Adoption versus biological birth

[Wigmund]

Originally Posted by CABAL49

I am happy just being an uncle. I just don't see myself being a father exactly, but I enjoy being around kids. If I had to pick I would adopt rather than have my own kid.

Same here about being an uncle. Never felt happier in my life there.

But as to adopting vs having my own kids, I think I still want to have my own biologically. I know it's silly after all this, but there is a feeling deep down inside that leads me this way. Maybe it's the same drive that led my dad to have another child biologically despite the fact he's 52 yrs old and my step-mom is over 40 (my dad's third biologically out of four overall), or that drove my grandfather to have over 16 children from the 1920's to the 1960's (he was 63 when my dad was born). It's in the blood.

But if it came down to it, either me or my wife/girlfriend are infertile or she wants to adopt instead of going through all the fun on her end, I would gladly adopt a child and treat the kid as my own.


Actually, now I'm curious as to whether there's a poll out there that lists preferences of biological vs adopting children and how it divides male vs female and other demographics.

[BitVyper]

There's a creative urge; libido in the Jungian sense of the word. And I can certainly see why people would want to use a piece of themselves. Plus there's the likelihood of some commonality between yourself and your own offspring. And there's something to be said for raising something from day 1, although I'm sure there are a lot of newborns who need parents too. Some people may also just honestly feel that they wouldn't care as much for an adopted child, in which case yeah, adopting probably isn't the option for them. There may be some fear regarding what one tells the child too.

Really, it's not like one is inherently better than the other, and I can't see why someone would be against adoption even if they didn't want to adopt (yes I know there are people who are, but that doesn't mean they have valid reasons). There's all sorts of reasons to do one or the other, and it's a very personal decision. You can't exactly come up with a standard response.

[Magus]

From what I've read here, the issue mainly seems to be about how people feel about adoption in Western culture. Are there cultures where it isn't a big deal at all, mainly ones that traditionally have extended families anyway, where adopting a child not related to you at all wouldn't seem much more odd than taking care of your second cousin?

[katiuska]

Originally Posted by pocheros

Katiuska: Don't call yourself selfish for not wanting to raise kids. There's already plenty of needy kids in the world and there's no risk of the earth's population declining into dangerously low numbers (even then, it's not like it's our duty to propagate our own species, unless one subscribes to an animalistic philosophy), so there's nothing wrong with being child-free. I'm in the same boat as you and I'm still baffled when people call me selfish for not wanting to have kids. Or worse, they'll say "Oh, you're gonna have kids anyways." Yes. Because I am female and therefore am destined to reproduce, and am unable to make my own lifestyle choices. Or I'm too young to comprehend life without kids. Give me a break. e_e

Guh... yeah, I've run into that. I'm nervous about when it comes time for me to go and act on it, because I've heard stories of the kind of crap young women get when they seek sterilization, from doctors who assume that they don't know what they want, because if they did, they wouldn't be seeking sterilization. I mean, I get that people change/grow/learn and it's not a minor decision, but I've spent years thinking about this and I've honestly never wanted kids since I was like in elementary school and thought that's just what girls did. I don't know what more you can ask.

I say it's selfish because my reasons have more to do with this:

Originally Posted by Krylo

But there's also the "I don't want to spend nine months being sick, throwing up in the mornings, having a sore back, being a hormonal wreck, and all of this culminating nine months later in the most pain that I am ever likely to feel in my life."

(plus all the sacrifices that come after it leaves my body) than conscience about adding yet more people to the pool. But don't get me wrong, I still think it's a perfectly valid choice. I don't owe anyone babies, and if I tried to take on responsibility when I didn't want it and didn't need to, it's possible it would just make all of us unhappy.

Originally Posted by TheWolf13

Her reasoning was that she enjoyed being pregnant. While I have to say that there is an awe of watching a child grow in my wife's belly it was something I could live without. For my wife though it was an experience that she didn't want to give up.

There's also this side of it, but... I don't know. I can't even imagine how I'd feel, but I don't have that urge to find out.

Originally Posted by Krylo

Depends on how he argued it, I guess. If he was like, "Our genes are SO AWESOME that the world NEEDS MORE OF THEM" then sure, that's pretty arrogant and douchey, but there is an argument to be made here.

Yeah, it was the former.

