Has anyone seen this before. - Page 3

Adoria · 03-02-2005, 04:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robot Jesus

And in regards to the comment about the military, even during peace time (the nineties) America spent more on its military that the next 10 largest military powers combined.

?? You call desert storm peace time?? As far as I, and America, is concerned, there is no peace time. When you are hated and loved as much as the US is, there is never a reason to stop spending money on the military.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robot Jesus

What�s the point of having a technically free press if the public won�t let them say anything bad about the country?

Yes, there is the illusion of free press. Yes, many things are censored. But ya know what, we have one of the most free forms of press in the world. People are stupid. Mass amounts of people are even more stupid. There are things we the public don't know and never will. I'm fine with that, since there are some things I don't want to know. I'm not one of those people who demands to know every shady deal my government is involved in, because every leader/government is not clean in the political sense of the word. That is the world we live in. If the media of some other countries said 1 millionth of the bad things our does about the US government, they'd be shot on the spot. I'm not saying that is good, but realize the amount of freedom you DO have, not the amount that you DON'T and be a little grateful.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr. Proctor

All the claims that video makes are at least half-truths, as there is evidence supporting their claims. However, there is evidence denying them as well....which is the truth is honestly irrelevant.

Yes they are half-truths. Everything you hear nowadays are half-truths. Did you know I have evidence that Big Foot exists?? And I know for a fact that Elvis is still alive..............

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elmer J.

I've run into people who honestly believe, in a democratic state, that they should support their country right or wrong. I've met people who think America is the greatest nation in the history of the world and perfect. I pointed out several warcrimes that the U.S. had committed. To which the person in question replied: "That was in the past, America is perfect now." Tell me that isn't a scary degree of nationalism.

Where to begin? It is our duty to question anything we disagree within a democracy, and if the situation calls for it, revolt. Blind support is disastrous, but nationalism is not the only factor.

America is anything but perfect, and we are not the greatest nation in history since we've only been in existence for 200 YEARS!!!!! That's a drop in the bucket. If we're still deciding fashion trends a millenium from now, you can start talking about greatness.

As for war crimes, don't come to me and tell me any country is not guilty. I'm not passing the buck on this, America is responsible for everything it has done and will do. Just don't tell it like it's a shock that a government would "do such a thing." And a perfect America..........that is not nationalism talking. That's an IQ of 70 opening its mouth. That person is just asking for a wake-up call (ex. a good slapping followed by an education).

Meister · 03-02-2005, 04:59 AM

As I said in Adoria's thread, you'll have to avoid the religious aspects of the matter in this discussion. We know religious discussions, and especially the one about seperation of church and state, as high quality flame war starters.

Feuermachtspass · 03-02-2005, 10:31 AM

patriotism is the very thing that makes our country or any country great. patriotism means that you are doing your very best to help the final outcome of your country. patriotism is not a bad thing. fanatacism is. i define a fanatic as one who unquestioningly obeys an entity that he believes to be superior to himself. i dont really know if that is the exact def, but its good enough for me.

the more patriotism we have, the better our country will be. the better our country is, the more able we are to help our citizens. what is wrong with this picture? what is so bad about being a great nation? should we instead strive for mediocrity? that seems fairly stupid to me.

and as for bush and the intertwining of religion...i disagree. we elected a man with a certain set of values. we knew that he had these values and would act in the presidency as a man of such values. those values show through. bush is a christian. does that mean that religion and state are intertwined? absolutely not. does that mean he is forcing the whole nation towards belief in god? i think not. my point is, just because bush is religious, doesnt mean that he is forcing religion onto the country. he is acting as any other president, religious or otherwise, would act: doing what he feels is right.

