Character Rehab

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Originally Posted by Mashirosen

You are aware that comics is a medium and not a genre, and that there are many serious, thoughtful, sophisticated comics out there that have nothing to do with dudes in spandex footie jammies kicking the crap out of each other? And I'm not just talking about freakin' Maus, either. It's like saying that film can't address weighty issues in an intellectually rich fashion because all movies are Wayans Brothers shit-and-tits "comedies". If your argument instead is that the medium itself can't sustain that kind of commentary, well, okay, you're kind of super mega ultra wrong, but that's outside the scope of this thread and you're welcome to start a new thread about it.

Anyway, so what would you do with Superman, Barrelpants?

Yes. I was talking specifically about superhero comics.
But I can address the other issue. Indeed their are political comics and they mostly share the same problem in that it is awfully difficult for them to maintain academic neutrality and to address problems of doubt, uncertainity and opposing views in a way that pure text can and indeed I would argue that the very existence of such comics is damaging to political consciousness as much as the comics with superheros fighting the Nazis were.

There is some degree of scope for political discussion in comics, yes, but that is extra weakened by the inherent fantastic nature of the presence of super beings which further dull the issue. And as these comics do already exist, I'm curious as to the need to transform the superhero genre into a political genre. It's not filling a gap and instead is removing something else.
If you want I can start another thread about this.

As for what I would do with Superman, I'm not entirely sure. The character doesn't really interest me that much. Actually there you go. I would give him a proper characterisation.
Because right now he is just sort of a force, an object that exists out there, an idea in the general. I would actually make him someone. Not sure who but I would do that. But I'm more of a modernist than a classicist so I wouldn't be suited to the topic of characterisation.

[Fifthfiend]

Originally Posted by Kurosen

Interestingly, taking the extremely long view, we'll be skirting this sort of thing with Robo eventually.

Originally Posted by Smarty McBarrelpants

There is a key difference between your idea and the way that Superman is at the moment (I haven't read a superman in a while so if I'm wrong on this feel free to correct me).
Superman at the moment is directly opposed to crazy supervillains. Yes there is politics present in superman but they are not portrayed in direct opposition to Superman. His efforts are fighting ridiculous, totally fantastic bad guys not real world things. This means the politics are less direct whereas in your plan they would be completely central. Making Superman's heroic actions be that he defeats evil politics make his conception as a superhero tied directly into his political view whereas currentely he is a superhero because he defeats world destroying villains.

As for the reason why I don't want politics in it. Because I can read politics in a lot of other places where it will be dealt with in a more sophisticated manner. Comics could easily become mired in political debate like so many other things but be less adept at presenting these issues than say literary debate. This would prevent comics from having any unique points of difference. I don't see why people would read comics when there would be a better form of political debate they could read. Currentely comics are escapist fantasies but by miring them in the real worldyou take away that aspect so all you are left with is a simplification of politics.
This idea would contribute to dumbing down of political debates. The media already does this and I wouldn't want another literary form doing this as well. And Superman beating up corrupt factory owners certainly dumbs down and trivialises complex political issues.

I mean yes Superman is political but currentely you can ignore it to a large extent as Superman's direct villains are supervillains and not opposing political ideas.

I'm probably missing something here but I just don't see the point. There is plenty of anti-establishment literature and films and newspapers already out there and they present themselves in a more sophisiticated way than comics ever could.

Your objection seems premised on the idea that society is neatly divided into two halves with one labeled POLITICS and one labeled NOT POLITICS and everything that agrees with accepted orthodoxy gets to call itself NOT POLITICS and be lulzy fun and everything that might disagree with such orthodoxy is POLITICS and oh so dull and dreary. While simultaneously dumbing down the INSTITUTION OF POLITICS which is apparently supposed to be dull and dreary so I shouldn't go trying to make it lulzy fun, lest I destroy the infinitely complex and fragile snowflakes of pure intellect with the hot seamy breath of the common man's stupidity.

It's a point of view I've never really understood or accepted because as far as I can see "politics" is sort of, well, inherently a part of every single human interaction and act of expression and storytelling. I would love for you to show me where our discourse isn't "dumbed down" by restricting whole media of storytelling to overmuscled UBERGUD versus UBEREIBAL caricatures that bear no relation to those concepts as actually experienced by human beings in the world, as opposed to trying to use that media to convey some kind of actual idea about things that are real.

