D&D Gold/XP Equivalency (is now general D&D playstyles thread)

[Tev]

Originally Posted by krogothwolf

Is the rolling for saves and attack similar to 3.x, because getting rid of THACO really made things less confusing. Or did they change the system?

Sorta. Don't think about saves like you used to. Fort/Ref/Will are all defenses like AC is now. Something attacks vs. one of those defenses and if it hits, it hits.

Example:
A giant spider would make an attack vs. a character's fortitude defense to poison him. If successful then the character might take an ongoing 5 poison damage every turn, or be slowed, or immobilized, or some other status effect. At the end of that character's turn he can roll a "save" to end the effect. You roll a d20 and on an 11 or higher your character "saves" and the effect ends. If not, it persists. There are ways to get bonuses to your save rolls. So it's not just some static chance every turn. Some classes even get multiple save rolls or get to save at the beginning of the turn as well as the end.

[tacticslion]

First: yes, it's totally scalable. Again, that's one of the good things of 4E. You just shove more monsters into the mix. Of course, this ups the XP, upping the level-gain, and is still (potentially) soloable, depending on how many monsters there are and what kinds there are, but I digress.

Also, the DMG gives you a series of "encounter kinds" based off of monster roles and tells you roughly how many of each kind (ranging from mastermind to defender, whether minion or not) makes a balanced encounter.

Originally Posted by krogothwolf

Is the rolling for saves and attack similar to 3.x, because getting rid of THACO really made things less confusing. Or did they change the system?

No, the save and attack mechanics are very, very different.

As previously mentioned, "saves" are an almost 50/50 chance now - ten or lower is a fail, above ten is a success. These can be modified by certain powers or special traits to give penalties (wizard orbs, I'm looking at you! ... that didn't come out right...) or bonuses (so that's what Warlords are for!), but the basic "saving throw" is a straight d20 roll with a slightly-better-than 50/50 chance. Saves are only the result of persistant powers, things with effects that last more than one round (ongoing damage, say, or the dazed condition as examples). They are made every round until successful (Green Dragon's mind-poison being one of the more notable exceptions).

The attack mechanic is a d20 roll modified by the kind of attack that you make. This is one place that 4E really, really shines. Instead of having AC (armor class) that is a static number that defends against physical attacks and fortitude, reflex, and will saves that are active defenses, you have four static defense numbers: your armor defense, your fortitude defense, your reflex defense, and your will defense. Everything else is an attack from the opponent (or an attack that you make). For example, let's look at that cleric earlier. Let's presume his stats are 4E standard: 16, 14, 13, 12, 11, 10 (This is high for 3.X, but 4E it's the standard array*). In fact, let's say he's a dragonborn cleric to harken back to Mirai Gen's post. A pretty typical array at first level, after racial ability adjustments, would look like this: STR 15/CON 12, DEX 11/INT10, WIS 16/CHA 16. It's debatable whether he'd want a higher strength, but this is very doable. He'd be a medium sized creature that could move six squares in a round (thirty feet for bizarre purists, like me), speak common and draconic (intelligence doesn't determine starting languages, race and feats do), have a +2 to history and intimidate checks, get +1 to all attack rolls when having half or less hp, get a healing surge equal to one quarter his maximum hit points (normal) plus his constitution modifier (Dragonborn bonus), and the ability to breath a minor (1d6 + CON mod damage) close blast 3 (effectively a 15-foot cone) of acid, cold, fire, lightning, or poison (his choice each time he uses it) once per encounter (roughly once per five minutes of light rest). Because he's stronger than tough or dexterous, he'd choose to use his strength as the primary attack-value for his breath weapon. He's a cleric, so let's say that he's trained in religion (automatic), and arcana, diplomacy, and heal. We're going for quick and dirty first level creation, so we'll just take the first powers on the list, regardless of power-gaming or suggestions from the books. As a first level character, he'd choose one feat. Let's say the Bahamut-dedicated feat (for flavor) "Armor of Bahamut" (let's him use his "channel divinity" class feature to negate a critical hit** against a buddy within five squares or twenty-five feet in addition to turning undead or stuff). Clerics can wear up to chainmail (something he'd buy), and wield simple melee or ranged weapons (he has a mace), and get a +2 to will defenses. Technically he'd get half his level as a bonus to everything except hit points and ability scores, but it's rounded down so it's irrelevant. All said, he'd look kinda like this:

F'st'n'F'rious ("Fast" for short) the Lawful Good Dragonborn Cleric of Bahamut (or whoever, really) with the stats: STR 16/CON 12, DEX 11/INT 10, WIS 16/CHA 16. Defenses (with armor): 16 AC, Fortitude 13, Reflex 10, Will 15. 24 hit points and 8 healing surges per day. Trained skills: Arcana (+5), Diplomacy (+8), Heal (+8), Religion (+5). He'd take -1 to all skill checks that armor would affect. He'd have a land speed of 5 with his armor on.

Channel Divinity (Cleric Feature)
Encounter (choose one each time it's used)
- Divine Fortune (gain a +1 bonus to next attack roll)
[free action, personal; divine]
- Turn Undead
[standard action, close burst 2, each undead in burst, wisdom attack v. will defense, 1d10 + WIS modifier and push targets 3+CHA mod squares away from you and they are immobilized, miss grants half damaged and targets are not immobilized or pushed away; divine, implement, radiant]
- Armor of Bahamut
[immediate interrupt, ranged 5, turns a critical hit v. you or an ally into a normal hit; divine]

Healing Word (Cleric Feature)
Encounter (special) * Divine, Healing
Special: you can use this power twice per encounter, but only once per round
Minor action, Close Burst 5
Target: you or one ally
Effect: the target can spend a healing surge and regains an additional 1d6 hit points

At Will Powers:
Lance of Faith Cleric Attack 1
At will * Divine, Implement, Radiant
Standard Action, Ranged 5
Target: One Creature
Attack: Wisdom v. Reflex defense
Hit: 1d8 + WIS mod radiant damage, and one ally you can see gains a +2 power bonus on his next attack roll

Priest's Shield Cleric Attack 1
At will * Divine, Weapon
Standard Action, Melee Weapon
Target: One Creature
Attack: Strength v. AC defense
Hit: weapon damage + strength modifier damage, and you and one adjacent ally gain a +1 power bonus to AC until the end of your next turn.

Encounter Powers:
Cause Fear Cleric Attack 1
Encounter * Divine, Fear, Implement
Standard Action, Ranged 10
Target: One Creature
Attack: Wisdom v. Will defense
Hit: The target moves its speed + your charisma modifier number of squares away from you. The fleeeing target avoids unsafe squares and difficult terrain, if it can. This movement provokes opportunity attacks.

Dragon Breath Dragonborn Racial Power
Encounter * Acid, Cold, Fire, Lightning, or Poison
Minor Action, Close blast 3
Targets: all creatures in area
Attack: Strength +2 v. Reflex defense
Hit: 1d6 + CON mod damage

Daily Power:
Avenging Flame Cleric Attack 1
Daily * Divine, Fire, Weapon
Standard Action, Melee Weapon
Target: One Creature
Attack: Strength v. AC defense
Hit: roll weapon damage twice plus strength modifier damage, and ongoing 5 fire damage (save ends).
Miss: half damge, and no ongoing fire damage
Speical: if the target attacks on its turn, it can't attempt a saving throw against the ongoing damage.

Our dragonborn has himself a mace, which (because he's proficient) would provide him with a basic weapon attack of 2 + STR + d20 to deal 1d8 + STR damage on a successful hit.

Now, let's pit this dragon against a large number of hypothetical kobold minions (the full stats are irrelevant, but they have an attack of +5 v. AC for 4 damage, 1 hit point, and defenses of: AC 15, fortitude 11, reflex 13, and will 11).

Initiative Rolls let Fast the Cleric go first. There are four kobolds clustered near him, so he takes a minor action and attacks them with his dragon breath encounter power. He rolls a d20 (it's an average 10), adds that to 2+STR mod (total of +4) for a total attack of 14 against their reflex defense of 13. He hits and deals 1d6 + CON mod damage (irrelevant, as they only have 1 hp) so they are all dead. His move action allows him to move the three squares needed to get within 10 squares of the leader kobold and cause fear.

