Geneva Conventions outdated?

[Dante]

The only thing I am thankful to the Geneva Convention for is that it means that I'm not supposed to be targeted in wartime.

Of course, in wartime the enemy wil probably say "Shoot the fool with the red cross on him!"

Life is teh suck.

[Lucas]

the entire 72 virgins thing isn't part of the koran. there's some support for it, but seeing how the koran explains the afterlife much better than christianity or judaism do in their text, the diversion is really uncanon. not to mention that in islam the critical "event" is the book itself (while buddism has the buddahood, christianity has the resurrection, etc.).

This is where geneva becomes outdated

uh, wrong. you haven't given any reason for geneva's antiquity status apart from the fact that the army is fighting against a guerilla force.

what do you do when the enemy is shooting rocket propeled grenades at you while holding a human shield in front of him? you may be willing to let yourself die so you dont have to possibly kill that innocent, but will you also let your innocent buddies die? how do you take out anti aircraft guns and military bases that are embedded in civilian neighborhoods? enemies who hide and store weapons in mosques?

what do you do when the enemy has tanks? when the enemy can swoop in at any time and unleash a salvo of rockets from a gunship? what do you do when an enemy has enough firepower to completely wipe a country off the map? what do you do? what do you do when your enemies don't have qualms about abusing you if you get caught, or if they don't mind torturing your family to get you to talk?

seems to me that krylo's right. the military isn't designed for this, and i'll go even farther in saying that it shouldn't be designed for this, but that'll require too much effort to elaborate on, and its not really on topic.

[pfcq]

Is it me or are you takeing this "Poor innocent iraqi" thing a bit far? I mean shoot I don't know you and like to think of my self as an open minded guy (most of the time anyway) but dude, tell me what do you think when a G.I. gets killed over here, that the guy deserved it? sounds like it to me and I pray im wrong. Aright I get it your anti war and whatnot. Check. And you feel real bad that these guys cant stand toe to toe with us in a real fight right? Tell me hero, how bout we hook up the bad guys with tanks and airplans and guns and whatnot and just have em kill us by the hundreds like we've been doing, will that make you stop your bitchin? I showed this thread to some buddies of mine and let me tell ya, they all think your a jackass, but hay thats why I'm over here right? To defend your freedom of being a jackass. Cool whatever, I admit I ant the most sympathic person of all time, and ya more an likely I've managed to put my foot in my mouth a few times but dude, you take the cake. Oh and one more thing, if ya think that once I kill someone means that then I'll know what war is like, your sadly mistaken cause I already know. To date I have had 3 friends and real Americans KIA. But that doesn't count right?

This we'll defend

[Toastburner B]

pfcq, I just want to tell you that I have the utmost respect for anyone in the military. You guys have to live with stuff I know for a fact I'd never be able to live with.

Also...I suppose to a certain extent you can't really blame everyone for the, as you phrase it, "poor iraqi" thing. You have to remember, the only news we get here is either "another GI died today" or "Iraqi's claiming coalition troops kill x number of civilians" or "Coalition troops destroyed such and such." We're being force-fed the negative stuff.

Oh...and for the guy who a long time ago said that the enemy uses toture but no one cares, or something to that extent, I believe he was trying to make the point of people only focus on what we do.

For example: Yes, the guys in the prision (I'm not even going to try to spell it) did horrible crap that was wrong. In case you hadn't noticed, they are being punished for it. However, that is always the first thing you hear in the media. "More scandal pictures show up" or whatnot.

Meanwhile, at the same time, terrorist capture an american contractor (which is to say, civillian), and decapitate him over the internet. Why? Simple...he was an American.

Was the news outraged? Was it on the front page?! No...it was the third story on the news that day...behind the prison scandel.

I'd like to pose a question to they guys say "we can't make war on terrorism because its an organization and idea, not a country."

What the freakin' heck are we suppose to do, then? Just sit here like nice little targets and allow ourselves to get blown up. These guys would kill you, your family, and everyone you know if they could.

The point is, they've been warring against us for decades...it just took a 9/11 to wake us up to it. The sad thing is that we are forgetting again. We went from a country united by an act of war to having a comission trying to find out who missed what so we can have an offical scape-goat.