Anyway I'm pretty sure at this point that Mashirosen's going to knife my eyes out for turning her fun pleasant Comics thread into another goddamn Discussion thread so I should probably cut myself off before I convince her to use something rusty. It's probably for the best that I didn't get around to my Wonder Woman reimagining. I'll close by saying that I actually get that as ideas go this one isn't for everybody as it's pretty far removed from what people tend to think of as superhero comics storytelling, I just figure if we're going to have a thread about reinventing comics characters then I might as well get into the hard bedrock of what we do with comics characters. Of course it's all just jerking off because the economic and social realities which I would have Superman contest are the same economic and social realities that make sure nobody is ever going to use Superman to contest them, so, well, there you go.

Still though, J'onn Jonnz as The Alien, that's solid gold, right?

EDIT: wow, ninja'd by a shitton

EDIT EDIT:

Originally Posted by Ihatemakingnames

I'm sure you hate manga

I've read like a hundred chapters' worth of Bleach.

I'm not saying I don't want to talk shit just that at this point I'm sure the God of Hypocrisy would manifest himself bodily and kick me in the junk.

Originally Posted by Ihatemakingnames

Not specific to a single character, but overall I'd want power reworking. For instance, Superman. He's strong enough where there's only about 10 people, several of which are probably himself, that would actually be a problem for him based on his powers. However, most comics don't end within 1 page, despite that being how long most challenges he faces would take to fix. I mostly want to see power consistency. I'm fine with god-like characters, as long as they only have problems from other god-like characters. This also applies in the opposite sense. Batman shouldn't be fighting Darksied and last longer than half a second before he is fleshy paste.

Yeah, I will throw in that part of my general Superman thing is that he's powered to the point where he can scarcely interact with the world, because he's so nigh-omnipotent that letting him actually do anything would lead inevitably to him doing pretty much everything, so all he can do is preside over humanity like a dispassionate god on Olympus, waiting for another diety to happen along and pick a fight.

Originally Posted by Kurosen

Interestingly, taking the extremely long view, we'll be skirting this sort of thing with Robo eventually.

It's not like half of Robo's adventures don't already happen because someone in the US Government dicks Robo into doing their dirty work.

[Mashirosen]

It's probably for the best that I didn't get around to my Wonder Woman reimagining.

If you don't want to post it here -- although y'oughta -- please PM me about it!

I'm not going after anyone with anything rusty for bringing a thoughtful digression into a fun pleasant Comics thread when, as you say, politics isn't only something you talk about but part of nearly everything we do. "What is conversation but a progressive set of improvisations on a theme?" is what I would say if I were a Jane Austen character or something, though preferably not in one of those empire-waisted dresses because they make people ask me when the baby's due.

Dang, there was something I was going to say about what I'd like to see someone try with Wolverine but I can't remember the gist of it right now.

[Fifthfiend]

Originally Posted by Mashirosen

If you don't want to post it here -- although y'oughta -- please PM me about it!

Mostly it's similar to the Superman thing except she fights for women's rights. Stopping abortion-clinic bombings, breaking up abusive relationships, beating up pharmacists who refuse to fill women's birth-control prescriptions, fighting the social forces that encourage dudes to treat women as outlets for their hostility towards society and their place in it, that kind of a thing. I actually don't like the concept that terribly much as it feels too much like "Superman.... but for women!!!1", but that's at least an improvement over the current "Superman.... but she's a woman!!!11 and she's hot and you could fuck her maybe."

I do tweak the backstory a bit in that Steve Trevor crashes on Themyscaria and Diana meets him and wants to know about this world where men and women live together and Steve's like actually for a lot of women it kind of sucks and so Diana goes to her mom and is like hey this guy just told me about how women get kicked around out in the world and we should do something about that! And Hippolyta's like yeah we all knew that already which is why we stay here and don't have anything to do with that because the Man's World sucks and is dumb. And Diana's like well it's sucky and dumb to just go letting things suck and be dumb so she ditches Themyscaria to go back with Steve Trevor and make the world a better place. I figure the rebellion angle gives her an excuse to spend less time farting around Themyscaria which as I said in the last thread I totally hate.

