Versus Thread III: Return of the Versus

[GatoFiero]

Of the X-Men vs. Jedi fights stated, the Jedi win them all. Now if you throw in Apocalypse...

[Krylo]

Of the X-Men vs. Jedi fights stated, the Jedi win them all. Now if you throw in Apocalypse...

Now that would be interesting, but I'd still give it to the jedi, on the basis that I've seen Mace Windu completely disassemble a battle droid in a split second using only Force Telekinesis... as well as rip through their durasteel frames like butter using the same. And he's not even as powerful as Yoda, Anakin, or Luke.

[Genkotsu Ikaru]

Yes, I know what materia is. But it's still, in the end, just a magical item. Any jerk could use it. And any jerk did. Link's magical ability, on the other hand, isn't something everybody in the setting can do. He's the baddest wizard in the land. Link is, therefore, clearly magically superior. As for everyone having easy control of magic because the knowledge of the Ancients is right there, crystalized... Doubtful. This perfect knowledge is somehow made solid, then transferred perfectly intact via being plugged into something you're holding or wearing. The concept is weak, even for fantasy. I'm at a loss, trying to figure out why having it in your weapon or armor would give you anything, let alone perfect magical skill. So it just makes sense that someone who knows how to use magic on their own would be more proficient at it.

The two-handed sword and the sword-and-shield combo both have their advantages, but the edge goes to the sword-and-shield. You could attack and defend at the same time, whereas you could only do one or the other with a two-handed sword. And even though defense with a shield is pretty easy, you've still got to do two things at once. It's trickier, but in the end, more effective on the whole for one-on-one combat. Two-handed swords were capable of being complex weapons that one could demonstrate a lot of skill with, but on the whole, sword-and-shield is on a whole different level. Now, personally, I prefer to fight with one large blade, but that's because of a tactical decision, weighing in my personal attributes and abilities, and I do not like fighting talented sword-and-shield users. They don't have to be faster. In fact, they'll probably be slower. But that's fine for them. Their shield is going to be in front of my sword, and while their sword is coming at me from a whole different direction. Different sort of speed, and a very deadly concept.

You're confusing the concepts related in menu-driven battles with factual battle. I don't care who you are. You fight multiple opponents at once by limiting their ability to attack and approach you all at once, if you want to have any hope of survival.

Yes, their two STRONGEST divisions were SOLDIER and the Turks. Was Cloud any of those? No. Cookie-cutter infantry. Firearms.

The legal system in the US isn't exactly the best measure of someone's fighting capacity. As I mentioned, I've been a soldier in the US Army. Infantry. Was stationed with several Rangers. In several situations, they asked me for reassurance that I wasn't about to kill them with my bare hands. I've worked combatives training with these men, and once again, I state: Army close-range fighting training will get you killed. Any stories of supreme military badasses you hear are: a) simply exagerrated; b) the result of a simple willingness to kill and adequate physical conditioning; or c) about people who trained how to fight outside the military.

Now, your second post. I've been stuck in Final Fantasies too - the simple result of poor plotting not elaborating where to go next. That's not a puzzle. That's a design flaw.

How is Cloud more popular, you ask? Well, let's see: we're on a Final Fantasy website, for starters. The series as a whole has a ridiculous number of dedicated fans. There's even a user named specifically after the character in question. And even in other, non-FF-themed locales online, I can't go a single day without coming across fanatical fans of Cloud. Link doesn't have that kind of following. True, the series sells GameCubes, but that's because it's a good, solid, enjoyable game series, not because teenagers love psychotic, angsty losers with giant phallic symbols.

Cloud's psyche doesn't "become stable". Just because he's managed to get past the outward manifestations of it, he's still the same guy who thought he was somebody else not too long ago. I'm not gonna put that kind of faith in a ravening madman a couple days after he picks himself up and says "Yeah, I got it. I'm cool now." Recovery is a process. Anybody who's ever had a psychology class will tell you that he probably has to rebuild the house of cards that is his mind every time he sneezes.