EDIT: i mention this to show that i do not believe that bush is violating the sep of church and state. after posting, i reread it and took quite a bit out in the interest of better following the rules, and i believe this post is in compliance with them

Veritas · 03-02-2005, 11:09 AM

For the last time "Seperation of Church and State" appears nowhere in the Constitution. The idea came from letters between Thomas Jefferson and some of his friends. The idea was to stop the goverenment from requiring its citizens to follow a certain religion, not this current idea were anything even resembling Christian ideals is rejected. So what if Bush gets some pro-Christian items turned into laws. If it really bothers people wait a couple years and get a different president to change them back. That's why we only have 4 year terms.

And Robot Jesus if the level of patriotism really bothers you that much just wait a couple years. By then I think it will be really hard to find anyone who gives a damn.

Meister · 03-02-2005, 11:22 AM

Last time I'm gonna say it. Knock it off with the Church/State separation issue. There's enough other stuff to debate in that movie.

(All efforts to comply with the rules have been noticed. And I ain't kidding about the "last time" thing.)

Napoleon98 · 03-02-2005, 02:00 PM

Ok, first of all yes this is a bit misleading as it implies that the USA is a facist state, or very close... Wem ay be moving in that direction, but we are far from it, or atleast I'd like to think so...

"Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel. " -Samuel Johnson

I gotta say, there is nothign wrong with a little patriotism, but once it gets to a certain point it is just anoying and wrong. Having love for your country is one thing, but having unconditional love and respect when it is clearly wrong is jsut stupid. There are hundreds, possibly thousands of quotes from senate members and famous americans alike that basically say "America is the best no matter what happens or what is done." That is a WRONG ATTITUDE! I can't find the quote atm, but it went something like "A true patriot will not stand by hsi country when it is in the wrong, he will fix it and destroy what is worng about it so that it will be reborn a new and better country, free from its former shame." Which is what we should do, Americans should not stand blindly by and let their country go to shit (not saying they are, but defiantely getting close).
When you look at the scandels and crimes against humanity in the prison camps and with the POW's, its not soo much that they weren't help responsible (and for what they did they really only got a slap on the wrist) its teh fact that it happened. They are the soldiers of America and they represent us in times of war (like it or not some dude out in Iraq is representing you and me), and as representatives they should have the sense not to preform such atrocious acts.

They never said that the Supreme court was conservative, just that they interfered with the 2000 elections, in an unprecidented move and they decided who won. They STOPPED an election process, which is what the video and other people have been referring to.

I'm pretty sure that the comment about military increases was referring to AFTER the war. And you say that NO TIME is consdiered peace time? One of the points in the video was about a Nation's obsession with national security, and by sayign its never a time of peace your sayign we should always be prepared for war, which sorta jsut makes us move clsoer to a facist state(by his definition).

Sorry if it's muddled and I left stuff out, jstu realized I gotta haul ass to class so some of it may nto make sense, I'll try to post later to reorganize what I said and meant to say...

Packman · 03-03-2005, 12:28 AM

THE SPELLING ERROR HELL OF THE LAST POST!! THE HORROR!!! (just pickn on ya Napolean)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Feuermachtspass

patriotism is the very thing that makes our country or any country great. patriotism means that you are doing your very best to help the final outcome of your country. patriotism is not a bad thing. fanatacism is. i define a fanatic as one who unquestioningly obeys an entity that he believes to be superior to himself. i dont really know if that is the exact def, but its good enough for me.

the more patriotism we have, the better our country will be. the better our country is, the more able we are to help our citizens. what is wrong with this picture? what is so bad about being a great nation? should we instead strive for mediocrity? that seems fairly stupid to me.

Where the HELL did that logic come from? Damnit dont just say 'this or that' makes a country great. Give a reason why patriotism helps the country. Support your arguements!

Patriotism helps any country out by giving the people faith and confidence in the government. When at a high enough level, patriotism reduces the number of traitors and greatly reduces the risk of revolution. The problem with this is as aforementioned blind patriotism. The notion of following whatever your country does without first inspecting it and discerning if that action is morally correct.

