Abortion: A Choice, Not Chore

[Mashirosen]

Don't try to give me links saying the contrary, I've seen it first-hand, and it is the most heartbreaking experience to sit with a friend who's sobbing on my shoulder and assure them that they really didn't kill their child, even though in my own heart I think they did.

Please understand that I don't mean any offense by saying this, but there is nothing that drives me crazier than the attitude my dad describes as "don't bother me with the facts, my mind is already made up". ;) I'm also not trying to invalidate your friends' experiences -- I'm sure a lot of women do have regrets about having abortions, and probably sometimes even to the extent of developing serious psychological problems. But anecdotal evidence is not fact, and your friends and women who suffer the same are not actually in the majority. It doesn't make their situation any less sad, or any less real, and it doesn't mean that abortion may not have been the wrong choice for them, but to suggest that that applies across the board to all women is just wrong.

I'm not trying to contradict you to start an argument, I just don't want people reading this discussion to get the impression that your friends' situations, although obviously very painful and very real, are the norm for women who abort, and therefore draw the conclusion that all abortions are likely to be equally as traumatic for all women. The evidence suggests that they're not.

[Dona Maria]

I'm not trying to contradict you to start an argument, I just don't want people reading this discussion to get the impression that your friends' situations, although obviously very painful and very real, are the norm for women who abort, and therefore draw the conclusion that all abortions are likely to be equally as traumatic for all women. The evidence suggests that they're not.

No worries there, I was just hoping to show the boys a side they might not have seen or considered. Never hurts to broaden one's horizons, yes? Peace outside, yo.

[EVILNess]

Abortion may or may not be wrong in your views, but we all have to do what we think is right and best. If you are against abortion good for you. If you are Pro-choice good for you too. Sure whats best for the baby is a good thing to consider but the ultimate concern should always be what is best for the mother.

[Nietz]

Well, mathemathics and statistics aside, I have to say I'm against abortion in most cases. I think abortion is essentially killing, and the whole pro-abortion point is to convince that it's not killing if it's a fetus still inside the uterus. Well, to me this sounds a lot like "a stab in the dark is a victimless crime" point. Just because it's still not a totally formed human, it doesn't makes the fetus/embryo less human. There are a lot of arguments in favor of abortion, but they all seen flawed to me. I'll try to expalin my viewpoints on them:

A woman has the right to decide what to do with her body.
I totally agree about that, but abortion is not only about the woman's body, it's much more about her child's body. And death certainly affects more someone's body than pregnancy.

An embryo is not actually a human being, just a few cells, not much different than a sperm and an ova.
Well, it is a genetically complete diploid human organism, already in a growing process that will continue for the next 20 or so years, only that the first 9 months of the process is developed inside the mother's womb, due to the person still being too fragile and defenseless to survive in the outside. If you want to decide a time, like the first three months, where abortion is OK, what would make it so wrong a week after and so right a week before?

Most of this unwanted children will have very unhappy lives. So they're better off not being born anyway.
A lot, and a BIG lot, of wanted children are also going to lead unhappy lives. And has anyone ever asked one of these unwanted and unhappy persons if they really think they would rather not have being born, or even if they would want to get killed rigth now so they wouldn't have to suffer the rest of their worthless lives? Would anyone be willing to bet their own lives in that are going to say yes? Because a lot of people are willing to bet the baby's life on this.

Abortion may be a though choice, but anyone should have the right to chose.
Except that the one to whom the result is going to thougher doesn't get asked. It doesn't seen fair to me that we should choose what is worse for them just because they can't really answer or even reason on the subject yet, since we know they are going to be against it if they could.

Finally, I said that I'm against abortions in most cases. There are some where I think it could be aceptable: In the case that the pregnancy endangers the woman (and consequently the baby), when the fetus has a disorder that won't allow him to live, like anicephalism, and maybe in the case of rape. But I think in the last case adoption should be a much better choice. And yes, there is always more qualified applicants to adopt a newborn baby than there are babies to adopt. Orphanages and foster homes are mostly for grown orphans or rejected children that nobody wants to adopt (sad but true).
I might have forgotten something, but that's pretty much my whole viewpoint on the subject.

