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Unread 06-16-2009, 06:41 PM   #51
Mirai Gen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GodHand Prime View Post
EDIT: I can see where you'd get that idea, as we're constantly bombarded by sensational stories about the massive impact of human CO2 emissions, but it just ain't so.
I have a hard time believing that the oil companies who are telling you that we're not actually killing our planet are fundamentally less corrupted and less likely to spread propaganda than scientists.
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Unread 06-16-2009, 06:52 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by Azisien View Post
So what?

I have a relevant degree. All my professors probably had bigger relevant degrees than you.
I was responding to a claim that I had no idea what I was talking about. I have degrees. Fifthfiend has, apparently, the ability to ridicule people on the Internet. One is a relevant commodity. The other is not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Azisien
For all your high education, you sure do not post citations or actual statistics.
I'm not on the same computer I had when I was studying. Even if I had the relevant subscriptions still, I don't have the URLs handy. Besides, I'm not writing a research paper. I'm discussing the topic on the Internet with a crowd biased enough to ignore any link I presented and call it lies. This ain't my first rodeo. Why should I go to more effort than anyone else is for the joy of being ignored?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Azisien
Human CO2 output is inconsequential? I think during your degree you should have studied equilibrium. Yes, the ocean's output is larger than human output (by 10-15 fold or so). However, the ocean is also packed with cyanobacteria constantly pumping out oxygen to roughly equilibrate.

Although comparable to the entire globe human output is still small, not only is it continually growing (and just imagine if every country in the world was industrialized like America is as per Godhand's fantasy world of haze and death smog), but we do not have any oxygen equilibrating process to match our output. While small, we tip the scale, and we tip it fast.

That and we're slaughtering the ocean's cyanobacteria, chopping down our rainforests, and just generally killing things, which destroys further oxygen production. I guess on the plus side if we eat ALL the fish, they won't be doing pesky things like breathing anymore.
This is a bit misleading. Oxygen in no way balances out CO2. There is no dichotomy there. The questions are, whether or not CO2 is a driver in climate change (it has never been shown to be so), whether mankind's emissions of CO2 are causing significant harm (in light of the previous answer, clearly not), and whether actions to counteract the release of CO2 have negative consequences (very much so).

Also, you seem to have missed the point where I'm all for energy efficiency and reducing legitimate pollutants.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Azisien
EDIT: And the point is that the change is also occurring fast. While I'm not convinced humanity would be utterly destroyed, I don't think any of us can really know how dark the tunnel gets. The planet and its inhabitants requires evolutionary time scales to adapt to planetary-scale changes.
As an illustration of just how fast the change is happening, show me shots of the polar ice caps every year, from, say, 2005 onward. Go on. The University of Illinois has them available on their site.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Azisien
Also, volcanoes? Yeah I'll need to see proof of that. Eruptions have been monitored for decades with no noticeable increase in CO2, they'd be inconsequential to human output. The biggest, most fantastic volcanoes ever in the history of the world can affect climate, sure, but through processes other than just CO2.
You mean, climate change involves many factors, not just CO2? Holy crap! Do you realize what this means? It's almost like there's some sort of natural process going on!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aerozord
you seem to be confusing air born CO2 with dissolved CO2. Algea can pump out all the CO2 it wants and it wont affect climate.
Nope. I mean released into the atmosphere. The ocean releases CO2 into the atmosphere in absurd quantities, when it's in emission cycle. Like now.

EDIT:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirai Gen
I have a hard time believing that the oil companies who are telling you that we're not actually killing our planet are fundamentally less corrupted and less likely to spread propaganda than scientists.
See, this is what I'm talking about with the subversion of science. Anyone who is protesting the absurdly weak science put forth by the alarmists is automatically a tool of the Great Satan. The government hires scientists to write a report about man-made global warming, the majority of the scientists submit evidence that there's no such things, the government edits their reports to say the exact opposite, said scientists protest their names being associated with this fiction, the government tells them to go screw themselves... and then Global Warming is the Pure Truth, and disagreeing with it is Vile Evil Lies Perpetuated For Rule of a Dead World.

Last edited by GodHand Prime; 06-16-2009 at 06:58 PM.
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Unread 06-16-2009, 06:59 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by GodHand Prime View Post
a crowd biased enough to ignore any link I presented
I guess we'd know whether that's true if you'd ever bothered presenting any.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GodHand Prime View Post
I have degrees.
It's too bad none of them were from a program good enough to teach you what fallacies are.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GodHand Prime View Post
See, this is what I'm talking about with the subversion of science. Anyone who is protesting the absurdly weak science put forth by the alarmists is automatically a tool of the Great Satan. The government hires scientists to write a report about man-made global warming, the majority of the scientists submit evidence that there's no such things, the government edits their reports to say the exact opposite, said scientists protest their names being associated with this fiction, the government tells them to go screw themselves... and then Global Warming is the Pure Truth, and disagreeing with it is Vile Evil Lies Perpetuated For Rule of a Dead World.
Oh wow you are seriously perfect.