Define "better"! A countries abilities are limited by the financial ablilities, access to resources and manpower, and the amount of support it recieves from the people of the country.

"should we instead strive for mediocrity?" Its completely your decision. If you do decide to only attain mediocrity then get and stay the hell out of my country. If you dont even have mediocrity and you see it as a first step twords your greater goal then your not only welcome in my country, but you have my support as well.

I constantly hear people complain about Mexican workers who come to the United States. If those people are coming here because they are hard workers who want a better life, they are driven, and they simply have no oppertunity then they are welcome. IF ON THE OTHER HAND they are drug dealing scum wanting to steal money from stupid rich kids and then return home, well they can die a horrible death.

________________________________________
Begin Bitch about Stupid Americans.

I've found several people ahead of me. People who have attained more education, developed more stills in certain areas, and people who simply have lived longer and used that time to attain long term goals. I have never met anyone who I've decided was more intelligent than me. I rarely find anyone who I consider less intelligent than me. Most people, from the guy whose worked at Mc. Donalds the last 30 years, the welders and lathe operators at a steel cutting plant I worked in, or my college professors with Ph.D's I find that most people have the same amount of mental ability.
People are stupid not because of their limited cognitive abilities. People are stupid because they give up, stop competing, and decide that they are not intelligent. I've been tutoring people for about 4-5 years now. I've tutored 80 year old grandmothers trying to learn how to add for the first time who have the same cognitave abilities as the 16 year old high schoolers in my college Calculous 2 class.
Never stop learning and you will never be stupid. Read a few pages a day from a good book and at the end of the year it will have such a magnified affect on your knowledge. When your trying to learn something attempt it from several different points of view. Never stop attacking a problem until you understand it. Dont be foolish! If something is beyond your abilities then first develope those abilities. Then when you have the skills to complete that challenge attack it again. Nothing can withstand an unbreakable will. Everything even the invincible, the unimaginable, the unattainable will all be conquored by a never bending will.
My conclusion is how stupid a person is directly proportional to there will to learn.

END Bitch about Stupid Americans.

Finally, I'd like to commend the polite discussion about Church and State. It wasnt brutal flaming as expected.

Lets talk about something a bit less volatile, like baking cookies. Garland uses a bit more butter in his recipie, but I use more chocolate chips.

Robot Jesus · 03-03-2005, 09:09 AM

On a personal level patriotism can be a good thing. It gives you reason to question the government and work towards making your country better. The problem with it is that it has a very different effect on the mob. The mob lacks the logic to act in this manner because is guided almost purely by emotion. When acting on the mob patriotism prevents questioning of the government, which allows the government to be more efficient since it can act more like a dictatorship, but this also makes for poor democracy and ultimately bad governments.

Feuermachtspass · 03-04-2005, 10:10 AM

what i meant by patriotism being what made this country great was that if each person votes/acts in the best interest of his/her country, the country will go on to greatness. dictatorship is obviously not in the best interest of our country, consequently a patriot will not allow it to happen.

Robot Jesus · 03-04-2005, 02:12 PM

A dictatorship can be. A good dictator is far superior in the short term to a good democracy, he can do what is best and effect sweeping change without needing to deal with red tape. That is part of the reason why nationalism is so dangerous, Hitler used it to turn the people against the democratic government because he could do things so much better that it could, it was an easy sell because he was right. Only after the fact do people see the mistake.
But back on topic

That form of patriotism is a rarity mostly because of the effort it takes to maintain it. You need to be constantly thinking to be constantly questioning. If someone is indoctrinated towards �loving their country�(cough*civics classes and a decent sized chunk of the media*cough) there more likely to make it blind love than involved love because of the effort in that kind of love. But it also has to do with when children are indoctrinated. If the first story a child learns in schools is about the great treason of 1776 (what I�m loyal to the queen) he will develop blind love if any at all, a child does not have the ability to like his country on a logical level just pure emotion.

