The Very Big Final Fantasy XIII Thread

[Ape Boy]

Eh, fair enough. As I mentioned, I don't have half the problems with the game you do, really enjoying it a lot. To each his own, just noticed you had a lot negative about the game.

[MFD]

I don't know about people comparing the plot to Ten or Twelve. I played Twelve but gave up at some point when I realized the Quickenings were the only strategy to have.

Thirteen is pretty awesome plotwise. I mean, sure... it's not subtle by any means. But Sazh's story is probably the worst thing (in a good way!) that I've experienced in a video game. Fullstop. And Vanille's secret? Pretty damn subtle about it, but makes perfect damned sense afterwards. From her accent being Aussie (Pulse) trying to hide behind a bad American (Coccoon) accent, to her randomly finding a weapon she knows how to use on the Pulse fal'Cie at the beginning, and her pseudo-primitive tribal
outfit.

I dunno. Finding the game's plot derivative seems dishonest to me.

[Kim]

Originally Posted by MFD

I played Twelve but gave up at some point when I realized the Quickenings were the only strategy to have.

Compare with the second half of the game where the quickenings are almost entirely useless except as a cheap way to try and get your MP back every once in a while, since the damage they doesn't really improve all that much. In fact, that they aren't that useful in the long run is one of my greater complaints about XII.

Thirteen is pretty awesome plotwise.

Unless you're on Disc Three already, the plot hasn't really started yet. Who knows, maybe you'll like the plot twist. I didn't.

A lot of my complaints about the plot have to do with the execution. Stuff that could have worked as a general idea ends up not working because terrible dialogue, and stuff not making sense or being needlessly convoluted. That and the villains have pretty much zero characterization so blah at them.

But Sazh's story is probably the worst thing (in a good way!) that I've experienced in a video game. Fullstop.

It was well done and pretty great, but had its problems.
Specifically... You know Sazh isn't actually dead because he can't die because he's a main character. The execution of the bit where his son became a l'Cie really didn't work, so the later stuff where his son becomes a crystal and all that jazz doesn't have nearly the emotional impact it could have had had that earlier bit been done properly.

Pretty damn subtle about it

Really? I guessed that fairly quickly. This isn't me bragging about my powers of perception, as I don't think they're all that good. I'm just saying I thought it was a fairly obvious plot twist that most people would catch on to at least ten hours before the reveal. Might've been less obvious if Vanille would shut up. X would have been better without a narrator, and the same goes for XIII. It's just... no good.

[bluestarultor]

Originally Posted by MFD

I don't know about people comparing the plot to Ten or Twelve. I played Twelve but gave up at some point when I realized the Quickenings were the only strategy to have.

Thirteen is pretty awesome plotwise. I mean, sure... it's not subtle by any means. But Sazh's story is probably the worst thing (in a good way!) that I've experienced in a video game. Fullstop. And Vanille's secret? Pretty damn subtle about it, but makes perfect damned sense afterwards. From her accent being Aussie (Pulse) trying to hide behind a bad American (Coccoon) accent, to her randomly finding a weapon she knows how to use on the Pulse fal'Cie at the beginning, and her pseudo-primitive tribal
outfit.

I dunno. Finding the game's plot derivative seems dishonest to me.

Honestly, the similarities to either 10 OR 12 are marginal at best. You can't even really claim a mix. The only real parallel is that in all three, you're running from the government or some semblance thereof. But then that goes for pretty much any FF title, or at least half of them. You don't really have the political drama of 12, nor do you really have the same personal antagonism as in 10. In fact, the focus is almost entirely on the party's personal strife, which is pretty unique in the series. They don't have a clearly-defined goal in need of immediate attention and spend most of the game actively resisting being pushed into doing things they don't want to do. I can't really think of any other member of the series that goes in that direction.

It may not be the BEST direction to go, but it's certainly a unique one.

[Kim]

Okay big spoilery "How FFXIII is aping plot points from previous FF titles" list... Are you ready? 3, 2, 1, GO!

Final Fantasy Tactics: Leaders of a false religion are trying to bring back a dead god.
FFXIII: The leader of Cocoon is trying to bring back a dead god, and his design is very obviously inspired by religious imagery.

FFX: Everyone mindlessly follows the religion, which is false and manipulates people's hatred and fear to pit them against the Al Bhed.
FFXIII: Everyone mindlessly follows the leader of Cocoon, who is a lying douchebag and manipulates people's hatred and fear to pit them against Pulse. Also, religious imagery.

FFXII: Occuria
FFXIII: Fal'Cie

FFX: Rikku is an Al Bhed, a race the religion denounces and pits its members against. She joins the party, but starts off hiding the truth of her Al Bhed heritage.
FFXIII: Vanille is from Pulse, something the leader of Cocoon denounces and pits the people against. She joins the party, but starts off hiding the truth that she's from Pulse.

