Versus Thread III: Return of the Versus

[Genkotsu Ikaru]

First off, the premise of "no magic" is worthless. Items, they'd have to put down their weapons to use. Magic would be far easier to use in battle. People want to talk about how Link would get stabbed while throwing a boulder? Think about what would happen if he tried to pull out a hookshot, or if Cloud wanted to pull out a grenade. Link, at least, has a shot at it, because he wouldn't be defenseless. Most of this debate has entirely overlooked his shield - a tragic mistake. Oops, have I gone off on a tangent already?

Anyway. Magic. Let's look at magic. Cloud has materia. Link has inherent magical abilities, augmented by the TriForce. Clear advantage: Link. Sure, there's some very powerful materia out there, and it gives Cloud an edge in versatility, but Link has the clear edge in power. The only way materia gives the same type of advantage Link has with magic is if you use certain combinations of materia that, while they work, are designed with game-breaking in mind. But primary point - Cloud has to carry his materia. Link has his magic inherently. Not only does this give Link better control over his abilities, he also doesn't have to carry anything. Catching Cloud without materia would be like slaughtering a kitten.

Anyway, for the sake of argument, let's just say Link wouldn't flashfry Cloud. We'll have a classic duel, sword vs. sword. Now, at the beginnings of their respective games, neither one had really held a sword before. But after Cloud's one game and Link's - let's say two, because the first two games actually were supposed to have continuity - they'll have learned a few things. Now, Cloud has been swinging around a large butter knife rather gracelessly throughout the game, relying on strength rather than technique to do damage. Link, on the other hand, is just as strong, but he actually uses a sword and shield. That's tricky, but he gets plenty of practice. The effectiveness of sword-and-shield combo cannot be denied. Now, in terms of strength and stamina, there's too many arguments both ways, so let's call them equal. That being the case, Link's sword-and-shield fighting gives him a clear advantage, and has likely made him the better swordsman in general. There's a chance that Cloud has developed the fighting tactics necessary to fight effectively against it, but I doubt it. First, there's no sword-and-shield users to practice with. Second, instead of tactical development, Cloud has to rearrange the furniture in his skull every five minutes. This doesn't really lend itself to spending time training for different tactics. Link, on the other hand, has plenty of practice fighting people with large weapons. So, in terms of swordsmanship, again, Link has the clear advantage.

So, in summary, Link has experience, swordsmanship, and magic going for him. Cloud, in contrast, has a Big Friggin Sword and Hippie Power (mako = "the power of the planet"). Link's probably gonna win this one.

[BitVyper]

I'd just like to add that Link had a lot more magic in Zelda II since it was mentioned.

Edit: Also, to respond to an earlier point. Perfectly ordinary people have been known to live through being impaled in the stomach, even the skull. Hell, getting eviserated in the stomach is considered one of the more painful ways to die because it takes so long even with a deep wound. In short, Cloud living through that really only means that the sword missed any vital organs, and he was too hepped up on anger and adrenalin to notice to pain.

[Genkotsu Ikaru]

Plus, it takes a real man to wear tights, yo.

[Terex4]

Also, the stretch of time that Link had to practice comes down to a few weeks, maybe a couple months, max, of him learning how to use the sword with no formal training what so ever.

Cloud spent years in the Shinra Military and then a few more years as a mercenary. He has FAR more sword experience than Link.

Granted Link hasn't practiced as long as Cloud, but you have to admit Link's no pushover in the melee department. He has taken on many many different types of enemies both melee and magic.

As far as Cloud's professional training goes, you're skills are only as good as they're taught to you and Shinra's soldiers were pushovers. I think the bulk of Cloud's skill came from independent learning, not his training.

Besides, you try being kicked around and fighting for your life while holding your breath AT THE BOTTOM OF THE OCEAN for twenty minutes.

No thanks, I had the underwater materia :p

Granted Cloud has grenades, but Link has bombs, and those aren't wooden. I'm sure one of his bombs would generate a fair amount of shrapnel if not for the game mechanics.

Anytime you see Link pull something amazing off, it's because YOU hit the right sequence of keys. In reality, someone with no training and no prior experience with a sword, like him, wouldn't have been able to do half the stuff some people can make him do with a sword. He'd be able to do what is generally needed to win. Hack and slash weaker enemies and get out of the way of their easily predictable attacks.

Technically, everytime I saw Cloud do anything amazing, I had pushed the attack button.......