[Toastburner B]

I agree with Nietz. While I am against abortion, there are times when there may be no other choice/it is the best choice. But still, it should only be considered if the situation is extreme (like what Nietz listed), and after the mother(and the father, if present) take time to examine all the options.

Since the rest of my thoughts on it are generally religious, y'all don't get to hear them, but you get the general idea.

[hawkboy204]

Originally Posted by Nietz

Most of this unwanted children will have very unhappy lives. So they're better off not being born anyway.
A lot, and a BIG lot, of wanted children are also going to lead unhappy lives. And has anyone ever asked one of these unwanted and unhappy persons if they really think they would rather not have being born, or even if they would want to get killed rigth now so they wouldn't have to suffer the rest of their worthless lives? Would anyone be willing to bet their own lives in that are going to say yes? Because a lot of people are willing to bet the baby's life on this.

Yes, but some of those wanted childern that lead unhappy lives kill themselves, though i know this doesn't help the argument for abortion and no one can decide before they are born if they are going to be unhappy, i just wanted to remind you about those unhappy people killing themselves.

Now to add my opinion to this thread. I am against outlawing abortion, its better to have hospitals preforming the operation than in an underground illegal clinic, the hospital is alot safer for women than the underground clinic. Also a hosiptal could recommend people for the women to talk to so she doesn't become depressed(if they dont already do this they should).

Also Im in favor of better education of people about sex, the choices they have before and after sex. That could reduce the number of unwanted pregencies. The education shouldn't be the "sex is evil" kind of education, that just gets us nowhere.

Well thats my opinion. Enjoy.

[Crodevillian Team]

If you want to decide a time, like the first three months, where abortion is OK, what would make it so wrong a week after and so right a week before?

The statistics say, though, that 88% of abortions occur within the first 6 to 12 weeks (the first trimester). If a baby is being aborted a week before birth, there's a good chance that it's because the mother is in danger of losing her own life.

and maybe in the case of rape.

I don't think there should be any 'maybe' about it: Rape victims should -always- have the option of abortion. I can't even imagine what it would be like for a kid to know (s)he was the child of a rapist.

It doesn't seen fair to me that we should choose what is worse for them just because they can't really answer or even reason on the subject yet, since we know they are going to be against it if they could.

But there's no alternative; we can't wait twenty years down the road, and say "Do you want to be aborted now?" Also, we -don't- "know" that they are going to be against it. A newly born child has little, if any, reasoning skills or concept of death- let alone a developing fetus in the first trimester. Even if we could ask them, there'd be no answer they could provide.

A lot, and a BIG lot, of wanted children are also going to lead unhappy lives. And has anyone ever asked one of these unwanted and unhappy persons if they really think they would rather not have being born, or even if they would want to get killed rigth now so they wouldn't have to suffer the rest of their worthless lives?

I'm not sure I understand this argument. Are you saying that, since many people are going to be unhappy with their lives anyway, we should not allow abortion... so they can go on to be unhappy?

But have you ever asked a pregnant fifteen year old how she's going to feel? In some of these cases, the child's going to be unhappy, and the mother/parents are going to be unhappy. That's more than one unhappy life. Unwanted pregnancies can bring serious complications to more than one individual. Consider the woman affected, the woman's family, the male and his family.

[LeefRyder]

Originally Posted by DonaMaria

OH! I See! Cuz, ya know, being female and all, I had NO idea about post-partum. Sorry, I couldn't resist. Yes, I am aware of PPD, but the guilt/depression that follows an abortion, from what I've seen, is still worse. Now, I know you can pull up links about stories involving women that go crazy from PPD and drown their kids, but keep in mind that I can do the same about abortion.

The depression (et all) that follows an abortion often carries some of the greatest "what if"'s. The woman feels so guilty that some can never over-come thinking that maybe their decision wash too rash, and that they are now ultimately responsible for the death of their own child. Don't try to give me links saying the contrary, I've seen it first-hand, and it is the most heartbreaking experience to sit with a friend who's sobbing on my shoulder and assure them that they really didn't kill their child, even though in my own heart I think they did.

