Pokemon Umbral Discussion 25: Pokegeddon Returns - Page 6

Dracorion · 06-01-2010, 05:20 PM

Clearly, you didn't play it defensively enough.

If Psych Up isn't worth using like you seem to be saying, then why do you want to use it?

Menarker · 06-01-2010, 05:34 PM

It's a risk that was made. I still came out ahead, but things could have gotten much worse. (Also, the benefit of Dormond's power boost was on your side because I sent him your way. If he stayed in my location, I probably would have seen a bigger reward.)

Also, like you said, it wasn't defensive at the time. The previous attempt was a fast risky powerful boost meant to not only knock down some trouble pokemons, but also shoot down their morale gauge. (Now that I think of it, there was additional rewards of making them flee faster due to that, but it required care and building up on) Snorlax attack stat DID go up, but its defense didn't. So it was a high chance that he would be knocked out sooner if not later (mainly because foes would jump at the chance to off him)

This time, Defense is being amped up (at first anyhow). Knocking Mollesk will be damn difficult to achieve and thus the benefits will last longer, even after using Power Trick. Same after using Psych Up with Umbreon (The second strongest defensive powerhouse). The defensive boost will help ensure that the benefits last longer and that the eventual rewards be plentiful if I watch my steps carefully.

Dracorion · 06-01-2010, 05:37 PM

Wouldn't Mollesk's Defense be reduced to 100? If that's not enough Attack, I can't see why it'd suddenly be enough Defense.

Mollesk would get one attack before being assraped.

Menarker · 06-01-2010, 05:53 PM

Attached to a 75 power move that is further weakened to 75% of its power due to the rules of multi-pokemon battles, 100 Attack isn't that good.

100 Defence however is akin to the defence of Blastoise, Palkia, Slaking and other powerhouses.
Plus, Mollesk has:
High Hitpoints (118, which is absurdly high. Arceus only has 120 and there are few pokemons that hit hitpoints that high without sacrificing other stats. Only 14 evolved pokemons that exist in the game has hitpoint stat above 118.)
Recover to restore half its hitpoints (and as mentioned above, it has tons)
Renny with either the item spread ability or the protect ability.
A fellow pokemon with Follow Me.
The defender item which let it cast Recover for free every 3 turns.
It can double its defence again after Power Trick.

Basically, Attack/Special Attack NEEDS to scale much higher because it has to compete with both the DEF/SDEF AND the hitpoint stat at the same time. Also a pokemon can only attack once a turn, but in a group battle like this RP, a pokemon can be hit multiple times. High hitpoints and defence help mitigate this.
Mollesk would have innately HIGH Special defence and hitpoints, and his defence, even after lowering it with power Trick is still almost as high as the most respected legendary, Arecus.

*Goes to grab a video...*

Dracorion · 06-01-2010, 06:01 PM

And you don't think that's wrong.

Anyway, didn't you say you'd be using Psych Up with Umbreon? So you'd get a choice of, A) having two powerhouses, or B) have Togekiss use Follow Me.

You said before that Mollesk's Defense and Sp. Def would be raised to 900 with two turns of Cosmic Power. Which is wrong. It'd only get 690. You could use Cosmic Power for three turns straight and then use Power Trick as your extra move, though. But I'd probably get pissed at you spending yet another turn not attacking.

Also, I'm pretty sure Umbreon's Defense would be reduced as well if it uses Psych Up. Since, y'know, Psych Up copies debuffs and Mollesk's Defense going from 690 to 100 is a pretty big debuff. If we treat it like Umbreon got two +2 stage defense boosts and then used Power Trick, it's Defense would be reduced to 65, which is as much as Snorlax had and you know how that turned out.

So pokemon can only attack once a turn and can be attacked themselves several times. That's why you get allies. I don't think Renny's the kind of guy that would use the team as meatshields while he builds himself into a one-man army.

Geminex · 06-01-2010, 06:23 PM

Could we... stop the Psych-Up discussion? I was under the impression that what we agreed on was that, if you used it on an ally, any ally, the benefits get halved (rounded down). If you use it on an enemy, you get the full effects. I think that's, if anything, still a bit imbalanced, but you all know my stance on psych-up. As it is, unless AB doesn't veto its use, we can't do anything against it, and I don't wanna annoy AB with something that trivial.