Originally Posted by Krylo

(probably not your own kids either--no offense)

It's cool. I have a cousin who's... I don't know if he's Steven Hawking smart, but he's "graduated at the top of his class in math at CalTech" smart... but that's him, not me. We like to bring this up sometimes (kinda like I'm doing now) as if it says something about us, but even by the cousin level you start getting fairly removed. (Admittedly not far enough removed that I was willing to argue for cousin marriage in that one thread, but yeah.) It can cut both ways, as thinking about him reminds me of the things I haven't accomplished. None of my family is dumb, but by and large we all live pretty average lives.

Said boyfriend actually went to CalTech too, but he left because he couldn't deal with the stress, so that brings him closer to where I am (but not at it, since no school with prestige would have even accepted me). That was a humbling experience, but you get the impression that he still thinks he's up there in terms of raw smarts. At least some of that is his upbringing--his parents are very bourgeois and did a lot to impress the idea that he was better than other people, or at least he should be, and he resents the fact that he was pushed into a position he wasn't equiped for. But he still basically believes the idea that, if you act like the best, who knows, maybe you'll make it true. I don't know, I see the merit in always striving to better oneself, but I've had enough humbling experiences of my own that I don't quite have the nerve to imagine that I could ever be special... and by extension, I don't think my kids really would be either.

[Mirai Gen]

(plus all the sacrifices that come after it leaves my body) than conscience about adding yet more people to the pool. But don't get me wrong, I still think it's a perfectly valid choice. I don't owe anyone babies, and if I tried to take on responsibility when I didn't want it and didn't need to, it's possible it would just make all of us unhappy.

A chick friend of mine, Stephanie, after she had her kid oddly enough said that, despite the pain and everything, it was oddly enjoyable, and her husband Michael compared it to getting a tattoo; basically the pain is pretty awful but powering through gives you a kind of weird rush of excitement, and once it's over you start to think, you know, it really wasn't so bad.

Guh... yeah, I've run into that. I'm nervous about when it comes time for me to go and act on it, because I've heard stories of the kind of crap young women get when they seek sterilization, from doctors who assume that they don't know what they want, because if they did, they wouldn't be seeking sterilization. I mean, I get that people change/grow/learn and it's not a minor decision, but I've spent years thinking about this and I've honestly never wanted kids since I was like in elementary school and thought that's just what girls did. I don't know what more you can ask.

There's nothing wrong with being firmly stated in this area - I have a few friends who are going on 45+ and they're in good health and don't have kids just for the sheer purpose of not wanting them. I think that once you get to about that age there's very little likelihood that you're changing your mind.

[CelesJessa]

Originally Posted by Krylo

I'd, personally, take that one a step further though and say that adopting babies is nearly as bad on that front as having your own--as that infants almost always get adopted anyway, but 5-17 year olds? Yeah, no.

On one hand, I'm all for the special needs adoptions (which included handicapped children and older children), but still, in the event of if the choice was "Adopt a baby or don't adopt at all" I would still prefer the adoption since, after all, the older kids come from somewhere.

I thought I quoted something else but I guess not, but anyway, I find the whole "I don't know if I could love someone not born of my DNA like a naturally born child" very intriguing, as most all of us are expected to love quite a few people who aren't genetically related to us, including our spouses, and other family members we're related to by marriage rather than birth. I just think it's an interesting thing to think about.


I was talking to my mom about the topic and she brought up that you have to take into consideration the reasons why people adopt too. Some people adopt because they can't have a child of their own, while some people adopt because they want to help someone and give them a loving home. Like, for example, my aunt and uncle. They had their first two kids naturally, and after a long time (both kids were in middle school/high school) they decided that they were well off enough and could provide a good home for a child in need, so they adopted well after they had decided to stop having kids. And then there are the people like my mom's friend who adopted their niece after her parents had been killed. I'm not sure what consequence the different mindsets have, but I think it definitely can be something to consider.

Of course you could be like my brother and sister-in-law and have what I call an "unplanned adoption". Which sounds completely impossible and ridiculous, but there you have it.

In the defense of natural birth, adoption can be a huge pain in the butt. My nephew still isn't officially adopted after four years of living with my brother and sister-in-law, which is a huge pain in the butt and can get expensive because as it takes longer and longer, you have to go keep updating your files and such, getting re fingerprinted, etc. Not to mention the constant pressure of "he's not really technically yours yet so if something goes wrong, you could lose him."

