something to do with the fact that I was moving across continents... hmmm... what do you think?

What I meant was why didn't you object to it in the first battle of the mission where it was used, especially after you came back. Really, the effect was small enough (even when Renny was beside Harliette) that you didn't even notice it until this current second time around, even though I even posted its effect for everyone to notice for when AB would write up his post. The item was made before the mission started. It was fine enough the first time around. And now, we haven't even seen the results of the second time around (I was just reminding AB of the effect) and you're calling out foul play despite the fact that the first result was allowed to pass unmolested or even accepted.


Really, it's a strong item, but not really to the extent that it invalidates other people's items/skills/upgrades, including the RDPA which easily is a menace and you could have next mission if you so wished.

[Dracorion]

Hey AB, you're a loser!

And you're dumb!