Girls aren't the only ones hurt by being objectified

[Inbred Chocobo]

So, I'm going to take a moment to address Objectification from both aspects, and take a look at the idea of how objectification occurs and why it happens. Personal feelings aside that had caused this thread to generate, I wouldn't mind peering into the idea of objectification of people in general, and why it occurs.

Generally, when we refer to Objectification, we are referring to specifically Sexual Objectification. Basically say we see someone as a sex object, something to release primal desires and end of story. When women experience Objectification, generally it is this class of Objectification that is experienced. Considering societal and cultural views that we have as a human race over sex in general, being viewed as a sexual object suddenly also imposes a large amount of viral and hateful views on a person, all because of a desire.

Thank you to Kim for linking studies that already show already some of the differences between attractive members of both genders, and we already see how Objectification differs. Particularly, what is interesting about the articles is how people perceive the opposite gender. What do you hear about women as they are discussed? Their hair, their dress, how she composes himself, a large amount of topics are always focused on her appearance. That right there is objectification, and we only have to turn on the news channels to see it readily available. What gets dangerous about Objectification here is that we treat it so much ingrained in society, so part of the normal, that it causes incredible amounts of problems. This really is a big problem, in thinking about a person on how they look, how they appear, and judging someone like this causes incredible amounts of internal torment in that person. It is literally something so ingrained in society its hard to recognize as a problem.

So let us take a look at Objectifying men. Particularly, Sexual Objectification, since that is what we have been looking at that women go through. What is interesting is that if you saw watch something like a red carpet watch and an attractive male comes on. While the words like attractive and handsome are thrown around, they never get into a particular perspective. For example there won't be focused discussion on how that tie matches the jacket and his shoes are just to die for. In fact, the standard dress for a man is simple and almost unchanging. You want to shock the red carpet, you wear something like an orange suit. That is as far as crazy dress goes for men, for women, look at Lady Gaga to get an idea.

Men aren't perceived, even on our highest levels, the same way. Even if we are extremely attractive, and girls take a look at a sexual level, the judgement qualities and what is asked is far far different than what objectification happens in women. What really is considered amazing in a man that pushes him is a certain charm, a personality that goes with the person, a state on how he acts, a cool guy. For a woman, personality can range all over the place, no one cares, she just has to have great bobs.

So yes, Men can be Objectified, but do not think for an instant that it is anything comapred to the Objectification of Women.

[Bells]

Originally Posted by Inbred Chocobo

So yes, Men can be Objectified, but do not think for an instant that it is anything comapred to the Objectification of Women.

So, allow me to ask this...

Does this nullify the legitimacy of the complaint of an individual?

If we speak levels, both sides have some. But it is quite obvious that women are waaaaaaay more targetted. But... does that make someone who suffers on the other end of the spectrum less valid? Less worthy of sympathy?


Maybe it's a ''Micro Vs Macro'' correlation, i don't know... what comes to mind is the ''How can you feast at home when there are starving children in africa?!" argument ... i don't claim it to be legitimate, to be honest i would not be able to tell you who valid the comparison would be.... it just came to mind.

[phil_]

Well, Bells, Aero started this topic about how women holding him to an unreasonable concept of beauty makes him feel bad, and it makes him feel worse when people act like objectification only happens to women and he'd like that to stop. Problem is, the "acting like only women are objectified" being done is "discussing the objectification of women." And this happens a lot, people asking that discussion of the objectification of women cease because that's acting like men aren't objectified. It happens so often four people ahead of me already had thought out statements on the matter ready to go. But, in reality, discussing the objectification of women isn't acting like men aren't objectified: it's discussing the objectification of women.

To borrow your starving children in Africa metaphor, the request that people stop acting like men aren't objectified (when, again, all that's happening is that women are being discussed) is akin to "Why are we talking about starving kids in Africa, I haven't had anything to eat in hours!" Which, on a micro level of, say, conversation on a road trip would be acceptable; but on the macro level of "things we're allowed to talk about" really isn't.

[Solid Snake]

Originally Posted by phil_

Well, Bells, Aero started this topic about how women holding him to an unreasonable concept of beauty makes him feel bad

...I'm just not sure whether I believe this is actually what's happening, as opposed to what Aero believes is happening.

Like, are women in Aero's life treating him solely as a sexual object, giving him a 'subpar' rating, and then discarding him in totality as a person and not just as a potential sexual partner solely on a perceived lack of sexual utility? If so, then yes, that's objectification.

But often when men talk about being "objectified" they're really just referencing being upset that women they like don't find them equally attractive. Which actually becomes misogynistic in a sense because the complaint is that men feel they 'deserve' or are 'entitled' to be desired.

