Premmy's Big-Long Anti-Racism thread.

[Premmy]

I really wasn't going to do this.
But hey, It's still February, I missed the final day of my town's Black Heritage Festival,( no swag for me )
and I saw Get on the Bus, at like, four AM, so here I am.

I'll try to outline some basic concepts of racism and how it works in our culture, as well as my own ideas about these topics, both for my own sake, and as a means to further discussion.

Preems is weird.

^^^^^
My personal views on Anti-Racism are tinted, like everyone's opinions on anything, by my personal experiences, and I greatly disagree with quite a few of the tenants and ideologies of Professional and Scholarly Anti-Racist theory. If you want more insight into these subjects from a more scholarly perspective, I'd advise going to those sources for it.


Racism Is Complicated

Racism recquires Serious Discussion, not talking about it, or not talking about it extensively is counter-productive in every sense of the word.(this means you should un-hide all these tags)
Racism is a multifaceted thing, containing elements of Sociology, Psychology, Philosophy, and even Religion. Simple ideas create more problems than they could ever solve. TL,DR is going to do nothing but make things worse for everyone. If racism was a simple thing, it wouldn't still be a problem, and it IS still a problem. It also means a simple understanding of things doesn't get to what the REAL problems are.

What this all means, is you're going to need to do a lot of SERIOUS thinking, a lot of SERIOUS reading and listening, and a lot of questioning of the way you and other people think. Avoiding talking about issues of race altogether is no better. If you avoid, deny, or ignore it, you set yourself up to contribute to it by dint of not having any sort of adequate knowledge of the topic.You set yourself up to reacting negatively to the topic when it comes up.

Imagine you have an illness, if you get upset and close yourself off every time the subject is brought up by your doctor, you're not going to get the proper treatment, because you're preventing yourself from addressing the problem.

I Don't care about you, Dick

Racism is bigger than individual hate
I really really don't, and neither does anybody else. The constant misconception that Racism ONLY=Dickishness is dangerous in that it limits the conversation about it(racism) and drives the focus toward something that is, as far as I know, impossible to change in any way. Individuals being blatant assholes is just a fact of life, some people are dicks, some people aren't.
What's there to talk about? What's there to do about it?

Pretty much the only thing to address in individual dickishness is making sure none of those people get in charge of anything important to our society, and we more or less do that,( or rather, we do on paper.)
That's done. What's there to address in individuals being hateful?

“That guy sucks”
“Yup”
“Well, that's done”


We might be able to discuss what makes them that way, but individual personality is as influenced by our culture at large as it is by personal experiences. So, yes, it's possible to look at what causes their behavior, and if that helps you gain a greater understanding of the issue, then good, but they're hardly the real issue.Who do rude people hurt? Others, certainly, but only if you let them. By and large hateful people disadvantage themselves by alienating those around them. The issue is not at all one of individuals being hateful, as that's entirely a personal issue.


White People Rule the world

The Majority of racism stems from the dominance of white culture over all others, instead of a more equal representation
I often see people discuss racism as a form of culture clash: “Two groups of people fighting each other.” This implies that both cultures are on equal footing, that two people, both in the same situation, are having a dispute. But this isn't the case. Racism isn't a fight, it's a beat-down.
Racism is all about one group, being over another. And in the case of America, That's white people.

I'm sure you have a personal story about how you, yourself, don't rule anything, but, it's rather hard to argue that the dominant force in our culture isn't one of European influence, and hasn't been for the longest time.
This extends to every aspect of our lives. Music, Fashion, Language, Food, Pop Culture, Literature, Art, Government, and Interpersonal Relationships.

Think of our culture like a Stew.You make it with beef broth, Add in vegetables, chopped beef, all the good seasonings. It's still gonna taste overwhelmingly like beef.

White People Aren't Normal

Our culture treats people of color differently than white people, your personal experiences as a white person do not indicate those of a non-white person.
They're different, just like everyone else. I've already mentioned the western dominance of our culture. Viewing oneself and one's experiences as “normal” or in other words, a standard to judge by, instead of one of many options, Is an example of this. “White Privilege” is a phrase that pops up at this point in more serious debate, and it encapsulates what I'm describing here. You personally may think yourself to not have any privileges, but it's better to think of it in this mind-frame:

White Privilege is the absence of race-based oppression.

Unless you want to tell me how a white person can experience being marginalized for being non-white, It's a fair assessment to say white people aren't privy to these experiences, and also, that their own experiences aren't indicative of what others are going through.

So, while you may be a poor white man, and you may have class-based oppression,you still lack personal experiences of Race-based oppression.
You might be wondering about a situation, where, a person of Color can be rude to a white person. You might view it as an example of an individual white person experiencing race-based oppression.

But think of it this way. Let's say you're the only white person in a given area. Fine, you're in the minority in that particular situation. The people in your area mistreat you specifically because you're white. Fine, you're subjected to racist treatment. Did you stop being white? Did you suddenly have your ethnicity be marginalized by the entire culture of your country? No, you were called something mean by individual people being rude. You, as a white person, can always walk away from those individuals and go live your life in a world that has no special animosity towards you.