And yes, I'm aware of Kingdom Hearts and Advent Children. Never seen Advent Children, but in Kingdom Hearts, I never did see Cloud move the sword in a way that would be effective in a duel against an opponent of similar power. Relies on strength and mass of the blade, rather than technique. Link would spank him without bothering to wake up properly.

[Krylo]

Yes, I know what materia is. But it's still, in the end, just a magical item. Any jerk could use it. And any jerk did. Link's magical ability, on the other hand, isn't something everybody in the setting can do. He's the baddest wizard in the land. Link is, therefore, clearly magically superior. As for everyone having easy control of magic because the knowledge of the Ancients is right there, crystalized... Doubtful. This perfect knowledge is somehow made solid, then transferred perfectly intact via being plugged into something you're holding or wearing. The concept is weak, even for fantasy. I'm at a loss, trying to figure out why having it in your weapon or armor would give you anything, let alone perfect magical skill. So it just makes sense that someone who knows how to use magic on their own would be more proficient at it.

Being the most magical badass in Hyrule is being like the smartest kid in preschool. Sure, you can spell your name, and that's special in your little world, but once you get out into the rest of the world you realize most people can spell things like onomatopeia. He has no abilities that the FF7 crew can't use.

I don't particularily like materia either, but it's still a shit load more powerful than any hyrulian magic.

The two-handed sword and the sword-and-shield combo both have their advantages, but the edge goes to the sword-and-shield. You could attack and defend at the same time, whereas you could only do one or the other with a two-handed sword. [...] But that's fine for them. Their shield is going to be in front of my sword, and while their sword is coming at me from a whole different direction. Different sort of speed, and a very deadly concept.

Using a sword alone still takes more skill than using a sword and shield, in order to get the same results. That was my arguement because you were saying he was more skilled due to using the shield as well. That makes no sense at all.

And Cloud is a lot stronger than you are, and also uses an actual steel sword. I'm assuming you're one of those people that go to Ren Faires or wooden sword battles. Anyway, point being, while a shield may stop your sword, a shield against Cloud's is going to knock the person using the shield back. He's easily as strong, or stronger than Ganon, who was able to toss Link around if you made the mistake of blocking his attacks instead of dodging.

You're confusing the concepts related in menu-driven battles with factual battle. I don't care who you are. You fight multiple opponents at once by limiting their ability to attack and approach you all at once, if you want to have any hope of survival.

Yes. But when you fight a tight group of people in a large open hallway, how are you going to do that? Cloud's fought just that group before.

AND, the point of that arguement was that they've fought just as much and just as hard. Cloud having a party doesn't make him weaker, it just makes him less retarded for getting some other people to help him fight the evil army.

How is Cloud more popular, you ask? Well, let's see: we're on a Final Fantasy website, for starters. The series as a whole has a ridiculous number of dedicated fans. There's even a user named specifically after the character in question. And even in other, non-FF-themed locales online, I can't go a single day without coming across fanatical fans of Cloud. Link doesn't have that kind of following. True, the series sells GameCubes, but that's because it's a good, solid, enjoyable game series, not because teenagers love psychotic, angsty losers with giant phallic symbols.

And I can't go a single day here without running into someone who absolutely hates Cloud. Congratulations on proving, as though your post count of four didn't already, that you don't know what you're talking about when you start to assume things about the other members of a community.

This isn't an FF-Based website. This is a webcomic based website that is very loosely related to a final fantasy game that some of the users, including myself and one of the mods, absolutely can't stand. Sure, a lot of them like final fantasy 1, but a lot of people in general like final fantasy 1.

Go and look up old threads in the video games section about FFX or FFVII. You can't read a thread about either game without hearing people insulting Sephiroth, Cloud, and/or Tidus. Sometimes all at the same time.

You can, however, read one of them without running into someone bothering to defend one of those three characters. With the possible exception of Tidus, but that's just because he's the most fleshed out and realistic final fantasy protagonist we've had and I make it my duty to protect him from people that feel their masculinity is challenged by a male protagonist that has feelings.