In regards to Menarker's strategy: The way this game has developed, its become very quick and violent. I like that, actually.
And the reason it's become quick and violent is less the fact that we can kill all our opponents much more quickly (our numbers are usually equal, and our offensive power is proportional to their defense, usually), but because we can kill individual opponents more quickly. We can look at the enemy formation, select the most valuable targets and focus fire on those. The most important elements of the enemy force, their glass cannons, their supporters, they usually get eliminated within a turn or two. And when that's done, then, barring reinforcements, the battle's either won or lost. And even with enemy reinforcements, once the main formation has been broken up, it's not too hard to deal with reinforcements as they come.

Anyway, my point is that, even when battles take longer, they usually get decided quite early.
Not to mention that Drac's right: Mollesk can, and, mostly likely, will get focus-fired. 100 defense is fine when it's insignificant. But when it has huge attack? It's going to die quite horribly, quite quickly. Mollesk would be a great mon in 1v1 battles, but on the battlefield? Not so much.

But all those points are mere specks of relevance compared to the topic of WHAT THE FUCK WHY YOU POST.
Also
WHAT THE FUCK WHY YOU NOT FOCUS FIRE

Honestly, people.
a) what the hell happened to defensive play
b) did you read what I wrote about their use of items? It explicitely says that Regina has "unidentifiable items".

Ooh, look at us, we're PATCA, and we just loooove seeing the pokemon we damaged get healed right back up again, because focus fire? What's that?

God.
Also, lemme repost Impact's weapon list:
Light:
Claws of Darkness, Strange Parasite
Medium:
Ricewood Rifle, HV rifle
Heavy:
Flamethrower, LH launcher

I can do Ice damage, I could focus down on Altarisect. Probably freeze her too. We can probably do a lot of damage this turn. Probably even enough to kill one or two enemies. But we'd actually have to coordinate to do said damage, not just attack whomever we feel like. God.

Oh, and does anyone remember what attributes Ruin type has? Because I could also kill Lopunnish real easily.

Dracorion · 06-01-2010, 06:32 PM

Hey man, I posted a strategy. It focused fire on three targets. Then Menarker fucked it up by insisting on being an anal nutbag. But if we want by my strategy, two baddies would have died and one would've been left critically damaged so we could see what kinda items they got.

Also, we posted because we didn't want what happened last turn to happen now. Which is no one posted.

I think Ruin-type does quad damage to Fighting.

Also, I could've sworn AB said that Slayers could switch weapons whenever they wanted, Gem. So you should be able to switch to Swarm Bow, no problem.

Menarker, Mollesk's Defense and Special Defense base stats are 230 and those don't change. It's like saying a Pokemon with 680 base stats gets more when it levels up!

Well Menarker, they are mutated Pokesapiens, so it comes to reason they have buffed up defenses. It's proportional because we have the advantage of numbers and no super-pokemon.

Menarker · 06-01-2010, 06:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dracorion

Hey man, I posted a strategy. It focused fire on three targets. Then Menarker fucked it up by insisting on being an anal nutbag. But if we want by my strategy, two baddies would have died and one would've been left critically damaged so we could see what kinda items they got.

Menarker, Mollesk's Defense and Special Defense base stats are 230 and those don't change. It's like saying a Pokemon with 680 base stats gets more when it levels up!

Well, you are insisting on a subpar tactic on my pokemon. Renny's Mollesk is not a primary fighter on the first turn. I had Swampert join in on the focus fire. Plus Gem said to "play defensively". Did that by having one attacker for focus fire and the other buffing up defensively, planning for long term if anything happens. No need to be verbally abusive. I just showing my point of view on how my team works best. I don't sling slurs in your direction.

And yes, all the stats including Defence and Special Defence change (Unless you're Shedninja with hitpoints locked in at 1). Look at the link I posted. EV make the stats go higher than 230. It could go as high as 614 with benefiical nature.

Menarker · 06-01-2010, 06:24 PM

This video shows a level 100 Shuckle being hit by a level 100 Groudon's Earthquake without having done any buffing. Now, keep in mind that Shuckle only has 20 base hitpoints.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hY8S2DA1na0

Also, I was using the base stats as an example as a comparision to all our pokemons. In comparision, Mollesk's DEF and Special Defence and hitpoints are higher than what it shows. Because the base stats that you see in Bulbapedia and Serebii are measured at when a pokemon is level 50. So when I say 230 DEF and SDEF, that's when comparing equal level pokemons at level 50. So technically, Mollesk can hit the 800-900 region sooner as he goes up in level, only needing around 2 Cosmic Power to get around there... (And PATCA's pokemons are around level 70s-80ish?) And I was doing the math with neutral nature stat. It'd be faster/higher with beneficial nature, which AB said might be part of the Pokemon Breeder thing.

http://www.serebii.net/pokedex-dp/213.shtml

As for the Umbreon, I know first hand that it would have 65 DEF if I copied Power Trick. But I could copy the first two Cosmic Power, before I do the Power Trick/Rock Slide thing, then Umbreon would be defensive and focus on confuse ray and recover without dropping in defence. Or if I felt I could manage Follow Me (which Mollesk has) or use Renny's Protect, I have the option of letting Umbreon copy Power Trick for an additional attacker. The options are open if I plan carefully. ^,^

It's not a pancea, but the plan can be switched around and altered based on the changing situation.

