Abortion: A Choice, Not Chore - Page 3

KefkaTaran · 07-13-2004, 08:26 PM

Krylo: Much as I might agree with you, I got to point one thing out. I think there's a flaw in your thinking on birth control/condom. I'm no math major, far from it, but from my understandings of percentage and chance...

Okay, so there's a 99% of birth control working or a 1 in 100 chance. That does NOT mean that 1 out of every 100 times using birth control will be a failure, because each use of birth control does not have a bearing on other times using birth control. Each time you use birth control is it's own SEPERATE 1 in 100 (or 1%) chance of failing. Understand what I'm saying? Becuase of this failures of condoms and birth control or going to happen a LOT less then 1 in 100. There's simply a 1 in 100 chance of it happening.

After consulting with a mathematician friend who was visiting (seriously!), he says this is all true. 1 in 100 uses of birth control will NOT in fact be a failure. The number of actual failures is much smaller.

Otherwise there'd prolly be many more accidental pregnancies.

Archbio · 07-13-2004, 08:27 PM

You can't have an abortion five minutes before birth. I don't remember what the upper limit is, but I think it was reasonable, altough late term abortions seem a bit morbid in my opinion (why wait several months?).

I thought orphanages everywhere were still getting plenty of business.

Krylo · 07-13-2004, 09:24 PM

Alright, Kefka, I'll accept that, mostly because I'm too lazy to look up odds, chances, and percentages/argue. Although I don't understand why they call it a one in one-hundred chance if it happens less than one in one-hundred times.

However, that'd still be a kid every 2-3 years. Or 1 out of 3 people using birth control properly every year.

Edit, because I don't want to spam the thread: Right. But 1% is 1/100, which is 1 in one hundred. So, here's the thing, if it's a 1 in 100 chance, shouldn't it happen 1 in 100 times you do it? How else would they get the numbers.

For instance, it's a 1 in 6 chance of rolling a 1 on a die, because if you roll the die 24 times, you're most likely to get each number rolling 4 times. It's not some randomly/arbitrarily decided thing.

They figure this out by taking everyone who does it correctly, and finding that, if, say there were 1000 of them, 10 of those people ended up pregnant. Or 1 out of every 100 of them.

How else would they do it?

Archbio · 07-13-2004, 09:28 PM

It's probability-talk. It's 1% chance every time. And not 1 out of every 100 time. Unless I'm not understanding this right.

Dona Maria · 07-13-2004, 09:37 PM

Krylo, I think you're being to fatalistic about the whole chances thing. Many women use the pill for years on end and can attest that it has worked 100% of the time. I think what you're trying to refer to is the Theory of Probability which would allow that, yes, at some point, for some one, it might not work as effectively as it should and an ova would be released. However, that doesn't immediatly mean a pregnancy. So, I think you lost that one...

As for me, I tried to stay away from this one, but I gave in to my little devil. I don't see abortion as an "option" for birth control because of the adverse psychological effects it has on the would-be mother. Forget about those, did we? Granted, there are some women that can go many times and come out fairly unscathed. However, I think people are forgetting that when the body is preparing itself for childbirth, it releases hormones up the wazoo (ok, so I'm not technical, whatever) which changes the woman quite dramatically. Enough at times that the woman in point would make Sybil look well adjusted. When you suddenly remove the catalyst for these changes, the body goes into a type of shock. Suddenly it doesn't the need all the hormones it's producing, and the mind goes into what I like to call "WHAT THE FUCK, I AM...I...*inane ramblings*". I'm sure I could properly label it if I took the time, but I thought that in the mean time I'd just leave it at something you could wrap your mind around. This state of WTFIAI** (<-- abbreviated, yay) causes mild to severe depression which is just a gateway to many other problems.

Chew on that for a bit, I need to eat before my stomach implodes. I'll edit in the rest later.

Otaku Son · 07-13-2004, 10:43 PM

Hold on, this procedure where the uterus is removed...
If the uterus is removed, then what happens with sex? You can't deposit the sperm in he actual blood of the woman, can you? And how d yo keep the blood from pouring out? And what about...Gyah!

Crodevillian Team · 07-14-2004, 12:34 AM

Quote:

If the uterus is removed, then what happens with sex? You can't deposit the sperm in he actual blood of the woman, can you? And how d yo keep the blood from pouring out? And what about...Gyah!

Well, there are various types of hysterectomies, but the common ones involve removing the upper part of the uterus, or the entire uterus including the cervix.

See, due to the marvel of modern medicine, we have managed to find methods of sealing surgical incisions. Thus, the woman is -not- left with a massive, bleeding wound in her lower abdomen. As for sex, having a hysterectomy does not make it impossible at all; the uterus (the womb) is removed, not the vagina, which leaves... well, enough room for, er, screwing around.