I also try to stay away from this debate for the most part. It's been had on these forums before, and the older forums too. But I just wanted to throw out my own little bit because I'm a woman too and a mother, and someone whose lost a pregnancy, and had to have a termination because my health was at risk. Women who suffer from PPD or PASS(post abortion stress syndrome) are incredibly rare when you compare it to how many women give birth or have abortions. I agree with Mash, they are a minority. For the couple people still confused about a hysterectomy please for the love of fred read the website I linked to in my earlier post and educate yourself.

To be more on topic, Abortion may not, but should remain legal. Women should have full control over their reproductive organs. Sorry for those still saying the father should have a say. I agree it's messed up. However when men can carry a pregnancy to term in place of a woman, then perhaps I'll be more concerned.

It's all well and good to say what YOU believe to be wrong, but the same is not true for all people. This argument exists because science is limited us in that we do not know exactly when life starts and cannot define it, except by our own assertions and beliefs. I'm not opening the door for religious debate in saying this because I assure you that is why many abortion debates were closed in these forums before, however I would like to point out, that you should not be allowed to force your beliefs on someone else. Do not argue with me the rights of a fetus. Because to me they are not a person and as such have no rights.

I think some of this falls into the lines of, if you cannot regulate what you do with your own body, do you really trust your goverment to do it for you?

[Nietz]

The statistics say, though, that 88% of abortions occur within the first 6 to 12 weeks (the first trimester). If a baby is being aborted a week before pregnancy, there's a good chance that it's because the mother is in danger of losing her own life.

But my point is: What makes a 12 week abortion so much better than one in the 13th week, or in the 7th month, for that matter. And I don't really understand how there can be an abortion before the pregnancy. Maybe you meant before birth?

Rape victims should -always- have the option of abortion. I can't even imagine what it would be like for a kid to know (s)he was the child of a rapist.

I'm actually very reluctant about abortions due to rape, I really think adoption is a much better choice in these cases. Also because and adopted child doesn't have to know her biological mother was raped, nor do their adopting parents. In cases of rape, there's also the day-after pill, which will likely prevent conception if used after the sexual act.

A newly born child has little, if any, reasoning skills or concept of death- let alone a developing fetus in the first trimester. Even if we could ask them, there'd be no answer they could provide.

So, it would be right to kill a newborn? Or a child a few months old? My point is that the fact that they can't decide for themselves doesn't make it beter, but worse. We spend a lot of money keeping alive people in irrreversible comas or terminal diseases even though they have no perspective of life, or even awareness of their state (I'm not going to discuss euthanasis now though), but we are very quick to kill someone who still has a whole life before.

Are you saying that, since many people are going to be unhappy with their lives anyway, we should not allow abortion... so they can go on to be unhappy?

But there's no alternative; we can't wait twenty years down the road, and say "Do you want to be aborted now?" Also, we -don't- "know" that they are going to be against it.

I am saying that unhappines is a fact of life, and killing people before they are born because we think they will be unhappy is not going to make things better.
And the alternative is not to make an abortion. It was a rhetorical question anyway, it's obvious that even most unhappy people don't want to die, or they would've killed themselves already. And people that were born, even if they were unwanted, 20 years ago could be asked today, and I'm sure they won't agree to die now to prevent further suffering in life (most of them will probably be happy with their lives). But I never saw anyone doing this, all I hear is people using that argument to justify abortions that will make things better for them, even if it means denying someone of their whole life.

And I have, in fact, heard testimonials form young pregnant girls. Though it's right that an unwanted pregnancy can bring unhappines to both the child and the parents, my whole point against abortion is that I don't agree that it's right to kill one person in order to make others happy.

Do not argue with me the rights of a fetus. Because to me they are not a person and as such have no rights.

Well, to me they have, or should have. I doesn't make sense to me that one day before being born someone has absolutely no rights, and just after they leave the womb is that they star being people.

[LeefRyder]

they do not do abortions one day or one week before birth so that argument isn't really valid, in every state there are limitations to how far into a pregnancy they will perform an abortion UNLESS the mother's health is at risk. Could you please link me to where you get your information about women having an abortion one day before birth?