EDIT: Gem, in regards to your post, what's wrong with my post? Drac and I had a plan there posted earlier. 5 attackers for each of the 3 targets. There is plenty of focus fire involved. So I have Mollesk do a little buffing in case things go wrong? Still plenty of focus fire involved.

Also, AB said that Lopunnish MIGHT have fighting type. It's not certain. So a ruin weapon is a good idea, but not certain to work as you hope.

Also, their defensive ability is NOT proportional to our offense if we have to pile 3-4 Quad effective attacks to knock them out.

Menarker · 06-01-2010, 06:44 PM

Groudon: Level 100. 150 Attack (one of the god damn highest possible). Earthquake (One of the most powerful Ground type moves ever). STAB bonus.

For that purpose, Groudon does NOT suck.

Shuckle: Level 100 Only 20 base stat for hitpoints (unless it was EV trained for it). Only neutral for resistance. NO BUFFING at the time of attack.

Despite this, Shuckle only took 1/3 hitpoint in damage from the Earthquake.

Compare with Mollesk with the same defence as the above Shuckle but 6 times as much hitpoints.

Mollesk can definately take a hit before buffing and will take MUCH more when buffed.

Anyhow, Gem, I think Drac's plan is a good idea overall.
But I don't think I deserve the particular harrassment Drac is giving me regarding how I choose to handle Mollesk or my role in the plan, especially when I'm looking ahead as to how to use Renny's abilities with the rage he accumulated.

06-01-2010, 05:20 PM	#1
Dracorion Moves Like Jagger, Kupo! Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: To the south, a little to the left... Or to the right. Posts: 4,910	Clearly, you didn't play it defensively enough. If Psych Up isn't worth using like you seem to be saying, then why do you want to use it? __________________ Dracorion's dumbass color is Royal Blue. If you see that color, you better run the fuck away.

06-01-2010, 05:34 PM	#2
Menarker OMG! WHAT SHOULD I DO NOW? Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 3,802	It's a risk that was made. I still came out ahead, but things could have gotten much worse. (Also, the benefit of Dormond's power boost was on your side because I sent him your way. If he stayed in my location, I probably would have seen a bigger reward.) Also, like you said, it wasn't defensive at the time. The previous attempt was a fast risky powerful boost meant to not only knock down some trouble pokemons, but also shoot down their morale gauge. (Now that I think of it, there was additional rewards of making them flee faster due to that, but it required care and building up on) Snorlax attack stat DID go up, but its defense didn't. So it was a high chance that he would be knocked out sooner if not later (mainly because foes would jump at the chance to off him) This time, Defense is being amped up (at first anyhow). Knocking Mollesk will be damn difficult to achieve and thus the benefits will last longer, even after using Power Trick. Same after using Psych Up with Umbreon (The second strongest defensive powerhouse). The defensive boost will help ensure that the benefits last longer and that the eventual rewards be plentiful if I watch my steps carefully. __________________ THE BIO OF RENNY TRESSERHORN THE BIOs OF POKEMON UMBRAL!

06-01-2010, 05:37 PM	#3
Dracorion Moves Like Jagger, Kupo! Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: To the south, a little to the left... Or to the right. Posts: 4,910	Wouldn't Mollesk's Defense be reduced to 100? If that's not enough Attack, I can't see why it'd suddenly be enough Defense. Mollesk would get one attack before being assraped. __________________ Dracorion's dumbass color is Royal Blue. If you see that color, you better run the fuck away.

