Has anyone seen this before.

[ApathyMan]

This is just one of the many sensationalist propaganda videos that ironically try to attack America's own propaganda systems. Sure, it could raise a couple of points, but they're all very broad, providing quick phrases and pictures instead of strong details to back them up. I'm not trying to prove/disprove the points it's making (though I certainly could, leading to a high degree of pwnage by me) - just remember that the people who made this are just trying to convince you to do something (America's Fascism, advertising his books, etc...).

I don't like these videos that just feed people distilled facts - it makes them just as bad as the "widespread government propaganda" they claim exist.

[Feuermachtspass]

to patriotism in another post, i'm short on time. to everything else:

the only claim that was correct in that video was that america is patriotic (more on that later). of course the military was boosted. that is what war tends to do (the war is also not the issue here). sexism? nonsense! fraudulent elections? if anything, any fraud happened from the other side (kurt cobain voted in one of the democratic primaries...and here we all thought he was dead!)! and when did the supreme court become conservative? if it was, roe v wade would have been overthrown by now. there isnt a single thing in that cant be easily refuted.

who didnt care about the torture? everyone cared! those responsible were held responsible. controlled mass media? where was that again? because there is ONE conservative station in a sea of liberal ones? if there were controlled mass media that sort of false bull crap would be shot out of existance. this is just one of many smear campaigns that contain no facts, only drivel designed to enrage/alarm/make america not want to listen to the conservative side. the people who do this sort of thing could at least look at a FEW facts. wait for a later post on patriotism.

[Viper Daimao]

I dont know what to say in this thread other than bullshit. Unbelievable bullshit. and then robot claims something akin to there being an inverse proportion of the freedom of a nation to the number of flags on a block? unless the govt is forcing you to put up flags, then bullshit.

[Hamelin]

The people who truly believe in this country will make sure it doesn't go downhill too far.

And I'm not talking about the multitudes of people who put up flags out of respect after 9/11, I'm not saying they aren't patriotic, but there's a difference between a long burning flame and a firecracker. One lingers and has a lasting effect; one just has that initial snap. It does stand that firecrackers can start larger fires too, and I think that to some extent that has happened.

I rather dislike how everyone automatically assumes that the entire government is out to get us. While there may be some glaring examples of general assholeishness in the government at any time, under any leadership, generally, people take much greater magnitudes of notice when memorable, bad stuff happens, as opposed to when the more boring, normal stuff happens

There's more to our government than self-serving fucktards, it's just that those guys bring to themselves far more attention than the politicians that actually try to represent those that elected them.

I also have a problem with the "current trend" argument. Less than a decade of happenings is hardly grounds to assume what could happen in the future, considering the age of our country, that amount of time is mostly insignificant. Let this stuff go on for 20 years or so and then you'll have an argument I'll by into. Right now all it seems like is a persevering fad.

[Dr. Proctor]

If you notice the images accompanying the 'election fraud' statement and know who the people are, then you'll know that they are referring to the 2000 election rather than the 2004 one. There have been some stories on tampering from both sides, but 2000 was the big one. If you don't believe the 2000 election was tampered with heavily, just to let you know, there's overwhelming evidence to support that theory, and I just don't feel like finding articles and linking them at the moment.

Anyways, this discussion has gone on for a while now, and there are certainly some real concerns brought up. However, calling America a 'fascist state' is far from the truth. Calling America a country with 'fascist elements' is a little sketchy. Calling America a country that is 'moving towards fascism' would be more accurate.

All the claims that video makes are at least half-truths, as there is evidence supporting their claims. However, there is evidence denying them as well....which is the truth is honestly irrelevant. The fact that there is any similarity between America and now-defunct fascist states is alarming and very bad. While that video is very much 'propaganda', that doesn't necessarily mean there aren't shreds and nuggets of truth within it.

The most alarming point the video brings up is the deseparation of church and state. Under Dubya, the religious undertones in all government actions has reached a near-fever pitch. Bush and Co. often use religious keywords in their addresses, and the Christian right has risen and become a powerful force within our beauracracy. Is this good? If a majority of the nation agree with this movement's aims and goals, as democracy dictates. However I do not believe this is so, and I simply wish to point out that the founders of this country included a separation of church and state for a reason.

