OH GOD BIOWARE WHAT THE FUCK HAVE YOU DONE

[Kerensky287]

Originally Posted by Solid Snake

Micheal Beattie has confirmed that he wasn't asked back.

Okay, I'll take that back. I'm confused, yes, but at this point I still trust that Bioware has/had a good reason for it.

Originally Posted by Solid Snake

She's a romanceable character. I'm sure this has been in the works for a while.

Not necessarily. It could be effectively a romance sidequest; meet this person, say the right things, get a fancy cutscene, and find yourself unable to pursue the same track with any other character. It would still require a lot of time and effort, but if it's as rushed as you seem to think it is, then... well, it's rushed.

And if it's not rushed, then it might not be so bad.

Originally Posted by Solid Snake

Oh man aren't you a thrilling example of cutting wit

I wasn't being witty. That was my honest train of thought.

Originally Posted by Solid Snake

Thane Krios was awesome, I don't know what you're talkin' 'bout.

Never said he WASN'T awesome, but I was more referring to him pandering to the female population.

He's a gravelly-voiced assassin. A strong, silent type. He wears a sleek, fancy suit, and focuses on the mission. Kind of a rough exterior. But when you get closer to him, it turns out that he's very deep and sensitive. He has explicit, audible flashbacks that go into intimate detail about his emotions. He's dying, and he's trying to make his last days count. But at the same time, he's a former family man, who lost everything due to things that were outside of his control but truly, genuinely cares about trying to make things right again.

And when you kiss him you see rainbows.

Originally Posted by Solid Snake

Yup!
Someone disagrees with you about an upcoming game you like and has articulated reasons he dislikes the thing you are liking
Someone call the police

You have articulated reasons, but the vast majority of them seem to be complaints about the Diana Allers character. At their base, they seem to be mostly defensive complaints; you feel offended that Bioware judges you, a Mass Effect fan, to be a desperate nerd who needs what amounts to a virtual sex doll for instant gratification.

That complaint is totally fine and 100% valid. What isn't valid is the fact that you're going "Shit, the game is ruined" because one voice actor might not be returning and one romance option happens to be fanservice.

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by Aerozord

wait, it just occurred to me, hope I'm not the only one.

but we are talking about how they handle gameplay and story elements, in a game that doesn't even exist yet. A studio can drop the ball on a great idea, or find a way to make a horrible one work. Not to mention this thing doesn't even have a release date yet. They can still make any number of changes

That sure is a possibility. I'm not holding my breath though.

[Azisien]

Is this a complaint thread about using motion capture so the game characters look like their motion capture counterparts?

because that is kind of the point.

I can't wait for this game.

[Karrrrrrrrrrrresche]

Originally Posted by Kerensky287

That complaint is totally fine and 100% valid. What isn't valid is the fact that you're going "Shit, the game is ruined" because one voice actor might not be returning and one romance option happens to be fanservice.

Did you miss the parts of the post that were above where he complained about Mordin?
The parts where they're rushing the release because of an arbitrarily applied 2012 date? The fundamental undermining of Mass Effects genre by changing it from an RPG that had good shooting elements l into another shooter? Or the script, the very story, the best fucking thing about damn near any Bioware game being atrocious?

The most memorable thing I can recall about the buildup for ME3 was when I saw a leaked set of plot points. And after getting some chuckles and thinking "Maybe that's not true" I saw the last one and realized it was just all a giant joke. Because that last one said that a giant worm would take down a fucking Reaper which was just so stupid I couldn't take it seriously at alllll.
Then it fucking happened.

[Solid Snake]

Originally Posted by Kerensky287

Okay, I'll take that back. I'm confused, yes, but at this point I still trust that Bioware has/had a good reason for it.

You see, the main difference between our respective positions at this juncture is that you're simply giving Bioware the benefit of the doubt based on your love of ME1 and ME2 (which I totally concede were awesome games and 100% worth every ounce of praise they earned), while I can't give Bioware the benefit of the doubt regarding Chobot's character because all this evidence specific to ME3 suggests very, very dark clouds are hanging over this franchise.