This is turning out to be a pretty good match-up.....

[IHateMakingNames]

Originally Posted by Genkotsu Ikaru

Anyway. Magic. Let's look at magic. Cloud has materia. Link has inherent magical abilities, augmented by the TriForce.

Link has no magic. In every game after OoT (Which is the Link we happen to be using) Link gets his magic from the Great Fairy. And he gets spells from outside sources as well.

Sure, there's some very powerful materia out there, and it gives Cloud an edge in versatility, but Link has the clear edge in power.

How does Link have an edge in power? The best thing he's had is making a big orb of fire. Cloud can easily do giant explosions of fire, or ice, or lighting, or pure magic, or summoning gaint monsters to kill stuff, or be immortal (krylo posted the materia combo a page or two ago).

The only way materia gives the same type of advantage Link has with magic is if you use certain combinations of materia that, while they work, are designed with game-breaking in mind.

Even if you don't do materia combos, materia is still better then that crap Link gets. Much, much better.

But primary point - Cloud has to carry his materia. Link has his magic inherently. Not only does this give Link better control over his abilities, he also doesn't have to carry anything. Catching Cloud without materia would be like slaughtering a kitten.

Cloud's materia is socketed into his sword and armor (That thing on his shoulder I think). He doesn't have to carry anything, and it's equiped onto him. And again, Link doesn't have control over 'his' abilities, he got his magic from Faries and crystals (Dins Fire and such).



See, magic was taken out because Cloud easily wins with it.

Now, Cloud has been swinging around a large butter knife rather gracelessly throughout the game, relying on strength rather than technique to do damage.

Play Kingdom Hearts or watch some Advents Children clips, Cloud has skill. You can't base how he fights off of FFVII because it's turn based, it's just sit around, do an attack, then sit some more.

Link, on the other hand, is just as strong, but he actually uses a sword and shield.

Link is no where near as strong as Cloud. The Big Goron sword is much smaller then Cloud's Buster Sword, and Link needs two hands to swing it around. Cloud can spin his sword in the air with one hand.

That being the case, Link's sword-and-shield fighting gives him a clear advantage, and has likely made him the better swordsman in general.

Having a shield doesn't make Link a better swordmen in any way, at all. That makes no sense. It just means he uses a shield and a sword instead of just a sword.

There's a chance that Cloud has developed the fighting tactics necessary to fight effectively against it, but I doubt it.

Why is there merely a chance that Cloud has fighting tactics, while a little kid who was frozen is apparently a sword master? Cloud has been fighting longer then Link has and has seen more fighting.

First, there's no sword-and-shield users to practice with. Second, instead of tactical development, Cloud has to rearrange the furniture in his skull every five minutes. This doesn't really lend itself to spending time training for different tactics. Link, on the other hand, has plenty of practice fighting people with large weapons. So, in terms of swordsmanship, again, Link has the clear advantage.

Ok, so Clouds never fought a shield before (Though I'm almost certain there are monsters/people in FFVII with shields, but I'll ignore that). Cloud's swing would eaisly topple Link over if he tried to block anyway, since he is that much stronger, but again, I'll ignore that.

So Link can block, big deal. All that does is make the attacker bounce back a little. Cloud can easily regain himself before Link can attack him.

On the second note, Cloud had his memory fucked up once majorly, then a couple of spasms with Sephiroth. He has had lots of time to practice with his sword.

I see no advantage for either of them in these terms.

So, in summary, Link has experience, swordsmanship, and magic going for him. Cloud, in contrast, has a Big Friggin Sword and Hippie Power (mako = "the power of the planet"). Link's probably gonna win this one.

Link has experience, and he can use a sword. I'll give you that. As for magic, it's not even in this fight so it doesn't matter, but Cloud dominates Link in magic.

Cloud is stronger and faster then Link, due to that 'Hippie Power' (You forgot the Jenova Cells, which pump him up even more then the Mako). He has experience and he can use a sword.

[Genkotsu Ikaru]

Materia is for chumps. Every sucker in the world that picks it up can use it. Cloud has no inherent magic. Link does. Being a wizard, regardless of whether the current version of the character gets his abilities from a Great Fairy or whatever, automatically makes you better with magic than some jerk with magic items.

Size of the sword doesn't matter, in fantasy. Altered density and magical alteration of weight are standard assumptions.