You... you complete me.
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Unread 06-16-2009, 07:03 PM   #54
GodHand Prime
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Originally Posted by Fifthfiend View Post
I guess we'd know whether that's true if you'd ever bothered presenting any.
Because there's so very many links being provided in this discussion. I'm the only one not providing evidence.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Fifthfiend
It's too bad none of them were from a program good enough to teach you what fallacies are.
I used my education to refute the argument that I was ignorant, and no other. No fallacy applies. Your move, troll.
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Unread 06-16-2009, 07:06 PM   #55
Mirai Gen
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Anyone who is protesting the absurdly weak science put forth by the alarmists is automatically a tool of the Great Satan.
I don't think you quite understand just how crazy it sounds to call the science backing global warming 'absurdly weak,' especially with absolutely no sources to back them up.
Quote:
Because there's so very many links being provided in this discussion. I'm the only one not providing evidence.
So two wrongs make a right? I mean in a debate if you're trying to win you can't just keep saying 'you go first.'
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Unread 06-16-2009, 07:08 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by Mirai Gen View Post
I don't think you quite understand just how crazy it sounds to call the science backing global warming 'absurdly weak,' especially with absolutely no sources to back them up.

So two wrongs make a right? I mean in a debate if you're trying to win you can't just keep saying 'you go first.'
I don't think you realize how that's the only thing keeping us even. You're not exactly a fountain of links yourself.

I wrote my research papers years ago. Now I'm discussing politics with people on an obscure Internet forum. Forgive me if I'm not prepared to do the same amount of work now as then.

Last edited by GodHand Prime; 06-16-2009 at 07:11 PM.
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Unread 06-16-2009, 07:09 PM   #57
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I like the part where investing in processes and technologies that we ought to invest in anyway is a Bad Idea that will lead to Ultimate Financial Ruin because, somehow, doing this will never create jobs and whole new industries.
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Unread 06-16-2009, 07:10 PM   #58
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Okay, to be a bit more thorough this time;

Quote:
In cases of the very real possibility of the death of humankind
Stop right here. There's a real possibility in the sense that it is physically possible that global warming could kill humankind. That doesn't mean it's a likely scenario. Even in the worst worst case "there's a C'tan in our sun and the ozone was protecting us from him" scenarios, it's pretty likely that we'd pull through. Taking the possibility that we are causing global warming and going from that to "the very real possibility" that it will kill us all is already one 'if' too many. Not to mention you have to ramp up the scale of global warming just to get to that point.

Assuming that global warming is being caused by us and is going to get worse, the worst case scenarios that are actually likely and not just rampant paranoia are certainly not pleasant, but they aren't apocalyptic either.

So yeah, I don't think that just because the sky might be falling if this and that are also true, that we should create paranoia on a scale where we're able to justify doing whatever we want even when it impacts peoples' lives on a personal scale. In fact, I'm against acting out of paranoia in general. People tend to do stupid shit that accomplishes absolutely nothing when they're paranoid. Specifically avoiding other possibilities out of paranoia (like labelling people who want to discuss the possibility that you're wrong as morally repugnant) breeds ignorance. Ignorance tends to solve very little save overpopulation.

Now add to the stupid policies getting pushed through politicians who are elected by sole virtue of their support for "green" policies. I don't know what it's like in the US, but I've certainly seen it happening here

If your plan involved thinking about global warming rationally and paying attention to the studies and views that you don't like, I would have less of a problem with your stance. Your plan is pretty much specifically that paranoia should be promoted and that doing anything to diffuse this paranoia is wrong in the moral sense. That's not a good plan.

Also if you believe global warming to be a big deal, then you should be very concerned with whether or not humans are causing it, because if we aren't, then we're busy solving a bunch of problems that won't actually help us if the worst case scenario occurs. This planet has had far worse things than global warming happen to it, and they will likely happen again. The sky will probably always be falling just over the horizon.

Quote:
It is morally repugnant to argue that global warming is a hoax
Going back to this for a moment, lets not lump all the people who don't agree with your view into one group. There's a good chunk of people who think it's happening, and just believe that we aren't the cause. They have pretty good reasoning too, and they're worth listening to if you think global warming is going to lead to the extinction of the human species. It's a good thing to consider, because we have a pretty long history of being very ego-centric and crafting apocalypse stories that centre on us.

Not that that's even my view. I don't dare mention my views here because lord knows it would make me a bad person.
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Unread 06-16-2009, 07:13 PM   #59
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you should be very concerned with whether or not humans are causing it, because if we aren't, then we're busy solving a bunch of problems that won't actually help us
The alternative is to faff around uselessly and hope everything works out okay.

Call me crazy, but that's a terrible plan.
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Unread 06-16-2009, 07:13 PM   #60
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I like the part where investing in processes and technologies that we ought to invest in anyway is a Bad Idea that will lead to Ultimate Financial Ruin because, somehow, doing this will never create jobs and whole new industries.
Oh, it already has. Global warming activism is Big Business. It's just that throwing money at a problem that isn't there isn't really the best use of it. Especially when it is in our best interest to spend as little as possible.

EDIT:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurosen
The alternative is to faff around uselessly and hope everything works out okay.

Call me crazy, but that's a terrible plan.
It's pretty sound when the people involved already know the outcome. They just pretend, because there's tons of money being thrown around, and big fancy conferences in cities where prostitution is legal. (Copenhagen's prostitution revenues went through the roof during the last big activism summit, BTW. Just thought you should know where all those tax dollars are going. FOREIGN WHORES.)

Last edited by GodHand Prime; 06-16-2009 at 07:16 PM.
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