As it turns out there's lots of people like that.

There's also lots of people that feel their masculinity is challenged by any kind of pretty-boy at all. Kuja, Sephiroth, Cloud, Tidus, etc. all recieve more flack than any other ten characters, final fantasy or otherwise, combined. Even if you make Yuffie one of those characters.

At least on these boards.

I HATE pulling the newbie card (and I think this is the first time I've ever done it), but damnit, you don't come into a place you know nothing about and then tell all the people there what they do and do not like based on your casual observations for all of two days. You don't see me going to a mall I've never been to before for two days and then going up to every person there and telling them that they love the gap because there happens to be clothing stores around and at other malls most people like the Gap, do you? That's essentially what you've just done.

Especially when this community is drastically different from other internet communities in how strictly we handle people, stupidity, and rules. Fanboys don't last. For some reason, however, anti-fanboys tend to be able to keep their special brand of obsessiveness hidden just well enough to not piss everyone off, so they get to stay.

And yes, I'm aware of Kingdom Hearts and Advent Children. Never seen Advent Children, but in Kingdom Hearts, I never did see Cloud move the sword in a way that would be effective in a duel against an opponent of similar power. Relies on strength and mass of the blade, rather than technique. Link would spank him without bothering to wake up properly.

...Cloud's abilities with the sword in that game go well beyond anything Link does in any game. I'd like to see Link do the sonic burst, or even swing his sword as fast as Cloud does... or for that matter half as hard. Then there's his parrying abilities that make it damn near impossible to hit him unless you manuever around behind him and/or hit him right after a sonic attack... or manage to knock his sword away. Which I doubt Link would be capable of. Sora only was because of the keyblade. "His strength is not his own" and all that.

[Dragonsbane]

Originally Posted by krylo

Now that would be interesting, but I'd still give it to the jedi, on the basis that I've seen Mace Windu completely disassemble a battle droid in a split second using only Force Telekinesis... as well as rip through their durasteel frames like butter using the same. And he's not even as powerful as Yoda, Anakin, or Luke.

Nah, it was several battle droids...at once. Mace Windu is, in my opinion, the great great great great (insert several more greats) grandson of Morpheus, with all of his badass qualities and skills.

Originally Posted by Genkotsu Ikaru

Yes, I know what materia is. But it's still, in the end, just a magical item. Any jerk could use it. And any jerk did. Link's magical ability, on the other hand, isn't something everybody in the setting can do. He's the baddest wizard in the land. Link is, therefore, clearly magically superior. As for everyone having easy control of magic because the knowledge of the Ancients is right there, crystalized... Doubtful. This perfect knowledge is somehow made solid, then transferred perfectly intact via being plugged into something you're holding or wearing. The concept is weak, even for fantasy. I'm at a loss, trying to figure out why having it in your weapon or armor would give you anything, let alone perfect magical skill. So it just makes sense that someone who knows how to use magic on their own would be more proficient at it.

Link is not a wizard, he is a spellcaster. Even then, he still knows only a few spells. This does NOT make him the best wizard in the land.

The stuff about preserved magical knowledge...I found a very similar item in a DnD book, it's called a Kiira, or an elvish Loregem. Basically, it's a spellbook-type thing, which works in the same exact way as Materia.

Do spellbooks seem implausible to you? Basically, a Kiira is a spellbook in gem form, with knowledge conveyed to the user telepathically. The only difference in Materia and a Kiira is that Materia only contains 1 spell or ability.

[Terex4]

The only difference in Materia and a Kiira is that Materia only contains 1 spell or ability.

That and if you want to talk magic items, me + two wands= dead wizard.

Anyway, back on topic.

I have to give Cloud a bit more of an edge than I previously did because I didn't take into account how powerful his swing really is. Link would be able to continue to parry and thrust but his arm would still have to take the force of the blow and his return swing probably couldn't reach Cloud.

So now we have a stalemate.

