Why I stopped watching porn

[tacticslion]

"Why I stopped watching porn"

While this isn't safe for work, I came across this today, and it's pretty great.

Here's the thing. I'm a Christian, as most of you know. I read the Bible. If anyone has ever believed that Christianity or the Bible is anti-sexuality, you're missing the Song of Solomon, or, as it's known in the Hebraic, Song of Songs. (You're also missing a huge number of other verses.)

Loving erotica, intimacy, beautiful sexuality and love are a fundamental part of what is important and good within the scriptures, meant to be celebrated and holy and enjoyed.

Sex: it's awesome.

(Incidentally, it's also how our species continues which, you know, is kind of important.)

With that said, I still find this video, which is not taken from a Conservative perspective, very profound and excellent. While I don't agree that absorbing specific media forces action, I do agree that media influences action, because it changes what is viewed as "normal" - and with increasing awareness of sexual issues and problems (ugh, that recent statistic in the News subforum is... awful...) I find this a compelling thing to contemplate and really dig into and think about.

It's one of the reasons that I always hesitate when people talk about the problems with displaying sexuality instead of violence. I tend to agree: showing people engaging in loving acts doesn't seem like it should be somehow more taboo than showing people engaged in violent action. However, I think one reason (certainly not the only, but I do think it is one) it so often comes across as worse is that it's so often handled so poorly, and so... grotesquely.



On a related note, I am curious if there are any erotic stories or industries (outside of private creations or productions, or - much maligned as it is - fan fiction) that follow the idea of emotional safety in sexual intimacy. Anyone know of this kind of thing?

I'm genuinely curious what you guys think or know about. Let me know!

ALSO: IF YOU COME IN HERE TO INSULT OR BELITTLE OTHER HUMAN BEINGS FOR THEIR BELIEFS, WHETHER THEY AGREE WITH YOU, ME, OR OTHERS, LEAVE NOW. THIS IS NOT THAT DISCUSSION.

Whether you agree with me or not, I'd be interested in your input and reasoning. Politely, though, please!

[Menarker]

How specific would you define "private creations"? Because there are a few stories in my head (visual novels and manga mainly) that I imagine would qualify.

And yes, porn has a tendency to be displayed explotively, especially as far as the 'actors' involved are concerned. I'd imagine that with porn being regarded as a form of perversity in people, healthy and loving couple would be fearful of social scorn and retaliation if they put out a porn of themselves, even if the content is heartwarming. That is of course, assuming they aren't possessively protective of having their significant other being possibly used as masturbational activities by strangers. At the very worst, a significant other could be stalked and/or physically assaulted by someone who views the work and not be satisfied with that alone. Some people might use the porn as blackmail material to coerce one of the couple, lest the blackmailer expose it to the public, possibly more specifically to places of employment, social circles and places that the couple doesn't want exposed.
On the other hand, exploitive works are much easier to find because they are done by people who don't care about the public notice (or even revel in it), doing it for the sex or money, or because they are actually victims of people who trusted their videos to be kept secret but had their videos leaked by a vengeful or unfaithful lover (or hacked by someone else) by which at that point, it's becomes pretty much impossible to take back anymore.
There is also fact that protective acts such as the use of condoms seems to be largely absent in such works, seemingly promoting a high-risk/reward sexual fantasy, where STDs are mysteriously not a part of life.

