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Unread 07-02-2011, 09:22 PM   #31
Magic_Marker
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Originally Posted by Jagos View Post
Let's just vote Mitt Romney and be done with it.
Or we could not vote for the Grand Old Party that put us into this mess.
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Unread 07-02-2011, 09:26 PM   #32
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I ask a valid question.
Sorry, but I hardly think...

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Why does everyone think he's so screwed up?
...is a valid question. I don't doubt for even a single moment that you know why our opinion of him is decidedly in the negative. Is he less terrible than other conservative politicians? The post immediately before yours already conceded that point. When you ask a question you know the answer to, it puts your motivation for asking the question under suspicion, and thus people are less likely to take the question seriously.

But hey, maybe I'm wrong and you really were asking a forum full of people who have explained several times their problems with Objectivism, Ron Paul, and similar philosophies why they didn't want to vote for Ron Paul, who is an Objectivist. What do I know?
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Unread 07-02-2011, 09:31 PM   #33
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I'm the biggest proponent of voting reform you can have.

It's a non issue that Obama is going to be elected again. I've found exactly two candidates that aren't politicians, but at the very least statesmen of character. That would be Ron Paul and Greg Johnson who I would support in some way shape or form.

Obama has persecuted more whistleblowers than any other President combined.
He's led a secret war against American freedoms (Wikileaks embarrassed the government and his FOIA act)
He's advocated a burgeoning healthcare system that has increased insurance policies along with tort reforms that seem to hurt people since they can't sue in open court. He spoke about TSA and allows the groping.

He has yet to get out of Afghanistan even though OBL is dead.
We're at war with Libya.
We're still spending $680 bn on military expenditures.

Do I need to go on? If there were a Democratic/Third Party candidate, I'd vote for them. Obama disappoints me greatly because he's continued to further Bush Sr/Jr's agenda without fail.

We don't need a two party candidate, we need an entire new system. Until then, the ones that closely resemble the ways I would vote will suffice.

Non, I did not know he was an Objectivist.
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Unread 07-02-2011, 10:02 PM   #34
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Regarding your earlier post, the Federal Reserve is only at fault for this country's financial woes because it consistently failed to do its job of regulating the economy and financial corporations and banks. We need more regulation, not less. During the Bush years there was less regulation than there has been in decades, the rise of the derivative, high-interest home loans, and other toxic assets, and bam! Economic collapse.

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Originally Posted by Jagos View Post
I'm the biggest proponent of voting reform you can have.

It's a non issue that Obama is going to be elected again. I've found exactly two candidates that aren't politicians, but at the very least statesmen of character. That would be Ron Paul and Greg Johnson who I would support in some way shape or form.

Obama has persecuted more whistleblowers than any other President combined.
He's led a secret war against American freedoms (Wikileaks embarrassed the government and his FOIA act)
He's advocated a burgeoning healthcare system that has increased insurance policies along with tort reforms that seem to hurt people since they can't sue in open court. He spoke about TSA and allows the groping.

He has yet to get out of Afghanistan even though OBL is dead.
We're at war with Libya.
We're still spending $680 bn on military expenditures.

Do I need to go on? If there were a Democratic/Third Party candidate, I'd vote for them. Obama disappoints me greatly because he's continued to further Bush Sr/Jr's agenda without fail.

We don't need a two party candidate, we need an entire new system. Until then, the ones that closely resemble the ways I would vote will suffice.

Non, I did not know he was an Objectivist.
Libertarians are usually Objectivists by default, though I thought you should have kind of been clued in by the fact that is son's name is Rand Paul. Even if it is officially Randall (haven't looked it up), he apparently goes out of his way to not be called Randy, but Rand, and I'm at least fairly certain as to why that is. But I mean, maybe he isn't an Objectivist, it just so happens he sounds exactly like Objectivists because Objectivists are Libertarians, too.

True, the son is not the father but where do they differ on policies? I think you said before that they differ on something, but what are they?

As for your criticisms of Obama they are valid (to an extremely moderate extent, since you compare him to Bush and buddy, ain't nobody been as bad as Bush except probably Calvin Coolidge, who at least didn't commit war crimes, not even Bush, Sr. is as bad as Bush, Jr.) but I have a hard time believing Ron Paul would be able to accomplish anything more. Plus he'd avoid pushing for getting rid of discrimination like Obama has, since he's in favor of allowing private entities to discriminate (under the false impression they won't because it isn't as good for them economically, when in fact it is more than good for their profits to have an underclass of minorities who are forced to work for less than whites, just like it was good for businesses from the Civil War to the Civil Rights era to have an underclass of minorities who are forced to work for less than whites).
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Unread 07-02-2011, 10:33 PM   #35
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maybe we should accept that government as we know it in many ways no longer exists. Our society is closer to fascism then anything.

As I said this cannot be changed without armed conflict. Even if we get a candidate into office that isn't tied to corporate interests congress still is, said president would soon realize he'd have to make concessions to get anything done. Honestly this is my theory on alot of issues Obama backed down on, he was pressured to do so. This is also assuming you dont by into the theory that a candidate that doesn't play ball get forced out of office or killed.

Now personally I'm a pacifist so I of course look for an alternative to problem solving through fighting. I'd recognize that as we are now we cant do anything. Our votes dont matter cause those we elect wont serve our interests. Instead I'd work on setting up infrastructures to do what the upperclass have done. Create organizations and corporations that can challenge those that exist or join ones that already do.