03-02-2005, 10:31 AM	#23
Feuermachtspass Troopa Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: South Texas Posts: 53	patriotism is the very thing that makes our country or any country great. patriotism means that you are doing your very best to help the final outcome of your country. patriotism is not a bad thing. fanatacism is. i define a fanatic as one who unquestioningly obeys an entity that he believes to be superior to himself. i dont really know if that is the exact def, but its good enough for me. the more patriotism we have, the better our country will be. the better our country is, the more able we are to help our citizens. what is wrong with this picture? what is so bad about being a great nation? should we instead strive for mediocrity? that seems fairly stupid to me. and as for bush and the intertwining of religion...i disagree. we elected a man with a certain set of values. we knew that he had these values and would act in the presidency as a man of such values. those values show through. bush is a christian. does that mean that religion and state are intertwined? absolutely not. does that mean he is forcing the whole nation towards belief in god? i think not. my point is, just because bush is religious, doesnt mean that he is forcing religion onto the country. he is acting as any other president, religious or otherwise, would act: doing what he feels is right. EDIT: i mention this to show that i do not believe that bush is violating the sep of church and state. after posting, i reread it and took quite a bit out in the interest of better following the rules, and i believe this post is in compliance with them __________________ There is nothing quite like the joy of flying on the wings of your dreams...except perhaps the joy of watching a dreamer who has no place to land except in the ocean of reality. :bmage: Last edited by Feuermachtspass; 03-02-2005 at 10:41 AM.

03-02-2005, 11:09 AM	#24
Veritas Lvl8 Gamer/Lvl3 MaoPlayer Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Posts: 155	For the last time "Seperation of Church and State" appears nowhere in the Constitution. The idea came from letters between Thomas Jefferson and some of his friends. The idea was to stop the goverenment from requiring its citizens to follow a certain religion, not this current idea were anything even resembling Christian ideals is rejected. So what if Bush gets some pro-Christian items turned into laws. If it really bothers people wait a couple years and get a different president to change them back. That's why we only have 4 year terms. And Robot Jesus if the level of patriotism really bothers you that much just wait a couple years. By then I think it will be really hard to find anyone who gives a damn. __________________ Dr. Thorpe: Next time some wide-eyed foreign kid with dreams of liberty in his eyes asks me what it's like to live in America, I'm going to use this image to permanently shatter his illusions. Zack: "Hong Phan, you've got big dreams about liberty and equality. Picket fences and apple pie. That's not real. The real America is getting a cartoonishly bad full-back tattoo of a has-been professional sports entertainer that spreads out and distorts as you grow inexorably fatter."

03-02-2005, 02:00 PM	#26
Napoleon98 He Who Is Called I Were Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Texas Posts: 252	Ok, first of all yes this is a bit misleading as it implies that the USA is a facist state, or very close... Wem ay be moving in that direction, but we are far from it, or atleast I'd like to think so... "Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel. " -Samuel Johnson I gotta say, there is nothign wrong with a little patriotism, but once it gets to a certain point it is just anoying and wrong. Having love for your country is one thing, but having unconditional love and respect when it is clearly wrong is jsut stupid. There are hundreds, possibly thousands of quotes from senate members and famous americans alike that basically say "America is the best no matter what happens or what is done." That is a WRONG ATTITUDE! I can't find the quote atm, but it went something like "A true patriot will not stand by hsi country when it is in the wrong, he will fix it and destroy what is worng about it so that it will be reborn a new and better country, free from its former shame." Which is what we should do, Americans should not stand blindly by and let their country go to shit (not saying they are, but defiantely getting close). When you look at the scandels and crimes against humanity in the prison camps and with the POW's, its not soo much that they weren't help responsible (and for what they did they really only got a slap on the wrist) its teh fact that it happened. They are the soldiers of America and they represent us in times of war (like it or not some dude out in Iraq is representing you and me), and as representatives they should have the sense not to preform such atrocious acts. They never said that the Supreme court was conservative, just that they interfered with the 2000 elections, in an unprecidented move and they decided who won. They STOPPED an election process, which is what the video and other people have been referring to. I'm pretty sure that the comment about military increases was referring to AFTER the war. And you say that NO TIME is consdiered peace time? One of the points in the video was about a Nation's obsession with national security, and by sayign its never a time of peace your sayign we should always be prepared for war, which sorta jsut makes us move clsoer to a facist state(by his definition). Sorry if it's muddled and I left stuff out, jstu realized I gotta haul ass to class so some of it may nto make sense, I'll try to post later to reorganize what I said and meant to say... __________________ :bmage: That Was Amazing. :thief: Oh, We've Done Better... Plus, Red Mage? You CanNOT Tell Him This, But He's Not Actually A Cross Dresser And He Has No Daddy Issues, I've Just Been Messing With His Head. :bmage: Wow