In contrast with fictional animated/drawn works, it's easier (as far as I know anyhow) to depict a loving relationship due to the 'actors' involved being entirely fictional and having much less to worry about that sort of backlash (as opposed to real life actors with their bodies and faces that could be recognized outside of the work). There is also more time and emphasis on the story leading up to that point, so we become more emotionally invested in why they feel for each other. Most porn tends to be just the depiction of sex, while truly intimate work tends to recognize that real romance usually requires that certain investment in time, support and occasional emotional struggle and heart-ache. This would take much more time and work and you can't be sure that people looking for porn won't just skip straight to it, making the build-up effort mostly wasted if the porn was the only reason that draws people to view it. So porn tends to either be the key focus (and thus it becomes economical to make it the only bit), or it becomes tangential (but possibly still important) to the real core of the work, the relationship (with all its struggles and triumphs) between individuals. (I say individuals because romance does not usually exist in a vacuum of only the couple, but also involves the romantic rivals, their support/friends and that sort of thing)
Also, fictional works like manga tend to get away with depicting "loving relationships" in socially illegal and impractical/wishfulfilling but sexually titillating ways, like harem stories which begs you to entertain the protagonist being able to romantically handle multiple partners and having them be eventually accepting bigamy (officially illegal in most cultures) instead of becoming jealously possessive or leaving for other guys that'd be happy to have them as their one and only partner. Such plots also conveniently ignore the various practical costs such as trying to raise such a house-hold for the relationship/sex portion of the story. The groceries bills would be staggering for a harem scenario! Also, porns are likely done in multiple takes (taking the best of the batch of each cuts) to exaggarate things like the actor/lover's stamina or expertise, which I imagine rarely is that seamlessly done in one take in real life. Fumbles and screw-ups are part of the sexual experience in real life, people!

Another interesting side effect, is how some careers and jobs like teachers, celebrities to children-early teen shows/movies and such give extrascrutiny for viewing porn, (I mean the semi-socially acceptable sort. Child porn justly deserves that scrutiny) being in night-clubs and engaging in other questionable but legitimate adult activities during their off hours, as if the duties and requirement of your job applies off-hours even during your private time. TVtropes discussed this issue as well!

(And I'd take it as a personal favor if your response to me in particular focus more on the media aspect and secular matters as I'm a heavy misotheist and would almost surely be contrary to matters focusing on religion in any favorable light, but would like to engage in this discussion on the matter with a degree of cordial respect. I'll do the same in not bringing in and bashing religion, even though I feel it has some roots in why people treat porn the way it is. I'm self-aware that I'm aggressive in my dislike for religion and I want you to at least be aware of that.)

PS: I haven't watched the video as I'm largely hard of hearing and most videos on the internet sadly don't have captioning for the hard of hearing.

[phil_]

Hm. There's some stuff in there I hadn't thought about in a long, long time. Thanks for the link, tactics, and thanks for the phrase "diabolic sperm rituals" to describe most porn.

[Aerozord]

I'm of the mind that while porn has its ugly side, its not inherently bad. Porn is still fantasy, and as long as it is actual fantasy (I wouldn't classify recordings of actual sexual assault porn for the same reason I wouldn't classify video of brutal murder a suspense-thriller).

I'd say the only real danger is fetishizing things. I mean the psychological definition of fetish, something not sexual that becomes arousing due to your mind associating that thing with sex. Normally this isn't bad, stockings turn you on big deal, but certain scenarios or situations could be problematic.

In other words I dont think we should make giant sweeping generalizations. Depends alot of its content and the mindset of the person viewing it.

[phil_]

Originally Posted by Aerozord

In other words I dont think we should make giant sweeping generalizations. Depends alot of its content and the mindset of the person viewing it.

I feel pretty comfortable making a giant sweeping generalization that most pornographic videos are "silent man/men stick penis in woman who may or may not be constantly shouting expletives, directed such that penis + hole never leaves frame." And I agree with Ran that it warps people's view of what sex is/should be. And neither of those things necessarily mean I'm calling porn inherently bad. I just think it's obvious (and maybe it isn't, I don't have statistics) that the ugly side completely drowns out the theoretical, life-affirming, uplifting porn that must exist somewhere because internet.

While I'm here, I appreciate that you recognize that porn can shape people's preferences as shown by your fetish paragraph. Have you considered going further and recognizing that crying, screaming, choking, etc. aren't inherently sexy even though most pornography strongly suggests that those things are sexy? And that by doing so it likely makes those things sexy to people who consume porn, as evidenced by the persistence of those themes in mainstream, don't-even-have-to-go-looking-for-it porno? I'm not even bringing up my own ideas here, I'm just repeating Ran, but perhaps you should think about it.

[Aerozord]

Originally Posted by phil_

I feel pretty comfortable making a giant sweeping generalization that most pornographic videos are "silent man/men stick penis in woman who may or may not be constantly shouting expletives, directed such that penis + hole never leaves frame." And I agree with Ran that it warps people's view of what sex is/should be. And neither of those things necessarily mean I'm calling porn inherently bad. I just think it's obvious (and maybe it isn't, I don't have statistics) that the ugly side completely drowns out the theoretical, life-affirming, uplifting porn that must exist somewhere because internet.