It's rare in the context of our patriarchal power structures in society for women to be able to judge a man as 'unworthy' based solely upon physical appearance and then to completely minimize or negate any other compelling contribution as a person the man could make. Despite the fact that I am not incredibly physically attractive, for example, I know that men and women see in me a self-made identity as an intelligent, over-analytical lawyer who's accomplished a fair deal in terms of an education. A woman with the exact same credentials as me would not be viewed by many men in a similarly well-rounded way with the same strengths and accomplishments, unrelated to appearance. That's the problem of objectification that applies in a vastly disproportionate sense to women.

And the fear is that men often want to hijack that language of objectification and apply it to circumstances where they're really just complaining that women who DO value those men as people nonetheless view them as 'unattractive' or 'ugly' or 'undesirable.' And yes, there's a healthy conversation to be had there about unrealistic standards of beauty, but that's not the same conversation as one about objectification.

---------- Post added at 06:30 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:22 PM ----------

Like, please tell me you all can see this: The problem with objectification in a sexual context is "the act of treating a person solely as an instrument of sexual pleasure."

When I read Aero's complaints it strikes me that he's complaining about not being viewed as a potential instrument of sexual pleasure at all by women who he wishes would desire him in that way, which is, y'know, kind of the opposite of the problem of sexual objectification, in which women [and maybe really attractive men too] are just reduced to a walking, talking set of sexual organs designed for others' pleasure.

[Kim]

snake's post is good and i like it

[Seil]

DareLondon set up a hidden-camera experiment to see how strangers would react to seeing domestic abuse for ManKind’s #ViolenceIsViolence campaign.

A couple (portrayed by actors) in a London park get into a heated argument and things begin to get out of hand. The man begins to physically abuse his “girlfriend.”

Onlookers immediately notice and take action. One woman even walks up to the guy yelling, “What’s wrong with you?”

More women gather around, and even threaten to call the police.

Then the situation changes. The actors re-create the same scenario, except this time the woman is abusing the man.

This time, bystanders react a little differently…

No one even attempts to help the guy, and people seem more entertained than anything.

As the dispute carries on, the video reveals a rather surprising statistic:

[phil_]

And that's something worth discussing, Seil, but we don't need to stop all discussion of objectification of women in order to discuss double-standards of domestic violence, nor does discussing one belittle or prevent discussion of the other. This is a very important thing to understand if you're going to get into social justice issues without going into full-on, "nothing is getting through here" defense mode as a het cis white male etc.

[Kim]

If Seil's statistic is accurate, which is something I'm currently looking into, then it is a serious problem and one worth discussing. It is, of course, a natural side-effect of patriarchal ideas about gender. When society is taught that Men Are Strong And Women Are Weak, or that Men Are Dominant And Women Submissive, violence against men by women will be seen as less of an issue because Men Are Strong And Women Are Weak. It's part of why ideas of strength and its relationship to gender need to be dismantled. Patriarchy hurts men and women, it's just that the men are unintended victims. Of course, that is a different discussion than sexualization and objectification, but whatever.

I would like to see more about this particularly statistic, tho. In particular, how they gathered their information and what factors may have influenced the results one way or another. I am not a statistician tho so unless I hear from folks who know better I will treat this statistic as valid in this thread until shown otherwise.

[shiney]

Originally Posted by Solid Snake

You may well be in a position where you're being treated poorly by society, Aero, but I just don't think you're being treated poorly because you're white and/or male.

Yeah I'm gonna ^^THIS here. 'Cause, this.

Typed up a bunch more. Deleted it. No need to pile on here because people have already said everything I was going to. I sympathize with you, but I also agree with Snake. As a white male the term 'privilege' annoys me because to me, it feels like I am being judged because of what my peers do, but that doesn't change the fact that I as a white male don't have to put up with the BS that literally every single human being who is not both white and male do.

[Inbred Chocobo]

Originally Posted by Bells

So, allow me to ask this...

Does this nullify the legitimacy of the complaint of an individual?

If we speak levels, both sides have some. But it is quite obvious that women are waaaaaaay more targetted. But... does that make someone who suffers on the other end of the spectrum less valid? Less worthy of sympathy?


Maybe it's a ''Micro Vs Macro'' correlation, i don't know... what comes to mind is the ''How can you feast at home when there are starving children in africa?!" argument ... i don't claim it to be legitimate, to be honest i would not be able to tell you who valid the comparison would be.... it just came to mind.

I guess the point here that I am trying to convey is that trying to push is that trying to make this comparison.

"I know those African children are starving, but I forgot my lunch today and man I am hungry."