Is the Geneva convention outdated? I don't know. I might be. Back when it was written, no one even thought about all the crap that was happening. Warfare has evolved from big armies fighting it out to small groups fighting in cities and other kinds of enclosed areas, where all the technology in the world is worthless. Fighter was a defined term: a person in the other uniform. But what do you do when you don't know who is trying to kill you until they are firing at you from a crowd? Or from on top of a mosque they consider holy? Everyone is condemning us for firing at holy places, but no one seems to notice that we are just returning fire.

No. War is not pretty. Its a horrible, ugly thing I hope I never have to experince. But sometimes you have to hit back. Yes, we are hitting back. We've been getting knocked around by these guys (i.e.: The terrorist) for years. Embassies blown up. Barracks attacked. The U.S.S. Cole, and we've just sat here and said "Oh...that wasn't every nice."

What would I do if a guy fired at me from a crowd? I don't honestly know. I hope I never have to find out. But I can almost guarentee you I wouldn't just sit there and let him blow one of my friends away just because he's being a coward. Just because you're in uniform doesn't make you any less innocent than the crowd. Just because he's in a uniform doesn't make him as human as the other guy, so why should he die and the other person shouldn't?

As for the law issue...that's iffy. In a perfect world, we'd be able to live the letter of the Geneva Convention and walk away victorious and with limited casulaties, both military and civilian. But, as it is sadly clear, we don't. Sometimes, for the greater good, you must stray. For example: Say our a cop. You chase down a mass murder, evil himself. He kills for the pure joy of it. You finally get him in a corner, he can't escape. However, you know he has enough money to buy the best lawyer there is, and you've caught him four or five times before, and they've let him out again on technicalites. He's killed again. Dozens. Hundreds. You know for a fact he'd kill again, and you also know for a fact he'll get out of prison again on appeal or something. What do you do? Take him in because it's the law? Take him out before he can hurt anyone else? See...it's not always cut and dry. There is no "line". Sometimes, all you have is the two evils...and one may not be lesser than the other.

Well...that's enough crap from me. Thank you for taking the time to listen to me on my soapbox.

[Omega Mage Zero]

Originally Posted by pfcq

I showed this thread to some buddies of mine and let me tell ya, they all think your a jackass, but hay thats why I'm over here right? To defend your freedom of being a jackass. Cool whatever, I admit I ant the most sympathic person of all time, and ya more an likely I've managed to put my foot in my mouth a few times but dude, you take the cake. Oh and one more thing, if ya think that once I kill someone means that then I'll know what war is like, your sadly mistaken cause I already know. To date I have had 3 friends and real Americans KIA. But that doesn't count right?

This we'll defend

You really think you're over there to defend America? According to your post, you're just fighting to defend yourself. You don't seem to give a shit for any of the Iraqi people. Why are you there if not to help them? They didn't attack us. Iraq had no connection to Al Qaeda. You're just there because you were put there, a young man in a bad situation he didn't create.

It's terrible that you've lost three friends, the real tragedy is that they died for nothing. No war is "right" or "good" in my opinion, but this war makes even less sense than most.

[Toastburner B]

Hmm...so you believe that there is a peaceful solution for everything? War is never needed?

My mom came up with this example: There's a protest over the war. I go up to someone who has a sign "Violence never works" or some-such. I ask him if he really believes what the sign is saying.

In the middle of the answer, I punch in him in the face.

Now, he's going to be ticked at me. But I stop and say "Ah! Violence is never a solution!"

To prove his point, he'll agree with me.

I hit him again.

Lather, rinse, repeat until one of two things happen.

1)He hits me back, at which point I stop doing it becaue I get hurt. It's only fun to hit people when you're not getting hit back. Thus, I prove the point that sometimes violence is the only solution.

2) He falls over in a bloody plup after I hit him alot. I move on to the next guy, and the next guy after that until someone finally hits me.

You see? Yes, in a perfect world, war would never had to happen.

Unfortunately, the world is nowhere near perfect. As such, we were faced with a choice: Do nothing. Wait for the next attack, and the attack after that. With each strike, the foe becomes bolder, the attacks more open, the cost higher.

Or two: We hit back. We show the heartless sons of cowards the cost of their actions.


As for the "Iraq didn't attack us" thing. I suppose that means we should of just fought Japan in WWII. After all, Germany didn't attack us. Does that mean that all the men and women who died fighting Germany in WWII died "for nothing?" After all...wouldn't Hitler been happy with all of Europe, Russia, and Africa? Why the heck did we fight him for?

