Character Rehab - Page 7

01d55 · 07-11-2008, 06:14 PM

Oh hey, one big thing I'd change about Batman is how the detective work is portrayed, because the way it's typically done in Batman is goddamn bullshit. There are two forms: The Sherlock Holmes bullshit, where Batman puts together a bunch of obscure facts and comes to a conclusion and he knows for sure he is right with no further investigation necessary, and the Jack Bauer bullshit, where he beats people up and dangles them off a rooftop until they Tell Him What He Needs To Know. They're both essentially forms of Deus Ex Machina and are crap.

The way it should be is the way L did it in Death Note, where your genius detective character jumps to the right conclusion and isn't sure, so he devises a way to test his conclusion and hey even once in a while it turns out he's wrong and has to devise a new theory.

Mashirosen · 07-11-2008, 06:38 PM

I think I'd prefer the Jonathan Creek way, where Batman is an anorak-clad social reject who lives in a windmill and delivers the denouement by gathering everyone in a room and saying "It's quite simple, really" in that special smug nerd tone of voice. Or the Nero Wolfe way, where he's too fat to leave the house and shouts "PFUI" or "FLUMMERY" at people until they crack, at which point Babs grabs them by the ankles and drags them out into the impeccably appointed foyer to make with the chin music until the cops arrive.

Archbio · 07-11-2008, 08:54 PM

Quote:

The Sherlock Holmes bullshit, where Batman puts together a bunch of obscure facts and comes to a conclusion and he knows for sure he is right with no further investigation necessary

I see your point, but I don't think that's fair to Sherlock Holmes himself. From what I remember of the pre-Final Problem Holmes stories, there was some amount of legwork implied to occur after Holmes guesses at the solution. Which is why Mycroft Holmes isn't a detective.

Mirai Gen · 07-12-2008, 01:41 AM

Original Holmes didn't do that, but his successor legacy of knockoffs and copies have done it almost habitually.

But yeah, I prefer it when Batman just has some internal monologue where he thinks "Okay...this and this...hmm, I think I need to check something." And he's not a detective because he knows everything from crazy-small tidbits, but just because he notices things that could slip by a lesser cop.

The more writers get ahold of Batman and Superman the more they just throw their real selves out the window in favor of showing you just how powerful and talented and blah blah blah they are.

Archbio · 07-12-2008, 02:05 AM

Quote:

Original Holmes didn't do that, but his successor legacy of knockoffs and copies have done it almost habitually.

And Holmes himself, no doubt. I mean, as a public domain character, as a shadow of how he was originally portrayed. In fact, he could probably be thought to need character rehab of a sort.

Mirai Gen · 07-12-2008, 02:31 AM

Wasn't there some sort of crazy futuristic Sherlock Holmes cartoon they had for a while, where he basically spent like half an hour looking at clues that made no sense and then by the end he's like "Oh, its a basilisk human hybrid with a lightsaber hired as a hitman from cyborgs living in the sewers. I knew that half the episode ago."

And he even had some sort of robo-thug Watson or something.

I mean it'd have been totally great if the sci-fi setting hadn't totally raped any chance that the viewer could use the conclusions himself.

Archbio · 07-12-2008, 03:35 AM

Quote:

And he even had some sort of robo-thug Watson or something.

I'm going to bet he still had that stupid deerstalker cap thing going on.

That's what I'd suggest to any future use of the character, futuristic or otherwise: no deerstalker cap. Even if it's in the middle of Victorian era rural England.

No. Deerstalker.

The magnifying glass thing isn't helping either. Is this off-topic?

Quote:

I mean it'd have been totally great if the sci-fi setting hadn't totally raped any chance that the viewer could use the conclusions himself.

Some of the original stories tended to that without any help, though.

Mirai Gen · 07-12-2008, 03:43 AM

Yeah but it's one thing to have a couple of conclusions that make sense according to your world based on evidence that a reasonable person could actually think up.

But there's no way you can tell me that the viewer could get in on the Scooby Do-isms when your antagonist that is unseen through 90% of the show was some sort of werewolf ninja using a lightsaber hired by lizardmen to kill hookers by condensing himself to fit into plumbing system of a brothel for robots or something.

I'm not saying it happened but you understand why it doesn't make for good Holmesisms.

