D&D: general talk, rules questions and advice thread (d20 roll dice everyday)

[Melfice]

Originally Posted by Meister

and has on more than one occasion insulted opponents so harshly they died on the spot.

Why does that sound familiar...?

Of course, that wasn't so much an insult, but still.

[Meister]

That would be an entirely valid way for that particular spell to work, and one I'd encourage.

[walkertexasdruid]

I tried 4th ed. last week for the first time. It was alright, but I think that I will stick to 3.5. Now if the players who were supposed to begin with me would not get strickened with tonsalitus and mono, things would go much smoother for me. So some advice is needed, what do you do if your PCs are on their deathbeds? ;-)

[Vauron]

play in the hospital?

[Tev]

For any of you 4th ed players looking for a bit of entertainment, I wrote up a 4th edition Iron Chef Skill Challenge!

-Challenge rating is 3 (You must get 6 successes before 3 failures.)
-Relevant skills are: Arcana, Bluff, Diplomacy, Endurance, History, Insight, Intimidate, Nature, Perception, and Thievery.
-Succeeding this skill challenge will allow the dish of food you make to qualify as an actual competitive dish worthy of the judge's scrutiny. Failure means you don't even have a chance at becoming the next "Iron Chef Islandia!"

Back-story: You are a cook in the royal palace, but not the head chef. You have been eying that position for some time but the politics of court always seem to keep the job just out of your grasp. It's no secret among the nobles that you and the head chef don't get along, but it is only when a group of foreign dignitaries arrive at the royal palace that an opportunity presents itself. During court, one of your admirers suggests to the king a cooking competition to showcase the skills of his majesty's finest chef. When it is asked who his competitor would be, your name was the first off many courtly followers' lips. Quickly the game is decided upon. The both of you will be presented a theme ingredient from which to make a grand meal for the king and his visiting dignitaries. The heat will be on!

Insert theme music for mood!

The stage is set! The king stands before the covered tray, hand grasping the silken cloth covering the main ingredient! Let the skill challenge begin!

Round 1: With a showy lift, the king reveals the theme ingredient: Griffin wing! What the hell? How do you cook griffin? What the hell does it even taste like? Chicken? Cat? You glance over to your enemy. He looks cool and calculating. You better not let him see you sweat. You put on your sternest "can do" face and shoot him an intimidating glare (Intimidate roll). Success! You have shaken his concentration giving you time to ascend to the table and get first pick at the choicest wing parts! At least you think they may be the choicest. I mean, you're still not quite sure what kind of meat this will even cook like. (Current score 1/0)

Round 2: Meaty wings in hand you move to your station, mind reeling with the possibilities. Do you fry this up? Baste it? Grill? You take a quick look at what you actually have here and try not to think of it as griffin so much as just another piece of meat as you try to identify what it's most like. (Insight roll) Another success! These wings are indeed somewhat like a chickens. You can see the heavier fat of the dark meat surround the overly large bone. You're pretty sure what you want to do with this now. You head off to the table of spices to pick your selection. (Current score 2/0)

Round 3: Reaching the table you go through your list. You know you need some garlic, salt, caraway, cloves. What else would help tie this bird...cat...thing together? (Nature roll) Failure! You know exactly what this needs! Some tarragon! Quickly you race over to where it should be only to find the space vacant. Looking around perplexedly you spy your needed spice on the table of your rival. He shoots you a wicked grin knowing he has dealt your dish a decisive blow! (Current score 2/1)

Round 4: You don't have time to worry about the tarragon now. Your griffin needs cooking. Giving it a good rubdown with your selected spices you place it in the oven to broil. Now you need to figure out how you are going to present this bird. It's large enough to serve on a platter, but just tossing a glorified chicken wing on a plate and presenting it to the king in front of his dignitaries won't get you promoted. Hell, it may get you terminated...and not in the healthy way. You think hard about the history between your nation and that of the dignitaries. (History roll) Success! Both peoples had come from a single island chain once. Though the separation had been a little rocky, after a few generations peace had settled and trade had made both countries strong. There was even rumor that this delegation was sent to see about marrying their island princess to you lord's eldest son in a bid to reunite the kingdoms when the last of this generation's kings had past. You decide on on your plating. The griffin wing will crest a wave of sea-green sauce, re-imagining the mountainous island from which both peoples came from and from which both will return united in strength. (Current score 3/1)