I suppose we should of waited until Saddam did have WDMs, and blew Kuwait or Israel off the map. Then we'll be justified, right?Truth be told, we should of gone in and gotten him at the end of Desert Storm.

One final thing: If they ever do find WMDs in Iraq, it will be funny to see how many people switch sides overnight. Yeah, yeah. There's the whole "Well, we would of found them by now" thing. I'm just saying it would be funny.

Sorry if I come off as harsh or cold or anything like that...I just hate when a person gets ganged up on. Especially when its people like me, who sit in front of a computer in a nice air-conditioned house or school ripping on a person in the middle of a warzone, trying to convince him that what he's fighting for is pointless.

[pfcq]

"You really think you're over there to defend America? According to your post, you're just fighting to defend yourself. You don't seem to give a shit for any of the Iraqi people. Why are you there if not to help them? They didn't attack us. Iraq had no connection to Al Qaeda. You're just there because you were put there, a young man in a bad situation he didn't create.

It's terrible that you've lost three friends, the real tragedy is that they died for nothing. No war is "right" or "good" in my opinion, but this war makes even less sense than most."

Died for nothing?!?!?! NOTHING! you scumbag I pray I never find you at your worthless job flipping burgers to pay for your weed cause if I do the things I have planed to do to you have yet to be named. You have NO RIGHt to judge them. You have no FUCKIN clue what the FUCK its like to be in a warzone. The men and women who die EACH AND EVERY DAY are heros. You will never know the glory and horror of seeing battle joined. You will never understand the Honor of knowing that at the end of every day you may have saved someones life, or given hope to someone who had none. I don't fight for myself you selfish little man, I don't fight for you, Bush, the iraqi people or anyone else. The only reason, THE ONLY reason I go into harms way, why anyone goes into harms way is for the person to the right and left of them. Thanks Omega, your hateful and ignorent post reminded me of why I joined the army in the first place.

Proud to serve.
Hooah

[Omega Mage Zero]

[QUOTE=pfcq
Died for nothing?!?!?! NOTHING! you scumbag I pray I never find you at your worthless job flipping burgers to pay for your weed cause if I do the things I have planed to do to you have yet to be named. You have NO RIGHt to judge them. You have no FUCKIN clue what the FUCK its like to be in a warzone. The men and women who die EACH AND EVERY DAY are heros. You will never know the glory and horror of seeing battle joined. You will never understand the Honor of knowing that at the end of every day you may have saved someones life, or given hope to someone who had none. I don't fight for myself you selfish little man, I don't fight for you, Bush, the iraqi people or anyone else. The only reason, THE ONLY reason I go into harms way, why anyone goes into harms way is for the person to the right and left of them. Thanks Omega, your hateful and ignorent post reminded me of why I joined the army in the first place.

Proud to serve.
Hooah[/QUOTE]

Actually, I'm a teacher. Disturbing isn't it. I don't do drugs either. Hell, I don't even drink. Save you knee-jerk self-righteous posturing for someone who would be impressed by it.

You are SENT into harm's way. The same as the person to the right and left of you. Is that why you're in Iraq, for the honor of fighting and dying "for the person to the right and left of you"? Try to penetrate that mindless brainwashing(Hooah,indeed) and THINK. Why are you there?

BTW, I never said you were selfish, I don't know where you got that. And I don't see how I was being hateful or ignorant. Ignorant maybe, as I've never been in the military, but hateful? Two high school friends of mine returned from Iraq earlier this year, and they are very disillusioned with the military and this war. Maybe you can't afford to do too much questioning while you're there, you have to deal with the reality of the situation, not the causes.

Just because I question why we're at war, doesn't mean I'm anti-US or it's troops. I didn't want them in harm's way in the first place. I don't want you in danger now. Nor do I want Iraqi lives lost. Believe it or not, I think their lives also have value. It's strange that you think the people willing to endanger your life are the ones with your best interest at heart. And the people who think you shouldn't be at risk you lash out at and call ignorant, selfish, and hateful.

