Iraq doesn't want us there...

[Viper Daimao]

how do you be ready for democracy? How does a man learn how do handle freedom without tasting it? What are they ready for? Monarchism is immoral. dictatorism is immoral. Communism is especially immoral. of all the forums of govt, democracy is the most moral/least immoral. I believe it was Churchill whosaid "...democracy is the worst form of Government except all those others..."

of course we're getting ahead of ourselves. the fact is the elections arent till 2005.

[Raerlynn]

Originally Posted by The Tortured one

Viper, I liked your post, and for the record I am pro-war on terror, but four battalions?! that's less then 2000 men! what are they gonna do, throw rocks at our tanks?

I just found it amusing that my military college can mass more troops than the entire state of Iran.

that'd make as much sense as Canada invading the U.S.

*COUGHCOUGH*Guerrila Tactics*COUGHCOUGH*Terrorist Attacks*COUGHCOUGH*

So yeah, about 2000 people, and if trained properly, they CAN take a country. It's just a matter of applying pressure, at the right place at the right time.

[dementedmongoose]

Look, the Iraqis could govern themselves, but only if we pull out. Not just "pop were gone" we'd have to do it slowly or else they'd collapse. This war started going downhill as soon as we ousted Saddam. before then, we were raking in Iraqi love. We captured Saddam, they wantd him, we wouldn't hand him over. Now Abdul ibn Iraqi hates every Joe Schmoe American. I say we kill saddam, and hand over his head. cut the rest of him up, and rain down his parts all over France. They claim we're "the worst thing to happen to the world" the worst thing to happen would be if Saddam had tried to go Hitler.

[Otaku Son]

Originally Posted by Raerlynn

*COUGHCOUGH*Guerrila Tactics*COUGHCOUGH*Terrorist Attacks*COUGHCOUGH*

So yeah, about 2000 people, and if trained properly, they CAN take a country. It's just a matter of applying pressure, at the right place at the right time.

Unfortunately, Iraqis can't shoot worth a damn. They spray their fire and hope to hit something. The heavy artillery are the al-Queda.

[Muffin Mage]

Of course, Iran and Pakistan and Saudi Arabia don't want us here.

Religious fanaticism is not good if you aren't what the religious fanatics like.

As to the topic at hand, I think that Iraq has gotten a France complex- glad for the liberators, but angry at the foreign defense helpers.

[JoeCB]

just so you know 4 battalions = 2800-3200 = 1 regement. roughly speaking.

and that mant trained trrops and do a lot of damage to civialns and unprepaired goverment foces. They couldnet take Iraq, but they could make Iran a bit bigger.

[Sky Warrior Bob]

Originally Posted by Otaku Son

Unfortunately, Iraqis can't shoot worth a damn. They spray their fire and hope to hit something. The heavy artillery are the al-Queda.

But they're dang swell at making those car bombs, aren't they? Look, don't underestimate the insurgents completely. Sure, they're only killing maybe a few of our troops a week, but it isn't like we're totally casualty free.

Also, the insurgents aren't the only people with a ammo problem...

http://www.kentucky.com/mld/heraldle...on/8858013.htm

Sky Warrior Bob

[Fifthfiend]

Unfortunately, Iraqis can't shoot worth a damn. They spray their fire and hope to hit something. The heavy artillery are the al-Queda.

By the by, is there any solid proof of AQ involvement in Iraq/info on how involved they are? So far all I've heard is bald assertions from admin officials, which frankly doesn't blow my skirt up. I think there was some kind of letter they said was from Zarqawi, I don't know how well substantiated that was.

There was a WashPo story back in April where the intel head of the 1st ID said something like 2% of fighters in Iraq are foreign, which is about the only thing resembling a solid number I've seen to that effect. The guy didn't specify Al Quaeda, either, so how many of them are part of that number I've not the least idea.

f there's better information out there, I'd like to know.