06-01-2010, 05:53 PM	#4
Menarker OMG! WHAT SHOULD I DO NOW? Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 3,802	Attached to a 75 power move that is further weakened to 75% of its power due to the rules of multi-pokemon battles, 100 Attack isn't that good. 100 Defence however is akin to the defence of Blastoise, Palkia, Slaking and other powerhouses. Plus, Mollesk has: High Hitpoints (118, which is absurdly high. Arceus only has 120 and there are few pokemons that hit hitpoints that high without sacrificing other stats. Only 14 evolved pokemons that exist in the game has hitpoint stat above 118.) Recover to restore half its hitpoints (and as mentioned above, it has tons) Renny with either the item spread ability or the protect ability. A fellow pokemon with Follow Me. The defender item which let it cast Recover for free every 3 turns. It can double its defence again after Power Trick. Basically, Attack/Special Attack NEEDS to scale much higher because it has to compete with both the DEF/SDEF AND the hitpoint stat at the same time. Also a pokemon can only attack once a turn, but in a group battle like this RP, a pokemon can be hit multiple times. High hitpoints and defence help mitigate this. Mollesk would have innately HIGH Special defence and hitpoints, and his defence, even after lowering it with power Trick is still almost as high as the most respected legendary, Arecus. Goes to grab a video... __________________ THE BIO OF RENNY TRESSERHORN THE BIOs OF POKEMON UMBRAL! Last edited by Menarker; 06-01-2010 at 05:57 PM.

06-01-2010, 06:01 PM	#5
Dracorion Moves Like Jagger, Kupo! Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: To the south, a little to the left... Or to the right. Posts: 4,910	And you don't think that's wrong. Anyway, didn't you say you'd be using Psych Up with Umbreon? So you'd get a choice of, A) having two powerhouses, or B) have Togekiss use Follow Me. You said before that Mollesk's Defense and Sp. Def would be raised to 900 with two turns of Cosmic Power. Which is wrong. It'd only get 690. You could use Cosmic Power for three turns straight and then use Power Trick as your extra move, though. But I'd probably get pissed at you spending yet another turn not attacking. Also, I'm pretty sure Umbreon's Defense would be reduced as well if it uses Psych Up. Since, y'know, Psych Up copies debuffs and Mollesk's Defense going from 690 to 100 is a pretty big debuff. If we treat it like Umbreon got two +2 stage defense boosts and then used Power Trick, it's Defense would be reduced to 65, which is as much as Snorlax had and you know how that turned out. So pokemon can only attack once a turn and can be attacked themselves several times. That's why you get allies. I don't think Renny's the kind of guy that would use the team as meatshields while he builds himself into a one-man army. __________________ Dracorion's dumbass color is Royal Blue. If you see that color, you better run the fuck away.

06-01-2010, 06:23 PM	#6
Geminex SOM3WH3R3 Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 4,606	Could we... stop the Psych-Up discussion? I was under the impression that what we agreed on was that, if you used it on an ally, any ally, the benefits get halved (rounded down). If you use it on an enemy, you get the full effects. I think that's, if anything, still a bit imbalanced, but you all know my stance on psych-up. As it is, unless AB doesn't veto its use, we can't do anything against it, and I don't wanna annoy AB with something that trivial. In regards to Menarker's strategy: The way this game has developed, its become very quick and violent. I like that, actually. And the reason it's become quick and violent is less the fact that we can kill all our opponents much more quickly (our numbers are usually equal, and our offensive power is proportional to their defense, usually), but because we can kill individual opponents more quickly. We can look at the enemy formation, select the most valuable targets and focus fire on those. The most important elements of the enemy force, their glass cannons, their supporters, they usually get eliminated within a turn or two. And when that's done, then, barring reinforcements, the battle's either won or lost. And even with enemy reinforcements, once the main formation has been broken up, it's not too hard to deal with reinforcements as they come. Anyway, my point is that, even when battles take longer, they usually get decided quite early. Not to mention that Drac's right: Mollesk can, and, mostly likely, will get focus-fired. 100 defense is fine when it's insignificant. But when it has huge attack? It's going to die quite horribly, quite quickly. Mollesk would be a great mon in 1v1 battles, but on the battlefield? Not so much. But all those points are mere specks of relevance compared to the topic of WHAT THE FUCK WHY YOU POST. Also WHAT THE FUCK WHY YOU NOT FOCUS FIRE Honestly, people. a) what the hell happened to defensive play b) did you read what I wrote about their use of items? It explicitely says that Regina has "unidentifiable items". Ooh, look at us, we're PATCA, and we just loooove seeing the pokemon we damaged get healed right back up again, because focus fire? What's that? God. Also, lemme repost Impact's weapon list: Light: Claws of Darkness, Strange Parasite Medium: Ricewood Rifle, HV rifle Heavy: Flamethrower, LH launcher I can do Ice damage, I could focus down on Altarisect. Probably freeze her too. We can probably do a lot of damage this turn. Probably even enough to kill one or two enemies. But we'd actually have to coordinate to do said damage, not just attack whomever we feel like. God. Oh, and does anyone remember what attributes Ruin type has? Because I could also kill Lopunnish real easily.