Like I think I'd still be a bit pissed about the Chobot love interest thing if all the other signs regarding ME3 were solid? But I look at Mordin's VA confirming he's not coming back, I look at the leaked script that Bioware essentially conceded was at least an early copy of their thoughts (specific scenes will be revised, but I doubt the overarching plot will), I look at Bioware's emphasis on shooter mechanics and lack of emphasis on storyline in every snippet they've shown to the press about this game, and Chobot just was the final insult added to the injury that caused the explosion.

I think you're fundamentally misread my initial post if you believe that Chobot's the only thing about ME3 that upsets me, and upsets a lot of other fans on the internet who are ticked off about ME3 these days.

Not necessarily. It could be effectively a romance sidequest; meet this person, say the right things, get a fancy cutscene, and find yourself unable to pursue the same track with any other character. It would still require a lot of time and effort, but if it's as rushed as you seem to think it is, then... well, it's rushed.

And if it's not rushed, then it might not be so bad.

Allow me to clarify.
I think that ME3, the game, as a whole, has been rushed.
I think that the Chobot subplot / her romance scenes / whatever she's adding to the story as a romanceable character, however, has been thoroughly planned (and will constitute at least a solid-length sidequest and/or merit a mandatory introduction after which you can decide how Shepard feels about her.)
Those positions are not contradictory. I'm basically saying that ME3 was rushed, and in addition to being rushed, ME3's developers have spent far too much time emphasizing the wrong things (Chobot! New Jersey Shore lookalike guy voiced by Freddie Prinze Jr.!) and not emphasizing the right things (characters we already care about!)

Never said he WASN'T awesome, but I was more referring to him pandering to the female population.

I really don't think that Thane Krios "panders to the female population" in quite the same way as Chobot is intended to "pander to the nerdy male population."

Like, one's a fully realized character who resembles no popular actor on this planet and who just happens to possess admirable traits that women (and gay men) would likely find attractive.
...The other is a sex symbol and masturbatory aid fantasy who precisely resembles the actress who voices her in a way that's just kind of downright creepy, and anyone who actually does seduce her is essentially doing so because they want to seduce Jessica Chobot, not Diana Allers.

At their base, they seem to be mostly defensive complaints; you feel offended that Bioware judges you, a Mass Effect fan, to be a desperate nerd who needs what amounts to a virtual sex doll for instant gratification.

Yes.
That is precisely my problem with this!
Why does Bioware assume that it needs to introduce a virtual sex doll for nerds into the Mass Effect universe?
The ME universe shouldn't be about seducing Jessica Chobot! We should be destroying Reapers, not macking it with virtual lookalikes of celebrities who are only famous because they're pandering to immature fantasies.

Like, you see, if it was a popular actress who was actually great at her craft and who happened to also be sexually attractive, even then, I'd be marginally less offended. Still offended at the notion that she needed to be an exact carbon-copy lookalike of said actress, but at least you could make the point that the actress was credible in the industry and would actually voice the character well and wasn't just there as jerk-off fodder.

...Chobot isn't even an established actress. She's not going to add gravitas to the role. She's in this game for one reason. There's only one justification to have her. And it's a fucking awful justification.

[Kerensky287]

Originally Posted by "Half Assed" Karesh

Did you miss the parts of the post that were above where he complained about Mordin?

No, I included that in the exact same section you quoted.

The rest, however:

Originally Posted by "Half Assed" Karesh

The parts where they're rushing the release because of an arbitrarily applied 2012 date? The fundamental undermining of Mass Effects genre by changing it from an RPG that had good shooting elements l into another shooter? Or the script, the very story, the best fucking thing about damn near any Bioware game being atrocious?

The vast majority of games nowadays have "arbitrarily applied" release dates, and the vast majority of games nowadays do involve some measure of crunch time to reach said release dates. Mass Effect 3 is no exception.

The changes between Mass Effect 2 and 3 actually seem very minor compared to those between 1 and 2. If any "fundamental undermining" happened, it was between the first two, when it turned from an RPG with shooter elements to a shooter with RPG elements. All they've done this time around is made the combat faster. You can still pause and freeze to plan, and you still level up and gain experience.

And I still don't have ANY reason to believe that the story is as bad as you're making it out to be. Execution. Is. Everything.

Originally Posted by "Half Assed" Karesh

The most memorable thing I can recall about the buildup for ME3 was when I saw a leaked set of plot points. And after getting some chuckles and thinking "Maybe that's not true" I saw the last one and realized it was just all a giant joke. Because that last one said that a giant worm would take down a fucking Reaper which was just so stupid I couldn't take it seriously at alllll.
Then it fucking happened.