Quote:

This state of WTFIAI** (<-- abbreviated, yay) causes mild to severe depression which is just a gateway to many other problems.

But, this can also occur in women after giving birth, for the same reason; after months of hormonal extremes, the birth of the baby suddenly alters the body chemistry. This results in Post-partum depression. According to one study (link below), "the risk of of psychiatric hospitalization" for women increased seven-times during the three months after giving birth. And, "the risk of psychosis was 22 times higher than the prepregnancy rate."

While abortion increases the risk, actually giving birth to the child also increases the risk for depression and other problems. For this reason, I don't see the adverse psychological affects of abortion to be any cause to object to abortion on the whole. Both childbirth and abortion are extremely emotional and can lead to depression.

Source here.

Dona Maria · 07-14-2004, 01:02 AM

Quote:

While abortion increases the risk, actually giving birth to the child also increases the risk for depression and other problems. For this reason, I don't see the adverse psychological affects of abortion to be any cause to object to abortion on the whole. Both childbirth and abortion are extremely emotional and can lead to depression

OH! I See! Cuz, ya know, being female and all, I had NO idea about post-partum.

Sorry, I couldn't resist. Yes, I am aware of PPD, but the guilt/depression that follows an abortion, from what I've seen, is still worse. Now, I know you can pull up links about stories involving women that go crazy from PPD and drown their kids, but keep in mind that I can do the same about abortion.

The depression (et all) that follows an abortion often carries some of the greatest "what if"'s. The woman feels so guilty that some can never over-come thinking that maybe their decision wash too rash, and that they are now ultimately responsible for the death of their own child. Don't try to give me links saying the contrary, I've seen it first-hand, and it is the most heartbreaking experience to sit with a friend who's sobbing on my shoulder and assure them that they really didn't kill their child, even though in my own heart I think they did.

But! This isn't about that, and I do not wish to envoke the wrath of Mash by drifting off topic, especially on one such as this.

So my point: me no likey. And now I'll go to my corner.

Crodevillian Team · 07-14-2004, 01:30 AM

Quote:

OH! I See! Cuz, ya know, being female and all, I had NO idea about post-partum. Sorry, I couldn't resist.

Sorry; I realized even when I wrote that that it sounded conceited, but I wasn't speaking to you in particular, or trying to 'educate' you. There -are- guys on the forum, too. ;-) I know most people are quite aware of post-partum depression, and I assumed you were as well; I was simply addressing it because, just as some people are confused about what a hysterectomy entails, some may also not be aware of post-partum depression. I'm sorry if I sounded like I was talking down to you- that truly wasn't my intention.

Quote:

Don't try to give me links saying the contrary,

I'm not trying to disprove you, nor am I trying to say that abortion doesn't cause problems. I am fully aware of the emotional trauma that can come from abortion. It is an extremely difficult experience, I am certain, and I have the utmost sympathy for those who must deal with it.

Quote:

Now, I know you can pull up links about stories involving women that go crazy from PPD and drown their kids, but keep in mind that I can do the same about abortion.

I think the fact that both of us can bring up stories about the problems involved with childbirth and abortion sort of proves the point; childbirth and abortion are difficult, and can lead to depression and other problems.

My argument was never that abortion isn't hard or emotionally troubling. My argument is that, since both childbirth -and- abortion can be emotionally troubling, it doesn't make sense to me to object to one moreso than the other. Not all mothers who give birth experience post-partum depression, and not all women who choose abortion develop serious psychiatric problems. On the same note, the possibility exists that both abortion and childbirth -can- lead to problems. Again, that's my only argument with you- if both actions can have the same consequences, why object to abortion?

Quote:

assure them that they really didn't kill their child, even though in my own heart I think they did.

And the sole reason I brought up the previous argument was because I was under the impression that the only reason you objected to abortion was because of the risk of mental illness. I see now, though, that your objections are also on a deeper level, and I respect that.

Again, I apologize if it seemed as if I was talking down to you. But, sorry, Otaku: I really -was- talking down to you. (But in the playful, 'don't get mad I'm just kidding' sense. ;-)

Dona Maria · 07-14-2004, 02:08 AM

Quote:

My argument is that, since both childbirth -and- abortion can be emotionally troubling, it doesn't make sense to me to object to one moreso than the other.

Point taken, but with one, the outcome is a new life. So, I'm sure you can see why I lean towards one side over the other.

For some reason I think Mareg said it best "Life must be honored". If you get the game reference, then you're a nerd too! woot?

Quote:

Again, I apologize if it seemed as if I was talking down to you.