Most porn you have ready access to is just, generic rutting. There is little to no context and just thrusting and groaning. Its the most primal base type of sex and is mainstream because penis in vagina is literal definition of sexual intercourse and thus the most widely relatable.

Originally Posted by phil_

While I'm here, I appreciate that you recognize that porn can shape people's preferences as shown by your fetish paragraph. Have you considered going further and recognizing that crying, screaming, choking, etc. aren't inherently sexy even though most pornography strongly suggests that those things are sexy? And that by doing so it likely makes those things sexy to people who consume porn, as evidenced by the persistence of those themes in mainstream, don't-even-have-to-go-looking-for-it porno? I'm not even bringing up my own ideas here, I'm just repeating Ran, but perhaps you should think about it.

yea, isn't that what I just said?

Though I dont know what porn you are looking at, if I go to a porn streaming site and click a random video crying and choking isn't typically what shows up. For that reason if someone is actively looking for that, chances are they were already interested in such things.

Really I think general media fetishizes things more since its more continual passive exposure where porn is normally something one actively seeks out.

[Krylo]

I will say that I agree with a lot of his observations, but I don't agree with his solution of just not watching porn for a couple reasons.

Firstly, and really most importantly, is the fact that removing himself from contributing isn't just removing himself from contributing to abuse. It's removing himself, as someone who prefers healthy porn, from contributing to demand.

Basically, let's use an allegory of video games. Let's say you (correctly) believe that the vast majority of video games are misogynistic, violent, racist, and just generally have a lot of bad views espoused in them, often times just as part of the world. You further, correctly, realize that the only way you really have to communicate with companies is with how you spend your money, so you conclude that the proper response is to stop buying and playing video games altogether.

Sound logic.

Except that now video game companies don't care about you. You're a lost customer and as long as you've decided to not buy any video games ever there's nothing they can do to get your money. All those people that didn't care about the misogyny, racism, and violence, (or worse, liked it) though? Oh, those people still have money, and those people are still giving them money. Those people don't guy games with strong female protagonists, or with minority leads, or created with non-violent mechanics, etc. etc. because those people don't care.

So what the industry sees, instead of a reason to make more games with minority leads, etc. etc. is a reason to stop making them. The people who wanted them quit buying games.

On the other hand, if you buy fewer games with problematic shit, and more that move toward a more equal future (even if they aren't perfect, and god knows they aren't), then companies see an impetuous to make more games with strong minority leads, etc. etc. and thus do so.

Porn is the same.

If you (the you in this case being someone who likes healthy sexual relationships) walk out the door completely, then the metrics are showing a decrease in watchers of the porn you enjoy, with no change to choke murder rape porn, well, then why would they make more equal pornography or pornography with build up and sensuality?

Answer: They wouldn't. They'd make more of the awful shit.

The idea of just walking away only works if you can convince all the people who don't care about your argument for equality to step away. As that's not going to happen, there will always be a demand, and so long as that's true, the people who want porn that isn't what the mainstream primarily pumps out really should be making their voices heard to create that porn. The people who want fair treatment of actresses should be making their voices heard on that.

And furthermore, getting people to step away from porn entirely, because it's bad for society (which in its current conception it probably is) will only make life harder for porn actresses. The less acceptable porn becomes, the less socially acceptable the people who are in it become, and the less able they'll be to move out of it if they want to. The fewer alternate paths will be open to them.

So, basically stepping away entirely, as a group will only result in worse porn that does worse things to people and worse conditions for actors and actresses who will have a more difficult time freeing themselves from their situations.

BUT not only all of that, but the way porn over rides your desires can be useful.

I sorta kinda agree with Aero that media, in general, has more of a fetishizing effect than porn in particular, in that it's all pervasive and impossible to escape (unless you go live off the land in a cave somewhere).

However, Porn pavlovs like a motherfucker. Any time you masturbate to something and get off, your brain connects whatever images and thoughts were going on to pleasure.