06-01-2010, 06:32 PM	#7
Dracorion Moves Like Jagger, Kupo! Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: To the south, a little to the left... Or to the right. Posts: 4,910	Hey man, I posted a strategy. It focused fire on three targets. Then Menarker fucked it up by insisting on being an anal nutbag. But if we want by my strategy, two baddies would have died and one would've been left critically damaged so we could see what kinda items they got. Also, we posted because we didn't want what happened last turn to happen now. Which is no one posted. I think Ruin-type does quad damage to Fighting. Also, I could've sworn AB said that Slayers could switch weapons whenever they wanted, Gem. So you should be able to switch to Swarm Bow, no problem. Menarker, Mollesk's Defense and Special Defense base stats are 230 and those don't change. It's like saying a Pokemon with 680 base stats gets more when it levels up! Well Menarker, they are mutated Pokesapiens, so it comes to reason they have buffed up defenses. It's proportional because we have the advantage of numbers and no super-pokemon. __________________ Dracorion's dumbass color is Royal Blue. If you see that color, you better run the fuck away.

06-01-2010, 06:24 PM	#9
Menarker OMG! WHAT SHOULD I DO NOW? Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 3,802	This video shows a level 100 Shuckle being hit by a level 100 Groudon's Earthquake without having done any buffing. Now, keep in mind that Shuckle only has 20 base hitpoints. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hY8S2DA1na0 Also, I was using the base stats as an example as a comparision to all our pokemons. In comparision, Mollesk's DEF and Special Defence and hitpoints are higher than what it shows. Because the base stats that you see in Bulbapedia and Serebii are measured at when a pokemon is level 50. So when I say 230 DEF and SDEF, that's when comparing equal level pokemons at level 50. So technically, Mollesk can hit the 800-900 region sooner as he goes up in level, only needing around 2 Cosmic Power to get around there... (And PATCA's pokemons are around level 70s-80ish?) And I was doing the math with neutral nature stat. It'd be faster/higher with beneficial nature, which AB said might be part of the Pokemon Breeder thing. http://www.serebii.net/pokedex-dp/213.shtml As for the Umbreon, I know first hand that it would have 65 DEF if I copied Power Trick. But I could copy the first two Cosmic Power, before I do the Power Trick/Rock Slide thing, then Umbreon would be defensive and focus on confuse ray and recover without dropping in defence. Or if I felt I could manage Follow Me (which Mollesk has) or use Renny's Protect, I have the option of letting Umbreon copy Power Trick for an additional attacker. The options are open if I plan carefully. ^,^ It's not a pancea, but the plan can be switched around and altered based on the changing situation. EDIT: Gem, in regards to your post, what's wrong with my post? Drac and I had a plan there posted earlier. 5 attackers for each of the 3 targets. There is plenty of focus fire involved. So I have Mollesk do a little buffing in case things go wrong? Still plenty of focus fire involved. Also, AB said that Lopunnish MIGHT have fighting type. It's not certain. So a ruin weapon is a good idea, but not certain to work as you hope. Also, their defensive ability is NOT proportional to our offense if we have to pile 3-4 Quad effective attacks to knock them out. __________________ THE BIO OF RENNY TRESSERHORN THE BIOs OF POKEMON UMBRAL! Last edited by Menarker; 06-01-2010 at 06:31 PM.

06-01-2010, 06:44 PM	#10
Menarker OMG! WHAT SHOULD I DO NOW? Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 3,802	Groudon: Level 100. 150 Attack (one of the god damn highest possible). Earthquake (One of the most powerful Ground type moves ever). STAB bonus. For that purpose, Groudon does NOT suck. Shuckle: Level 100 Only 20 base stat for hitpoints (unless it was EV trained for it). Only neutral for resistance. NO BUFFING at the time of attack. Despite this, Shuckle only took 1/3 hitpoint in damage from the Earthquake. Compare with Mollesk with the same defence as the above Shuckle but 6 times as much hitpoints. Mollesk can definately take a hit before buffing and will take MUCH more when buffed. Anyhow, Gem, I think Drac's plan is a good idea overall. But I don't think I deserve the particular harrassment Drac is giving me regarding how I choose to handle Mollesk or my role in the plan, especially when I'm looking ahead as to how to use Renny's abilities with the rage he accumulated. __________________ THE BIO OF RENNY TRESSERHORN THE BIOs OF POKEMON UMBRAL!