That's where I believe the acrobatics factor in. If Cloud can't penetrate Link's shield, and Link can't reach Cloud, then it comes down to who can maneuver the best between them. I'm giving this one to Link (granted I've never even seen Kingdom Hearts or Advent Children so I don't know how well Cloud can maneuver around someone....)

I'll tell you right now that if they put Cloud in Super Smash Bros, I'd whip his ass with Link hands down.

I would like to stress that I'm not a Cloud hater. He certainly isn't my favorite character but I believe he was more or less better after the game (the final fight with Sephiroth should have cleansed his mind) and I'm hardly a Link fanboy. I just think this fight is one that would be damn close (my vote's just happens to be on Link).

[Genkotsu Ikaru]

Originally Posted by krylo

Being the most magical badass in Hyrule is being like the smartest kid in preschool. Sure, you can spell your name, and that's special in your little world, but once you get out into the rest of the world you realize most people can spell things like onomatopeia. He has no abilities that the FF7 crew can't use.

I don't particularily like materia either, but it's still a shit load more powerful than any hyrulian magic.

Not really, no.

Using a sword alone still takes more skill than using a sword and shield, in order to get the same results. That was my arguement because you were saying he was more skilled due to using the shield as well. That makes no sense at all.

Okay, so doing something with two hands at once takes more skill than doing the same thing with one hand and something completely different with the other? I'm not grokkin' what you're talkin', boyo.

And Cloud is a lot stronger than you are, and also uses an actual steel sword. I'm assuming you're one of those people that go to Ren Faires or wooden sword battles. Anyway, point being, while a shield may stop your sword, a shield against Cloud's is going to knock the person using the shield back. He's easily as strong, or stronger than Ganon, who was able to toss Link around if you made the mistake of blocking his attacks instead of dodging.

Arguing that Cloud is stronger than Ganon is pointless. There have already been a number of arguments in favor of both of them being stronger than the other, so we're going to have to default to equality. Your argument seems to hinge on the vital fact that Cloud is a raging badass who kicks the ass of all in sight. That sort of defeats the purpose of discussing this at all.

Yes. But when you fight a tight group of people in a large open hallway, how are you going to do that? Cloud's fought just that group before.

Umm... Move? It's not that hard. Much as I'd love to give you a lesson on basic individual and small-unit tactics via text, I don't really see the point in it.

AND, the point of that arguement was that they've fought just as much and just as hard. Cloud having a party doesn't make him weaker, it just makes him less retarded for getting some other people to help him fight the evil army.

Well, it's easier for Cloud. He can easily go round up a herd of whoever is handy, because that's who's just as powerful as he is. Whoever he comes across. No one goes along with Link, because everyone else would die. That's why he's special, and Cloud's just sort of... There.

And I can't go a single day here without running into someone who absolutely hates Cloud. Congratulations on proving, as though your post count of four didn't already, that you don't know what you're talking about when you start to assume things about the other members of a community.

This isn't an FF-Based website. This is a webcomic based website that is very loosely related to a final fantasy game that some of the users, including myself and one of the mods, absolutely can't stand. Sure, a lot of them like final fantasy 1, but a lot of people in general like final fantasy 1.

Go and look up old threads in the video games section about FFX or FFVII. You can't read a thread about either game without hearing people insulting Sephiroth, Cloud, and/or Tidus. Sometimes all at the same time.

You can, however, read one of them without running into someone bothering to defend one of those three characters. With the possible exception of Tidus, but that's just because he's the most fleshed out and realistic final fantasy protagonist we've had and I make it my duty to protect him from people that feel their masculinity is challenged by a male protagonist that has feelings.

As it turns out there's lots of people like that.

There's also lots of people that feel their masculinity is challenged by any kind of pretty-boy at all. Kuja, Sephiroth, Cloud, Tidus, etc. all recieve more flack than any other ten characters, final fantasy or otherwise, combined. Even if you make Yuffie one of those characters.

At least on these boards.