As far as patriotism/nationalism goes, it has gone a little too far. There is nothing wrong with waving a flag on your car. There is also nothing wrong with hanging flags on your house, in your office, in your bedroom, or tying one to your cat. But there is most certainly something wrong when this 'patriotism' breeds ignorance. And it has, as it galvanizes the public to dislike entire nations (France) and nationalities (Arabians) simply because they're 'different' or 'against us.' It has fostered a 'we're right, because we're America' sensation that is making our government and culture more hated worldwide than ever before. And the effect snowballs, until the whole public is brainwashed into believing that America has a soverign right to control the world.

Was it that hard to make that logical leap from patriotism to world domination plans? Not really. And that is the concern here.

[ChaosMage]

The most alarming point the video brings up is the deseparation of church and state. Under Dubya, the religious undertones in all government actions has reached a near-fever pitch. Bush and Co. often use religious keywords in their addresses, and the Christian right has risen and become a powerful force within our beauracracy.

Along those lines, the same guy who did this has more of these videos on his website. One of them deals with what has happened to Church and State separation under the Bush administration. This particular video is probably the most propaganda like, serving more to produce interest in the rest of his videos more than anything else. The rest of his videos (like his church and state one, or the case against using depleted uranium bullets) present plenty of facts which I encourage everyone to look into.

But yes, I do believe that perhaps there is a problem with word choice in the video. In my mind, patriotism is supporting your country. That DOES NOT mean supporting your leaders, supporting the government or anything like that. To be patriotic, you do what is best for the country whether that is to expose horrible things about your leaders, contradict them, demonstrations, whatever it takes to do what you feel is best for the nation. The sentiment in the video would probably be better called "lingering nationalism" as described by someone else above.

[Elmer J.]

While I agree that the Nation is far closer to Fascism than it was a few years ago, we have a ways to go before we fit the definition as nicely as the narrator put it.
However, a point that has always given me pause,is this:
If a democratic country wishes it's country to be fascist, is it right to stop them?
Personally, I have major problems with most of the things the far right says
ex. Anti-gay marriage
strengthening of the military
church-state deseperation
rampant nationalism.
But I don't think it would be right if my beliefs ruled supreme and I was in a minority.
That said, if a great majority of the populace is opposed to fascism, then this flash is relevant.
The disdain held for intellectuals and indiscriminate patriotism is getting a little out of hand.
I've run into people who honestly believe, in a democratic state, that they should support their country right or wrong.
I've met people who think America is the greatest nation in the history of the world and perfect.
I pointed out several warcrimes that the U.S. had committed.
To which the person in question replied: "That was in the past, America is perfect now."
Tell me that isn't a scary degree of nationalism.

[Robot Jesus]

Only one fascist state has ever come into existence through revolution (Italy under Mussolini) and it was a highly popular revolution. The dangerous part about fascism is that its not some subversive element or conspiracy its always the will of the people, they just don’t realize it until its too late.

Fascism always begins with nationalism, loving your country is good but it’s a hop a skip and a jump from truly dangerous behavior. While you can make the distinction between loving your country and loving the offices of the government the mob usually cant make such a subtle distinction.

And in regards to the comment about the military, even during peace time (the nineties) America spent more on its military that the next 10 largest military powers combined.

[ApathyMan]

Originally Posted by Robot Jesus

And in regards to the comment about the military, even during peace time (the nineties) America spent more on its military that the next 10 largest military powers combined.

Of course, when you say that, you ignore the fact that America has much more money to spend. When you look at the amount spent on the military per capita, Israel is #1. America is #3. Israel spends over $1400 per person; America spends about $1000. France, which is #10, spends about $775. The numbers are not very suprising at all since we are actively engaged in foreign battles.

Also, we spend less than 4% of our GDP on the military. When compared to other nations, that puts us well below the top 25 nations.