Which is dangerous, yes. It can cause all that shit the guy in the video was talking about. But it can also be used to make yourself more open to body types, ideas, fetishes, etc. Like, let's say, for instance you find someone you really like, but then you find out she has a foot fetish. Pretty common, but not your thing at all. You think feet are kinda gross. But you want to make her happy, so you go home, fire up the old porn site, whatever gets you going. . . but first you load up a foot fetish video in another window. Then you get yourself to the point where unless something really untoward happens, you're going to get where you're going. . . and swap over to the foot fetish video. Do that a few times, soon you don't need the 'normal' stuff to get going, and you might not ever get to the point where foot stuff is like, your preferred thing, but you can probably get to the point that sucking your girlfriend's toes is now something you're cool with.

So, all that said I suggest an alternative to his proposed solution of not watching porn:

Don't masturbate to anything you're uncomfortable being attracted to.

In the age of the internet you can find any porn you want. Loving, caressing porn is out there. I suggest checking the 'for women' or lesbian sections of porn sites. Watch that.

I, personally, get the most enjoyment out of the starts of porns, whatever lead up they do put in. If there's no making out or caressing and teasing before it starts I usually can't enjoy it. And yet I manage to find plenty of porn with that.

Though that's because I've learned where to look. There's types I won't watch. If something has a Brazzers logo, for instance, I just close it. I don't know if it's still the case, but back in the day that meant the most mainstream boring no touching plastic as shit porn you could get.

If it gets too violent, or anyone doesn't seem like they're enjoying themselves, I close it.

If it's just really really weird, I close it.

And, maybe it's just me being defensive because, well, I consume a lot of pornography, but to me that seems like a healthier way, both for the industry/society, and for myself, to deal with it.

I feel like moving back into a 'no porn' movement will quickly reinforce a lot of conservative views about sex and sexuality and when and where and how it's okay, and isn't how to 'fix' problems at all, but more just a way to toss a quick band aid over them, paying no attention to how much things are festering, regardless.

[Kim]

Anti-porn attitudes tend to hurt porn actresses more than they hurt the people who actually produce shitty porn. Also worth noting that due to shitty beauty standards that aren't exclusive to porn trans women have to advertise ourselves using awful fetishistic terms, black and asian women have to advertise themselves as "exotic" and shit like that.

I don't believe in the voting with your wallet ideology because it's usually not a viable strategy for groups who don't have the numbers to be really listened to regardless of whether or not they support something, but in cases of like indie porn or individual actors/actresses who aren't well known, your support can do a lot. It can help them afford basic needs, or even things they need to keep producing porn. Stuff like putting together a set and whatnot cost money.

So, rather than dismissing all porn as bad, support good porn and support porn actors and actresses for whom your support can make a real difference.

Also, keep in mind, like even kinks and stuff you think are bad have people who are into them from the other side of things. Rapey porn can reinforce shitty stuff, but there are also women who watch porn and make porn who have rape fantasies where they're the victim. In fact, that's super common.

The UK banned a lot of porn it deems harmful recently, and apart from its standards being super sexist (like female ejaculation and facesitting being banned), stuff like porn involving beating women and stuff doesn't just cater to misogynists who like beating women but to women who get off on being beaten and that sort of thing.

As long as its consensual, even if it's presented as otherwise, it should be allowed.

[tacticslion]

Originally Posted by Menarker

How specific would you define "private creations"? Because there are a few stories in my head (visual novels and manga mainly) that I imagine would qualify.

See, that's a good question, and the reason I asked in the first place, is because, frankly, I just don't know. I'm not into that sort of thing (and have worked to avoid it since High School, despite it's ubiquity though ultimately, I've not been able to), so I'm honestly just not knowledgeable. (Similarly, Krylo, I've no idea what a "Brazzers logo" is, but I'll almost definitely close it!)

So that's pretty much exclusively why I'm asking. My experience, what I've had, has all shown it to be degrading, frustrating, and misogynistic. I... hate... that sort of thing. Hate it. Almost every example I've seen tends toward that, too, which is frustrating.

I suppose to some extent, I'm also asking about the various categories of pornographic material, or erotica, or hentai (is that different than porn, other than denoting that it's Japanese-inspired drawn work?), ecchi (a specific thing with tentacles, I think?), and so on. As in: what are they? Does any particular category tend toward less abuse than others? If so, why? How?