Round 5: While you are mixing your sauce together you realize that you are sorely missing that package of tarragon. It was part of your own father's recipe and without it, you may not be able to pull this whole thing together. Quickly you hatch a plan to get it back as you sneak a glace over at your rival's table. (Perception roll) Success! He's away looking for more ingredients! The pouch of tarragon is still sitting there, untouched; a hostage in this cooking duel. You let your greening sauce sit on the warming oven as you move ever closer to his table. (Current score 4/1)

Round 6: Looking around to be sure nobody is watching you reach for the unattended pouch. (Thieving roll) Failure! A hand grabs it from your reach and you look to see the head chef's assistant giving you a mocking glare! A smile to her lips, she opens the bag and pours it all into a stewing pot filled with you rival's chopped griffin flesh. Embarrassed, you slink back to your station. (Current score 4/2)

Round 7: Time is running out, your griffin almost done (you hope), you rush through your station plating the sauces, preparing the last of your side dishes, hoping that you'll get everything ready before the gong sounds the end. (Endurance roll) Success! You wipe the sweat from your brow as you pull the large wing from the oven and plate it just in time to hear the ringing of the gong. The duel is almost at an end. Now you must face your lord and his guests, explaining to them what you made and why. (Current score 5/2)

Final round: Your rival ascends to the main table first. He has made a griffin meat stew richly flavored in tarragon and his own secret blend. It is soft and creamy to the pallet and the king comments on how tender the griffin meat is. Of course he expects no less from his head chef. The rival delegation however are not as pleased. The tarragon is far too strong that it has cloyed the taste of the meat they say. Griffin meat is fragile they say, and must be carefully tended with softer herbs and spices to bring out it's best flavors. The king nods. This was in his mind as well. It is your turn. As your tray is settled before the king and the delegation, you tell of the inspiration of your dish. A softer flavor of griffin meat sitting in a sea of hearty oceanic sauce. Much like the island from which both peoples originated and and symbolizing the bond between the nations. (Diplomacy roll) Success! both the king and the delegation are pleased. Not just with the skill and imagination of your dish, but with the symbolism and respect shown to the cradle of both nations. As the court looks on, the head table enjoys the meals presented and begins deliberating a victor. (Final score 6/2)

Now, at this point you have earned the chance to win your king's favor. We just need to determine how your opponent actually did. If your GM already knows or had decided then you can just move on the victor or the loser (but with some major diplomatic benefits). If you want to go a more random route, roll percentage chance each round for the rival chef. 50/50 if he's actually a normal cook, 60/40 if he's pretty good, and 70/30 if he is indeed worthy of the title of head chef for the king. There were eight rounds so roll eight times. If you had more successes than he did you win. Simple as that.

Let it not be said you can't do fun shit in 4th Ed.

[Meister]

I was going to say I'd probably use Nature to determine what cuts and kinds of meat resemble one another but the use of History to tie plating a dish into a people's common past more than makes up for whatever little fault I could find in that. Plus, cooking contest. I approve of this!

[Tev]

It spawned out of an argument I had online with someone who said 4th Edition couldn't handle non-combat events very well.

[Meister]

I would say it probably doesn't handle them in as much detail as it does combat events but yeah I've found you can do noncombat scenes and adventures just fine. Which itself is a statement that really shouldn't need to be made explicitly. I mean why wouldn't you?