Try this experiment. Spend about seven days, actively avoiding people of color. Be careful of course, to not be an ass or be blatant about it. Just guide your daily activities so that you don't deal with people of color to any significant degree. Under all but the most extreme of conditions, you shouldn't be terribly inconvenienced. Now, do the opposite. Spend a week, ONLY dealing with people of color. Don't do business with any white-owned establishments. Don't socialize with any white people. That will probably cut out most of your favorite restaurants, services, and hobbies.

Everybody's a little bit racist.

Our society is inherently racist, Living in it will force everyone to do and think certain racist things.Our culture is built on concepts of Racism, sexism, and Hetero-sexism that skew in favor of Straight, White, Christian Men. All of us have to live with this, because we live in that culture. We internalize a lot of the images and ideas that this culture is built on. This means all of us have issues with the racism in our culture. Every one of us, dealing with this is a part of the solution.

Intentionally or unintentionally, we all engage in or contribute to behaviors and ideologies that are a part of the racism of our culture. If you live in a racist society, you're going to do racist things. The key is to not let it penetrate who you are, and what you really think, and to try to change it in your own life as much as you can.

* I'll be adding sources,expanding, and doing edits on this post over time, I just needed to quit procrastinating.

Edit: after reading other sources on discussing racism, I'm gonna add this here.

I kind of hope that everyone can approach this discussion without using ad-hominem attacks or disregarding others point of view.
So, it's kind of like old Discussion forum rules in that I don't want to see any "Waa waa, cry moar" or anything to that effect. If you have a point, make it, but don't go accusing people of things and insulting people.

[Geminex]

I find this topic intriguing and wish to pursue it further.
Just gimme a while to digest that and find things to object to or points to agree with and expand on.

[Azisien]

Deep down I like to hope my goading may have helped this. I don't have time to elaborately respond so I'll check back later.

Almost universally agree though. Things I am interested in discussing though:
-Actual anti-racism tactics
-What's the priviledged white person to do in this scenario
-How to approach breaking down institutionalized racism

[Hanuman]

Our culture is built on concepts of Racism, sexism, and Hetero-sexism that skew in favor of Straight, White, Christian Men.

Who's culture? Your culture?
My culture is one of wordly, cultured, spiritualist, artistic and wise people since that's who I spend the majority of my time around. Though I do make a smaller portion of my time reserved for my old dorky crowd <3

Most of the things you are bringing up are subtle contemporary racial segregation.

I'd like to bring up my usual point on racism, and that's how a race is just a generalized grouping of genes, and some of those genes may actually be favored by society and some not favored in the future this could happen: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genism

Or, at least babies modded to be better.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

I've told you before Lev- Genism has pretty much no scientific basis in anything at all. The effect that ones specific genes have on a person's final development is so tin as to be neglible and the cost of modifying them is so ridiculously high when compared to social programs which modify a person's environment which has a FAR FAR outcome on a person's final being.
Genism is scientifically nonsense. It is economically nonsense. Though it could happen because people are stupid.

As for racism I have a real problem with affirmative action plans (Lolz, you so racist BHS). The reason is that these plans (in the way they are set up where I have encountered them- I don't know the specifics of US systems) overwhelmingly help the middle class/rich parts of any minority gropu who don't really need it because these are the people who are more aware of the opportunities in the system, have better information about it and have more ability to take advantage. The people who really need help don't tend to get it.
That is why I always think these plans should be more economically based instead of racially based because they will still overwhelmingly help the minority who needs them- because they are overrepresented in the poverty statistics- while not helping those who don't actually need it.

[Hanuman]

Originally Posted by Smarty McBarrelpants

I've told you before Lev- Genism has pretty much no scientific basis in anything at all. The effect that ones specific genes have on a person's final development is so tin as to be neglible and the cost of modifying them is so ridiculously high when compared to social programs which modify a person's environment which has a FAR FAR outcome on a person's final being.
Genism is scientifically nonsense. It is economically nonsense. Though it could happen because people are stupid.

As for racism I have a real problem with affirmative action plans (Lolz, you so racist BHS). The reason is that these plans (in the way they are set up where I have encountered them- I don't know the specifics of US systems) overwhelmingly help the middle class/rich parts of any minority gropu who don't really need it because these are the people who are more aware of the opportunities in the system, have better information about it and have more ability to take advantage. The people who really need help don't tend to get it.
That is why I always think these plans should be more economically based instead of racially based because they will still overwhelmingly help the minority who needs them- because they are overrepresented in the poverty statistics- while not helping those who don't actually need it.

