The Campaign Against Porn

[Kaelus]

Originally Posted by Lockeownzj00

Being high-strung and stressed out from lack of a sex life or sexual release isn't a theory, it's a known phenomena.

*nod nod* Agree. If you ever saw a 50-year-old single woman working as a counselor in a primary school, you'll know what I'm talking about. >_>'

[Nique]

Let's see how much we can clear up here...

Originally Posted by Funka

and everytime I have to read the word pr0n my head hurts a little...

I am honestly sorry about that, but I figured "why attract a crowd who is no doubt using the famed google search engine in their quest for jollies to our forums?" Hence, the l337-speak spelling.

Who said anything about needs?

...If I replaced the word 'need' with the phrase 'biological urge', would that be better? The desired effect is carried in either case, I think, although you are technically correct. It's like someone saying "I NEED to see that movie".

I have no idea what you're on about their Nique. heh.

You might not be specifically talking about this... But locke certainly found it disturbing...

Originally Posted by locke

Somehow God has touched even my phallus? Is nothing sacred?

Which was in response to me -

Originally Posted by Me

Humans have sexual needs. It's scientific, and despite opinions to the contrary, it's even religious.

Just to clarify what I meant; Adhereing to traditional religiously-themed moral codes (such as those found in the bible) rarely means 'zero sex EV4R'! If anyone has read 'Song of Solomon' you'll know what I'm talking about.

Also: Deliciously ironic phrasing, Locke. Bravo.

If you're suggesting that orgasm is addictive to the point of driving a person to irrational activity to attain it, you're starting to sound a bit crazy yourself.

Are you kidding? Rape, child molestation, beastiality... These things are all, generally, illegal, yet they are enacted by numerous induviduals regardless. Is rape not irrational? Are rapists not engaging in an irrational activity to attain orgasm?

Maybe you've phrased yourself badly here, so I'll give you this;
Looking at pornography, masturbating, and generally engaging in sexual activity does not make someone a pedophile/rapist. These same things are also not helpful in making someone a, oh let's say, 'not-pedophile', however.

Sexual feelings are addictive, for almost every single person in the world. I don't have a problem with that. Obviously, it's something everyone has to figure out a way to cope with. Constant exposure isn't so much 'coping' as it is temporary relife... Much like curing an alcoholic's withdrawl symptoms with another hit of whiskey.

It doesn't make you grow hair on your palms and you won't go blind if you do it too many times.

I don't think I'm being ridiculous like this at all in my arguments, and I'd appriciate not having a whole lot of straw man involved here.

The world isn't some idyllic fantasyland where everyone finds that "special someone" and falls madly in love. It just doesn't work that way and no matter how more appealing you find monogamy to be it isn't going to change the fact that there are horny people out there without a snowballs chance in hell of ever getting laid.

...I think you'd be surprised. I can think of a dozen or more couples fitting your socially inept / horribly ugly descriptions who also have children togethor, and at least reasonably happy relationships. That said, I think there are other things life has to offer that, with enough effort, could replace sex. It isn't THAT important.

Originally Posted by krylo

Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you've said you're a virgin quite a few times. ...So what would you kno about what are unrealistic expectations?

I'm a little irritated at this line of reasoning, to be honest, but I'll entertain it... Just becuase I haven't had sex, doesn't mean I don't have any understanding of the sensations involved, or of how and why different people would be (un)comfortable with different things, or what some of those things might be.

Well, I don't know what Kaelus would rather, but given a choice between my little cousins wanking or fucking, I'd pick wanking.

When I said 'sexual attention' I didn't mean sex itself, nessecerily - only in that such attention would, at some point, lead to sexual intercourse. The age of said cousin is unclear to me, btw. Nique does not endorse underage screwing.

Have fun with your prostate cancer.

Which give me another reason to be somewhat torn on the issue of age and marriage... On the one hand, modern youth around the 17-24 area, we'll say, have pretty terrible odds at sucessful marriage relationships, which is mostly an unhealthy thing, socially. But physically speaking, that's getting into the right time for making babies and just being generally aroused, in paticular if you are in love with someone.