Yes. People hate these characters. It's mostly because they loathe the endless attention people pile on them. I wouldn't hate Cloud so much if I didn't hear day in, day out just how damn cool he is. He's one of the most popular video game characters of all time, and it's offensive just on the basis that there are a million characters out there who actually don't suck.

I HATE pulling the newbie card (and I think this is the first time I've ever done it), but damnit, you don't come into a place you know nothing about and then tell all the people there what they do and do not like based on your casual observations for all of two days. You don't see me going to a mall I've never been to before for two days and then going up to every person there and telling them that they love the gap because there happens to be clothing stores around and at other malls most people like the Gap, do you? That's essentially what you've just done.

Especially when this community is drastically different from other internet communities in how strictly we handle people, stupidity, and rules. Fanboys don't last. For some reason, however, anti-fanboys tend to be able to keep their special brand of obsessiveness hidden just well enough to not piss everyone off, so they get to stay.

Wow. You realize why pulling the n00b card is something you hate to do? Because it demonstrates the weakness of the rest of your arguments. Cloud is popular because he's crazy, and he has a big sword. That's it. Think about it. It may not be a fact you can prove, but it's something you can recongize with little effort. It's not a crime to recognize trends and their causes. I recognized the basis of the appeal of one character, and the gross disproportion ascribed to his prowess. That's it.

...Cloud's abilities with the sword in that game go well beyond anything Link does in any game. I'd like to see Link do the sonic burst, or even swing his sword as fast as Cloud does... or for that matter half as hard. Then there's his parrying abilities that make it damn near impossible to hit him unless you manuever around behind him and/or hit him right after a sonic attack... or manage to knock his sword away. Which I doubt Link would be capable of. Sora only was because of the keyblade. "His strength is not his own" and all that.

"Hard", once again, is determined by strength, and there is no conclusive argument that Cloud is stronger than Link at all. I, for one, fail to be impressed by the Sonic Burst, and as someone in the habit of reflecting such attacks as a matter of course, so would Link be. And his parrying abilities, again, goes back to the argument about swordsmanship. Link, again, is very likely the better swordsman. Cloud is able to block opponents because he's stronger than most of them, but then, so is Link. It's not all that hard to get past an "impenetrable" parry, for a competent swordsman. Here again, Cloud is limited to giant, sweeping attacks that Link would block or dodge with ease (that's what he DOES, in his games, if you hadn't noticed), and defenses that are inviolable just because of some arbitrary insistance of his superior ability that doesn't apply to this situation.

Personally, I'm trying to limit myself to situations that are clearly defined by the games. Knowing the character of Link and the nature of materia, I wouldn't be surprised if he started absorbing them by the handful mid-battle, stripping Cloud of his magical attacks and half of his sword skills, and making Link even stronger in the process. That's what's fun about real wizards. They can do stuff with magical knowledge that isn't hardcoded into their items.

[Genkotsu Ikaru]

Originally Posted by Dragonsbane

Link is not a wizard, he is a spellcaster. Even then, he still knows only a few spells. This does NOT make him the best wizard in the land.

The stuff about preserved magical knowledge...I found a very similar item in a DnD book, it's called a Kiira, or an elvish Loregem. Basically, it's a spellbook-type thing, which works in the same exact way as Materia.

Do spellbooks seem implausible to you? Basically, a Kiira is a spellbook in gem form, with knowledge conveyed to the user telepathically. The only difference in Materia and a Kiira is that Materia only contains 1 spell or ability.

It's part of Link's character. The game-makers haven't done a good job of following through on it, but since the inception of the character, Link has been portrayed as a wizard of ridiculous power, even if he didn't have quite the spell list others may have had. Not any less capable for it, just had to divide his time among other things. And that's not even counting the power of the TriForce, which is friggin ridiculous.

Kiira were much different from Materia. For one, you wore one, on your head, directly against the skin. You didn't have a handful slotted here and there among your possessions. And the thing about spellbooks is, you don't actually have to be reading it to cast the spell. Materia have to be used directly to cause the effect. The concept is weak. And even kiira could only be used by people who already had the knowledge to use them. Materia let any shmoe launch a spell. That's what we call "lame".