Generally it's not critical in that like I said I'd more like to see a focus on the purpose a superhero serves and de-emphasize the origin and personal issues and crap of the particular hero but in Wonder Woman's case I feel it's important as so much of her origin story has been so fucking stupid that someone needs to set one down for her that's servicably non-awful. It's either the stupid bondage-takes-her-powers thing or she's made out of clay I mean can we at least find a less obvious way to objectify a character than having her literally be an object?

there was something I was going to say about what I'd like to see someone try with Wolverine but I can't remember the gist of it right now.

Throw him into an atom smasher?

[Mirai Gen]

You misspelled "Brian Bendis."

Shit, I totally did.

S/B these days is closer to what I have in mind but it's still such a superguy humpfest all about Superman getting rid of a thing that kills Superman because that's bad for Superman but then the government's scared of Superman so Superman fights Supermonsters built to kill Superman by Superman's ex-girlfriend who's scared of Superman Superman Superman Superman Superman. Batman.

Eh okay yeah, fair point.

It just seems like the foundation of your rewrite of Supes is taking him out of the 'fighting things a hojillion times more powerful than he is therefore making him seem puny despite the fact that he can level Metropolis if he felt like it' and that's the main thing I like about Supes/Bats.

But yeah if we're going for the "KEHEHEHEH I'M FEELING VERY EVIL AND GREEDY TODAY" "STOP RIGHT THERE!" "OH CRAP IT'S SUPERMAN!" *SMACK SMACK SMACK* then yeah, Superman/Batman really isn't the same at all.

[Kaneda]

Would Social Justice Superman encounter any significant problems? I mean, him beating the shit out of some healthcare CEO would certainly be entertaining, but I can see it getting old.

I mean, it's Superman. Some Wall Mart manager exploiting illegal immigrants wouldn't be able to put up much of a fight.

[Archbio]

Still though, J'onn Jonnz as The Alien, that's solid gold, right?

Better than the similar thematic that's sometimes read into Superman, in any case.

[Mirai Gen]

Some Wall Mart manager exploiting illegal immigrants wouldn't be able to put up much of a fight.

I'm pretty sure that's the entire idea. I could theorize but Fifth'll come along and explain his point just fine so I'll step aside.

[Breakthrough]

So do you also plan to write in someone who opposes the 'heroes' not out of malevolence, but because they impose their views on others with force? I would truly fear for my safety if there was a super powered person that might decide to cripple me cause I have pale skin and an extra appendage that supposedly makes my wages 17 cents* higher per hour.

*feel free to insert more recent/accurate statistic

edit: I apparently didn't scoll quite all the way down past fifth's last post

[EVILNess]

Spider-man: Sure, he has that famous "Parker" luck but honestly, give the guy a break. Also, while one of the more iconic things about Spider-man is that Peter Parker's sad existence makes him more of an everyman, it gets a little depressing when you think about the fact that every good thing that has ever happened to him has been taken away (Uncle Ben, Gwen Stacy, Ben Reilly, the baby, Mary Jane.). Thats not drama, that depressing.

Spider-man is honestly at his best when he is Spider-man. Why is that? Cause when hes out cracking wise as he beats up Mysterio or Doc Ock that we forget about Peter Parkers Pathetic life.

IN SHORT: Make Peter Parker less pathetic. Seriously, there is a line between drawing a parallel between a normal person's life and just being depressing to watch.

Super-Man: I probably would have had him stay dead for all the reasons stated. At least in the main universe, it would be interesting to see who would have stepped up.

Also, I think a less powerful Superman would be awesome. I mean come on, he is the deus ex machina king of super heroes, he always is strong enough. Thats just me though, some people like him that way.

Batman: I actually really like Batman the way he is, however I would like to see a little more character growth. Yeah, he has sort of created a make-shift foster family for himself over the years, with the Robins, Bat-Girl, Alfred but I kinda want him to really fall in love and let someone in close. It seems like his character growth has kinda stalled since he adopted Dick Grayson.

Batman/Superman: Why do these guys get along? I mean I can see some professional courtesy between the two, but they should never be friends. They represent two entirely different sides of the superhero coin. Powers versus Training, Public eye versus Criminal superstition. While both could be called vigilantes, Superman has the trust, and probably backing of most of the world, while Batman is supposed to be largely considered an urban legend or dangerous vigilante. FACT: Batman is too god-damned paranoid to ever trust an indestructible, super fast, super smart, alien. FACT: Every time the two have fought, Batman has won.(Not really relevant, just thought I should point it out )

IN SHORT: Superman and Batman's relationship should extend to no more than professional courtesy. MAYBE THAT.