However, I find the claim somewhat suspect, but then again, I would.

Originally Posted by Locke

Being high-strung and stressed out from lack of a sex life or sexual release isn't a theory, it's a known phenomena.

Who ever said to have no sex life? 'Tis not my point. In any case, there are perfectly sound methods of releasing stress, not involving sexual release even if that is the root of the problem.

[Dj_StarChild]

Originally Posted by Nique

Just to clarify what I meant; Adhereing to traditional religiously-themed moral codes (such as those found in the bible) rarely means 'zero sex EV4R'! If anyone has read 'Song of Solomon' you'll know what I'm talking about.

Religion should not be applied to anything ever. That's just my opinion...

Originally Posted by Nique

Are you kidding? Rape, child molestation, beastiality... These things are all, generally, illegal, yet they are enacted by numerous induviduals regardless. Is rape not irrational? Are rapists not engaging in an irrational activity to attain orgasm?

You don't think that "animals are available to give me orgasms, and I desire an orgasm" is rational? Or even "I desire sexual gratification through intercourse with a child, therefore, I must seek out a child to have intercourse with"? Those seem rational to me. Sure, you might say they're immoral, but they're not irrational. Knowing what you want, and devising easy ways to get it is a very rational act, says me. It's the qualities that lead them to seek out these irregular that are out of place. Selfishness is usually frowned upon. Intercourse with children is frowned upon. (Although, I can see it being somewhat irrational, if these children are not at a stage of physical development which would provide comfortable, and satisfying sex. Who wants that from anyone of any age?)

Originally Posted by Nique

Maybe you've phrased yourself badly here, so I'll give you this;
Looking at pornography, masturbating, and generally engaging in sexual activity does not make someone a pedophile/rapist. These same things are also not helpful in making someone a, oh let's say, 'not-pedophile', however.

Generally, I would say that the desire to carry out the act of pedophilia and/or rape is what constitutes being a rapist or pedophile. You're not a rapist if you don't plan on, or desire to rape anybody. Though, I'd like to point out that there are many forms of rape, and that they are only able to be analysed on a case by case basis. So...just ignore rape altogether. It's complicated. Fuck rape.

Originally Posted by Nique

Sexual feelings are addictive, for almost every single person in the world. I don't have a problem with that. Obviously, it's something everyone has to figure out a way to cope with. Constant exposure isn't so much 'coping' as it is temporary relife... Much like curing an alcoholic's withdrawl symptoms with another hit of whiskey.

Let me help you here: Sexual feelings CAN BE addictive. I know I am not addicted to sexual gratification. I am addicted to the internet. I am addicted to music. Hell, I'm addicted to rating people on wouldyouhitthis.com, but I am not addicted to sexual gratification. Sure, it's nice, but I couldn't spend all day doing it. It'd hurt, and it'd be boring. I am not motivated by the desire for sex. I think your statement applies, but you generalised too much.

Originally Posted by nique

...I think you'd be surprised. I can think of a dozen or more couples fitting your socially inept / horribly ugly descriptions who also have children togethor, and at least reasonably happy relationships. That said, I think there are other things life has to offer that, with enough effort, could replace sex. It isn't THAT important.

Those ugly couples are probably having sex all the time. Don't you worry.

Originally Posted by Nique

I'm a little irritated at this line of reasoning, to be honest, but I'll entertain it... Just becuase I haven't had sex, doesn't mean I don't have any understanding of the sensations involved, or of how and why different people would be (un)comfortable with different things, or what some of those things might be.

Well, technically, everyone's experience of sex is pretty different. And, while it may not matter whether or not you know the experiences of sex itself, it could matter in terms of the emotions associated with it (which are generally not poofy or romantic, like most virgins seem to think), the mood, the atmosphere. I think it's a kind of "you've got to be a monk to know what's behind the door in the monastery" kind of situation. You can IMAGINE what it's like, but it really is something that alters your way of thinking about it, and until you've experienced it, you don't really know. Not to say that your views are not credible, but they are biased, just as the views of someone who HAS had sex are biased. Agree to disagree.