Originally Posted by Menarker

And yes, porn has a tendency to be displayed explotively, especially as far as the 'actors' involved are concerned. I'd imagine that with porn being regarded as a form of perversity in people, healthy and loving couple would be fearful of social scorn and retaliation if they put out a porn of themselves, even if the content is heartwarming. That is of course, assuming they aren't possessively protective of having their significant other being possibly used as masturbational activities by strangers. At the very worst, a significant other could be stalked and/or physically assaulted by someone who views the work and not be satisfied with that alone. Some people might use the porn as blackmail material to coerce one of the couple, lest the blackmailer expose it to the public, possibly more specifically to places of employment, social circles and places that the couple doesn't want exposed.
On the other hand, exploitive works are much easier to find because they are done by people who don't care about the public notice (or even revel in it), doing it for the sex or money, or because they are actually victims of people who trusted their videos to be kept secret but had their videos leaked by a vengeful or unfaithful lover (or hacked by someone else) by which at that point, it's becomes pretty much impossible to take back anymore.
There is also fact that protective acts such as the use of condoms seems to be largely absent in such works, seemingly promoting a high-risk/reward sexual fantasy, where STDs are mysteriously not a part of life.

This... is a lot of really well-thought-out stuff and solid reasons why live-action is a bit of a bear in that regard. Also, you proceeded right on to talk about my next question...

Originally Posted by Menarker

In contrast with fictional animated/drawn works, it's easier (as far as I know anyhow) to depict a loving relationship due to the 'actors' involved being entirely fictional and having much less to worry about that sort of backlash (as opposed to real life actors with their bodies and faces that could be recognized outside of the work). There is also more time and emphasis on the story leading up to that point, so we become more emotionally invested in why they feel for each other. Most porn tends to be just the depiction of sex, while truly intimate work tends to recognize that real romance usually requires that certain investment in time, support and occasional emotional struggle and heart-ache. This would take much more time and work and you can't be sure that people looking for porn won't just skip straight to it, making the build-up effort mostly wasted if the porn was the only reason that draws people to view it. So porn tends to either be the key focus (and thus it becomes economical to make it the only bit), or it becomes tangential (but possibly still important) to the real core of the work, the relationship (with all its struggles and triumphs) between individuals. (I say individuals because romance does not usually exist in a vacuum of only the couple, but also involves the romantic rivals, their support/friends and that sort of thing)
Also, fictional works like manga tend to get away with depicting "loving relationships" in socially illegal and impractical/wishfulfilling but sexually titillating ways, like harem stories which begs you to entertain the protagonist being able to romantically handle multiple partners and having them be eventually accepting bigamy (officially illegal in most cultures) instead of becoming jealously possessive or leaving for other guys that'd be happy to have them as their one and only partner. Such plots also conveniently ignore the various practical costs such as trying to raise such a house-hold for the relationship/sex portion of the story. The groceries bills would be staggering for a harem scenario! Also, porns are likely done in multiple takes (taking the best of the batch of each cuts) to exaggarate things like the actor/lover's stamina or expertise, which I imagine rarely is that seamlessly done in one take in real life. Fumbles and screw-ups are part of the sexual experience in real life, people!

(Yes, a thousand times to the last line. 100% correct, and part of the awesomeness of intimacy, actually.)

I tend to agree. I think this is more along the lines of what I tend to "imagine" when I think of "clean" porn - those loving build-up stories, the things that have all the stuff that he mentioned was missing.

But one of the problems is that even when it seems like there are plenty of good places for that sort of thing, even when the space is available, you've got stuff like Newgrounds which (at least all the stuff I'd ever looked at there), ultimately, just relies on rather standard misogynistic crap.

I recall at least two of those "choose your own adventure" kind of things where the story revolved around a guy who slept with several girls, yet got insanely jealous if one of them even thought of dating another male character. What? I mean, he was even a deadbeat father, but that didn't matter, as that girl better not be "cheating" on him! ...? It's just... terrible double-standard ugh-ness.