And there's the unavoidable fact that the kid has had influences outside of your own, which can be a separate hurdle to tackle. My nephew was only 6 when he came to our family, but he had already been removed from another adoptive family that... weren't the best people in the world, and who failed to send him to school, which has ended up with my nephew being a couple years behind where he should be at his age.

So with that kind of thing in mind I can understand people having some reservations about adopting a kid, because it can be hard to have to talk to your kid/nephew about how their previous family treated them/didn't want them.

[pochercoaster]

Originally Posted by katiuska

I say it's selfish because my reasons have more to do with this:

<stuff>

(plus all the sacrifices that come after it leaves my body) than conscience about adding yet more people to the pool. But don't get me wrong, I still think it's a perfectly valid choice. I don't owe anyone babies, and if I tried to take on responsibility when I didn't want it and didn't need to, it's possible it would just make all of us unhappy..

I should've elaborated. Selfishness means you're witholding something someone else needs when you don't need it. If there is no other person to withhold from (a child), then how could being childless be selfish? After all, your own well being comes first; if preserving the lifestyle that you enjoy means having no kids it's perfectly rational. You shouldn't try to give when you don't want to give, as you already stated.

That's obvious but it irritates the hell out of me when people give me that kind of illogical reasoning. XD I'm not a big fan of arguments that involve the well-being of 6.7 billion people, simply because it's impossible to care about that many people. Although my first post only mentioned the latter. Dur.

[Funka Genocide]

I think people continue to raise children late into life because they forget how to find fulfillment through other means. The general pattern is to pop out a baby (either because you're socially expected to or because hey, baby making is pretty fun) and then adapt to life with a child, after which point you end up some weird parental type who treats their life as though it has ended and now you only exist for the furthering of your gene seed, so you put all your effort into raising your clones and that's that.

I'm sure this isn't always the case, or that its not always such an extreme reaction, but in general that's the way it goes.

Considering the breadth of modern experience though, there isn't much point to raising children from my perspective. All you really get out of it is a bigger grocery bill and a retarded person that will listen to you sometimes for approximately twelve years, after which they become slightly less retarded and a whole lot more annoying.

Why do that when you could spend your time blasting your biceps in the gym and waxing your porsche?

[Mirai Gen]

Originally Posted by Funka Genocide

I think people raise children, in general, because they forget how to find fulfillment through other means.

<snip>

I'm sure this isn't always the case, or that its not always such an extreme reaction, but in general that's the way it goes.

Considering the breadth of modern experience though, there isn't much point to raising children from my perspective. All you really get out of it is a bigger grocery bill and a retarded person that will listen to you sometimes for approximately twelve years, after which they become slightly less retarded and a whole lot more annoying.

Why do that when you could spend your time blasting your biceps in the gym and waxing your porsche?

I...um...

Wow Funka you have seriously rendered me utterly speechless.

[Funka Genocide]

Reasons to have kids:

Species Propagation: you want to help ensure the continuance of the human race. Also see: societal/religious obligation

Egotism: a sort of slice of immortality, or the thought that your offspring would be so vastly superior that the world could not turn without you and your lover bumping uglies fo' reallies. Or, if adopted, that the manner in which you would raise a child not of your ilk would produce a superior product.

Self Fulfillment: for any number of reasons, you believe children will constitute a serious portion of your life's endeavors, you seek personal satisfaction through the process of raising children.

Reasons why these aren't necessary.

There are enough people churning out babies that your contribution will not be missed.

Your ego isn't that important.

You can find something else to do with your time, that will likely be a hell of a lot more fun than changing diapers and arguing with hormonal teenagers.

Of course there's sort of a hidden reason there too, the thought of dying alone in your old age with no children there to comfort you or see you off, but considering the likelihood that they'll just stick your ass in a home, you'd be better off saving the money and getting yourself a personal nurse for when the plumbing goes.

The only really viable reason for raising a child is because you want to, because it is something you would take pleasure in, and since taste is really subjective there's nothing wrong with that outcome. It's like people who enjoy watching baseball on television, I don't really get it but they're not wrong for liking it.

EDIT: oh, and in my first post I meant to say "continue to raise children" as in, when people continually strive to get pregnant/have babies around as long as humanly possible. Considering the time and effort necessary to raise a child, the only explanation for such activity is a sort of co-dependency wherein the parent is defined by the process of child rearing to an extent they find it difficult to live without children.