Originally Posted by Nique

Which give me another reason to be somewhat torn on the issue of age and marriage... On the one hand, modern youth around the 17-24 area, we'll say, have pretty terrible odds at sucessful marriage relationships, which is mostly an unhealthy thing, socially. But physically speaking, that's getting into the right time for making babies and just being generally aroused, in particular if you are in love with someone.

You know that there are 12 year olds regularly having sex with eachother, right?

Originally Posted by nique

Who ever said to have no sex life? 'Tis not my point. In any case, there are perfectly sound methods of releasing stress, not involving sexual release even if that is the root of the problem.

For example, arguing with people on message boards. Sure there are many ways to relieve stress. The best way to relieve stress over a problem is to resolve it. If the problem is a sexual problem, the resolution to the problem most likely involves sexual things. That said, you can't expect someone who is stressed because they have had no sexual intimacy with another person to relieve that stress by exercising in the morning. It doesn't solve the problem. They want sexual intimacy. Relief of that stress comes from achieving sexual intimacy.

And...that's about all I can handle before I piss myself or Destroy this textbook on Sartre..

[Nique]

Religion should not be applied to anything ever. That's just my opinion...

Which carries what point exactly? I was just saying that 'sex' itself is not considered evil or bad in religious circles, generally. We aren't having a religious disscussion, but this statment leads it down that path very directly, so.. let's not go there, shall we?

Those seem rational to me. Sure, you might say they're immoral, but they're not irrational. Knowing what you want, and devising easy ways to get it is a very rational act, says me.

Rationalizing =! Rational. I want a million dollars - I COULD knock down a bank. Even a well-thought-out robbery leads us to consequences. Jail Time, living life on the run... Not considering those consequences, add to the complete lack of a sense of social responsibility, seems irrational.

My point was not one of morality or perception, but rather, legality in relation to potential consequences - A rapist is committing a crime(s) which, if caught, will be met with penalties which would very likely deprive him of achiving orgasm again anytime soon (maybe never again, depending on which country you're in). Considering that, and still preforming a rape(s), makes me think that, yes, this person wants sex SO bad, he is willing to do something irrational for it. Sounds a lot like an addiction to me.

Generally, I would say that the desire to carry out the act of pedophilia and/or rape is what constitutes being a rapist or pedophile

...and?

If I wasn't clear, let's make this simple; I agree.

Sexual feelings CAN BE addictive. I know I am not addicted to sexual gratification. I am addicted to the internet. I am addicted to music. Hell, I'm addicted to rating people on wouldyouhitthis.com, but I am not addicted to sexual gratification. Sure, it's nice, but I couldn't spend all day doing it. It'd hurt, and it'd be boring. I am not motivated by the desire for sex. I think your statement applies, but you generalised too much.

'Spending all day' doing something is not a qualifier for it being an addiction. I don't label sexual desire as an addiction in the same vein that I would drugs, becuase I don't belive it's an addiction that is physically harmful (usually...). However, it IS an addiction nonetheless. It carries all the same traits...

It's not that I don't belive what you're saying about yourself, becuase I would describe myself similarly - I still, however, am of the mind that I am biologically hooked on sexual feelings. It's not THE motivator, yes, but it is a motivator, and a damn good one at that.

Anyway, I don't call it 'addicting' and mean it in a negative way.

Those ugly couples are probably having sex all the time. Don't you worry.

Ok, seriously. This is like the third time you've re-stated something I either said, implied, or obviously would agree with based on my post... what's the deal?

You can IMAGINE what it's like, but it really is something that alters your way of thinking about it, and until you've experienced it, you don't really know. Not to say that your views are not credible, but they are biased, just as the views of someone who HAS had sex are biased. Agree to disagree.

