It's over NINE THOUSAND!!! - Page 4

I_Like_Swordchucks · 05-27-2008, 02:15 PM

Don't forget perverted kickass old men. They may have been around beforehand, but Dragonball made it popular.

It seems to be one of the oldest series I know of that consistently have reformed villains.

Lord of Joshelplex · 05-27-2008, 03:07 PM

I think DB INVENTED Shonen.

Ryong · 05-27-2008, 05:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord of Joshelplex

I think DB INVENTED Shonen.

Fist of North Star did. DB refined it.

And, seriously, I loved DBZ. The first time Goku went SSJ and Gohan's rage-to-SSJ2 were the best moments. Freeza was very well fleshed out as a villain that really, really deserved to die. Then come back and get humiliated and killed. Coming back from hell and dying again in GT wasn't bad, but it's one of the few things in GT I don't hate.

Regulus Tera · 05-27-2008, 06:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryong

Fist of North Star did. DB refined it.

I'm pretty sure manga for boys is older than the eighties. Case in point, Mach GoGoGo, Mazinger Z, and even Astro Boy. Dragon Ball mayhaps defined it into what it is today.

One should not underestimate the impact of Hokuto no Ken nevertheless. My theory is that Japan's current fixation with pretty haired boys is the result of overexposure to the levels of manliness Hokuto no Ken contained.

Aerozord · 05-27-2008, 08:01 PM

I'd still probably say alot of cliches in DBZ are cliche' because of DBZ. There probably were examples of these things before DBZ, but it was probably the popularity of DBZ that made it so wide-spread.

Mirai Gen · 05-27-2008, 08:33 PM

Quote:

Fist of North Star did. DB refined it.

If by 'refined' you mean 'turned every shounen manga and anime into contesting battles between Power Level Fucking Huge and Power Level Fucking Huger only to find Magical Power of Deus Ex Machinae to fix it' then yes, it certainly did refine it.

A majority of the things I get tired of is how Goku or Ichigo (and to a lesser extent, Amidamaru or Naruto) manage to frequently defeat galactic crisis after galactic crisis and yet somehow are completely dumbfounded when a galactic crisis that is more powerful manages to pop up. It really kills most anime to define characters as 'the biggest threat' and yet frequently disregard that title to introduce a new villain.

Part of the reason shounen doesn't appeal to me; I don't like having it spelled out that 'Character A is so incredibly powerful, oh man, you don't wanna fuck with him, he killed Villain A, only to introduce holy shit it's Villain B! He's way more powerful' every story arc.

EDIT: To clarify, this is Dragon Ball Z I'm talking about. Dragon Ball was great because it showed Goku as a clueless 10 year old kid with more power in his pants than the ancient skilled martial artist master, only to totally shatter the tongue-in-cheek humor by making him an adult and having him fight the aforementioned galactic crises over and over.

Aerozord · 05-27-2008, 09:16 PM

Yea but in Bleach, Ichigo was never the strongest there was. He still isn't.

But I do see what you mean, but most of DBZ wasn't that. Freiza saga for example was mostly about the protagonists avoiding the big baddies since they knew in straight up fights they were screwed. One part I love is how Freiza went "fine I cant beat you, so I'll just take away your ability to breathe". They beat Raditz using more tactics then anything, as both were far weaker.

Granted eventually it was big climatic fight, but to me thats a good thing. It was after all a climatic fight.

Now Buu saga, now that was pretty much pure one-up mansship. It happened more in that one saga then the rest of DBZ combined

Mirai Gen · 05-27-2008, 10:00 PM

Cell and the Androids wasn't much better. "Oh crap, some dude in the future says we're going to die so we need to train like crazy!" Then he kicks them around like crazy so they run away and power up more.

Buu was just "Crap we can't kill this guy, he's too good!" followed by them kicking his ass and then he transforms into a new form which is even more powerful and repeat and rinse.