[Krylo]

Wow. You realize why pulling the n00b card is something you hate to do? Because it demonstrates the weakness of the rest of your arguments.

Actually it was in no way connected to the rest of my arguements. It was connected to you coming into a community you know little to nothing about and accusing members of the community of being fanboys. I pulled the newbie card because it was the most effective. You don't know this community and you have no business saying anything about how WE feel about characters, regardless of what you've run into in the past.

I'm not going to bother with this anymore. We've reached the points where your responses are getting to be either one sentence or have no basis in fact.

Besides, you've already admitted to being an anti-fanboy.

I wouldn't hate Cloud so much if I didn't hear day in

And we've stopped listening to them long ago, because they're just as bad as fan boys. Just like we stopped listening to arguements from Dragonsbane involving Sephiroth (anti-fanboy) or Raistlin (fanboy), or Otaku-son regarding any character at all, but mostly Solid Snake (fan boy).


Link was not a wizard. Even in the game he had the most magical knowledge he never developed his own spells. He just got them from some actual wizards as thanks... and he wasn't even very good at using magic. In fact, his magic sucked. His magic only got worse in every other game that came out after that. In all but one he didn't even HAVE magic, just magical items, and in that one all he had were three spells. He couldn't manipulate them or make them do different things at all.

Link was not as strong as Cloud. He could hardly wield the Big Goron sword, and that wasn't nearly as big as Cloud's various swords, which he was able to easily spin over his head. You went so far as to suggest density manipulation and lightness enchantments... when there was nothing in FF7 to suggest either of those things existed. Those are the kinds of arguements we have for their strength being equal. "Oh yah! Well that sword was probably made magically lighter somehow!" It's stupid, and you're being unreasonable.

We're going in circles. You're presenting exactly the same arguement you have since your very first post here. No matter how I attack it, or from what angle, you continue to just repeat the same thing.

Just like a fanboy defending their favorite character would do. Just like Otaku-son used to do when he was trying to convince us that Metal Snake could take on a tag team of Megaman and Samus Aran at the same time.

Hell, even DB, who freaking HATES Cloud, as has been shown in multiple past fights, has said your thoughts on magic and materia are bullshit. That's something to consider. Not even your own side agrees with you.

Not that we should even be discussing magic. It's not supposed to be allowed anyway... but the anti-fanboys and fanboys keep bringing it up, because they imagine it gives Link some huge super advantage, and they can't stand the idea of an angsty wanna-be Goth beating him.


P.S. Don't double post unless your post is over 10000 characters. In which case you're allowed to for length. Otherwise it REALLY irritates the mods.

[Genkotsu Ikaru]

I bring up magic because it's a more viable option than the items that are allowed. First one to put down their sword to pull out an item is dead. Plain and simple.

I'm only an anti-fanboy in the sense that I hate it when people inflate Cloud's abilities beyond reason, as you do.

Link is presented as a wizard in the background. The games didn't follow through, for whatever reason. Crappy technology of the time and no innovation in that direction. That sucks. Doesn't make him less of a wizard. You want to include movies and games that are presented far outside the character's native environment with no concern for power balance, I can include every other game Link's been in, plus supplemental fiction, videos, etc. He's a wizard. End of story.

Who in their right mind would reduce a sword's weight? A sword's weight is what gives it it's cutting power. A less dense sword is idiotic. I thought it went without saying that the Big Goron sword likely weighed as much as a truck.

I agree. I'm using the same arguments. But that's because you haven't bested the arguments yet. I'm just putting them back out there for you to try to respond to properly.

Sorry about the double post. Didn't see the second post I was responding to when I sent the first, and then I responded to it in the most convenient manner. In my defense, the second post wasn't spam, but actually said something, so hopefully it's forgiveable. Not trying to boost the post count or anything.