"Was Anders Right?" or "Here There Be Dragon Age Spoilers"

[Solid Snake]

It just occurred to me. The perfect way for my first DA2 playthrough to encapsulate my state of utter self-loathing.

I'm going to do my first playthrough as Mage class.
And I am going to side with the Chantry and the Templars.

EDIT: I wonder if Bioware like even considered that possibility when programming the game's choices.
I wonder if at one point a Chantry dude will comment to the effect of: "You do know we're going to put you in chains as soon as you help us win the war, right?"

[Krylo]

Originally Posted by PyrosNine

If you don't have something to keep them in check, there's nothing to stop the mages from deciding they don't have to obey any law.

I've never bought this as being anything other than Chantry propaganda. The gameplay in either game certainly doesn't support it. The lore doesn't support it. The spell load outs of mages that you get who aren't going full out kill everything battle mages CERTAINLY don't support it.

A single mage might be able to kill like 5-10 non-mage soldiers, sure. When protected by actual soldiers, or a good fortress, many more--but the same holds true of archers. The mage is just more efficient--but also much more limited in numbers.

And we never, ever, ever, hear about mages doing any huge world changing effects without murdering slaves for blood, or having access to huge quantities of lyrium. Or selling their souls to demons.

In short: Soldiers get swords. Mages have swords grafted onto their souls. If you're going to get all 'oh but the mages are so dangerous' you should be taking swords, bows, and crossbows away from everyone in Thedas, and locking up anyone who knows martial arts right next to them.

And on selling their souls to demons: Almost every single time we see this happen, it is when they are cornered by the chantry, by the templars. They fear for their lives. They're desperate. They think they're going to die, or WORSE, be turned tranquil, so they turn to the only thing they know of that MIGHT save them.

They take those Faustian deals not because they are evil, but because they are left no choice by the very people who seek to contain their 'threat'.

Uldred and his followers turned to the demons not because they wanted to rule Thedas, or slaughter the templars, or any such goal. They turned to the blood magic and the demons because they wanted freedom. They wanted freedom to love. They wanted freedom to go outside. They wanted freedom to see their families--to even HAVE families.

And for this, they turned to the only place they could gather the power necessary to throw off the templars--the templars who, to a man, are more powerful than the average mage with their lyrium addiction and their secret arts that draw on the power of the lyrium they drink.

Wynne did not become an abomination out of a need for power to control either. She became one as her life was ending, and was lifted up and protected by the spirit she took within herself.

The apostates, blood mages, and abominations we meet in DA2, as well, turned to the demons as they were being sold into slavery in an attempt to escape the chantry, or when cornered by templars knowing they'd be made tranquil for relatively minor offenses. And then their corruption spread from there, a combination of constant fear and paranoia with hatred of their oppressors and the whisperings of demons in their ears.

Every single abomination we see across the games can be blamed directly upon the chantry.

I don't particularly think Anders chose the right TARGET for his attack, as that the mother in charge of that chantry actually seemed a pretty alright lady, just much too slow to move.

However, the war he started needed to happen.

The Templars needed to be thrown off. Meredith had to die. And the chantry needs to lose its position of power over Thedas. Just like the Tevinter magisters did.

[Seil]

Emphasizing Krylo's WoT.

Emphasizing.

Empha-wait. Shit.

[Krylo]

Originally Posted by Seil

Empha-wait. Shit.

Nah, no shit.

Decimus is basically Uldred-lite. He attacks Hawke out of a mixture of paranoia that you're working for the Templars, and hatred of the templars. He turned to blood magic to escape, turned to the demons to escape, turned to raising the undead to find safety.

He was driven mad by the chantry. Whether he would have still done something horrible outside the tower or not we'll never know.

[Kim]

Also the actions of like one dude aren't justification to oppress an entire part of society.

[PyrosNine]

Originally Posted by Seil

Quick thought, Pyros; if not Anders, than who? Who should start the mage rebellion?

Hawke, probably, if you run mage- presumably someone who has a mastery of magic and one of the few people to dip into the deeper waters of magic without getting corrupted by it- unless you played that way.

The ideal leader would be someone who was calm and balanced enough to lead while also someone capable of tapping into the greater magical powers without becoming an abomination, because such a person would need the greater powers to protect those on their side and defeat aggressors. Otherwise, a leader who did not have that level of control or power in a time of need might feel driven to dig deeper than they were capable of and...become the very opposite of what they mean to show what what mages are.