Said "giant worm" happens to be a Thresher Maw. This thing could kill the Mako in ME1 by spitting at it. In the ME3 trailer, it rushes the Reaper and smashes into it full-force. Yes, Reapers have advanced technology, but when you throw a carnivorous sandworm the size of an aircraft carrier at it, something's gotta give.

Execution. Is. Everything.

When the game comes out, complain all you want. Until then, you have exactly as much reason to say the story will suck as I do to say it'll be fine. The rest of the complaints all boil down to ONE voice actor who won't be returning (and we don't know WHY, mind you), and ONE romanceable character that Snake feels offended by.

EDIT: This is all in response to Snake's post.

Originally Posted by Solid Snake

You see, the main difference between our respective positions at this juncture is that you're simply giving Bioware the benefit of the doubt based on your love of ME1 and ME2 (which I totally concede were awesome games and 100% worth every ounce of praise they earned), while I can't give Bioware the benefit of the doubt regarding Chobot's character because all this evidence specific to ME3 suggests very, very dark clouds are hanging over this franchise.

Point. I am giving them the benefit of the doubt based on past experience. But I'm merely trying to communicate that the dark clouds you're seeing don't necessarily ruin the entire piece.

Originally Posted by Solid Snake

Like I think I'd still be a bit pissed about the Chobot love interest thing if all the other signs regarding ME3 were solid? But I look at Mordin's VA confirming he's not coming back, I look at the leaked script that Bioware essentially conceded was at least an early copy of their thoughts (specific scenes will be revised, but I doubt the overarching plot will), I look at Bioware's emphasis on shooter mechanics and lack of emphasis on storyline in every snippet they've shown to the press about this game, and Chobot just was the final insult added to the injury that caused the explosion.

I haven't seen this leaked script, and that's also a place where our opinions might differ. What I've said several times is that the script doesn't necessarily reflect how it will play out, either. Sections you dislike may not be sections of major focus. Themes you dislike may be implimented in ways you didn't predict.

And as I've also said, they've emphasized shooter mechanics in press snippets because of how much easier it is to make a trailer about, say, shooting lots of dudes, than about, say, how attached you'll get to Garrus over the course of 20 hours. Meanwhile, a lot of the interviews I've seen actually seem to focus primarily on the story, characters, and RPG elements that you claim have been neglected, so I'm not seeing your side. (The interview is here, I'd link it in text but for some reason it's destroying my quote bubbles: http://www.gameinformer.com/b/featur...terviewae.aspx )

Originally Posted by Solid Snake

Allow me to clarify.
I think that ME3, the game, as a whole, has been rushed.
I think that the Chobot subplot / her romance scenes / whatever she's adding to the story as a romanceable character, however, has been thoroughly planned (and will constitute at least a solid-length sidequest and/or merit a mandatory introduction after which you can decide how Shepard feels about her.)
Those positions are not contradictory. I'm basically saying that ME3 was rushed, and in addition to being rushed, ME3's developers have spent far too much time emphasizing the wrong things (Chobot! New Jersey Shore lookalike guy voiced by Freddie Prinze Jr.!) and not emphasizing the right things (characters we already care about!)

It's entirely possible that you're right, but it's equally possible that ME3's developers have spent plenty of time emphasizing characters we care about, and simply haven't been showing them off in trailers. The point of a trailer is to get people excited about a new game. The best way to do that is to show off what makes the new game *new*, introducing the added features to people who would otherwise be unaware. It makes much more logical sense to say "Hey, guys! James Vega!" than to say "Hey, guys! Liara T'Soni! Again!" regardless of each character's relative importance in ME3.

Originally Posted by Solid Snake

I really don't think that Thane Krios "panders to the female population" in quite the same way as Chobot is intended to "pander to the nerdy male population."

Like, one's a fully realized character who resembles no popular actor on this planet and who just happens to possess admirable traits that women (and gay men) would likely find attractive.
...The other is a sex symbol and masturbatory aid fantasy who precisely resembles the actress who voices her in a way that's just kind of downright creepy, and anyone who actually does seduce her is essentially doing so because they want to seduce Jessica Chobot, not Diana Allers.

