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Unread 05-04-2013, 06:39 AM   #21
Geminex
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I know that LoL has no form of magic immunity whatsoever, that it doesn't have the same kind of roles as DotA and some are downplayed - lot less junglers, jungling is a lot harder, can't have a support that heals or helps with denying since no such thing as denying, getting rid of the notion of caster heroes who are strong early game but can't keep up by having skill damage scale...
Couple of things.
First, magic immunity is incremental. You can build resistance to magic damage (MR) just like you can build resistance to physical damage (Armor). This adds a good bit of depth to the game, I feel, as the damage enemy casters deal to you isn't necessarily straight and true, instead letting you negate a significant amount of it.

The fact that your enemies' resistance to magic scales with gold also means that many caster heroes are totally early game. A prime example of this would be leblanc, a burst caster with very strong base values, but who falls off later on because she doesn't scale with gold so well. She scales with gold a little, but casters generally scale worse with gold than autoattackers. So no, there are quite a few casters who are strong early, but fall off late.

Healing supports are totally a thing, sustain is one of the many things that make your support valuable. See champs like Sona, Soraka, Kayle, Nidalee, all very popular and useful. Particularly Sona. Generally you will also want some degree of crowd control (like slows or stuns) on a support to allow your carry to go aggressive, but saying that supports can't heal is patently false.

There's no denying, that's true, but I played DoTA, and I honestly always hated denying. Lets experienced players shut down newbies far too easily, and slows down gameplay. If you wanna deny your enemy gold and EXP, play aggressive and zone him. Much more interesting. This is also what aggressive supports do, they help you get an edge in lane and force your enemy to have to get past them every time they want to lasthit. There's room for a lot of variety in what the support does, overall, long as it helps their carry. Some pro teams have taken to playing burst casters as supports, just to be able to put on that much more pressure.

And as someone who plays jungler, jungling is perfectly feasible and a hugely important role in the game. Junglers are the one mobile role, and a lot of games are decided simply by how well the jungler uses his time. The creep camps are a bit tough at early levels, but that's no end of the world if you bring the right setup re: runes and masteries.

Anyway.

I used to play DoTA and liked it very much. Now I play LoL and enjoy it as well. I am not trying to claim that one's better than the other, here.

But given that much of what you're saying about LoL is pretty much entirely false, maybe you should do some reading up on the game before actually talking about it?
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Unread 05-04-2013, 08:27 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by Ryong View Post
DotA 2 has recommended items for each hero and you can make and share your guides in-game too.

LoL's map is smaller than DotA and as such you have that B teleport back to base - it's also on a 5 minute cooldown and it's only back to base as opposed to DotA's tps to buildings.

DotA 2 also has a ping and "draw on map" feature and a customizable set of lines for you to press a button and hold a direction to say.

I'd talk about the bush, but I'm not sure exactly how does it work.

I know that LoL has no form of magic immunity whatsoever, that it doesn't have the same kind of roles as DotA and some are downplayed - lot less junglers, jungling is a lot harder, can't have a support that heals or helps with denying since no such thing as denying, getting rid of the notion of caster heroes who are strong early game but can't keep up by having skill damage scale...
A lot of those features LoL has too. You can actually quick ping with a key+click and if you hold it down a second, use a few other pings with different meanings as well.

There are actually quite a few junglers, and it's not as hard as it's made out to be. Ganks can be difficult, sometimes, and not every champion can easily jungle, but there are a lot of junglers who can also perform in other lanes; there are bruiser junglers, carry junglers, tank/initiator junglers, ap carry junglers...

Supports with heals? Well, one support is based off healing her allies, and others have mini heals or one heal. Kayle, Taric, and Alistar off the top of my head all have some form of healing.

There are a whole lot of caster heroes, both scaling on AD and AP. Off the top of my head, Kha'Zix, LeBlanc, Pantheon, Talon, and Zed all fit that profile!

---------- Post added at 09:27 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:50 AM ----------

Actually Gem, you main jungle too? I'm playing a lot of sejuani at the moment.
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Unread 05-04-2013, 10:11 AM   #23
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Actually Gem, you main jungle too? I'm playing a lot of sejuani at the moment.
I'm still pretty new, only just hit 30. I probably won't go into ranked at all, but Jungle/Top are pretty much the lanes I know best ATM. I tend to play champs that're more farm-intensive like Jax or Cho, though I've been learning Mundo and Amumu a bit more recently.

I've also bought a whole bunch of new champs recently, just to have a bit of a larger arsenal, and I've been just playing a bunch of arams to get to know those a bit better.

I'm Geminex on NA, btw, and anyone's welcome to add me. Again, I'm not really one for super competitive play, but I'm generally open for a friendly ARAM, TT or SR.
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Unread 05-04-2013, 10:40 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by Geminex View Post
Couple of things.
First, magic immunity is incremental. You can build resistance to magic damage (MR) just like you can build resistance to physical damage (Armor). This adds a good bit of depth to the game, I feel, as the damage enemy casters deal to you isn't necessarily straight and true, instead letting you negate a significant amount of it.
You have magic resistance items in DotA too, sure, there's a lot less, - cloak, hood, pipe - but then there's also Linkens and the whole magic immunity mechanic. Lots of things also decrease the enemy magic resist, just as there are items that decrease enemy armor, but I suppose LoL also has those.

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Originally Posted by Geminex View Post
I used to play DoTA and liked it very much. Now I play LoL and enjoy it as well. I am not trying to claim that one's better than the other, here.