Being good with a sword and shield is much, much trickier than being good with a two-handed sword. It's more complicated. Anybody can pick up a sword with two hands, and be able to swing it without hurting themselves. An inexperienced fighter with a sword and shield is going to be doing a lot of beating up their own arms.

How has Cloud seen more fighting than Link, especially with a sword? Link's games are massive. Even saying whichever version only has one game, that's still a lot more fighting that he has to go through than Cloud. And Cloud has a party. Link doesn't. Link's got the edge in experience. As for the backstory, Cloud was a Shinra soldier. He carried a rifle. Swords were still fairly new to him at the beginning of the game. If anything, Link had more background with a sword, because he grew up in a culture where the sword was the primary weapon, and he could pick up a few things. Cloud's military training was, by all evidence, likely limited to guns. If he had Basic Training level education with a sword, he's lucky to have survived. Being in the military myself destroyed any illusions that melee techniques taught by a firearm-oriented military are in any way effective.

Mentally, it's no contest. Link has to be a genius to make it through the games. We, as players, see and know a lot of things due to the nature of the games that Link would have no chance of knowing. Plus, he actually solves puzzles and navigates mazes worthy of the name. FFVII? Not so. The puzzles and mazes are lackluster. And then there's a question of willpower. Link is a consumate warrior. Never complains once. Cloud is a consumate whiner. His psyche's as stable as a one-legged midget on speed. When betting on the outcome of a battle, you just don't go with the trauma victim, people. It isn't a smart decision.

But in the end, it comes down to sheer swordsmanship. Even assuming that Cloud has somehow acquired the expertise required to move that giant slab of metal in a method that would be effective for one-on-one combat, Link will win. Why? Because he's good enough with the sword-and-shield combo that he'll take Cloud's hacking with good humor, then push it aside, creating an opening, and shove the Master Sword into Cloud's exposed upper chest.

I realize I'm talking with a crowd of FF fans. You think he's cool, because he's angsty, and therefore you think he's the greatest, most powerful thing ever. But objectively, against real, classic heroes like Link, there's no contest. Now, I'm a Final Fantasy fan myself. Unlike many of my peers, I actually enjoy all the numbered games that have had a significant American release. I, IV, VI, VII, VIII, IX, X, and XI. They have their faults, but I enjoy them. But I'm not going to insist that their heroes are somehow inherently better or more powerful than the less popular classic heroes that, logically, have it all over the snot-nosed newcomers.

[Dragonsbane]

all these statements about Link not having inherent magic...just because he learned his spells from someone else doesn't mean that anyone could learn/use them, a considerable difference from Cloud's materia.

the difference here is similar the difference between casting a spell and firing a wand, one requires skill and innate ability, the other doesn't.

Link keeps the edge in terms of magical ability.

[G.I.R.]

Has this one been done? I saw it somewhere else...(meaning on another forum)



Jedi vs X-Men.

More Specific:

Luke and Mara Skywalker, Anakin, Jaina and Jacen Solo vs the X-Men.

or

Yoda, Mace Windu, Obi-Wan, Anakin Skywalker(on the verge of Vader) vs X-Men

Or...

Darth Maul, Darth Vader and the Emperor vs Magneto and his evil mutants

[Krylo]

Materia is for chumps. Every sucker in the world that picks it up can use it. Cloud has no inherent magic. Link does. Being a wizard, regardless of whether the current version of the character gets his abilities from a Great Fairy or whatever, automatically makes you better with magic than some jerk with magic items.

Materia links someone directly to the knowledge of the life stream/the ancients who could use magic themselves.

Think of it this way: Materia isn't a magic item, it's magical knowledge that's been hardened into stone and it's possessor, well, possesses that knowledge.

If you really played FFVII as you said you have, you'd know this. And, even in Legend of Zelda II, The Adventure of Link, which is the game in which he had the absolute most magic, he had no where near the magical abilities or powers that any of the FF7 team did while using materia. In fact, all of his powers were duplicated by the materia, and then they had a bunch of more powerful ones as well.

AND they'd all have the same control as he, because it's all innate knowledge once they slide the materia into their armor and weapons (btw, minor nitpick, Cloud's wrist thing was the armor he kept the materia in).

Being good with a sword and shield is much, much trickier than being good with a two-handed sword. It's more complicated. Anybody can pick up a sword with two hands, and be able to swing it without hurting themselves. An inexperienced fighter with a sword and shield is going to be doing a lot of beating up their own arms.