What makes you think that Diana Allers will be any less fully-realized than Thane Krios?

If they're devoting that kind of time and effort to including her, I think that they'd flesh her out as much as any other love-interest. Yes, she's still Jessica Chobot, but the same thing happened with Miranda. They took a real-life person, scanned her face, and put her into the game. They have exactly as many options for making you like her. Whether they pull it off successfully or not is something that remains to be seen.

Originally Posted by Solid Snake

Yes.
That is precisely my problem with this!
Why does Bioware assume that it needs to introduce a virtual sex doll for nerds into the Mass Effect universe?
The ME universe shouldn't be about seducing Jessica Chobot! We should be destroying Reapers, not macking it with virtual lookalikes of celebrities who are only famous because they're pandering to immature fantasies.

You'll still be destroying Reapers. Macking with virtual lookalikes of celebrities is a fairly minor part of the game. I don't see why it has to be such a big deal.

Originally Posted by Solid Snake

Like, you see, if it was a popular actress who was actually great at her craft and who happened to also be sexually actress, even then, I'd be marginally less offended. Still offended at the notion that she needed to be an exact carbon-copy lookalike of said actress, but at least you could make the point that the actress was credible in the industry and would actually voice the character well and wasn't just there as jerk-off fodder.

...Chobot isn't even an established actress. She's not going to add gravitas to the role. She's in this game for one reason. There's only one justification to have her. And it's a fucking awful justification.

Point. But she's still an optional, minor part of a game that might (probably will) otherwise be very, very good.

[Azisien]

Whaaaaaaa my AAA games aren't AAA enough whaaaaa I'm totally buying it anywaaaaay

[stefan]

Originally Posted by "Half Assed" Karesh

Or the script, the very story, the best fucking thing about damn near any Bioware game being atrocious?

to be fair, Bioware's quality of writing has been going to shit for years at a pretty steady pace. their comical attempts at writing "morality choices" in KOTOR was the point where everything started falling apart, and its only been getting worse from there.

Originally Posted by Azisien

Whaaaaaaa my AAA games aren't AAA enough whaaaaa I'm totally buying it anywaaaaay

except that, you know, in the current game economy, an entirely unignorable percentage of gamers are willing to just pirate games if they don't feel confident enough in the finished product to deem it worth $60. shit's expensive, and the industry has no real stick to go with the carrot.

and really, is it so much to expect that if a studio pours millions of dollars into developing a product, then they'll prioritize delivering a good product rather than wasting development time and funds plotting, scripting, and animating a poorly conceived, masturbatory sidequest involving sexing up some vaguely famous piece of network eyecandy in hopes of attracting a demographic that was probably going to buy your product anyway?

because thats what this is, really. a poorly thought out attempt at pandering that will attract noone and insult people you already had buying your product.

[Karrrrrrrrrrrresche]

Originally Posted by Kerensky287

Said "giant worm" happens to be a Thresher Maw. This thing could kill the Mako in ME1 by spitting at it. In the ME3 trailer, it rushes the Reaper and smashes into it full-force. Yes, Reapers have advanced technology, but when you throw a carnivorous sandworm the size of an aircraft carrier at it, something's gotta give.

Nonono. You're not justifying this. Even if a creature like the Thresher Maw breaking the kinetic barriers of a Reaper made sense, the basic concept of the scene is silly. From a narrative perspective Reapers have represented "If this shows up we are dead" enemy. A single Reaper destroyed damn near every ship defending the Citadel, and the whole first games plot was based around describing just how fucked the Galaxy is if the Reapers actually get to Citadel space.

If something has to give, it should have been the Thresher Maw.
Even though in the first place the reaper just shouldn't be there for the Thresher Maw to fight.

[Solid Snake]

Lemme just ask you this, Kerensky, because I think this is what it really boils down to.

...You really like Mass Effect, right? As a series? I imagine you're a huge ME1 and ME2 fan like I am.
So let me just pose this question to you. If Bioware could only do one thing with its time and money when developing ME3, what would you rather see them do: Actually include a proper sendoff for the beloved character of Mordin Solus, or waste precious time, effort and resources to include Jessica Chobot's likeness as a love interest?

...This should not be a difficult question. It shouldn't have been difficult for Bioware, either.