[GatoFiero]

Hey! Let’s get rid of the Geneva Conventions!!! Then we won't have to bother with that whole war thing because we can just drop nukes on 'em! I mean think about it, terrorist bombing in Baghdad? Nuke the city! Iran's shipping terrorists into Iraq? Nuke Iran to cut off the source, then Iraq to get the terrorists. If nukes stop scaring the terrorists (because we all know that they are not afraid of death, they think they'll get 72 virgins when they go to heaven for crying out loud), then we'll use chemical and biological weapons to maim them without killing them. Imagine it, hordes of blind, terribly scared individuals wandering about, a sort of mobile advertisement that the US will do horrible things to you if you threaten our citizens or worse...our business interests!

*goes off to kill a raccoon with a bleach-ammonia mixture*

[Krylo]

I'd like to pose a question to they guys say "we can't make war on terrorism because its an organization and idea, not a country."

What the freakin' heck are we suppose to do, then? Just sit here like nice little targets and allow ourselves to get blown up. These guys would kill you, your family, and everyone you know if they could.

The point is, they've been warring against us for decades...it just took a 9/11 to wake us up to it. The sad thing is that we are forgetting again. We went from a country united by an act of war to having a comission trying to find out who missed what so we can have an offical scape-goat.

The only way you're going to get rid of terrorism is to remove the people from power in countries like Syria and Saudi Arabia who protect terrorist organizations, and then rebuild those countries, effectively, with effective police forces and investigation teams. And, further, we have to do these things after getting enough proof that these countries are harboring terrorists to get the international community behind us, or we're going to create ten more terrorists in the act of removing one.

The first part of that our millitary can do. The first part of that can work very well under the geneva convention. However, the investigation and police work required to actually catch these terrorists is NOT something our military is designed and trained for, and, therefore, isn't something it should be doing.

If our military isn't doing it, it's not a war. That's all I'm saying.

Gee. Look at that. I already answered your question.

Hmm...so you believe that there is a peaceful solution for everything? War is never needed?

My mom came up with this example: There's a protest over the war. I go up to someone who has a sign "Violence never works" or some-such. I ask him if he really believes what the sign is saying.

In the middle of the answer, I punch in him in the face.

Now, he's going to be ticked at me. But I stop and say "Ah! Violence is never a solution!"

To prove his point, he'll agree with me.

I hit him again.

Lather, rinse, repeat until one of two things happen.

1)He hits me back, at which point I stop doing it becaue I get hurt. It's only fun to hit people when you're not getting hit back. Thus, I prove the point that sometimes violence is the only solution.

2) He falls over in a bloody plup after I hit him alot. I move on to the next guy, and the next guy after that until someone finally hits me.

You see? Yes, in a perfect world, war would never had to happen.

Unfortunately, the world is nowhere near perfect. As such, we were faced with a choice: Do nothing. Wait for the next attack, and the attack after that. With each strike, the foe becomes bolder, the attacks more open, the cost higher.

Or two: We hit back. We show the heartless sons of cowards the cost of their actions.


As for the "Iraq didn't attack us" thing. I suppose that means we should of just fought Japan in WWII. After all, Germany didn't attack us. Does that mean that all the men and women who died fighting Germany in WWII died "for nothing?" After all...wouldn't Hitler been happy with all of Europe, Russia, and Africa? Why the heck did we fight him for?

I suppose we should of waited until Saddam did have WDMs, and blew Kuwait or Israel off the map. Then we'll be justified, right?Truth be told, we should of gone in and gotten him at the end of Desert Storm.

One final thing: If they ever do find WMDs in Iraq, it will be funny to see how many people switch sides overnight. Yeah, yeah. There's the whole "Well, we would of found them by now" thing. I'm just saying it would be funny.

Sorry if I come off as harsh or cold or anything like that...I just hate when a person gets ganged up on. Especially when its people like me, who sit in front of a computer in a nice air-conditioned house or school ripping on a person in the middle of a warzone, trying to convince him that what he's fighting for is pointless.

There's one itty bitty fact that makes ALL of this post fall apart.

Saddam and Iraq had NO connections to Al Qaeda and there is no proof that they had any intentions to attack us. In fact, Saddam and Osama hated each other. Osama probably still hate him... but Saddam can't hate much of anything these days.

So... if Iraq never attacked us, and had no intentions of attacking us, your whole "I hit you in the face so you should hit me back" comparison falls apart. They never hit us in the face. There's no reason for us to hit them back.