No worries hommie, and no, I didn't really think I was being taught. It's just my style of rhetoric that makes me come off as always offended, even though most of the time I'm a sarcastic little thing.

07-13-2004, 09:24 PM	#23
Krylo The Straightest Shota Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: It's a secret to everybody. Posts: 17,789	Alright, Kefka, I'll accept that, mostly because I'm too lazy to look up odds, chances, and percentages/argue. Although I don't understand why they call it a one in one-hundred chance if it happens less than one in one-hundred times. However, that'd still be a kid every 2-3 years. Or 1 out of 3 people using birth control properly every year. Edit, because I don't want to spam the thread: Right. But 1% is 1/100, which is 1 in one hundred. So, here's the thing, if it's a 1 in 100 chance, shouldn't it happen 1 in 100 times you do it? How else would they get the numbers. For instance, it's a 1 in 6 chance of rolling a 1 on a die, because if you roll the die 24 times, you're most likely to get each number rolling 4 times. It's not some randomly/arbitrarily decided thing. They figure this out by taking everyone who does it correctly, and finding that, if, say there were 1000 of them, 10 of those people ended up pregnant. Or 1 out of every 100 of them. How else would they do it? __________________ I am very tired. Last edited by Krylo; 07-13-2004 at 09:33 PM.

07-13-2004, 09:37 PM	#25
Dona Maria tastes like burning Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: somewhere orange Posts: 436	Krylo, I think you're being to fatalistic about the whole chances thing. Many women use the pill for years on end and can attest that it has worked 100% of the time. I think what you're trying to refer to is the Theory of Probability which would allow that, yes, at some point, for some one, it might not work as effectively as it should and an ova would be released. However, that doesn't immediatly mean a pregnancy. So, I think you lost that one... As for me, I tried to stay away from this one, but I gave in to my little devil. I don't see abortion as an "option" for birth control because of the adverse psychological effects it has on the would-be mother. Forget about those, did we? Granted, there are some women that can go many times and come out fairly unscathed. However, I think people are forgetting that when the body is preparing itself for childbirth, it releases hormones up the wazoo (ok, so I'm not technical, whatever) which changes the woman quite dramatically. Enough at times that the woman in point would make Sybil look well adjusted. When you suddenly remove the catalyst for these changes, the body goes into a type of shock. Suddenly it doesn't the need all the hormones it's producing, and the mind goes into what I like to call "WHAT THE FUCK, I AM...I...inane ramblings". I'm sure I could properly label it if I took the time, but I thought that in the mean time I'd just leave it at something you could wrap your mind around. This state of WTFIAI** (<-- abbreviated, yay) causes mild to severe depression which is just a gateway to many other problems. Chew on that for a bit, I need to eat before my stomach implodes. I'll edit in the rest later. __________________ Between Christopher Marlow and William Shakespeare: Will: I wrote you another sonnet. Chris: No! How many times have I told you: No more sonnets! How many is that anyway? Will: About a hundred

07-13-2004, 08:26 PM	#21
KefkaTaran Magikoopa Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 1,545	Krylo: Much as I might agree with you, I got to point one thing out. I think there's a flaw in your thinking on birth control/condom. I'm no math major, far from it, but from my understandings of percentage and chance... Okay, so there's a 99% of birth control working or a 1 in 100 chance. That does NOT mean that 1 out of every 100 times using birth control will be a failure, because each use of birth control does not have a bearing on other times using birth control. Each time you use birth control is it's own SEPERATE 1 in 100 (or 1%) chance of failing. Understand what I'm saying? Becuase of this failures of condoms and birth control or going to happen a LOT less then 1 in 100. There's simply a 1 in 100 chance of it happening. After consulting with a mathematician friend who was visiting (seriously!), he says this is all true. 1 in 100 uses of birth control will NOT in fact be a failure. The number of actual failures is much smaller. Otherwise there'd prolly be many more accidental pregnancies.

07-13-2004, 08:27 PM	#22
Archbio Data is Turned On Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 3,980	You can't have an abortion five minutes before birth. I don't remember what the upper limit is, but I think it was reasonable, altough late term abortions seem a bit morbid in my opinion (why wait several months?). I thought orphanages everywhere were still getting plenty of business.

07-13-2004, 09:28 PM	#24
Archbio Data is Turned On Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 3,980	It's probability-talk. It's 1% chance every time. And not 1 out of every 100 time. Unless I'm not understanding this right.

07-13-2004, 10:43 PM	#26
Otaku Son Sent to the cornfield Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 1,488	Hold on, this procedure where the uterus is removed... If the uterus is removed, then what happens with sex? You can't deposit the sperm in he actual blood of the woman, can you? And how d yo keep the blood from pouring out? And what about...Gyah!