I understand that the expieriance itself makes something in your mind go 'oh. NOW I get it'... Much like with Booze. Oh man, did I hate the idea of drinking. At all. However, after I had gone out a few times, I learned things about drinking; 1) I like it, generally, which was surprising 2) What my personal limit is 3) why it's a bad idea, on the whole, to do anything complicated or potentially dangerous after 2-3 drinks in a row (which is, aproxamtly and consequently, my limit, depending.)

However, my perception of the dangers or other details associated with alcohol has not changed. Enhanced or enlightened in some respect, but the experiance itself was no great revelation considering my prior knowledge. I suspect sex will be much the same.

You know that there are 12 year olds regularly having sex with eachother, right?

I am aware that sex is (comfortably, at least) possible after puberty or somewhere therin, yes. Some children wear vampire teeth and black makeup, and listen to emo/goth bands, and I am similarly not in favor of this.

I'm fairly certain infant mortality percentages look a little better for the girls whose bodies have actually developed beyond the training bra, however. I take that as a biological hint, personally.

[Krylo]

However, my perception of the dangers or other details associated with alcohol has not changed. Enhanced or enlightened in some respect, but the experiance itself was no great revelation considering my prior knowledge. I suspect sex will be much the same.

Probably, but you won't know what realistically happens in the bedroom until you've been there. That's all I was saying.

Kind of like I won't realistically know what goes on in war until I've been THERE. I can right now guess how horrible it is. I can probably come up with a pretty good guess. But I don't know, realistically, what goes on.

Dig?

Like I said, a lot of the stuff in porn is realistic. At least as far as the actual SEX goes. Those positions work.

I mean... obviously pizza boys rarely get seduced by middle aged women in lingerie.

I don't mean to degrade your thoughts or anything--just pointing out that many things you may think of as unrealistic I have done, thus obviously proving it IS realistic.

Ok, seriously. This is like the third time you've re-stated something I either said, implied, or obviously would agree with based on my post... what's the deal?

His point is that just because they're ugly doesn't mean sex isn't important to them--which is what you implied in your post.

They actually probably find each other attractive.

...Oh you crazy ugly people, will you ever learn?

My point was not one of morality or perception, but rather, legality in relation to potential consequences - A rapist is committing a crime(s) which, if caught, will be met with penalties which would very likely deprive him of achiving orgasm again anytime soon (maybe never again, depending on which country you're in). Considering that, and still preforming a rape(s), makes me think that, yes, this person wants sex SO bad, he is willing to do something irrational for it. Sounds a lot like an addiction to me.

Most rapes are actually crimes of control.

Look up the psychology of a rapist. Date rapes have a chance of being purely "Ho'shit I'm horny," yes, but not a good one. Generally you gain the ability to control yourself rather quickly when your partner struggles enough.

Again, the vast majority of rape is NOT "I'm addicted to sex" but rather "I feel like exerting control on this woman by forcing her into an act which my species has defined as the most intimate, because there is no more complete control to be had."

Really, porn won't make you into anything you aren't.

If it did, I'd sure as hell be a pedophile/necrophile/scat-fetishist/golden shower enthusiast/vomit-fetishist. God knows I've seen enough porn relating to all of them in my years on the internet. Sometimes in the midst of looking at better porn. Like bondage. Mmm... bondage.

Yes, I do find it hard to take this topic seriously.

[Nique]

Dig?

Yeah, we're cool.

I mean... obviously pizza boys rarely get seduced by middle aged women in lingerie.

..I wonder if we'd both be surprised...>.>

His point is that just because they're ugly doesn't mean sex isn't important to them--which is what you implied in your post.

Ah. No no no... The comments should have been seperated more clearly. Sorry.

...And... I'm sorry... vomit?

Way to ruin the mood, krylo. Nyah!

[POS Industries]

Most of the major arguments have been addressed here, so I'd like to take this time to speak out of personal experience...