A standard action attack roll (d20 grants an average 10) means his wisdom-based attack (+3 bonus) is a total of 13 v. the kobold's will defense of 11. The kobold runs away. Kobold's turn, and last four of them attack him. Three average rolls of 10 later (for a total of 15 on each attack) v. his 16 AC means he takes no damage. In response, he attacks one with his daily power and rolls an average 10 plus his STR mod (2) for a total of twelve against the kobold's AC of 15... it misses and is wasted. He remains in position. One round of kobold attacks later, he has sustained one attack (the kobold managed a 16 on its d20 attack roll for a total of 21 v. Fast the Cleric's AC of 16), leaving him with 4 damage. As a minor action, he heals himself (via healing word), makes a standard attack with his at will lance of faith, hits with a d20 roll of 10 (total of 13 v. reflex defense 13, so it barely hits) and kills the targeted kobold, granting himself a +2 power bonus to his next attack.

The leader comes back from being frightened away earlier, and a round of kobold attacks leave our cleric undamaged. He granted himself a +2 bonus to his next attack, and uses it now with Priest's Shield attack and misses (d20 = 10, + 2 from power + 2 from strength, total 14, not enough v. AC of 15). This goes on for a few rounds, and the kobolds are dropped to only the leader. Fast attacks with his lance of faith and hits (barely), but finds that the leader*** has more than 1 hp! Gasp! The Lance of Faith deals 1d8 (roll of 4) + wisdom modifier (3) damage, for a total of 7! The kobold attacks and deals 4 hit points worth of damage.

Fast heals himself again (his last time for five minutes or this battle) as a minor action. He then attacks the leader and gains a natural 20 on his attack (potential critical hit!) and confirms the potential critical hit, so he deals maximum damage (8+3 = 11) and kills the kobold leader. He's won the battle!

So, do you see the mechanics difference? A similar cleric in 3.X would be casting spells and kobolds would be actively saving against them. Here, the cleric attacks the static numbers of their various defenses. Hope that helps!

*As a note, many monsters tend to have markedly higher stats than a comparable player character, and have higher defenses, yet still have less of a chance of survival, despite these seeming advantages. They also vary rather wildly from each other. This is one of the bizarre traits of 4E and one reason why it's very difficult to come up with a balanced creature.
**Criticals now deal max damage instead of extra damage.
***I'm totally making this thing up. I basically granted a minion 15 hp. The minions are directly lifted from the Monster Manual.

Edit: totally and justifiably ninja'd! Also, there are a few death-inducing attacks, but it's only due to potentially fatal-damage stuff that also penalizes saves, not a real death-attack. Death is handled with saving throws v. level of death when it's called for instead of just reaching -10 hp.

[krogothwolf]

Is Regular attacks still handled the same way? and what about any instant death type attacks?

[Tev]

Originally Posted by krogothwolf

Is Regular attacks still handled the same way? and what about any instant death type attacks?

Regular attacks are the same, though I think there are less or no "instant death" sort of attacks unless the GM calls for them. I've personally not come across anything that ends up being "Save or die" or "Dodge or die" sort of attack but to be fair, I've not really been looking.

[Meister]

Seeing as there are no SRD for 4E the way there were for 3.5, I'm not sure if it's such a good idea to post complete stat blocks of powers and whatnot.

[Tev]

Originally Posted by Meister

Seeing as there are no SRD for 4E the way there were for 3.5, I'm not sure if it's such a good idea to post complete stat blocks of powers and whatnot.

Which is why I totally ninja'd him.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Actually what is the deal with that. I've totally been used to just throwing shit out on messageboards and discussing intricacies of feats and things due to the SRD. What happens to that now?

[Tev]

I'm not sure. Are we not due a SRD from Wizards now that 4th ED is out or are they not going to have one? I've not heared anything about it. I just assumed they'd put one up whenever they got around to it.

[krogothwolf]

Makes sense tactics. I remember death inducing poisons and what not that you failed you died from some beast. Can't remember what but it killed our dwarf.

Isn't this it? http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20

I mean the SRD, its different then 3,5's obviously and you can get the jist of things without skills and what not. Tev's way was pretty much perfect cause I could understand it

[Tev]

Originally Posted by krogothwolf

Tev's way was pretty much perfect cause I could understand it.

And thus Tev got a new sig.

Originally Posted by krogothwolf

Do you guys use Minatures when you play?

And yes, we do. I have blown a rediculous amount of money on them recently and my players love it.