Presidential Debate 3: The Sacred Stones - Page 5

Mirai Gen · 10-17-2008, 09:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mesden

Obama cuts taxes on lower and middle income tax payers even though McCain cuts more taxes across the board. It depends on which tax cuts you support. If you like Lower Income tax cuts the most then you should be looking at Obama, if you support larger tax cuts for higher income and for larger families (I believe over 3 kids gets a noticeably better increase with McCain's over Obama's), then McCain is your fellow. If all tax cuts are created Equal then probably McCain.

You didn't really clarify since tax cuts are kind of a broad issue, of which Both Candidates have puhlenty of.

I think what he was saying is that the McCain has been resorting to tax cuts as some sort of 'magic wand' that will fix any problem and thereby dodge every single question thrown at him, and his frustration that his own political party's (ahem) 'strongest candidate' has been reduced to this sort of nonsense.

Mesden · 10-17-2008, 09:50 PM

He specifically stated that lower taxes was a talking point for McCain, and it kind of is, unless it isn't.

Mirai Gen · 10-17-2008, 10:01 PM

Oh okay, now I see it.

When you quoted the whole thing it threw me off.

Terex4 · 10-18-2008, 12:04 AM

I noticed in this one that everytime McCain had a retort to something Obama said, he had a tone of voice like this was the retort that was going to win the election.

He had a very flighty, "why don't you see what I see" demeaor.

Sithdarth · 10-18-2008, 12:52 AM

I just want to know why do some people here seem to be so mindbogglingly afraid of anything that sounds remotely socialists that they'd back a candidate with apparently very little planned for fixing the country instead of risking it. That is putting aside the fact that there seems to be some heavily negative connotations associated with the word socialism as its been used recently in this thread.

I mean if we look at the facts socialism isn't doing all that bad for its citizens in Europe. I'm not very up on whats going on in Europe myself but a quick google search suggests they're doing at least marginally better than us and ever posted an overall stock gain. The school systems are certainly better and while the health care isn't always a match for ours are least its a bit more consistent over a wider range of incomes. At the very least you can't really point out an objective example in which modern/slight socialism has been bad for a country. Obviously its happened before but always in the extreme case or when corrupted by the people in power and lets face it Capitalism and Democracy have faced the same indignities more than once.

In short, I'm trying to do my best to check my preconceptions about social policy at the door in this one and go about it as objectively and factually as possible. You can't really make the argument that what's been done so far is working so I say as long as someone anyone has a fair reasonable and logical plan, hopefully with safeguards, let them try it and see where it goes.

Lord Setheris · 10-18-2008, 01:17 AM

Socialism, democracy, communism, theology, capitalism.

These are just words that back up unreasonably huge ideals. And these ideals themselves often made up of multiple conflicting view points.

The fact is no stable society with millions or billions of people can operate without finding a combination of these ideals.

We have been programmed find flaws in these systems and to fear them. We are human beings, and the human is not a logical or stable creature. We will always have undesirables, lazy, racists, bigots, geniuses, gurus, priests, and visionaries. Our society must evolve beyond its current notions. What good is a society if it is not a stable one? I consider any society that can't pass on the rights it enjoys to the next generation to be a failure.

I truly believe that our world can and eventually will achieve a greater understanding an appreciation for life and living, but that in order to do so we will have to accept ideologies from all of the types of government in order to establish a long-lasting and fair society.

However on topic I agree about McCain. He seems to have a very strong, "why the hell don't you see what I see," kind of attitude towards things.

Zilla · 10-18-2008, 02:08 AM

I was thinking the same thing, socialism isn't inherently bad. There are fundamental differences from a pure competitive capitalism society. However, that does mean it is an evil thing and that capitalism stands for everything right and sacred about America. Socialism actually embodies the idea of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness much more closely than strictly competitive capitalism. You know, when I think about it, America wasn't founded on notions of capitalism at all. We were founded by a movement to make a government of the people, by the people, and for the people, and to more closely realize the system of democracy set forth by the ancient greeks as opposed to the popular monarchical systems of the day. Socialism and democracy are not mutually exclusive, and in fact, can compliment each other quite nicely. The whole Social Darwinism, lasseiz-faire government approach is not a core fundamental of American government but just one facet that has been passed down and magnified by some until it became equated with "The American Dream."

Pip Boy · 10-18-2008, 09:52 AM

Yes, its getting to the point that all McCain has to do is point and say "OH NOES! COMMIE-U-NISM" and everyone jumps up and freaks out. A level of governmental control that ensures the entire economy doesn't twist itself into some disfigured malfunctioning pile is not communism, its common sense. The entire point in the government is to, well, govern. Like Setheris said, no government can function solely on one political idealism. A certain balance of ideas must be maintained. After all, what is the criminal justice system but a set of governmental regulations that prevent people from doing things that are harmful to the communities around them? How is it any different for the government to do what is right and necessary to stabalize the economy?

Lord Setheris · 10-18-2008, 07:50 PM

The Chicago Tribune is officially endorsing Barak Obama for president.

The Tribune is not known for backing democrats.

Zilla · 10-18-2008, 10:18 PM

Well, he is from Illinois...