See, again, Song of Solomon is pretty great. There's a whole relationship built up there, and the story of the Bride and her Love is really touching. There are hang-ups and difficulties that they go through, struggles that they each have to face, and ups and downs.

While Song of Solomon isn't a riveting piece of erotica (I'd imagine few find Hebraic poetry translated to English a masturbatory aid), it's still a solid, erotic story of two lovers coming to know each other and spend time with each other despite their problems and difficulties. (Also, going by older interpretations, Ruth, of Ruth fame, is a lot more... forward... than many modern Christians tend to visualize. Heh. "Uncovered his feet" indeed.)

Originally Posted by Menarker

Another interesting side effect, is how some careers and jobs like teachers, celebrities to children-early teen shows/movies and such give extrascrutiny for viewing porn, (I mean the semi-socially acceptable sort. Child porn justly deserves that scrutiny) being in night-clubs and engaging in other questionable but legitimate adult activities during their off hours, as if the duties and requirement of your job applies off-hours even during your private time. TVtropes discussed this issue as well!

This is one thing I'm not entirely sure I agree with you about (or maybe I do, I dunno yet). I think, to a certain extent, there is a valid concern here.

Whether or not that concern has the appropriate line drawn on it at present, I can't and won't say, but the idea that any individual who places themselves into children's lives receives scrutiny for their private actions seems not only wise to me for the sake of protecting those kids (or other adults, depending on your line of work), but also kind of par for the course. Again, perhaps the lines are currently incorrectly drawn - I'm not sure they are.

But the idea that there is a social contract one enters to be "extra squeaky clean" (whatever that means, relative to a given society) when entering certain lines of work fundamentally makes sense to me. It's the nature of the office(s) assumed. Trust is placed into folk, and thus they need to be proven trustworthy, as it were.

Originally Posted by Menarker

(And I'd take it as a personal favor if your response to me in particular focus more on the media aspect and secular matters as I'm a heavy misotheist and would almost surely be contrary to matters focusing on religion in any favorable light, but would like to engage in this discussion on the matter with a degree of cordial respect. I'll do the same in not bringing in and bashing religion, even though I feel it has some roots in why people treat porn the way it is. I'm self-aware that I'm aggressive in my dislike for religion and I want you to at least be aware of that.)

Thank you for your honesty, and I'm certainly not going to fuss at you. I will simply note that both of us would like the others' position to change, and, given that understanding, let us walk together as far as our roads may go in the same direction before necessarily diverging. (We're cool.)

Originally Posted by Menarker

PS: I haven't watched the video as I'm largely hard of hearing and most videos on the internet sadly don't have captioning for the hard of hearing.

That video does! It looks well done, too, at a glance, so I'd recommend it, if you get the chance.

Originally Posted by phil_

Hm. There's some stuff in there I hadn't thought about in a long, long time. Thanks for the link, tactics, and thanks for the phrase "diabolic sperm rituals" to describe most porn.

Yeah, it reminded me of things that I'd just kind of forgotten or not thought about. I'm glad it's helpful. And that is a great phrase!

Originally Posted by Krylo

I will say that I agree with a lot of his observations, but I don't agree with his solution of just not watching porn for a couple reasons.

Firstly, and really most importantly, is the fact that removing himself from contributing isn't just removing himself from contributing to abuse. It's removing himself, as someone who prefers healthy porn, from contributing to demand.

Basically, let's use an allegory of video games. Let's say you (correctly) believe that the vast majority of video games are misogynistic, violent, racist, and just generally have a lot of bad views espoused in them, often times just as part of the world. You further, correctly, realize that the only way you really have to communicate with companies is with how you spend your money, so you conclude that the proper response is to stop buying and playing video games altogether.

Sound logic.

Except that now video game companies don't care about you. You're a lost customer and as long as you've decided to not buy any video games ever there's nothing they can do to get your money. All those people that didn't care about the misogyny, racism, and violence, (or worse, liked it) though? Oh, those people still have money, and those people are still giving them money. Those people don't guy games with strong female protagonists, or with minority leads, or created with non-violent mechanics, etc. etc. because those people don't care.

So what the industry sees, instead of a reason to make more games with minority leads, etc. etc. is a reason to stop making them. The people who wanted them quit buying games.