FFVII: Avalanche
FFXIII: Nora

There are probably a bunch more, but I'm lazy. There are also plenty of other smaller similarities, but... well... the laziness.

I could probably throw in a joke about the Eidolons ripping off Persona, but I worry people would think I was being serious about that one.

EDIT for another one...

FFX: Summoners die after completing their journey to defeat Sin.
FFXIII: l'Cie turn into crystal statues after completing their focus.

[bluestarultor]

There's a mite difference between pulling plot points/tropes and pulling actual bits of plot. Also, a couple of those are pretty well digging for different reasons. Gods = gods? Duh? I know it's an oversimplification, but then so is the comparison. And NORA is so minor that it hardly even counts.

I'll agree to some of those similarities, but if your argument is really that it's pulling from as many as four other games in such limited blatancy, it really is a weaker argument than it could be. Hell, 9 pulled from way more than that and really only got called out because of how obvious it was, and even then, it was arguably in actual homage/celebration territory.


EDIT @ your edit: Not only is that one a stretch, but it's not even true. Summoners don't die as a direct result of defeating SIN. Rather, someone else does as a sacrifice to become their Final Aeon. It's just such a high-powered battle that the chances of survival aren't very good for anyone involved.

Edit again: Never mind, did a double-check and you're right. It's still a bit of a stretch, though. Also, the crystallization process is, in fact, reversible, which is why it's considered immortality. You'll find out more about this later, I'm sure.

[Kim]

Originally Posted by bluestarultor

There's a mite difference between pulling plot points/tropes and pulling actual bits of plot. Also, a couple of those are pretty well digging for different reasons. Gods = gods? Duh? I know it's an oversimplification, but then so is the comparison. And NORA is so minor that it hardly even counts.

Fal'Cie and Occuria aren't just the same because they're gods. They're gods who use and manipulate the entire human race to lead the world down the path they think it should go, and in both games one of the main big deals is that the heroes are putting a stop to the gods lording over the entire course of human history. I just figured it was so obvious it didn't need to be expounded upon.

Also, my problem with FFXIII bringing in stuff from previous games is less that they're doing it, and more that they're doing a really shitty job of it.

EDIT @ your edit: Not only is that one a stretch, but it's not even true. Summoners don't die as a direct result of defeating SIN. Rather, someone else does as a sacrifice to become their Final Aeon. It's just such a high-powered battle that the chances of survival aren't very good for anyone involved.

No. It kills them. The game says "Summoning the final Aeon will kill her", and it isn't a big shock because she *might* die. It's a big shock because she *will* die. As in, that is what will happen if she summons it. No alternative.

Okay. Yeah. The reason I'm comparing them is that while the cyrstalization in XIII is reversible, it's only reversible for when the Fal'Cie want you to do some other job for them. Thus the whole deal of being punished for doing what you "have" to. It's the basic underlying idea, and that's the important thing, at least to me.

[MFD]

Really? Really? "Final Fantasy VII has a group of rebels and so does FFXIII what a ripoff?"

[Kim]

FFVII has a group of rebels with a meaningless name, dedicated to defeating the existing authority which has little characterization beyond being evil because they're evil. The group itself has little characterization either, beyond that they are generic good guy rebels opposing the generic bad guys. The rebel group plays only a minor role in the story, and ceases to be relevant after the first disc. The rebel group has three boring NPCs who only show up for the first disc, and then are never heard from again. At least FFVII had the balls to kill its boring NPCs though.

Of course, the whole NORA = Avalanche thing was very minor, and hardly the focus of my argument. It was just a really obvious and pointless similarity. It was another bit of Toriyama going "Hey this previous FF had this! FFXIII should have it, too!" And that he was doing that at all was more the focus than anything.

EDIT: Am I being meaner to the game's plot than it warrants? Yes! Certainly! I make no claims to the contrary. The thing is that it just bores the hell out of me, and I find it frustrating to see these plot points in the game when I've seen similar ones before, but done better. The game isn't as bad as I make it sound, but that's because what isn't bad isn't enough for me to really get talkative about. The combat's good, but since that is the only thing you do, it is quickly wearing on my nerves.

[bluestarultor]

Welp, you heard it here, folks! Nonsie says he just likes to bitch!


I'm kidding, but really, as other people have noted, a lot of the stuff you're complaining about didn't bother them/they actually liked it, and you have to admit you've been hating on the game since a year before the release, so I think you can understand why people are having problems with your arguments. Not that there aren't valid points in there, but boy who cried wolf and all. I'm sure it'll be a good anti review once you crank it out.