03-03-2005, 09:09 AM	#28
Robot Jesus Libertarian Socialist Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 377	On a personal level patriotism can be a good thing. It gives you reason to question the government and work towards making your country better. The problem with it is that it has a very different effect on the mob. The mob lacks the logic to act in this manner because is guided almost purely by emotion. When acting on the mob patriotism prevents questioning of the government, which allows the government to be more efficient since it can act more like a dictatorship, but this also makes for poor democracy and ultimately bad governments. __________________ We are all atheists about most of the gods that humanity has ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further. ---Richard Dawkins there was only one true Christian, and he died on the cross. ---Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche These are rumors spread by the liberal, elite media. Much like civil rights and Kepler's Laws of Planetary Motion. Last edited by Robot Jesus; 03-03-2005 at 10:30 AM.

03-04-2005, 10:10 AM	#29
Feuermachtspass Troopa Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: South Texas Posts: 53	what i meant by patriotism being what made this country great was that if each person votes/acts in the best interest of his/her country, the country will go on to greatness. dictatorship is obviously not in the best interest of our country, consequently a patriot will not allow it to happen. __________________ There is nothing quite like the joy of flying on the wings of your dreams...except perhaps the joy of watching a dreamer who has no place to land except in the ocean of reality. :bmage:

03-02-2005, 04:59 AM	#22
Meister Pure joy Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Germany Posts: 10,689	As I said in Adoria's thread, you'll have to avoid the religious aspects of the matter in this discussion. We know religious discussions, and especially the one about seperation of church and state, as high quality flame war starters.

03-02-2005, 11:22 AM	#25
Meister Pure joy Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Germany Posts: 10,689	Last time I'm gonna say it. Knock it off with the Church/State separation issue. There's enough other stuff to debate in that movie. (All efforts to comply with the rules have been noticed. And I ain't kidding about the "last time" thing.)

03-04-2005, 02:12 PM	#30
Robot Jesus Libertarian Socialist Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 377	A dictatorship can be. A good dictator is far superior in the short term to a good democracy, he can do what is best and effect sweeping change without needing to deal with red tape. That is part of the reason why nationalism is so dangerous, Hitler used it to turn the people against the democratic government because he could do things so much better that it could, it was an easy sell because he was right. Only after the fact do people see the mistake. But back on topic That form of patriotism is a rarity mostly because of the effort it takes to maintain it. You need to be constantly thinking to be constantly questioning. If someone is indoctrinated towards �loving their country�(coughcivics classes and a decent sized chunk of the mediacough) there more likely to make it blind love than involved love because of the effort in that kind of love. But it also has to do with when children are indoctrinated. If the first story a child learns in schools is about the great treason of 1776 (what I�m loyal to the queen) he will develop blind love if any at all, a child does not have the ability to like his country on a logical level just pure emotion. __________________ We are all atheists about most of the gods that humanity has ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further. ---Richard Dawkins there was only one true Christian, and he died on the cross. ---Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche These are rumors spread by the liberal, elite media. Much like civil rights and Kepler's Laws of Planetary Motion.