But given that much of what you're saying about LoL is pretty much entirely false, maybe you should do some reading up on the game before actually talking about it?
Aside from getting wrong that healing is less prominent and getting the two teleports mixed up I don't see what I've said that was false.

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Originally Posted by Odjn View Post
A lot of those features LoL has too. You can actually quick ping with a key+click and if you hold it down a second, use a few other pings with different meanings as well.
I was answering Yumil's mention of said features.

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Originally Posted by Odjn View Post
There are actually quite a few junglers, and it's not as hard as it's made out to be. Ganks can be difficult, sometimes, and not every champion can easily jungle, but there are a lot of junglers who can also perform in other lanes; there are bruiser junglers, carry junglers, tank/initiator junglers, ap carry junglers...
I've heard jungling in LoL is much more strict than DotA's, that you have to follow a specific pattern or your teammates will be assholes. This was even mentioned earlier in the thread as being a thing.

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Originally Posted by Odjn View Post
Supports with heals? Well, one support is based off healing her allies, and others have mini heals or one heal. Kayle, Taric, and Alistar off the top of my head all have some form of healing.
Most heals I've checked feel like the healing is just a smaller part of a buff, because LoL is crazy about buffs.

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Originally Posted by Odjn View Post
There are a whole lot of caster heroes, both scaling on AD and AP. Off the top of my head, Kha'Zix, LeBlanc, Pantheon, Talon, and Zed all fit that profile!
The issue is that in DotA, heroes are either early, mid or late game, with some few being kind of good at all points. LoL has everyone scale, even if some start out better than others.
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Unread 05-04-2013, 12:33 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Ryong View Post
The issue is that in DotA, heroes are either early, mid or late game, with some few being kind of good at all points. LoL has everyone scale, even if some start out better than others.
It's there in lol too. Mages generally scale best early to mid, assassins mid, bruisers mid to late, ad carrys are typically late.

There are some exceptions. Some good examples of this are Ezreal who tends to be better early-mid but falls off as a carry late game, Kayle who can build quite a few ways and each build shines at different times, and tristana who is omgwtfbbq op late game, but only if she can get through her abyssmal early-mid game. Theres also Urgot and Yorick who are total lane bullies that fall of mid-late.

Just because abilities can scale doesn't mean they all scale well. AoE abilities in particular usually have horrid scaling along with skills that do multiple things(kayles heal that is also a speed buff).
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Unread 05-04-2013, 12:41 PM   #26
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Yeah, what yumil said. That's a point I've tried to explain above, maybe it didn't come across? Not all champions can make the same amount of use of gold. Support champions often have weak ability power ratios, and rely on CC and utility spells for the bulk of their power. Gold has little use for them directly. AD carries, on the other hand, when at full build, can kill entire teams in a matter of seconds, because between crit chance, attack speed, and raw damage items, they can build up massive amounts of DPS. There's a defnite divide, and the fact that all champs scale doesn't mean they scale equally well. That's one of the things you should really read up on, I think.
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Unread 05-04-2013, 01:57 PM   #27
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As an example, Pantheon and LeBlanc both scale well on paper but the nature of their skill set means that late game they tend to stink. However, both are notorious for their early game lane dominance; Pantheon tends to crap on anyone without significant sustain, for example.
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Unread 05-04-2013, 03:05 PM   #28
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Really, dota/dota ii is a fine game. Valve has done a wonderful job refining the dota map into a standalone game. I have nothing but respect for the dota community.

LoL being the same genre and being based off the same map brings a lot of simularity. Its the same as dota in as many ways that they differ. I dont think we need to focus on this. Many notions will compare, such as my upcoming one, but Im not asking you to choose.

The main difference is that LoL tries to streamline the formula while dota ii embraces it. Both bring a lot of depth, but mechanics wise LoL is easier to pick up.

Being in Steam Payed/invite beta, Dotas community is a lot more welcoming. I have a feeling that may change over time as HoNs community was similar in its infancy and is pretty bad now. Riot is actively trying to fix the toxicness in their community and have made great strides towards that goal, however there are still toxic players. Dotas community is still better overall.

Finally, LoLs esport side is a lot more mature. Riot is estabilishing a brand and with their weekly league play is much more easily accessible than their competitors. I very much like watching the streams. Last time I checked DOTA tourney streams took a payperview approach, which while Im sure are absolutely amazing to watch really shuts me out as I can get much of the same experience for free through lol. Correct me if they no longer do this or Im mistaken about it.

Anywho, both offer great games. This thread is more about why you should give it a try, I dont want you to quit dota for it, just know that its come a long way since season 1.

Last edited by Yumil; 05-04-2013 at 03:08 PM.
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Unread 05-04-2013, 05:04 PM   #29
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I wouldn't know about the tourney streams - I think you can buy tickets which net you a courier or some such, but I believe there are other places to watch.

Also, I assure you, the community of WC3 DotA, DotA2 and LoL are terrible, no matter what. WC3 DotA had people being crazy assholes who left games in the most asshole way possible ( if you just left the game through it, it'd be fine, but no, people would alt+f4 or unplug their internet, just because it made everyone in the room go through a minute of waiting ). DotA2 I don't play with Brazilians because they're dickwads who taunt you, losing or winning. I've had several friends who quit DotA to play LoL because they weren't happy with how everyone was a dickwad only to find that LoL had different kinds of dickwads and people giving up from matches because someone did something wrong in their view.
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Unread 05-04-2013, 06:24 PM   #30
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Got to love moments like that.
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