I do like the comparisons that can be drawn between Barack and Lincoln. Both were "inexperianced" senators from Illinois, and they're both tall.

10-17-2008, 09:50 PM	#42
Mesden There is no Toph, only Melon Lord! Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Inside of a box inside of a smaller box Posts: 4,310	He specifically stated that lower taxes was a talking point for McCain, and it kind of is, unless it isn't. __________________ I can tell you're lying.

10-17-2008, 10:01 PM	#43
Mirai Gen We are Geth. Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 14,032	Oh okay, now I see it. When you quoted the whole thing it threw me off. __________________

10-18-2008, 01:17 AM	#46
Lord Setheris A Guardian Angel Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Colorado Posts: 1,311	Socialism, democracy, communism, theology, capitalism. These are just words that back up unreasonably huge ideals. And these ideals themselves often made up of multiple conflicting view points. The fact is no stable society with millions or billions of people can operate without finding a combination of these ideals. We have been programmed find flaws in these systems and to fear them. We are human beings, and the human is not a logical or stable creature. We will always have undesirables, lazy, racists, bigots, geniuses, gurus, priests, and visionaries. Our society must evolve beyond its current notions. What good is a society if it is not a stable one? I consider any society that can't pass on the rights it enjoys to the next generation to be a failure. I truly believe that our world can and eventually will achieve a greater understanding an appreciation for life and living, but that in order to do so we will have to accept ideologies from all of the types of government in order to establish a long-lasting and fair society. However on topic I agree about McCain. He seems to have a very strong, "why the hell don't you see what I see," kind of attitude towards things. __________________ As a 21 year old virgin, I'm strongly opposed to anything that reminds me that people are having sex in high school.

10-18-2008, 02:08 AM	#47
Zilla Lakitu Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 2,378	I was thinking the same thing, socialism isn't inherently bad. There are fundamental differences from a pure competitive capitalism society. However, that does mean it is an evil thing and that capitalism stands for everything right and sacred about America. Socialism actually embodies the idea of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness much more closely than strictly competitive capitalism. You know, when I think about it, America wasn't founded on notions of capitalism at all. We were founded by a movement to make a government of the people, by the people, and for the people, and to more closely realize the system of democracy set forth by the ancient greeks as opposed to the popular monarchical systems of the day. Socialism and democracy are not mutually exclusive, and in fact, can compliment each other quite nicely. The whole Social Darwinism, lasseiz-faire government approach is not a core fundamental of American government but just one facet that has been passed down and magnified by some until it became equated with "The American Dream." __________________ MENCHI Pink It's cowboy time, I'm so MENCHI right now. Metroid is a great man because his friends don't rape him.

10-18-2008, 07:50 PM	#49
Lord Setheris A Guardian Angel Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Colorado Posts: 1,311	The Chicago Tribune is officially endorsing Barak Obama for president. The Tribune is not known for backing democrats. __________________ As a 21 year old virgin, I'm strongly opposed to anything that reminds me that people are having sex in high school.

10-18-2008, 12:52 AM	#45
Sithdarth Friendly Neighborhood Quantum Hobo Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Outside the M-brane look'n in Posts: 5,403	I just want to know why do some people here seem to be so mindbogglingly afraid of anything that sounds remotely socialists that they'd back a candidate with apparently very little planned for fixing the country instead of risking it. That is putting aside the fact that there seems to be some heavily negative connotations associated with the word socialism as its been used recently in this thread. I mean if we look at the facts socialism isn't doing all that bad for its citizens in Europe. I'm not very up on whats going on in Europe myself but a quick google search suggests they're doing at least marginally better than us and ever posted an overall stock gain. The school systems are certainly better and while the health care isn't always a match for ours are least its a bit more consistent over a wider range of incomes. At the very least you can't really point out an objective example in which modern/slight socialism has been bad for a country. Obviously its happened before but always in the extreme case or when corrupted by the people in power and lets face it Capitalism and Democracy have faced the same indignities more than once. In short, I'm trying to do my best to check my preconceptions about social policy at the door in this one and go about it as objectively and factually as possible. You can't really make the argument that what's been done so far is working so I say as long as someone anyone has a fair reasonable and logical plan, hopefully with safeguards, let them try it and see where it goes.

10-18-2008, 09:52 AM	#48
Pip Boy Sent to the cornfield Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: A right and proper Nerd Cave Posts: 2,460	Yes, its getting to the point that all McCain has to do is point and say "OH NOES! COMMIE-U-NISM" and everyone jumps up and freaks out. A level of governmental control that ensures the entire economy doesn't twist itself into some disfigured malfunctioning pile is not communism, its common sense. The entire point in the government is to, well, govern. Like Setheris said, no government can function solely on one political idealism. A certain balance of ideas must be maintained. After all, what is the criminal justice system but a set of governmental regulations that prevent people from doing things that are harmful to the communities around them? How is it any different for the government to do what is right and necessary to stabalize the economy?

10-18-2008, 10:18 PM	#50
Zilla Lakitu Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 2,378	Well, he is from Illinois... I do like the comparisons that can be drawn between Barack and Lincoln. Both were "inexperianced" senators from Illinois, and they're both tall. __________________ MENCHI Pink It's cowboy time, I'm so MENCHI right now. Metroid is a great man because his friends don't rape him.