Eclipse Phase: Frosted Glass Discussion - Page 28

Geminex · 06-03-2010, 07:45 AM

May I interpret this edit as an admission of your being at fault?

Edit: As for something actually relevant:

Quote:

It did, in much the same way you don't have to manually request every single picture and piece of text on this page to load. If you had to personally say yes or no to every publicly streamed AR feed pointed your way, you'd go crazy!

Fair enough. But, assuming that later, Spectre for some reason decides to jump on the chair. Or just walks past it. Will he know that the chair's just AR? I don't think the manual's really specific on that.

Dracorion · 06-03-2010, 07:48 AM

I can't believe you're bringing Umbral crap into this RP, but yes.

And the chair is real. The illusion was Tyrfing moving it.

Krylo · 06-03-2010, 07:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Geminex

May I interpret this edit as an admission of your being at fault?

May I interpret your face as an admission of you being ugly?

Quote:

Fair enough. But, assuming that later, Spectre for some reason decides to jump on the chair. Or just walks past it. Will he know that the chair's just AR? I don't think the manual's really specific on that.

The chair isn't AR. The chair is real.

What is AR is that the chair moved out.

As for how real it seems: Very. AR illusions, like XPs, can affect all your senses, sight, sound, smell, and even touch to an extent, because your mesh is wired into your brain.

As proof of this you could check out the AR Games section of the fluff starting on page 53, where it describes what basically amounts to super future LARPing. However, it also explains that some AR Games have resulted in injury/temporary death due to people being unable to tell what, exactly, was part of the game.

For example: "A few unscrupulous AR game designers used their game as a cover for an actual robbery or act of terrorism that was abetted by unwitting players who thought their actions were simply part of a game."

Though the section on AR illusions kind of describes this, as well, which you can check out on page 259.

"The best illusions are, of course, crafted in advance, using the best image and sensory manipulation tools available. Such illusions are hyper-realistic. Anyone making a Perception Test to identify them as fake suffers a �10 to �30 modifier (gamemaster�s discretion)."

And an example of how it affects all your senses:

"For example, dark illusory clouds can obscure vision, ear-wrenching high-volume noises can make people cringe, and a persistent tickling sensation might drive anyone crazy."

HOWEVER, as that she's wearing impossible clothing, I think we can all assume we know Tyrfing is an AR illusion, and as such, it would be a simple matter to tell your AR to filter out her illusions and see the chair where it really is, quite empty.

Geminex · 06-03-2010, 08:00 AM

I know that the chair's real. But it's displaced. It's not where it appears to be, since she moved the AR-version.
I'm not objecting to AR, of course, but the fact that other users can edit our AR. I was under the impression that AR was meant to be a mix between entertainment system (with music and skins) and information relay system. So sure, edit her own AR. But where does it say that she can edit ours?

Edit:
Ok... right. Still bugs me, but fine. Isn't it possible to tell our muse to filter all external AR illusions?

Quote:

May I interpret your face as an admission of you being ugly?

You can take my freedom! You can take my dignity! But you cannot take my right to be petty!
Especially about claims to infalliability!

Edit2:
Actually, wait! The part you're referring to, that discusses the creation of illusions in others' AR. But to insert an AR illusion into a mesh, you need to hack and invade said mesh. If she were to hack all our meshes, sure, she could make us see the chair however she wants to. But she hasn't hacked us, she's just creating said AR for herself and is somehow... broadcasting it?

Krylo · 06-03-2010, 08:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Geminex

I know that the chair's real. But it's displaced. It's not where it appears to be, since she moved the AR-version.
I'm not objecting to AR, of course, but the fact that other users can edit our AR. I was under the impression that AR was meant to be a mix between entertainment system (with music and skins) and information relay system. So sure, edit her own AR. But where does it say that she can edit ours?

Page 248 gives a pretty good hint of this describing the AR mist. Your AR is CONSTANTLY being acted upon by outside forces. You are seeing advertisements floating in mid-air for Joe's Crab Shack down on Deck 13 (assuming your filtering let an ad for that through, because you like crab), when you go down to the Crab Shack, Joe doesn't have a physically posted menu, instead there is an AR illusion overlaid next to the tables you sit at that reads out everything you could order. On your way down there are no physical directory signs on the walls, but the Station has put up AR illusions of arrows and read outs directing you (and you can pull up a map overlay using your own mesh as well).

Adjusting to the lack of this is actually explained as one of the hardest to deal with things when exploring an exoplanet.

Edit:

Quote:

Isn't it possible to tell our muse to filter all external AR illusions?

Yes, but it would be comparable to say, gouging out your ear drums in the real world because you didn't want to hear your MP3 of Barbie Girl anymore, instead of just shutting off the player.

Geminex · 06-03-2010, 08:22 AM

Ah... fair enough. I should have read that bit more thoroughly. I take it we can also use mist to our advantage?

Arhra · 06-03-2010, 08:31 AM

I meant to suggest that the chair was in the exact same place as it had started. Basically so far in under the desk that you could sit in it, but you'd have to pull it out to get seated.

On the subject of how real it is, it's not intended to be duplicitous, so Tyrfing would be clearly tagged as a virtual construct.

I assume that if you were about to run into something your sense filters were blocking from your view or do something like sit on a chair that's not there, the filter program or your muse would step in to warn you.

