the death penalty - Page 5

Roy_D_Mylote · 03-09-2006, 06:51 PM

Just because someone is making yourself miserable, is not an excuse to kill them. And killing someone because they are keeping you from killing something else is also not an excuse.

Kaelus · 03-09-2006, 07:01 PM

Yeah... but I don't know what I'd do in their place. Probably I wouldn't be able to think straight and I'd end up doing exactly the same thing. As I said before, people from outside will never understand the feelings of those involved. Judging according to your own values and killing people without putting yourself in their place is also not an excuse.

And about the guy with the murdered parents... killing for your country and the State is awarded with medals and considered a noble, heroic action. Killing for your parents it's much more... human, I think.

Roy_D_Mylote · 03-09-2006, 07:06 PM

He isn't killing for his parents; he's killing for revenge. It's different. If he were killing to keep his parents alive that would be different, but since they are already dead it falls under the heading of revenge which, in my philosphy, is wrong. Killing for your country is (usually) defending it.

I dunno, morals is a funny subject.

Kaelus · 03-09-2006, 07:24 PM

He'd be killing in the name of his parents in both cases. Just because they're gone, doesn't mean that he can forget them, or pretend they never existed to live a new life. The grudge would never disappear, and I doubt you can really put aside these things. Besides, defending the honor of your family is also valid, no? Killing for your parents would personally make much more sense than going to a foreign country, enduring extreme climatic conditions and indiscriminately killing people you've never seen before for reasons that have nothing to do with you.

But yes, all cases have exceptions. It's just funny that, in both cases, the actions taken exactly are the same... but when you kill in great numbers and at the sound of trumpets, then it's okay.

Roy_D_Mylote · 03-09-2006, 07:35 PM

I don't want to make the impression that I advocate killing or anything, but...fighting for Countries is different, somehow.

Dasanudas · 03-09-2006, 07:59 PM

First off, forget karma, forget I ever said the word. I'm a sadistic FREAK who wants to be the one who jams the electrodes into the mudering pig's genitals and laughs as he fries and does one of those sobbing, scream-cries when his eyeballs pop and run down his cheeks. OK? We off that? Cool. (i.e. - if you want in depth explanation of karma, this thread or perhaps even this forum wouldn't be the best place for it).

As for the differences of killing (killing murderer of one's parents or killing for a country), the difference lies in duty. The actions are not the same, simply the manifestation of said action - which may seem like same thing, different words, but let me try to explain. The first action is revenge - it is selfish, it is based purely on the single person's own desires - the manifestation of that action (revenge) is killing the culprit. The second action is serving one's country - this is not a selfish act, nor is it based on a personal desire. It is done out of seeing a greater good in serving the larger society. It is also - in this case - manifested as killing. While it is still in one sense a desire based on the self (I am caring more about these people than the culprit because they are MY parents, and I am caring more about this society than the other because it is MY country), the circle is larger, thus seen by most as more OK (man, there's got to be a better way to put that).

Usually, the larger the circle of influence extending out from a self, the more moral or noble it is considered by people: ME, MY family, MY community, MY state, MY country, MY species, MY planet, etc.), but we can see that these are all due to some sort of identification with the self, thus the "my" each time.

(Oh hey, look, the track is waaaaay over there. How did I get here? *runs back*)

Basically, killing for yourself - BAD; killing cause teh gubbu'ment told ya - not GOOD, but not punishable by life in prison or death - DUTY

MetalPsycho · 03-09-2006, 08:06 PM

Quote:

First off, forget karma, forget I ever said the word. I'm a sadistic FREAK who wants to be the one who jams the electrodes into the mudering pig's genitals and laughs as he fries and does one of those sobbing, scream-cries when his eyeballs pop and run down his cheeks. OK? We off that? Cool. (i.e. - if you want in depth explanation of karma, this thread or perhaps even this forum wouldn't be the best place for it).

Let me just ask you this. What happenes when that man turns out to be foind innoscent later on?

I don't mind the Death Penalty. I mind our judicial system. It's quite flawed. We've put innoscent people to death before, and we'll probably continue to do so.

Kaelus · 03-09-2006, 08:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roy_D_Mylote

I don't want to make the impression that I advocate killing or anything, but...fighting for Countries is different, somehow.

Maybe because killing for revenge would only bring personal satisfaction? Sounds like a rather selfish action, murdering others "just because" your parents are dead.

Going to war and killing for your country sounds like an act that would bring satisfaction to everybody in the nation, so it doesn't really sound like murder. You wouldn't be wasting a life, but building a better future instead. When you're at war, you have the society's support. You're acting as a representative for your country's welfare, even if it means committing genocide.

EDIT: yeah, it's basically what Dasanudas said. I shouldn't leave the post half-written to do something else and return later to put it in the forums. Darn. ._.'

bolevar321 · 03-09-2006, 08:23 PM

Well, now that depends. Yes, killing for vengeance is wrong, it perpetuates a vicious cycle; that murderer may have siblings, parents, and etc. who would then want to avenge his death on you, then someone avenges you... It just keeps going. Fighting for honor is ok, but killing when death is unnecesary is also dishonorable. And no, killing for your country is not always morally just. If you have to kill a bad man who's oppressing your freedom, or endangering you or other people, that's fine. But if you have to kill someone who may be just like you for some scrap of desert, or even for a fricking oil field, hell yes that's wrong.

