What In The Fuck Has Obama Done So Far?

[Jagos]

Am I the only one that sees immigration as not a problem? Just picking up on this but the reforms could make more problems than just letting people come in or what not. First, depending on region of the US, the immigration problem is different. Second, with everything that's going on, it takes ~ 5-10 years to actually immigrate to the US. I'd rather there be less laws on the book that only seem to exacerbate the problem, rather than banning people from coming to the US during the summer months to work hard then leave.

I would rather that political refugees had a chance to enjoy this place before being sent back to countries for crazy reasons. Furthermore, I'd rather it be that if someone makes a crazy trip, we do more than send them to internment camps similar to what's done in NY or California.

[Magus]

Originally Posted by Jagos

Am I the only one that sees immigration as not a problem?

No, I also don't see immigration as a problem. Who cares if they come here for a few months and leave? If you identify them you can tax them with payroll taxes and they'll be contributing to the economy for whatever time they are here, and they'll have a better life because they have more money than they would get in Mexico.

The idea that they are somehow a drain on the economy is a farce. They can't even get health insurance or welfare or anything if they don't have a social security number the way things are now. They'd put themselves at risk of being deported. And for the pay they receive they would probably not pay any income tax.

Immigration as a problem is just a myth. This country was built on immigration and immigrant labor.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Hey now, I was calling for completely free movement way before you Johnny-come-latelys showed up in this thread.
One oft the major things causing inequality and inefficiency in this world is arbitrary labour restrictios.
But then again countries are stupid too and we should get rid of them as well.

[Bob The Mercenary]

Originally Posted by Smarty McBarrelpants

But then again countries are stupid too and we should get rid of them as well.

Not to go on a tangent, but I've wanted to ask you about that for a while. I've always liked the idea of countries for the same reason I like the idea of states. If the policies of one cause it to fail, the entire thing doesn't fail, just that one region. I'd also imagine it would make it harder for an oppressive dictator to obtain power.

You keep bringing it up, I'm just interested in the details and pros/cons of a world like that.

[Amake]

Originally Posted by Smarty McBarrelpants

Hey now, I was calling for completely free movement way before you Johnny-come-latelys showed up in this thread.
One oft the major things causing inequality and inefficiency in this world is arbitrary labour restrictios.
But then again countries are stupid too and we should get rid of them as well.

What he said.

Illegal immigration is only a problem because migration is restricted over arbitrary, outmoded and in no way useful nation borders. I think one of the top five human rights is the right to live anywhere in the world you want. I think we all can agree that is how it should be; that no one here wants to complain to the United Nations that humans have too many rights and the laws of a given nation restricting those rights are more important, and need to be protected.

[Magus]

I think Smarty means that the idea of separate countries is outmoded and the entire world should just be one "world country" of socialist frivolity, with no actual government so as to please his anarchist sensibilities.

Basically something totally unworkable (unless Smarty would finally get around to outlining all the details of how it would work). But it would be nice.

[Geminex]

Wait.
Wait.
Hold one just one second.
That stuff if your sig.

...

Is it serious?

[Magus]

There is nothing more serious than the Libertarian religion, my friend.

FOR GOD AND CAPITALISM.

EDIT: I think it may be Rand's will that the Libertarian Church's website is down, for we cannot know Her mysterious ways.

Here is a transcript of our faith, however.

THE LIBERTARIAN CHURCH

OUR RELIGIOUS DOCTRINE:

Article 1: We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness — That to secure these Rights, Governments are instituted among Men, that whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these Ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its Foundation on such Principles, and organizing its Powers in such Form as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient Causes; and accordingly all Experience hath shewn, that Mankind are more disposed to suffer, while Evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the Forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long Train of Abuses and Usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object, evinces a Design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their Right, it is their Duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future Security.

Article 2: Resistance to tyrants is obedience to God.

THE ONE COMMANDMENT:

Thou shalt not initiate force against thy neighbor.

OUR PROPHECY:

We believe that Liberty and Justice shall prevail over Tyranny, possibly with ballots, or possibly with bullets, or possibly with a combination of both ballots and bullets. It is unlikely that Tyranny will surrender without a bloody fight involving substantial losses of its mercenaries.


The word Men in Article 1 of our religious doctrine is used in its most-inclusive sense, to mean the same thing as Humans. The word Liberty means, The right and freedom to do whatever does not violate the rights of anybody else. The Jeffersonian clause, deriving their just Powers from the consent of the Governed is omitted because it is inaccurate. The Government has the just power to forbid you to throw a baby into a river, even though you never consented to that law, and neither did the baby.
The word, force in the One Commandment is used in its most-inclusive sense, including but not limited to threats and theft by misrepresentation.

It is interesting to note that the Mormons consider the Declaration of Independence to be Divinely inspired, while not actual scripture.


The Libertarian Church consists of all persons adhering to the Libertarian faith as described herein.

There is neither formal membership nor formal leadership in the Libertarian Church, any more than there is in mathematics. No institution is in charge of mathematics, nor is any institution in charge of the Libertarian Church. Even so, many persons are mathematicians, and likewise, there can be many adherents to the Libertarian faith.

Individual adherents to the Libertarian faith are free to organize institutions of Libertarian instruction, entitling them in such manner as The Main Street Libertarian Temple, there being no central authority wherefrom to obtain official authorization. The instructor could be called a rabbi, which means, teacher.

[Jagos]

For some reason, Magus has really been on a Libertarian bent. I don't think it's sarcasm anymore...

-E- Damn ninja!

[Magus]

I would attempt to waylay your fears about my fealty to my new-found faith, but I will show you my faith through my works. And the greatest work of any Libertarian is to quote things.

There's no way to rule innocent men. The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren't enough criminals, one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible to live without breaking laws. – Ayn Rand