So do Americans know that stuff they like costs money, or...?

[Magus]

So apparently most Americans are not in favor of raising the debt ceiling, according to a CBS News poll. I have the feeling they don't know what that means: everything from ruining America's ability to get loans in the future, to shutting off social security checks and medicare coverage, defaulting on U.S. government bonds, and destroying our fragile economy. But, y'know, if they were aware of all that and still in favor of it, okay, maybe I could like, kind of see that perspective.

A ton of them are in favor of lowering the maximum tax rate, as well. Not sure if this is most of them like with the CBS News poll about the debt ceiling, but it's certainly a large part of the Republican party.

But then like very single poll I've seen shows most Americans being in favor of un-capped Medicare payments, social security cost of living increases, new roads and infrastructure, government spending on job creation, etc. etc...

So basically America is saying, "We want all this nice stuff and will cry bloody murder if you take it away, but will also do that if you raise taxes on the rich or borrow the money."

So, I propose that there is must secretly be alchemists hiding in our midst, capable of miraculously transmuting base metals into gold.

Hear me out. This is literally the only way America's overall thought process makes sense. The only other option is that the American people are apparently entirely incapable of coherent or reasoning thought. And we all know that can't be true.

Thus, you must believe in the secret society of alchemists who run our government from behind the scenes, mysteriously plucking gold from thin air to pay for our many wonderful things. And I don't just mean those guys over at the Treasury printing off extra bills. I mean, literally, wizards using magic to transform rocks into pure, valuable gold.

Miracles. They're all around us. And we don't even see them!

Or, you know, they're just going to tax the middle class to death and cut off our medicare if we cost too much to keep alive and ruin social security by privatizing it, all to keep the bonuses of CEOs as high as possible and please their donors who keep them in office so they can keep scamming the system in a never-ending cycle of fiscal rape.

But I like the alchemist theory more.

[Krylo]

A person is an intelligent reasonable being capable of coherent thought.

People are a ridiculous mass of unthinking morons.

That is why there is such a ridiculous discrepancy.

[Magus]

But I thought Adam Smith proved the aggregate consensus of the populace was statistically the correct choice! Then again, I guess that means Crocs were a good idea...

[Doc ock rokc]

first off a little medical reform in the united states would cut medicare costs dramatically. US is usually charged 3-5 times more then other countries and the FDA has been letting alot of things slide that have in turn kicked people in the ass. if we start ramming on medical companies (all of which are in the united states to begin with) we could get them to stop ripping us off for 200% profit.

second off majority of the debit is attributed to military endeavors. Such as RND and the many wars the UN drags us into.

[Shyria Dracnoir]

The iron is that with so many alchemists pumping gold into the marketplace, its material worth would plummet overnight and our economy would still be FUBAR'd.

[Solid Snake]

Substantial slashes to bloated military programs + no more troops in Iraq, only small covert strike forces in Afghanistan + hiked tax rates for those earning more than $100,000/yr + extra high "you're a CEO making 236 someodd times more than the average American worker, fuck you" tax = balanced budget + no need to reduce most vital services = budgetary windfalls can be invested into incentives for renewable technology research, development and large-scale implementation = reduced reliance on fossil fuels, healthier air, more money kept in the national economy, planet to live on a century from now.

Welp, that was easy!

[Bifrost]

Raising the debt ceiling just means that the feds can put actually paying it back and getting into some serious reforms re:how they spend money off for longer.

Incidentally, I'm also apparently the lone asshole who thinks that we need to seriously cut down on spending pretty much everywhere and that a slight boost to taxes overall (or, rather, a single tax rate for all Americans regardles of income because a varied one like we currently have is what fucked Rome's economy over so FUCK YOU, FEDS) is not a bad thing atm.

But yeah, the feds have never been good with money. It's like none of them took basic economics at any level of schooling, in addition to forgetting basic math.

[Eltargrim]

Not raising the debt ceiling is possibly the stupidest idea ever.

People thing things are bad now? Look at Greece. Look at Ireland. Look at Portugal. That is what will happen if the debt ceiling is not raised. If the United States defaults on its obligations, do you think people will still regard it as a safe haven? Of course not. Interest rates would skyrocket, and the US government would be completely and totally fucked. Didn't like the recession? The US government defaulting would probably create effects to rival, if not surpass, the Great Depression, and would have global repercussions.

On another note, a flat tax rate is recessive and ineffective. A better approach to tax reform is to remove loopholes, tax havens, and other things that largely reduce the tax burden of the upper-middle class and the upper class. Removing those would increase revenue dramatically while savings could either pay down the deficit, or reduce the tax burden of the lower-middle and lower class, because those people tend to actually spend money.

[Melfice]

Originally Posted by Doc ock rokc

second off majority of the debit is attributed to military endeavors. Such as RND and the many wars the UN drags us into.

I am more than willing to pass this off as sarcasm and never bring it up again in this thread.

But let's get this straight:

European, Japanese and Canadian combat forces have been stationed in Afghanistan and/or Iraq because the United States decided to attack these countries.
As a result, non-American soldiers have died there for the simple reason of the United States posturing, going so far as threatening to revoke "friendship" with any country that did not support the United States' invasion. (I'm sure we all remember the whole "Freedom Fries" bit, because France was sceptical of the war.)

The United Nations, however, has only ever once declared war, during the time where North Korea invaded South Korea in 1990.

Frankly, the United States drags the United Nations (members) into wars.


ON TOPIC:

Honestly, I think this is a situation that happens nearly everywhere. "WANT STUFF! DON'T WANNA PAY FOR IT! You figure out how to make that work. You're the politicians!"

[Magus]

We can all at least agree on the general sentiment that the 400 billion dollars the U.S. spends annually on defense stuff is one of the major causes of our bloated deficit, along with the Bush tax cuts, the most recent of which will cost us 700 billion dollars in revenue over the next ten years, presuming they keep renewing it every two years by holding everybody else's tax breaks hostage (frankly which we could probably do without, I see little reason in seeing my income tax go down 2% so a bunch of rich people's can go down 10%, especially when the state will just raise my payroll tax to make up for it).