I know that talking about Bleach isn't really accurate but there's still the problem of Power Levels Versus Power Levels, when instead of showing opposing technique or superior strength/agility instead they just spend an entire episode having Villain whip Character's ass to show how good he is, so that way it's way cool when he gets trounced later on, and I really hate that.

Lord of Joshelplex · 05-27-2008, 10:08 PM

Ya gotta admit though, Kenpachi's ultimate attack/power was pretty sweet.

Mirai Gen · 05-27-2008, 10:20 PM

Well, yeah.

It's not that Dragon Ball Z doesn't have it's merits. It's that lots of the things that irk the everloving shit out of me in relation to plot stemmed from DBZ at it's truest origins so I've got a pretty big hate-on for it. That's why I like anime music videos.

But let's talk about Dragon Ball. Tera informs me I am a buzzkill.

One of the things that I liked about it was that it was mostly about Goku being a little kid with more power than he knew what to do with. It meant that Goku, despite being ten years old was able to contend with and more often than not totally one-up Master Roshi and the villains he encountered.

05-27-2008, 08:01 PM	#35
Aerozord So we are clear Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Former murder capital of the world Posts: 13,824	I'd still probably say alot of cliches in DBZ are cliche' because of DBZ. There probably were examples of these things before DBZ, but it was probably the popularity of DBZ that made it so wide-spread. __________________ "don't hate me for being a heterosexual white guy disparaging slacktivism, hate me for all those murders I've done."

05-27-2008, 09:16 PM	#37
Aerozord So we are clear Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Former murder capital of the world Posts: 13,824	Yea but in Bleach, Ichigo was never the strongest there was. He still isn't. But I do see what you mean, but most of DBZ wasn't that. Freiza saga for example was mostly about the protagonists avoiding the big baddies since they knew in straight up fights they were screwed. One part I love is how Freiza went "fine I cant beat you, so I'll just take away your ability to breathe". They beat Raditz using more tactics then anything, as both were far weaker. Granted eventually it was big climatic fight, but to me thats a good thing. It was after all a climatic fight. Now Buu saga, now that was pretty much pure one-up mansship. It happened more in that one saga then the rest of DBZ combined __________________ "don't hate me for being a heterosexual white guy disparaging slacktivism, hate me for all those murders I've done."

05-27-2008, 10:00 PM	#38
Mirai Gen We are Geth. Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 14,032	Cell and the Androids wasn't much better. "Oh crap, some dude in the future says we're going to die so we need to train like crazy!" Then he kicks them around like crazy so they run away and power up more. Buu was just "Crap we can't kill this guy, he's too good!" followed by them kicking his ass and then he transforms into a new form which is even more powerful and repeat and rinse. I know that talking about Bleach isn't really accurate but there's still the problem of Power Levels Versus Power Levels, when instead of showing opposing technique or superior strength/agility instead they just spend an entire episode having Villain whip Character's ass to show how good he is, so that way it's way cool when he gets trounced later on, and I really hate that. __________________

05-27-2008, 10:20 PM	#40
Mirai Gen We are Geth. Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 14,032	Well, yeah. It's not that Dragon Ball Z doesn't have it's merits. It's that lots of the things that irk the everloving shit out of me in relation to plot stemmed from DBZ at it's truest origins so I've got a pretty big hate-on for it. That's why I like anime music videos. But let's talk about Dragon Ball. Tera informs me I am a buzzkill. One of the things that I liked about it was that it was mostly about Goku being a little kid with more power than he knew what to do with. It meant that Goku, despite being ten years old was able to contend with and more often than not totally one-up Master Roshi and the villains he encountered. __________________

05-27-2008, 03:07 PM	#32
Lord of Joshelplex Sent to the cornfield Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Bird's Hill MB Posts: 4,055	I think DB INVENTED Shonen.

05-27-2008, 10:08 PM	#39
Lord of Joshelplex Sent to the cornfield Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Bird's Hill MB Posts: 4,055	Ya gotta admit though, Kenpachi's ultimate attack/power was pretty sweet.