Throwing another example in the mix I made something tailored towards my group's bard the other day - another bard challenged her to an entertainment contest, each group of tavern guests would contribute a challenge, and they'd do opposing skill rolls, with the one who did better over the course of the evening being declared winner. Gave the enemy bard a spread of skills equivalent to a PC's, allowed the other party members to come up with ways to help out and make aid another rolls, and came up with a challenge for almost every skill on the list, from a group of Orc warriors challenging them to dodge thrown knives (Acrobatics) to an angel of death (it was that kind of tavern) asking for a spiritual song (Religion). It was a lot of fun.

[Tev]

Originally Posted by Meister

I would say it probably doesn't handle them in as much detail as it does combat events but yeah I've found you can do noncombat scenes and adventures just fine. Which itself is a statement that really shouldn't need to be made explicitly. I mean why wouldn't you?

I've found that most "4th Ed sux" arguments, at some point, bring up that there are far less skills in 4th compared to 3rd and so it sucks because their characters can't dooooo things.

I mean the guy I was arguing with spend over two hours trying to explain why 4th ed was crap because it didn't have a fishing skill.

Anyway, I finished up a decent Divine character only pilgrimage style campaign a while back, sadly with a "bad ending." But everyone had a good time and are looking forward to playing another campaign in the hellscape of their failure that became of my world a few years after they fell.

[tacticslion]

Originally Posted by Tev

I've found that most "4th Ed sux" arguments, at some point, bring up that there are far less skills in 4th compared to 3rd and so it sucks because their characters can't dooooo things.

I mean the guy I was arguing with spend over two hours trying to explain why 4th ed was crap because it didn't have a fishing skill.

Anyway, I finished up a decent Divine character only pilgrimage style campaign a while back, sadly with a "bad ending." But everyone had a good time and are looking forward to playing another campaign in the hellscape of their failure that became of my world a few years after they fell.

First, that's a fantastically cool way to build a campaign world.

Second, let me say that you're smart, Tev. Very smart, from what I've seen online. But you're letting that ability ignore potentially valid points.

Third, I actually play 4th and enjoy it, but I still prefer third; yes, partially (though not exclusively) for the skills, and the cooking challenge you listed above is a great example of why. First, it's fun, humorous, and works as a great example of how 4th Ed handles things well - basically so long as a skill can be said to apply to a general category it can be used to simulate the effect. I like it!

The problem comes, to me, at least, at a) how specific it is. You've set up a fantastic series of things your players must do in order to succeed at the challenge. If they don't think of it, you've either got to count that as a failure, or tell them... either way, it feels kinda like railroading. Sure, you can make it so that if they come up with a creative use you can apply it, but you're still heavily limiting their options. Note: this isn't a bad skill-challenge you've built here. It's actually really good, has a lot of nice options to it, and it creates a fun place. But the players are still doing what you want, not what they want to accomplish the goal. Second - admittedly far less important for 'fun', but still there for me - is how broadly a given skill applies. A guy who's good at hunting and fishing, even one great with knives, wouldn't necessarily be the guy you want artfully arranging your potatoes. It's clever the way you link it, but it's feels somewhat stretched. This is kind of the opposite of the 'too specific' problem I present above - that it's 'too general' - but I think that the two complaints are about different enough aspects that they still hold water. The thing with Skill Challenges is that it's one of the best and worst concepts in 4E, simultaneously. Best in theory, worst in practice (to my experience).

All that said, I understand that 4E can handle things. Heck, it can handle anything. As in, at all. It just doesn't have the rules to cover it - the GM has to make those up. And that's where things start to lose me a bit, compared to other editions. Not everything runs the same way in a 4E world, something that, for me, is important to feel fully immersed. I never quite engage in the 4E world in the same way as 3.X, 'cause it always feels just a bit gamey, and less "real" somehow - like how NPCs and 'monsters' don't function like PCs.

I could go on, but I'm not going to convince you, and that's fine. I just wanted to show that there's valid points on both sides. That fishing skill can be important to immerse some people in reality, just as it's not important to you. I'm down with people that prefer 4E and 3.X - even those that are exclusive. I can swing both ways (on editions of DnD, only!). I just like 3.X better. Others don't. We coo'.