This is me:


Now, look at this, and think back to anything you know of that I've posted. Do you honestly believe that I've been in a healthy relationship, if any, for a while? Or that I'll be in one anytime soon?

Of course not. And that's why I gots to have my porn. Because as unbalanced as I am normally, if I didn't have the the proper, regular chemical release brought on by the combination of dirty pictures and getting to know myself better, I can't imagine how dangerously on edge I would be. And yes, I would MUCH rather have the kind of happy, healthy sexual relationship that damn near everybody else seems to enjoy, but until then I'm left to battle my flood of hormones alone...

...or at least with the help of a good sir named Tommy and his bookmarks. Godspeed!

[Nique]

And that's why I gots to have my porn. Because as unbalanced as I am normally, if I didn't have the the proper, regular chemical release brought on by the combination of dirty pictures and getting to know myself better, I can't imagine how dangerously on edge I would be.

I don't think you, or anyone with that perception is giving themselves enough credit. I'd have to learn more of your specific situation to make a fairer statment, but the idea that you 'CAN NOT have a healthy relationship' speaks to a problem rooted, at least in part, with self-confidence. You then turn to porn as your release or 'escape'? This kind of thinking, no offense intended, just rationalizes addictive behavior... It seems to me, at least.

[POS Industries]

Originally Posted by Nique

I don't think you, or anyone with that perception is giving themselves enough credit. I'd have to learn more of your specific situation to make a fairer statment, but the idea that you 'CAN NOT have a healthy relationship' speaks to a problem rooted, at least in part, with self-confidence. You then turn to porn as your release or 'escape'? This kind of thinking, no offense intended, just rationalizes addictive behavior... It seems to me, at least.

Sorry, I was trying to approach the idea humorously. The basic issue is that for me, who is more or less virulently misanthropic, still has hormonal urges that have to be tended to. So, when this need occurs, I turn to the next best thing to actually having another human being present. Simple as that. "Release" is a fairly accurate term for it. "Escape" is not. I am not imagining myself with these women. It is in fact more than likely that I would find them unbearable to know personally, and I would guess that the feeling would be mutual. We're not exactly each other's type. What these images do is provide nothing more than a visual stimulation that help the process. The obvious negative connotation, of course, is that this sort of thing objectifies or dehumanizes the subjects. It does not. The images inspire my own fantasies more often than not. The sounds and images allow the brain to delve deeper into its own imagination. This could then be looked on as escapism, granted, but it is no more of an escape than any other form of media. At least not for me, but my brain works differently than most, so I my experiences may not be indicative of the common man's. I could explain more on that fact, but it would be dreadfully off-topic.

As for the statement about how I've "been in a healthy relationship, if any, for a while, or that I'll be in one anytime soon" (the actual statement, different from your interpretation) was approached with the intent of self-depracating humor. The long and the short of it is that it has to do with the sort of girls to which I'm attracted, the sort of girls who are attracted to me, and my own unique characteristics, and explaining all of which would be off topic as well. Otherwise, I'd be happy to go into it, but this is most definately not the format.

Overall, my point is that I agree with you. The old-fashioned, intimate, two-person kind of sex life is always preferable, but there's more to going out and just finding that special someone for some people, if not most people. To say something is bad only because there's a better alternative is terribly unreasonable. I felt that Locke's analogy about the difference between going to a concert and listening to a CD to be quite apt. One is clearly far better than the other, but both have their place.

Quid quo pro.

[Nique]

I apologize for my mis-interpretation. A joke would've helped, but I have a better understanding of what you are trying to say now. Sorry.

I felt that Locke's analogy about the difference between going to a concert and listening to a CD to be quite apt. One is clearly far better than the other, but both have their place.

If my thoughts on porn having negative consequences is correct, it's not quite the same. I don't think the kind of entertainment these two things (music and porn) provide are similar enough in intensity or even effect to be compared so causually.

However, all the points have been made. I think porn has negative effects on induviduals & relationships, whereas the majority of everyone else feels it is just another way to entertain themselves.

And that's the way it was...