On the other hand, if you buy fewer games with problematic shit, and more that move toward a more equal future (even if they aren't perfect, and god knows they aren't), then companies see an impetuous to make more games with strong minority leads, etc. etc. and thus do so.

Porn is the same.

If you (the you in this case being someone who likes healthy sexual relationships) walk out the door completely, then the metrics are showing a decrease in watchers of the porn you enjoy, with no change to choke murder rape porn, well, then why would they make more equal pornography or pornography with build up and sensuality?

Answer: They wouldn't. They'd make more of the awful shit.

The idea of just walking away only works if you can convince all the people who don't care about your argument for equality to step away. As that's not going to happen, there will always be a demand, and so long as that's true, the people who want porn that isn't what the mainstream primarily pumps out really should be making their voices heard to create that porn. The people who want fair treatment of actresses should be making their voices heard on that.

And furthermore, getting people to step away from porn entirely, because it's bad for society (which in its current conception it probably is) will only make life harder for porn actresses. The less acceptable porn becomes, the less socially acceptable the people who are in it become, and the less able they'll be to move out of it if they want to. The fewer alternate paths will be open to them.

So, basically stepping away entirely, as a group will only result in worse porn that does worse things to people and worse conditions for actors and actresses who will have a more difficult time freeing themselves from their situations.

This is actually a good point, and one of the reasons I asked in the first place. The idea that showing or depicting humans in sexuality is inherently corrupt just kind of rubs me the wrong way (no pun intended). It feels incorrect, and thus I'm asking those who are more well versed in the genre and... I dunno... sub-culture?... activity?... what'cha'call'it?... about what they know of and are aware of. Are there better areas to look, and better areas to steer away from? What say you?

My wife and I enjoy sexy stories. (Duh, you know?)

But the thing is, everything out there presents this face of... blech... everywhere. It presents this seemingly insurmountable homogeneous block of awful. Added to that, one has to consider the desires of our partners (which you touch on, but which I'll pick up on later, below).

Originally Posted by Krylo

BUT not only all of that, but the way porn over rides your desires can be useful.

I sorta kinda agree with Aero that media, in general, has more of a fetishizing effect than porn in particular, in that it's all pervasive and impossible to escape (unless you go live off the land in a cave somewhere).

However, Porn pavlovs like a motherfucker. Any time you masturbate to something and get off, your brain connects whatever images and thoughts were going on to pleasure.

Which is dangerous, yes. It can cause all that shit the guy in the video was talking about. But it can also be used to make yourself more open to body types, ideas, fetishes, etc. Like, let's say, for instance you find someone you really like, but then you find out she has a foot fetish. Pretty common, but not your thing at all. You think feet are kinda gross. But you want to make her happy, so you go home, fire up the old porn site, whatever gets you going. . . but first you load up a foot fetish video in another window. Then you get yourself to the point where unless something really untoward happens, you're going to get where you're going. . . and swap over to the foot fetish video. Do that a few times, soon you don't need the 'normal' stuff to get going, and you might not ever get to the point where foot stuff is like, your preferred thing, but you can probably get to the point that sucking your girlfriend's toes is now something you're cool with.

(Hahah, nice pun.)

This is actually really cool insight into something, and is an interesting and skilled way of manipulating both yourself and your own interests. Fascinating.

This does lead to one other question about partner preferences, which, again, I'll breach below...

Originally Posted by Krylo

So, all that said I suggest an alternative to his proposed solution of not watching porn:

Don't masturbate to anything you're uncomfortable being attracted to.

In the age of the internet you can find any porn you want. Loving, caressing porn is out there. I suggest checking the 'for women' or lesbian sections of porn sites. Watch that.

... first, the fact that there is a "for women" sections of porn sites is... news to me. Cool news, to be sure!

The fact that it seems to be funneled into "for women" and "lesbian" however is... uh, well, huh. It's... kind of sad.

It displays a very sexist view of what is an is not "normal" for people to view. And how to developing kids - boys, growing and coming across those kinds of things - respond to that kind of stuff? It actually negatively reinforces that "these things* are not for men" which, you know, is awful.