Yes, but a shield is a SHITLOAD easier to parry with than a sword, and takes far less skill to become a master of. Let's compare it this way. Give someone a gun who has never seen or used one before. There's a pretty good chance they'll be shooting themselves before they figure out what they're doing, but it takes a hell of a lot less skill in the long run to learn to use a gun effectively.

The same thing goes for the shield/sword combo. You may beat yourself up a little bit when you first pick them up, but in the longterm, it's a lot easier to fight with a shield and sword than just a sword because you never have to learn how to parry with your sword, or do anything but attack from behind a slab of steel.

Using a two handed sword in one hand is quite a bit more difficult, skill wise, than using a shield and sword... once you've become acquainted with them. You not only have to be able to attack effectively, but also learn how to parry just as effectively with a much smaller surface, as well as learning to riposte, thrust, slash, reverse slashes, etc. all using a sword that is both heavy and ungainly. You try fighting with a seven solid metal rod held like a sword... now imagine it was about ten times as thick.

How has Cloud seen more fighting than Link, especially with a sword? Link's games are massive. Even saying whichever version only has one game, that's still a lot more fighting that he has to go through than Cloud. And Cloud has a party. Link doesn't. Link's got the edge in experience.

Link's games are far smaller than Cloud's one game. Maybe the two NES titles combined MIGHT equal it in length, AND those are the only two in which the same Link was used. In every other game it was a new/different Link, meaning that, at BEST, he's been through two adventures equal in length to Cloud's, with no training before hand.

Not to mention that Link was rarely up against more than one enemy at a time. His enemies came at him one each in most cases, and when they didn't he was forced to either hit and run or find a position they could only attack him one at a time in... OR rely on their own stupidity (crappy NES AI). Or, there were times when multiple extremely weak or predictable enemies attacked him at once, but for the most part enemies were far enough apart to engage in single combat.

Cloud's enemies attacked as solid units forcing him to take on 8 enemies, at times, to his group of four.

And, unlike Link, Cloud had military training before hand, as well as the Jenova cells and Mako energy.

As for the backstory, Cloud was a Shinra soldier. He carried a rifle. Swords were still fairly new to him at the beginning of the game. If anything, Link had more background with a sword, because he grew up in a culture where the sword was the primary weapon, and he could pick up a few things. Cloud's military training was, by all evidence, likely limited to guns. If he had Basic Training level education with a sword, he's lucky to have survived. Being in the military myself destroyed any illusions that melee techniques taught by a firearm-oriented military are in any way effective.

First off, Shinra was NOT a firearm-orientated military. Their two strongest military divisions were SOLDIER and the Turks. The Turks used whatever weapons they wanted. Some used firearms (Vincent), some used nightsticks (Reno) some used their bare hands (Rude and Elena). SOLDIER, on the other hand, all used swords, and they were the dominating force of the military.

Secondly, You DO realize that the very laws of society are altered if you've been trained as an army ranger, marine, navy seal, etc. etc. right? Yes, the grunts and standard infantry don't learn great melee techniques, but you go ahead and try to throw a punch at an army ranger if you think they aren't trained to deal with that with extreme effectiveness. Once you've been trained into one of the more highly trained divisions of the military you're no longer allowed to kill someone with your hands in self defense, because it's using excessive force to defend yourself with. And THAT's in a military that doesn't rely on melee techniques at all. Shinra's soldiers would be quite a bit deadlier.

[Krylo]

Mentally, it's no contest. Link has to be a genius to make it through the games. We, as players, see and know a lot of things due to the nature of the games that Link would have no chance of knowing. Plus, he actually solves puzzles and navigates mazes worthy of the name. FFVII? Not so. The puzzles and mazes are lackluster.

I'm not going to comment on this past that I've been stuck in final fantasies before. I don't remember if it ever happened in FFVII, but I remember it being considerably more difficult, puzzle wise, than any legend of Zelda past the first. And I think the first was only hard because I was like five at the time. I've never gotten stuck on any Legend of Zelda game. Almost every puzzle is direct and obvious.

While I'm at it, I might as well point out that the difficulty of enemies in Zelda games is completely pathetic as well. Every Zelda game I've played through since reaching adolesence (all of them but the first two) I've beaten without dying once. In Wind Waker I never even needed to use a faerie... and realize that when I got to Ganon's puppets I fought the first one for about two hours because I could have SWORN that light arrow I tried straight off had hit the glowing blue ball of a tail, so I didn't try it again for a long while.

