Boxing

[bluestarultor]

Originally Posted by Magus

Actually, yes, the high point of any UFC viewing for me is when one guy has been knocked senseless to the ground and the other guy is beating the ever loving shit out of his head, so I think your point is proven but I don't care? Or something like that. I forget, I think it was Bluestarultor who said something about "let's throw some lions in there", which I'm assuming is a comparison between the UFC and the ancient gladiatorial games. What this overlooks is that these people are willingly entering UFC matches, unlike the slaves used for the spectacles of Rome, so while the visceral enjoyment may be as "mindless", it's not as immoral (or something like that).

My point was actually less about gladiatorial battles dealing with slavery and more that it was similarly bloody and with the way they whore stuff out for ratings, if they thought they could get away with it, they probably would. Which is why I tried to clarify it with my edit mentioning that it was a bad idea because the lions, unlike the fighters, wouldn't have a choice in the matter and ended with a final quip about animals having poor contracts.

I know the fighters know what they're getting into. I just tried to dress it up with implications of animal abuse as a tongue-in-cheek denial of expectation concerning the bloodbath. Not that I was expecting people to pick up on my humor (i.e. the things that weren't said), but I was kind of banking on someone asking about it and that just didn't happen.

[Tev]

Originally Posted by Bells

And sometimes they do special training aimed at their adversary... but most of the time, if i watch a fight between two guys i don't know and the audio is off, i'm not going to be able to tell what "Martial Art Skills" they are using beyond "Grabbing" and "Elbow/Knee hits" with the ocassional generic Hold.

Yeah, UFC does nothing for me. If I want to see some good mixed martial arts fighting, I'll watch some choreographed anime like Grappler Baki or Air Master. You know, shit that has that kind of flair that people just can't do right in real life.

[Krylo]

You could try watching illegal street fights.

The problem with UFC isn't that it's 'real life', it's that they have rules to keep the fighters as safe as possible while still allowing 'full contact' martial arts combat.

The result is that many of the blows that would make a striking combat style more useful than grappling are basically illegal. Which means that everyone goes for grapples because they're the best way to put someone into submission without, say, breaking their jaw (which they try to keep you from doing to each other in UFC bouts).

This is also probably why some people like boxing more than UFC. Sure the heavyweighters do a lot of hugging (which is stupid and boring I don't care if it's a strategy), but there's still more actual goddamn punching and moving around and not squirming on the ground more homoerotically than most gay porn than in UFC.

[Hanuman]

Originally Posted by Nique

I'm baffled

Originally Posted by Krylo

You could try watching illegal street fights.

The problem with UFC isn't that it's 'real life', it's that they have rules to keep the fighters as safe as possible while still allowing 'full contact' martial arts combat.

The result is that many of the blows that would make a striking combat style more useful than grappling are basically illegal. Which means that everyone goes for grapples because they're the best way to put someone into submission without, say, breaking their jaw (which they try to keep you from doing to each other in UFC bouts).

This is also probably why some people like boxing more than UFC. Sure the heavyweighters do a lot of hugging (which is stupid and boring I don't care if it's a strategy), but there's still more actual goddamn punching and moving around and not squirming on the ground more homoerotically than most gay porn than in UFC.

Please elaborate: How in real fighting are striking combat styles more effective than ground fighting?

[Krylo]

I didn't say striking is MORE effective than ground fighting in real combat. Ground fighting is still very effective in real combat, however in UFC you can't say... kick someone in the bojangles, or strike the side of someone's knee (25 pounds of force if I recall to tear the tendons and cripple the leg), or break someone's leg, etc. etc.

A full force kick from a properly trained individual can, for instance, shatter a blocking arm. Such a kick would be ruled illegal in the UFC.

So with the best power blows made unusable in the UFC because they don't want their fighters ending up in the hospital after every bout, that leaves ONLY ground fighting as being FULLY effective.

It'd be like if we made a fighting tournament where you were allowed to either use weapons or your bare hands, but then illegalized every weapon that wasn't comical huge foam gloves it wouldn't mean that bare handed fighting was more effective than weapons. Not a perfect comparison as that ground fighting is probably still somewhat more effective than striking in general, but the rules of the UFC widens the gap so much that there's no point going into it thinking you're going to use any kind of striking style.

Edit: I guess I did say more useful than, when I meant 'more useful than in certain situations' or just 'more useful compared to what it is in UFC currently'. I apologize for the confusion.

[Hanuman]

Technically they aren't SUPPOSED to be using these techniques in the UFC since their martial art is brand named and very specific in the rules, but I've seen them borrowing from internal martial arts as a way of cheating... I've seen Spider take down that Irish fellow with a single limp-looking straight jab to the chin and dodging all the rest in flow instead of just armoring up.

Yes, I agree with the right amount of strength an opponent who armors a joint incorrectly can be broken by a strike, but any martial artist worth his salt will dodge or dissolve a joint before it is broken, and in fact internal martial arts teach you to do the opposite, slight shifts in stance and muscle tension can effectively armor a blocking spot, shattering the person's foot or hand.
Protip-- Shifting your stance, blocking or evading a hit, these things are both FASTER than any hit that would have enough force to do the sort of damage you are talking about.

Striking martial arts are extremely effective for taking out an opponents weakpoints and as such they are a psychological punishing effect... (like a knight guarding a pawn), double-taking an opponent, or following up on a pre-disruption move and since the natural response for a strike is to armor, if you've already set them up and go to hit them you can manipulate their muscle tension to make them fall over or topple backwards, and then it's on the ground.

Weak points that are banned in all sport fighting would be balls, but balls are actually not that easy to exploit, the eyes are much more effective, ears are good too, same with hair.

The other side of the coin is that a proportionate number of ground fighting moves are disabled... they get them in multiple holds per match and half of those holds are designed to easily pick at a person as they are simply defenseless, and its MUCH easier to break someone's fingers and arms in a ground fight than their legs and arms in a upright position.

ALSO, these are people who have trained endlessly and specifically to escape jiu jitsu holds, you may think "wow, they are just slipping right out of those holds... jesus they are slow... they should run more so they can become blurs like DBZ".

You need to be absolutely ripped and toned in all the right ways to escape a hold from someone trained in jiu jitsu.. holding someone is WAY WAYYY more efficient than escaping while being held... and I can tell you first hand from sparring that you do not want to get on the ground with someone who has more training in that field than you.

[DarkDrgon]

Originally Posted by Lev

and I can tell you first hand from sparring that you do not want to get on the ground with someone who has more training in that field than you.

my ground game of choice is wrestling, and I agree with the above 100%

[Hanuman]

The other side of the grapple coin is that there are stances LIKE zenkutsu dachi from karate which accelerate the natural ability to balance very effectively, grounding someone who is in an anti-ground stance is very very tricky, so as much praise as I give ground fighting, it's not to be relied on until you have already taken it there.

[Krylo]

I'm not sure where any of that actually goes against what I said?

Grappling is more effective than striking by far when you put in rules designed against causing irrevocable harm. Don't see how that's a hard concept or how all those words actually counter it at all.

[krogothwolf]

I think they are ignoring how you mentioned a no rules situation and are now arguing styles which have rules. They are ground lovers so they feel they need to defend the style!