That's one of the most powerful things to me, as a father: I know - for a fact - that my sons will, at some point or another - come across pornographic material. It's going to happen, and I'm aware of it. No, I'm not going to introduce them to it... but I do want to know what does and does not exist. What's out there? Is there anything good or worthwhile, or has it already descended into a pile of empty crap? Are certain types of erotic creations "safer" to engage in than others? (The answer: "of course", so the follow-up Which ones?

As a husband, I also have to be concerned with my wife's comfort, security, and interests.

We take nothing of the sexually explicit material from the huge free deposits on the grand and free internet, but in part that's because most of what does show up in the middle of other things is simply not appealing for any number of reasons, from ethical, moral, religious, or personal taste (and mostly acting like a kind of Venn Diagram circling all four categories).

But as a husband, the kinds of things that I allow myself to consume or contemplate on - the kinds of things that I bend myself toward - need to be those kinds of things that leave my wife feeling secure and loved. The very kinds of things that allow her to enjoy as well.

{{ASIDE: Sexuality is very, very mental. This is obvious, sure, but a lot of people just kind of focus on the physical or even emotional side of sexuality; the fact is, there is a huge amount of mental discipline, thought, and contemplation involved. What you meditate on is more like what you become or desire.}}

I do that because I want her and I to engage in things that make her feel comfortable. Like what Krylo was saying with the foot-fetish thing - what makes her happy? How can I lean myself toward those things? What makes her uncomfortable? How can I lean myself away from those things?

I think this whole thing, to me, comes down to that. Is there pornographic material that can actually help (instead of hinder) a loving relationship? Is there anything out there that isn't exploitative? Apparently. But apparently, you have to walk through the barriers of "it's not for your gender or sexuality" to get there, which is a real shame.

* The whole "romance" or "emotional relationship" type stuff.

Originally Posted by Krylo

I, personally, get the most enjoyment out of the starts of porns, whatever lead up they do put in. If there's no making out or caressing and teasing before it starts I usually can't enjoy it. And yet I manage to find plenty of porn with that.

Though that's because I've learned where to look. There's types I won't watch. If something has a Brazzers logo, for instance, I just close it. I don't know if it's still the case, but back in the day that meant the most mainstream boring no touching plastic as shit porn you could get.

If it gets too violent, or anyone doesn't seem like they're enjoying themselves, I close it.

If it's just really really weird, I close it.

And, maybe it's just me being defensive because, well, I consume a lot of pornography, but to me that seems like a healthier way, both for the industry/society, and for myself, to deal with it.

This is more or less what I was getting at with my OP. I don't think that sexually explicit content is evil inherently. I think it has its place, and I think it can be useful for deepening relationships. I don't think most of it is that way, however, and I think the majority is probably actively harmful to many.

Originally Posted by Krylo

I feel like moving back into a 'no porn' movement will quickly reinforce a lot of conservative views about sex and sexuality and when and where and how it's okay, and isn't how to 'fix' problems at all, but more just a way to toss a quick band aid over them, paying no attention to how much things are festering, regardless.

Well, I am conservative after all...

But the thing is, I actually get where the guy is coming from. Given that it's exceedingly exploitative, the negative and terrible conditions, and the myriad of other problems involved, it can easily feel like it's already a lost cause. And, for some, I would say it's absolutely necessary to get out entirely.

Alcoholics need to stay away from where alcohol is served for their own good. I think there can easily be a similar situation for certain kinds of individuals. That said, those who have no alcohol problem don't need to worry about it, and should feel free to imbibe responsibly.

And that last word I think is key to all of this: responsibly.

Where is the line? What can one do responsibly, and how can one engage in responsible behavior, socially, within the context of sexually explicit material? Actions? Etc.?

[Nique]

I think the subtext of this kind of criticism is and always has been that 'you should only engage in married, procreative sex and finding anything else sexy is an abberation'.

As bad and male-serving as porn is, puritanical views on sex are probably more actually harmful to women. There are all kinds of "Kinks", many even featured in porn that focus on female pleasure (which often requires more than simple 'P goes in V' sex).

Like... Kim mentioned rape fantasies and that's just one of many examples of power exchanges that some people really enjoy. There are subtle but important differences between wanting to actually control/ be controlled and the kind of power fantasies of BDSM.