Not saying it will work, but with globalization as it is only a matter of time before government based on geographic locations cease to exist. Those in the best place to take advantage of this are global companies and other organizations. Instead of worrying about saving a dying model of government work on building an alternative before its collapse.

Of course if you are cynical, it already has
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Unread 07-02-2011, 10:40 PM   #36
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Are you kidding? Look at lulzsec Anon Wikileaks Video Games, Mega Corporations, and inequality of access to resources such as education and health care. Out of all the people who tried to predict the future, turns out Cyberpunk was right.
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Unread 07-03-2011, 12:11 AM   #37
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Are you kidding? Look at lulzsec Anon Wikileaks Video Games, Mega Corporations, and inequality of access to resources such as education and health care. Out of all the people who tried to predict the future, turns out Cyberpunk was right.
corporations are starting to push the theoretical level of hyper corporations, ones that have such economic power they are for practical purposes are governmental bodies.

See while lulzsec and anon are examples of what I am talking about I would like to expand my options beyond corporate overlords and cyberterrorists
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Unread 07-03-2011, 11:45 AM   #38
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Regarding your earlier post, the Federal Reserve is only at fault for this country's financial woes because it consistently failed to do its job of regulating the economy and financial corporations and banks. We need more regulation, not less. During the Bush years there was less regulation than there has been in decades, the rise of the derivative, high-interest home loans, and other toxic assets, and bam! Economic collapse.
The Federal Reserve was pretty implicit in the fake demand that F&F cooked the books for. I'm trying not to make any more long posts about it, simply because reading all of the information about how Greenspan put his finger up in the air and decided that inflation was too high or low is frustrating.



Quote:
Libertarians are usually Objectivists by default, though I thought you should have kind of been clued in by the fact that is son's name is Rand Paul. Even if it is officially Randall (haven't looked it up), he apparently goes out of his way to not be called Randy, but Rand, and I'm at least fairly certain as to why that is. But I mean, maybe he isn't an Objectivist, it just so happens he sounds exactly like Objectivists because Objectivists are Libertarians, too.
The entire problem with this is how it seems to segregate society. It's like saying all people born in the US are part of the Red or Blue states, without any regard to any other party. It's like saying the Tea Party isn't fundamentally different from Republican. From what I saw, I really didn't care about his religious view (even if that skews the ideals), merely looked into his smaller government agenda which a LOT of Americans are becoming enamored with. There may be a fundamental change from the two party system, simply because a LOT of people are tired of the political games inherent.

Quote:
True, the son is not the father but where do they differ on policies? I think you said before that they differ on something, but what are they?
Having read on both of them, they agree on almost everything. Not a fan of their "pro-life" choice, but almost everything else that they've stated is pretty reasonable. No, I'm not an Objectivist.

Quote:
As for your criticisms of Obama they are valid (to an extremely moderate extent, since you compare him to Bush and buddy, ain't nobody been as bad as Bush except probably Calvin Coolidge, who at least didn't commit war crimes, not even Bush, Sr. is as bad as Bush, Jr.) but I have a hard time believing Ron Paul would be able to accomplish anything more. Plus he'd avoid pushing for getting rid of discrimination like Obama has, since he's in favor of allowing private entities to discriminate (under the false impression they won't because it isn't as good for them economically, when in fact it is more than good for their profits to have an underclass of minorities who are forced to work for less than whites, just like it was good for businesses from the Civil War to the Civil Rights era to have an underclass of minorities who are forced to work for less than whites).
You do realize that the government enforcing diversity or pushing away from it makes it ten times worse? Jim Crow was the government imposing racially segregated schoolhouses. I don't think Obama is getting rid of that discrimination, but exposing it more. Meanwhile Paul would allow people their freedom of choice. This already occurs in the background, but it's not the federal government picking sides, so to speak. I'd probably say that affirmative action causes more problems than it necessarily fixes. You have to have one person of a minority in your business or else you're taxed. This isn't to say that someone else qualified, just that you were discriminated against based on your color. This is BS, and there's other factors now in play that discourage this behavior. But if a business wants to run on an "all whites only" campaign in this global market, give them that option, let them do so, so long as they get to suffer the consequences of that action.
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Unread 07-03-2011, 12:37 PM   #39
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There won't be any consequences for businesses. It will increase their profits to have an underclass of minorities that cannot rise above minimum wage because their entire race are kept out of higher class jobs reserved for whites. There is no profit advantage to giving poor people social advancement. A right wing federal government and right wing state governments will work hand in glove with big corporations to do so.

And when you say the Jim Crow era was established by "the government" which assuming you mean the federal government. It was actually the southern state and local governments that instituted the Jim Crow era and the Tea Party is always harping on "states rights" to do such things. It had nothing to do with the federal government other than that they stood idly by and let it happen from the era of Hayes all the way up to when LBJ was in office, though Kennedy kind of got the ball rolling.

And no the Tea Party isn't fundamentally different from the Republican party. They are just an extension of it founded by two billionaires, the Koch brothers. True Libertarians like Ron Paul are not in the Tea Party. The Tea Party is in favor of things like government subsidies for big corporations, keeping the defense budget inflated and us in Afghanistan, etc. The Tea Party and the Republican are synonymous.
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Unread 07-03-2011, 12:58 PM   #40
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Republicans believe in small government, more power for states to self govern (as opposed to federal government overriding them), and strict interpretation of the constitution. Jagos is a republican, just a liberal one.
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