Truce · 07-12-2008, 04:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mirai Gen

Wasn't there some sort of crazy futuristic Sherlock Holmes cartoon they had for a while, where he basically spent like half an hour looking at clues that made no sense and then by the end he's like "Oh, its a basilisk human hybrid with a lightsaber hired as a hitman from cyborgs living in the sewers. I knew that half the episode ago."

And he even had some sort of robo-thug Watson or something.

I mean it'd have been totally great if the sci-fi setting hadn't totally raped any chance that the viewer could use the conclusions himself.

Sherlock Holmes in the 22nd Century.

If I recall correctly, it aired around the same time as Spiderman Unlimited, which was Spiderman in the future. Only instead of the future it was the Earth from another dimension where animals ruled and were led by a group of jackass paladins. The less said about it, the better.

Mashirosen · 07-13-2008, 02:16 PM

Quote:

I'm going to bet he still had that stupid deerstalker cap thing going on.

That's what I'd suggest to any future use of the character, futuristic or otherwise: no deerstalker cap. Even if it's in the middle of Victorian era rural England.

No. Deerstalker.

The magnifying glass thing isn't helping either. Is this off-topic?

Only in the sense that you're objectively wrong, but I'll let it slide if you'll agree that he can keep the coke habit later treated by Freud.

07-11-2008, 06:38 PM	#62
Mashirosen Watch closely! Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Imaginary tomorrowland Posts: 1,855	I think I'd prefer the Jonathan Creek way, where Batman is an anorak-clad social reject who lives in a windmill and delivers the denouement by gathering everyone in a room and saying "It's quite simple, really" in that special smug nerd tone of voice. Or the Nero Wolfe way, where he's too fat to leave the house and shouts "PFUI" or "FLUMMERY" at people until they crack, at which point Babs grabs them by the ankles and drags them out into the impeccably appointed foyer to make with the chin music until the cops arrive. __________________ "Remember how we all thought the Jedi were, well, Space Knights of the Round Table? Well, as it turns out, they're a bunch of self-righteous virgins who kidnap kids to replenish their numbers."

07-12-2008, 01:41 AM	#64
Mirai Gen We are Geth. Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 14,032	Original Holmes didn't do that, but his successor legacy of knockoffs and copies have done it almost habitually. But yeah, I prefer it when Batman just has some internal monologue where he thinks "Okay...this and this...hmm, I think I need to check something." And he's not a detective because he knows everything from crazy-small tidbits, but just because he notices things that could slip by a lesser cop. The more writers get ahold of Batman and Superman the more they just throw their real selves out the window in favor of showing you just how powerful and talented and blah blah blah they are. __________________

07-12-2008, 02:31 AM	#66
Mirai Gen We are Geth. Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 14,032	Wasn't there some sort of crazy futuristic Sherlock Holmes cartoon they had for a while, where he basically spent like half an hour looking at clues that made no sense and then by the end he's like "Oh, its a basilisk human hybrid with a lightsaber hired as a hitman from cyborgs living in the sewers. I knew that half the episode ago." And he even had some sort of robo-thug Watson or something. I mean it'd have been totally great if the sci-fi setting hadn't totally raped any chance that the viewer could use the conclusions himself. __________________

07-12-2008, 03:43 AM	#68
Mirai Gen We are Geth. Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 14,032	Yeah but it's one thing to have a couple of conclusions that make sense according to your world based on evidence that a reasonable person could actually think up. But there's no way you can tell me that the viewer could get in on the Scooby Do-isms when your antagonist that is unseen through 90% of the show was some sort of werewolf ninja using a lightsaber hired by lizardmen to kill hookers by condensing himself to fit into plumbing system of a brothel for robots or something. I'm not saying it happened but you understand why it doesn't make for good Holmesisms. __________________

07-11-2008, 06:14 PM	#61
01d55 Not 55 years old. Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 2,098	Oh hey, one big thing I'd change about Batman is how the detective work is portrayed, because the way it's typically done in Batman is goddamn bullshit. There are two forms: The Sherlock Holmes bullshit, where Batman puts together a bunch of obscure facts and comes to a conclusion and he knows for sure he is right with no further investigation necessary, and the Jack Bauer bullshit, where he beats people up and dangles them off a rooftop until they Tell Him What He Needs To Know. They're both essentially forms of Deus Ex Machina and are crap. The way it should be is the way L did it in Death Note, where your genius detective character jumps to the right conclusion and isn't sure, so he devises a way to test his conclusion and hey even once in a while it turns out he's wrong and has to devise a new theory.