{{citation needed}}

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Originally Posted by Lev

{{citation needed}}

What bit would you like me to cite? Cause every study ever done in the last 40 years on the influence of environment versus genes overwhelmingly concludes that environment is far more critical than genetic upbringing.
The simplest way to look at it is that the brain- our most critical part- is barely developed when you are born the first years of life are when it develops ad that development is pretty much entirely environmental determined.
And then there is the fact that genes react different to different environments. There is no one simple gene that always does one thing- the body is a complex set of interactions which depend on so many more things than genetic interactions.
Even at its absolute most basic level the tertiary structure of a gene is determined by environmental factors- if you change these factors you change the final behaviour.
If you want me to cite a specific thing I can but just go to google- this is simple basic stuff, first year biology.
I'm pretty sure I cited a whole lot of stuff the last time you made this ridiculous argument- so you can go back and read that one.

And changing society is far cheaper than molecular cells- or do you wat me to cite that too.

Originally Posted by POS Industries

I'm curious as to what degree you differentiate between class-based oppression and race-based oppression in America, as it strikes me that more and more in our current era that the major contributing factor to the impediment of the upward mobility of the average African-American is that we live in a society set up to favor the rich and to maintain that the wealthier citizens not only remain as such but further gain more wealth, which necessitates keeping money, resources, and opportunities for advancement out of the hands of the poor lest we risk any sort of redistribution of wealth to even the most minor degree.

Naturally, the fact that a large share of the black community finds themselves being the victims of what is distinctly class-based warfare--whether those winning the war realize this or not--is certainly based in the centuries of racial oppression they've undergone, and there is certainly a persistent stigma in regards to race relations in this country, but to say that, for the most part, the struggle of the average poor black American is different from the struggle of the average poor white American has quickly become increasingly inaccurate.

In fact, I would say that the racist element is less that black people are not advancing because they're black but the fact that a number of (dumber) white people are under the impression that the reason most black people who do advance in some financial respect do so because whatever white person that surely had to hire them/promote them/enroll them only did so because they were afraid they'd be labeled racist if they did not. This is, of course, ludicrous and obviously a pathetic attempt by dumbass white folks to claim that they are now the ones experiencing racial oppression, because I guess they think that's how you get handed things nowadays. The idea that a black man could possibly be the most qualified candidate eludes them.

However, the people in America who think this way typically don't appear to be the ones in power. In fact, the larger share of them seem to be living in poverty themselves, and are simply angry and looking for someone to blame for their own victimization at the hands of our socioeconomic system without wanting to abandon the system themselves, lest they dash their hopes of somehow being on the top of it themselves one day.

This is pretty much a better version of my argument and I think it is really the most compelling argument that you have to make.

Originally Posted by Geminex

Edit:

Though I would be interested in some more info on the affirmative-action plans and the ineffectiveness thereof, that smarty mentioned.

As I said, my info is based not on the US but on NZ- I can get you some data on that if necessary- but I have no idea how relevant it is. It would seem likely that the same principals apply though.

[POS Industries]

Originally Posted by Smarty McBarrelpants

This is pretty much a better version of my argument and I think it is really the most compelling argument that you have to make.

Bear in mind, of course, that I'm speaking on average. There are certainly areas throughout the country where full-on lynchtastic cross-burning sheet-wearing bigotry is operating in full effect. My time in Shasta County, California, for instance, provided quite the horrifying reminder for me that we as a nation still have a long way to go. A 17-year-old autistic boy who wandered out of his house one night and got lost ended up being beaten by police, having his arm broken, and hauled off to jail, which probably wouldn't have happened had he not been black. A seriously ill white woman failed to receive treatment at the local hospital because the man who brought her in was black. That sort of thing.

Not exactly a hospitable area for someone who wasn't a straight, white, Christian man, and as someone who doesn't strictly fall into three out of four of those qualifiers, I didn't exactly make an effort to involve myself in the community.

[krogothwolf]

I don't really see much, if any, racism were I live. I don't even think about the colour of the person when dealing with them, it seems pretty pointless to even care about it. The colour of ones skin doesn't matter.

I don't really think white people rule the world anymore Prem. You could have said America and be more truthful, but the world? Not only that, American culture seems like a mash of others with the US adding its own flavour to it.

And Lev, he was talking about American Culture. Say's so in one of his post things somewhere.

I agree with SMB about affirmitive action plans. I've seen it happen to my friend 3 times he didn't get a job he was more qualified for in his company because they had to hire a minority or woman and he is starting to become racist himself because of it.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Originally Posted by krogothwolf

I agree with SMB about affirmitive action plans. I've seen it happen to my friend 3 times he didn't get a job he was more qualified for in his company because they had to hire a minority or woman and he is starting to become racist himself because of it.

In my plan they'll be just hiring poor people in place of him. But then he will become poor so he will get a job too. The perfect system!
I don't have uch of a problem with the system described because the miority probably doesn't have the qualifications because he never had the opportunity to get them unlike his white competitor. And to break the decades of inequality we need to even out the system which in cases like this means working with the less privledged. Just it shouldn't be done on race, it should be done on wealth.