----------------

One point on the poll -- link to the full text here, by the by -- I seriously question how random a sample they're going to get in Iraq. At the beginning, the report notes that polling was done in Baghdad, Mosul, Diwaniyah, Hillah, and Baqubah -- it's certainly reasonable to assume that opinions might skew differently in, say, Najaf. The pollsters also note that refusals to take the poll were the highest they've seen yet (though no numbers on how many), so self-selection bias is bound to be a factor.

I'm hesitant to guess too much on which way this would have skewed answers... people in Fallujah would be bound to feel less safe, I guess, but maybe people in Najaf all think Sadr should just fuck right off. Grain of salt on all of it, is all I'm trying to get at.

--------------------

Also, the insurgents aren't the only people with a ammo problem...

http://www.kentucky.com/mld/heraldl...ion/8858013.htm

It's good for the economy?

[Sky Warrior Bob]

I remember reading a story eariler on, which stated that the insurgents didn't like Al Queda. Of course, doubtless that was based more on word of mouth than any solid facts.

At very least, I suspect that even if the insurgents don't agree 100% with Al Queda's goals, I'm sure they don't mind the help. Enemy of my enemy is my friend thinking, and all that. Still, once all is said & done, depending on the direction this war goes, Al Queda & the insurgents could always get on each other's bad side.

Plus, you're right not to lump all the foreign fighters all together, as back towards the begining of their involvement, I did read a report on how in sometimes it was a case by case basis, and there was no evidence of Al Queda involvement.

And I *WOULD* show you these articles too, but I can't find them, so you'll sadly have to take my word on this.

Sky Warrior Bob

[Omega Mage Zero]

Originally Posted by Viper Daimao

how do you be ready for democracy? How does a man learn how do handle freedom without tasting it? What are they ready for? Monarchism is immoral. dictatorism is immoral. Communism is especially immoral. of all the forums of govt, democracy is the most moral/least immoral. I believe it was Churchill whosaid "...democracy is the worst form of Government except all those others..."

of course we're getting ahead of ourselves. the fact is the elections arent till 2005.

You don't prepare a country for democracy by invading and occupying it. There were plenty of people in Iraq that were happy with Saddam, and many more who were at least willing to live with him. Iraqis had more freedom under him than many other countries in the region. Saddam didn't try to control every aspect of their lives like the Ayatollas of Iran or the Wahabis of Saudi Arabia do. Saddam actually kept AQ out of Iraq, the US has failed to do that.

Before someone jumps all over me, let me say that I agree that Hussein was a brutal dictator. He started wars that resulted in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people. He murdered and tortured his enemies, he oppressed and brutalized entire populations of Iraqis(the Shiites, the Kurds).

But...he was contained. America had him hemmed in and basically impotent. The northern third of the country(the Kurdish area) was under our control. His military was unable to rebuild after the first Persian Gulf War to be a threat to his neighbors. UN inspectors were touring the country. About every other year we carried out air strikes to keep him in line.

Now, were Iraqis thronging the streets begging America to come help them? No, most Iraqis hated the US because of the sanctions. We had some Iraqi exiles telling the admin what they wanted to hear to justify the invasion. Let's try to think back and remember the reasons given for the war. WMDs? They didn't have them anymore. Though Cheney STILL says they might turn up. The 9/11 Attacks? Absolutely no connection, Osama and Saddam hated each other.

As for oil; no I don't believe the idea was ever to go there and actually sieze it. One of the unofficial goals of the war was to install a America-friendly country there sitting on the second-largest reserves in the world. Then they would give special consideration to American companies and interests. I don't understand how the "stupid oil theory" is so stupid.

So what's left? Democracy? The good of the Iraqi people? How many Iraqis are dead now that wouldn't have been if we hadn't invaded? Over ten thousand. Hasn't been much to their benefit has it?

Consider this, what would have been the better situation? A contained Saddam? Or this sucking black hole of chaos that breeds hatred throughout the Muslim world and makes us look like fumbling imperialists to the rest?

No the Iraqis don't want us there. They didn't want us there before the war, they don't want us there now, and they won't come to America in the future and thank us.