Like trying to touch that AR window in this room for example. Not only is there no cityscape, there's probably no recess in the wall for there to be a window at all. If you tried to put your hand on the glass, you'd hit the invisible barrier that is the blank bulkhead that's really there. You might hurt yourself by thinking the surface is still several centimeters away, so it'd probably warn you.

(Well, unless it was an AR game and duped your sensory input to make you think you'd extended your arm further. But AR games are much more intrusive than regular mesh AR.)

Geminex · 06-03-2010, 08:58 AM

Kaaay...
Just lemme consider the combat implications of this. Like, could I make an enemy ignore the flash of my barrel by telling him that it's not there? Because it'd make sense, randomly flashing lights would just distract a securty guard!
...
Ok, not the most inspired example, but I can't help but think that if there's a way to make people perceive reality differently without their noticing, necessarily, there's got to be a way to exploit that for killing people more easily.

Krylo · 06-03-2010, 09:01 AM

Problem is you have to make it appear to be a 'legitimate' AR Illusion and route it through the public mesh to get them from the outside.

Lind, Henric, and Tyrfing all have the programming abilities to probably do that, and the infosec to hack someone's mesh (given time) and implant more devious ones.

Spectre? Not so much. (Edit: Apparently he does have pretty decent infosec, but beside the point)

This is, however, why 'tech guys' are good to have. Even multiples of, because we could say... hack the spimes (where more of us would be good) or hack the database where the spimes are kept and upload a facial recognition/deletion program designed to erase all traces of you (who would be using infiltration to get wherever) from the public record and then delete itself.

Just as a for instance.

Geminex · 06-03-2010, 09:16 AM

Quote:

This is, however, why 'tech guys' are good to have. Even multiples of, because we could say... hack the spimes (where more of us would be good) or hack the database where the spimes are kept and upload a facial recognition/deletion program designed to erase all traces of you (who would be using infiltration to get wherever) from the public record and then delete itself.

Yeah, tech guys are definitely good. Hence my infosec skill... I had, I think, freerunning instead, initially, but I thought infosec'd be more useful. I hope to expand on it when I get Rez. Though I can't actually use it offensively, yet, I don't have the appropriate program. Can I copy that from one of you, or is it assumed to be copy-protected?

Anyway, back to what we're discussing. From what I've gatherd from your replies, and the manual... Basically, we assume that everyone can use... let's call them "cosmetic" AR illusions, but for anything with an actual impact on the game, you need to hack someone's mesh? Is that about right? I'd be fine with that.

06-03-2010, 07:48 AM	#272
Dracorion Moves Like Jagger, Kupo! Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: To the south, a little to the left... Or to the right. Posts: 4,910	I can't believe you're bringing Umbral crap into this RP, but yes. And the chair is real. The illusion was Tyrfing moving it. __________________ Dracorion's dumbass color is Royal Blue. If you see that color, you better run the fuck away. Last edited by Dracorion; 06-03-2010 at 07:55 AM.

06-03-2010, 08:31 AM	#277
Arhra Ara ara! Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Neo Venezia Posts: 5,013	I meant to suggest that the chair was in the exact same place as it had started. Basically so far in under the desk that you could sit in it, but you'd have to pull it out to get seated. On the subject of how real it is, it's not intended to be duplicitous, so Tyrfing would be clearly tagged as a virtual construct. I assume that if you were about to run into something your sense filters were blocking from your view or do something like sit on a chair that's not there, the filter program or your muse would step in to warn you. Like trying to touch that AR window in this room for example. Not only is there no cityscape, there's probably no recess in the wall for there to be a window at all. If you tried to put your hand on the glass, you'd hit the invisible barrier that is the blank bulkhead that's really there. You might hurt yourself by thinking the surface is still several centimeters away, so it'd probably warn you. (Well, unless it was an AR game and duped your sensory input to make you think you'd extended your arm further. But AR games are much more intrusive than regular mesh AR.) __________________ This post is a good source of Ara ara, ufufu.* These statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. This post is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease. Last edited by Arhra; 06-03-2010 at 09:10 AM.*

06-03-2010, 09:01 AM	#279
Krylo The Straightest Shota Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: It's a secret to everybody. Posts: 17,789	Problem is you have to make it appear to be a 'legitimate' AR Illusion and route it through the public mesh to get them from the outside. Lind, Henric, and Tyrfing all have the programming abilities to probably do that, and the infosec to hack someone's mesh (given time) and implant more devious ones. Spectre? Not so much. (Edit: Apparently he does have pretty decent infosec, but beside the point) This is, however, why 'tech guys' are good to have. Even multiples of, because we could say... hack the spimes (where more of us would be good) or hack the database where the spimes are kept and upload a facial recognition/deletion program designed to erase all traces of you (who would be using infiltration to get wherever) from the public record and then delete itself. Just as a for instance. __________________ I am very tired. Last edited by Krylo; 06-03-2010 at 09:03 AM.

06-03-2010, 08:22 AM	#276
Geminex SOM3WH3R3 Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 4,606	Ah... fair enough. I should have read that bit more thoroughly. I take it we can also use mist to our advantage?

06-03-2010, 08:58 AM	#278
Geminex SOM3WH3R3 Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 4,606	Kaaay... Just lemme consider the combat implications of this. Like, could I make an enemy ignore the flash of my barrel by telling him that it's not there? Because it'd make sense, randomly flashing lights would just distract a securty guard! ... Ok, not the most inspired example, but I can't help but think that if there's a way to make people perceive reality differently without their noticing, necessarily, there's got to be a way to exploit that for killing people more easily.