Toastburner B · 03-10-2006, 10:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MetalPsycho

We've put innoscent people to death before, and we'll probably continue to do so.

Just out of curiosity, do you have a source for this? I hear it brought up often, but, if I recall correctly, no one has ever brought up a specific example.

03-09-2006, 06:51 PM	#41
Roy_D_Mylote Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: The sky. Posts: 1,030	Just because someone is making yourself miserable, is not an excuse to kill them. And killing someone because they are keeping you from killing something else is also not an excuse. __________________ I hate roleclaims.

03-09-2006, 07:01 PM	#42
Kaelus Pushing the sky. Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Nobody ever types anything normal here. Posts: 243	Yeah... but I don't know what I'd do in their place. Probably I wouldn't be able to think straight and I'd end up doing exactly the same thing. As I said before, people from outside will never understand the feelings of those involved. Judging according to your own values and killing people without putting yourself in their place is also not an excuse. And about the guy with the murdered parents... killing for your country and the State is awarded with medals and considered a noble, heroic action. Killing for your parents it's much more... human, I think. __________________ New signature coming soon. >_o

03-09-2006, 07:06 PM	#43
Roy_D_Mylote Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: The sky. Posts: 1,030	He isn't killing for his parents; he's killing for revenge. It's different. If he were killing to keep his parents alive that would be different, but since they are already dead it falls under the heading of revenge which, in my philosphy, is wrong. Killing for your country is (usually) defending it. I dunno, morals is a funny subject. __________________ I hate roleclaims.

03-09-2006, 07:24 PM	#44
Kaelus Pushing the sky. Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Nobody ever types anything normal here. Posts: 243	He'd be killing in the name of his parents in both cases. Just because they're gone, doesn't mean that he can forget them, or pretend they never existed to live a new life. The grudge would never disappear, and I doubt you can really put aside these things. Besides, defending the honor of your family is also valid, no? Killing for your parents would personally make much more sense than going to a foreign country, enduring extreme climatic conditions and indiscriminately killing people you've never seen before for reasons that have nothing to do with you. But yes, all cases have exceptions. It's just funny that, in both cases, the actions taken exactly are the same... but when you kill in great numbers and at the sound of trumpets, then it's okay. __________________ New signature coming soon. >_o

03-09-2006, 07:35 PM	#45
Roy_D_Mylote Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: The sky. Posts: 1,030	I don't want to make the impression that I advocate killing or anything, but...fighting for Countries is different, somehow. __________________ I hate roleclaims.

03-09-2006, 07:59 PM	#46
Dasanudas Bhaktisiddhanta = Lion Guru! Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: the spiritual embassy Posts: 365	First off, forget karma, forget I ever said the word. I'm a sadistic FREAK who wants to be the one who jams the electrodes into the mudering pig's genitals and laughs as he fries and does one of those sobbing, scream-cries when his eyeballs pop and run down his cheeks. OK? We off that? Cool. (i.e. - if you want in depth explanation of karma, this thread or perhaps even this forum wouldn't be the best place for it). As for the differences of killing (killing murderer of one's parents or killing for a country), the difference lies in duty. The actions are not the same, simply the manifestation of said action - which may seem like same thing, different words, but let me try to explain. The first action is revenge - it is selfish, it is based purely on the single person's own desires - the manifestation of that action (revenge) is killing the culprit. The second action is serving one's country - this is not a selfish act, nor is it based on a personal desire. It is done out of seeing a greater good in serving the larger society. It is also - in this case - manifested as killing. While it is still in one sense a desire based on the self (I am caring more about these people than the culprit because they are MY parents, and I am caring more about this society than the other because it is MY country), the circle is larger, thus seen by most as more OK (man, there's got to be a better way to put that). Usually, the larger the circle of influence extending out from a self, the more moral or noble it is considered by people: ME, MY family, MY community, MY state, MY country, MY species, MY planet, etc.), but we can see that these are all due to some sort of identification with the self, thus the "my" each time. (Oh hey, look, the track is waaaaay over there. How did I get here? runs back) Basically, killing for yourself - BAD; killing cause teh gubbu'ment told ya - not GOOD, but not punishable by life in prison or death - DUTY __________________ People are so much apt to indulge in transitory speculations even when they are to educate themselves on a situation beyond their empiric area or experiencing jurisdiction...This impulse moves them to fix the position of the immanent to an indeterminate impersonal entity, no clue of which could be discerned by moving earth and heaven through their organic senses. -Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Thakur Hare Krishna Hare Krishna Krishna Krishna Hare Hare Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare

03-09-2006, 08:23 PM	#49
bolevar321 Master of chuckery Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 391	Well, now that depends. Yes, killing for vengeance is wrong, it perpetuates a vicious cycle; that murderer may have siblings, parents, and etc. who would then want to avenge his death on you, then someone avenges you... It just keeps going. Fighting for honor is ok, but killing when death is unnecesary is also dishonorable. And no, killing for your country is not always morally just. If you have to kill a bad man who's oppressing your freedom, or endangering you or other people, that's fine. But if you have to kill someone who may be just like you for some scrap of desert, or even for a fricking oil field, hell yes that's wrong. __________________ How many swords could a swordchuck chuck if a swordchuck could chuck swords?