When one of the last bosses can't kill you when you can do nothing but dodge for two hours, there's something seriously wrong with the level of difficulty for the monsters.

Most Zeldas were harder, but not hard enough for me to believe that anything Link fought was truly as horribly dangerous as it's made out to be in the story.

Zelda games, like most games from Nintendo, were made for the whole family. The puzzles were made so that a five year old, although they might have difficulty, could figure them out while still being fun/challenging for an adult. I don't know HOW you think Link is a genius for being able to think through the same set of clues as a small child.

Anyone could figure out that if you stick a piece of wood (arrow) in fire it's going to burn... and if you stick burning wood to ice it will melt, or burning wood to spider webs they'll burn, AND anyone is eventually going to try throwing something at those stupid things hanging around in the whale's gut etc. etc. That's what almost every 'difficult' puzzle was. Either that or old push the block puzzles.

Unless you can refresh my memory to some of these terribly hard puzzles, I'm going to have to keep the opinion that Link is maybe slightly above average in intelligence... or below average and he just uses all the brain power he would normally be using on language skills on puzzles.

What? Everyone else can bash the competition, because OBVIOUSLY actual skill/strength/speed etc. has nothing to do with. It's all about how cool, or OLD the character is.

I realize I'm talking with a crowd of FF fans. You think he's cool, because he's angsty, and therefore you think he's the greatest, most powerful thing ever. But objectively, against real, classic heroes like Link, there's no contest.

But I'm not going to insist that their heroes are somehow inherently better or more powerful than the less popular classic heroes that, logically, have it all over the snot-nosed newcomers.

And while we have that right there... how the HELL is Link less popular than Cloud. I know people that only buy Nintendo systems anymore because they know the next Legend of Zelda will be on it. Hell, I AM one of those people. Cloud isn't going to be selling game systems any time soon.

Just look through the rest of this. See if you can point out everytime someone has said something that is obviously a referral to liking Link better, sometimes even smashing the people who don't think he'll win. You may count yourself amongst their numbers. Then there was Mad Jack. Bitvyper (although she [I think] wasn't being completely serious). Now how many times have I or IHMN said that Link suxxorz, or that he's an angsty loser... hell, how many times have we said that Cloud's a better character? Granted, he IS, but that's just because Link is nothing but a sprite with a sword, and has no actual personality programmed into any game. Cloud's still a shitty character, though.

Cloud is OBVIOUSLY the less popular character. At least on the boards. Probably because people identify better with Link because they can put any personality they want onto him (like their own).

And then there's a question of willpower. Link is a consumate warrior. Never complains once. Cloud is a consumate whiner. His psyche's as stable as a one-legged midget on speed. When betting on the outcome of a battle, you just don't go with the trauma victim, people. It isn't a smart decision.

By the end of FFVII his psyche is actually very stable. And Link not only never complains once... he never SPEAKS once. We don't know anything about his personality or what he's thinking, like I said above. For all we know he could be constantly thinking how much he fucking hates Princess Zelda for getting kidnapped by Ganon EVERY GODDAMN GAME, and he may be thinking he wants to kill her. Or he could just be thinking of Malon naked. That's probably what I'd be doing. Maybe a combination of the two.

But in the end, it comes down to sheer swordsmanship. Even assuming that Cloud has somehow acquired the expertise required to move that giant slab of metal in a method that would be effective for one-on-one combat, Link will win. Why? Because he's good enough with the sword-and-shield combo that he'll take Cloud's hacking with good humor, then push it aside, creating an opening, and shove the Master Sword into Cloud's exposed upper chest.

Kingdom Hearts or Advent Children. I'm not even going to respond to that shit anymore.

Until you see him actually FIGHT with it, and not just go through turn based pre-generated graphics, stop using that same damned arguement we've seen twenty times. It's getting annoying. You've obviously never played the game or seen any of the clips. He's faster with that huge slab of metal than Link could ever hope to be with his sword.


edit:

Jedi vs X-Men.

More Specific:

Luke and Mara Skywalker, Anakin, Jaina and Jacen Solo vs the X-Men.

or

Yoda, Mace Windu, Obi-Wan, Anakin Skywalker(on the verge of Vader) vs X-Men

Or...

Darth Maul, Darth Vader and the Emperor vs Magneto and his evil mutants

Go watch Clone Wars. That fight's not even a contest. It's laughable. Mace Windu ALONE took out an entire droid army. There's nothing the X-men or evil mutants could do to have a chance in this.