A problem with the idea of mages being helpless is that the mages we see getting victimized are by and large always the weaker ones, and the ones pressed into military service are usually weaker but more theoretically stable fare, not the prodigies and superhumanly magical, whom the Templars can't, and sometimes won't victimize. Furthermore, most mages are forced to follow Chantry approved magics, not explore certain likely more powerful roots. It's likely that aside from a certain swamp witch, we have yet to see the full strength of mages in force, such as the like that the Tevinter Imperium wielded. Anders himself is crazy strong in magic to warrant a full army, and most of the powerful mages you fight in game are too strong for anyone but your team of superpowered badasses. The Chantry's forces win most fights with mages by sheer numbers, and even then they need Lyrium and people like Hawke/Grey Wardens/Bounty Hunters to bring in the bigger fish. With a full on Templar/Mage war starting, we're likely going to see more mages strong enough to resist corruption and wield the stronger magics thanks to the freedom their war efforts have brought them, and even a recovery of lost arts. That's ignoring the fact that in the books 30 non blood-mages can completely empty a keep full of hundreds of Templars.

Probably DA3 will feature in a full on Mage/Templar war some epic spellcasting then, eh? eh?

I'm not saying that the mages don't deserve freedom or respite, especially if they are the ones unlucky to have powers they themselves have no interest in using or abusing, but what I am saying that this war will not end well for mages. The Chantry definitely has far too much power and spends far too much of that power on things unrelated to fending off the Darkspawn and hell even dealing with REAL mage threats and probably needs to get kicked down an entire ladder, but the whole war is definitely going to kick the entire world back an age. The Dragon Age games as a whole are less about the DarkSpawn and more about an era of stability crumbling to pieces, and it started crumbling long before DA1.

By the time of the war starting, The Templars no longer answer to the Chantry Pope, the Mages have unanimously voted for war after betraying and killing all the people who would have still brokered for peace, and all the people who aren't in the army and don't have magical powers/lyrium are standing in between them.

In war, everyone becomes desperate.

[Krylo]

Originally Posted by PyrosNine

A problem with the idea of mages being helpless is that the mages we see getting victimized are by and large always the weaker ones, and the ones pressed into military service are usually weaker but more theoretically stable fare, not the prodigies and superhumanly magical, whom the Templars can't, and sometimes won't victimize.

Give me 5 named mages who fit this category. Other than from the books, which I haven't read and may, I guess, contain a few.

Note: Being rich (Hawke) or a Grey Warden (The Warden/Anders) doesn't really count.

It's likely that aside from a certain swamp witch, we have yet to see the full strength of mages in force

She's not a mage. She's something different, something similar to, but perhaps not, an abomination. It's been said as much, and theorized she's actually one of the old gods.

such as the like that the Tevinter Imperium wielded.

It's directly stated that the only reason the Imperium Magisters are so powerful is because they did shit like murdering a hundred slaves to power spells.

Anders himself is crazy strong in magic to warrant a full army

Firstly: No he isn't. The only time he does anything that might suggest he's that strong was when he blowed up the chantry, and that was a mixture of alchemy and magic, not just him waving his hand and going boom. He built a bomb.

Secondly: He's an abomination, drawing on the power of an extremely powerful spirit, and he's STILL not more powerful than a well organized group of Templars.

and most of the powerful mages you fight in game are too strong for anyone but your team of superpowered badasses.

When is this stated? The mages you battle in the game are either on the run from the chantry, too weak to even kill a couple common criminals, or attacking from stealth and avoiding gaining the attention of the templars: Something they wouldn't bother doing if Templars weren't a risk for them.

Unless you mean the ABOMINATIONS, in which case, yes. On the other hand, see above about the Chantry causing the vast vast vast majority of abominations themselves.

The Chantry's forces win most fights with mages by sheer numbers

If you consider 3 to 1 as 'sheer numbers' I guess? Especially when you consider that the number of templars is potentially unlimited as, literally, anyone can be a templar, but Mages are an inborn trait and exceedingly rare.

Morrigan + Mage Tower = Every Mage in Ferelden. Compared to how many Templars?

and even then they need Lyrium and people like Hawke/Grey Wardens/Bounty Hunters to bring in the bigger fish.

Nope. This is never shown.

Hawke/the Warden deals with some because they happen to get in the way/they need money/whatever, but even the most powerful mages, even the ones who are capable of craziness like putting demons inside people who are NOT mages, still hide from the Templars. Still know that the Templars could kill them.


And the Chantry isn't ONLY terrible to the mages, either. Should we talk about the Dalish history?

[CABAL49]

Yeah, the problem with mages being this big bad that need to be controlled is that they are still people. Some mages become abominations and use blood magic despite the chantry. But many more don't. And the ones we see using blood magic generally do so out of fear rather than malice.

So this entire society would be better if people where less of dicks.

[Seil]

Aren't we all forgetting something about the templars and the mages?