Edit: By the way, my source was www.nationmaster.com - their source was the CIA world factbook. Great websites for statistics. I, ApathyMan, will KNOCK YOU ALL DOWN with statistics.

[Packman]

Shamelessly plugs America The Loved.


Patriotism is in all world power countries. I guess if you count countries that lack any reason for patriotism but still exist then not all of the successful coutries in the world have patriotism. I defined a successful country as one that has a dominant presence and commands respect.

As for the Patriotism relating to Fascism thing by Robot I think Viper puts the most eloquently.

Originally Posted by Viper Daimao

I dont know what to say in this thread other than bullshit. Unbelievable bullshit. and then robot claims something akin to there being an inverse proportion of the freedom of a nation to the number of flags on a block? unless the govt is forcing you to put up flags, then bullshit.

Robot-I cant help but find your ideas to be pacifist.

To paraphrase Patton a pacifist is someone who denys the right to existance of their country which defends them. As a final result they are the greatest of cowards those who refuse to defend what defends them.

I personally want MY country to be the most powerful safest nation in the world. I also want my country to contain the most freedoms. Me and my descendants will live in the most powerful nation on the planet. Be it Rome, The Holy Roman Empire, Napolianic France, America or any future country MY country WILL be the most powerful nation in the world. When America looses that title is when I have died, and my descendants have built a new country.

As for Doc. Procs statement about racial hatred. Once again you fail to realize that this is the belief of the stupid and ignorant.

The people who have the power in this country are people like me who express their opinions, sway other peoples opinions, and have my beliefs carried out. My aunt, my brother and me had a wonderful discussion where we decided which countries were potential threats and which countries were not. My aunt and me explained to my father the governments of the various middle eastern countries. This is what one side of my family does when we meet; we discuss world politics and important issues.

Originally Posted by Hamelin

The people who truly believe in this country will make sure it doesn't go downhill too far.

Agreed!

Begin Gay Rights Agenda.
Off topic but to address a former statement.
From a Christians point of view.
Because marrage is a religious (Jewish then Christian) institution, Christianity feels that homosexuals are attacking a Christian belief. Its denying a person the right to religious freedom. Clearly this is against the constitution.

Personally I dont believe someone can offend someone elses religion. I do believe in giving equal treatment under the law; however, I do not believe you can greatly offend the mass majority of American voters as gay rights would.

As for the Christian power in this nation it is very similar to Black power or Jewish power.

Its a large group that is
1)Organized and
2)Votes as well as
3)Supports and Defends each other

If you vote in masse you have power in America. Bottom line. Voting controls the government, which makes the laws, which dictate the country, which controls the money, which controls the greedy bastards who run for office.

End Gay Rights Agenda.

As for some of the general comments made about Bush, Kerry, and other showcase figures, I find it sad at how general and idiotic the statements are bieng made. Kerry and Bush both are honorable men who stand up for what they believe in. The propoganda spread to convince an idiot which way to vote is the only thing I am hearing about either of them. Sadly enough judging by the slander on T.V., an idiots vote is apparently very important. I find it funny because even though the most money is spent on getting stupid people to vote a certain way none of their opinions are listened to.

I personally find that, almost any man who runs for President is incredibly talented. Certain qualities like bieng good looking or bieng rich certainly help, yet all of them are driven. Nobody gets over 100 million votes without having something powerful backing them up.

Finally, I feel its important to seperate government and business. A government must run as a business, but instead of having money as a goal it should have the idea of fulfilling the will of the people as its goal instead. I find several businesses in the government as a disgusting rot of our country. The one I would like to point out now is the Traffic Ticket business. The government makes over 1 Billion Dollars annually from traffic ticket fines. This is disgusting, the average roadspeed is over 70mph on the route I take to school/work. Why in the hell is the government allowed to be making money off of inforcing the law? In addition a policemans quota or fixed amount of tickets they must write is a sad showing of just how greedy this scam is. An officer of the law should write tickets as he sees fit to increase the safety of the people, not as a required part of their job. Policeman should be figting the problems in our nation, not wasting their time mugging people.