Nah, no shit.

Decimus is basically Uldred-lite. He attacks Hawke out of a mixture of paranoia that you're working for the Templars, and hatred of the templars. He turned to blood magic to escape, turned to the demons to escape, turned to raising the undead to find safety.

He was driven mad by the chantry. Whether he would have still done something horrible outside the tower or not we'll never know.

Shit.

Hawke, probably, if you run mage- presumably someone who has a mastery of magic and one of the few people to dip into the deeper waters of magic without getting corrupted by it- unless you played that way.

Even if you don't play-through as a mage, it's probably going to turn out that Hawke gets the credit for the destruction of the Chantry. It's less "one rogue mage" and more "Friend of the Champion of Kirkwall who led the charge against Meredith."

The ideal leader would be someone who was calm and balanced enough to lead while also someone capable of tapping into the greater magical powers without becoming an abomination, because such a person would need the greater powers to protect those on their side and defeat aggressors. Otherwise, a leader who did not have that level of control or power in a time of need might feel driven to dig deeper than they were capable of and...become the very opposite of what they mean to show what what mages are.

I'm not sure I completely understand this.

spends far too much of that power on things unrelated to fending off the Darkspawn

...The Chantry doesn't fight the darkspawn. The Chantry has always been about spreading the word of the Maker, holding mass, guarding the Circles of mages.

The Dragon Age games as a whole are less about the DarkSpawn and more about an era of stability crumbling to pieces, and it started crumbling long before DA1.

Since when do these games always need to be about fighting the darkspawn? Yeah, that's what the first game was about, but it also established the Qunari, the Tevinter Emperium, the Elves, the social and royal hierarchy, the mages, the templars, the Chantry, Orlais, the Crows... Does the new game have to have those, too?

By the time of the war starting, The Templars no longer answer to the Chantry Pope, the Mages have unanimously voted for war after betraying and killing all the people who would have still brokered for peace, and all the people who aren't in the army and don't have magical powers/lyrium are standing in between them.

The mages haven't voted on nothing. They didn't even know there was a vote. All they knew was that someone destroyed the chantry, a strong symbol in Kirkwall, and defied the Knight Commander. They're being blamed for something they didn't do, and will probably deal with a lot more prejudice because of that.

Some mages might decide to fight their new aggressors, some might choose to run - but this was all about Anders forcing everyone into a conflict. It was never the decision of anyone else.

In war, everyone becomes desperate.

Firstly: No he isn't. The only time he does anything that might suggest he's that strong was when he blowed up the chantry, and that was a mixture of alchemy and magic, not just him waving his hand and going boom. He built a bomb.

Secondly: He's an abomination, drawing on the power of an extremely powerful spirit, and he's STILL not more powerful than a well organized group of Templars.

Let's take a look at Anders for a second. He's not stable, because of the whole Justice thing, he's not fully in control of the Justice thing, but he's strong in his convictions and did what he thought was best where he could do it. That is, he saw the treatment of the mages, and wanted to change it and he blew up the Chantry to force everyone into a conflict to bring about a global change.

Why did he choose the Chantry? Because it was a symbol. It was a symbol of the Maker and it was a symbol of the Chantry. It was a specially chosen target. The trouble with that is that the nature of the target would bring more ire on the mages, and more enemies than just the templars.

I mean, they could make a case to the elves (the elves know about injustice) in the cities and rebel with them, but who knows how that will turn out?

Hawke/the Warden deals with some because they happen to get in the way/they need money/whatever, but even the most powerful mages, even the ones who are capable of craziness like putting demons inside people who are NOT mages, still hide from the Templars. Still know that the Templars could kill them.


And the Chantry isn't ONLY terrible to the mages, either. Should we talk about the Dalish history?

Well, Morrigan helped out for the purposes of the ritual, Flemeth helped out because she was going to get killed, Wynne helped out for the sake of Thedas, Velanna helped out because the Warden could help her find her sister, Bethany because she's Hawkes sister, and Anders because he can accomplish more with Hawke.

Let's see... nope. Almost every one of those people is a companion, and everyone fell at least once in my party to raiders, bandits, zealots, dwarves, and mercenaries.

So this entire society would be better if people where less of dicks.

To what society is this statement not applicable?

[Krylo]

Originally Posted by Seil

Shit.

But Idunna was working with the people who were jamming demons inside of templars.

I mean, that's a pretty specific target. I don't think they picked templars because they were all 'muahahaha gonna be SUPER EVIL'. At least not initially.

It's true we never really see the background of this cult in its entirety, and they're pretty much crazy demon food by the time you find them--but the fact that they're targeting who they are, with the specific goal of ending the templar control over the mages, says a lot about how they started.