The Very Big Final Fantasy XIII Thread

[Nique]

maybe I'm just tolerant of the character design in this game because the last FF I played was FFX, which was pretty terrible character design-wise. This is certainly a step above that.

Really? For me I'm ok if we're gonna go 'non-functional, but distinctive' rather than 'non-functional and indistinct'. I'll give you Lulu though. The lady lives on a tropical island and wears fur and leather dress made of belts.

[Kim]

Really? For me I'm ok if we're gonna go 'non-functional, but distinctive' rather than 'non-functional and indistinct'. I'll give you Lulu though. The lady lives on a tropical island and wears fur and leather dress made of belts.

Looks at Tidus
AAAAAAURGH

Looks at Wakka
AAAAAAAAAAAAAURGHFRGLEBLERGH

Looks at every Al-Bhed in the game
*HEADDESK*

[Mirai Gen]

FFX-2 isn't much better.

Booty shorts and a skimpy-top with a tattoo-like thing in the center? Hmm, it's missing...something.

Ahah! An inexplicable hood and a big blue/white Victorian assfluff thing! Perfect!

[Nique]

Wakka in terms of his outfit? Eh. Hair? Maybe.

And Tidus? I dunno were the Lederhosen really that bad? I didn't think so.

I mean, I should say I get where you're coming from. I sort of like the colorful outfits though. Anything too over the top just comes across to me as more amusing than irritating.

Maybe they should stop having characters wear the same thing at all times though anyway though? I mean what if at some point in the story Tidus and Yuna are going out to a nice dinner or something? She might be ok but he's going to look like a horse's ass.

[Kim]

Wakka in terms of his outfit? Eh. Hair? Maybe.

And Tidus? I dunno were the Lederhosen really that bad? I didn't think so.

I mean, I should say I get where you're coming from. I sort of like the colorful outfits though. Anything too over the top just comes across to me as more amusing than irritating.

Then I don't see what you have against FFXIII's outfits. It's like Nomura couldn't stop drawing.

Rest of the FFXIII team:
"Nomura! Nomura! Stop! Stop drawing that character!"

Nomura (in a fit of pained tears): "I- I can't! My hand won't stop moving!"

FFXIII team: "Nomura, you have an addiction. You need professional help."

[bluestarultor]

Then I don't see what you have against FFXIII's outfits. It's like Nomura couldn't stop drawing.

Rest of the FFXIII team:
"Nomura! Nomura! Stop! Stop drawing that character!"

Nomura (in a fit of pained tears): "I- I can't! My hand won't stop moving!"

FFXIII team: "Nomura, you have an addiction. You need professional help."

I'd actually say that the XIII cast is probably the least overdrawn of all his work.

[MFD]

Sazh and Lightning are the only two characters I like. And Lightning is only because she punches Snow in the face. Like, alot. Vanille isn't so bad, but her voice is annoying and the accent is distracting.

Snow pisses me off to no end. Hope is... getting better, though it'd be hard not to with his reaction to becoming l'Cie. And Fang is, well. I'm only at the beginning of Chapter 5, but she gets in on the Snow abuse so I'd be hard-pressed not to like her.

[EVILNess]

I'm surprised that no one has likened Lightning's half cape to Tidus' famous half pants or Yuna's half skirt from 10-2.

[MFD]

... I thought it was just a narrow cape...

[Kerensky287]

I thought it was a scarf. Scarves (http://api.ning.com/files/zcHJavC0bwagNU7W1JE*lcRD*LU5wNVgEDIOI4RHw8pNjcTJ1B XFg6Fe4uXpNEPHo5cmv-KA2yXGh7A3KcAuen7cfXLoMG8p/shinobi.jpg) are (http://static.gamesradar.com/images/mb/GamesRadar/us/Games/M/Mega%20Man%209/Bulk%20Viewers/PS3_360_Wii/2008-09-19/Proto%20Man--article_image.jpg) badass. (http://store.drumbum.com/media/piano-keyboard-scarf.jpg)

[bluestarultor]

I always liken her to a Roman soldier in design. I mean, think about it:
- she rides a horse in Gestalt Mode
- red cape
- shin armor
- leg pouch straps reminiscent of long-strapped sandals

It's not exact or anything, but it's enough to give a hint.

[Kim]

I'd actually say that the XIII cast is probably the least overdrawn of all his work.

I dunno, sometimes I look at stuff like Tidus' half-pants or whatever and wonder if he never finished drawing them.

[Nique]

Then I don't see what you have against FFXIII's outfits. It's like Nomura couldn't stop drawing.

Yes but they all seem strangely lifeless. I looked at Terra/Cecil/Cloud/Vincent/Sqaull/Vivi/Tidus/Auron etc and thought 'oh that looks cool/interesting' FFXIII? Meh.

[EVILNess]

It's still all belts and zippers.

[Melfice]

Right now, the characters almost seem like "homages" to previous characters.
Lightning? That's Cloud. Maybe a liiiiittle bit of Squall there too.
Vanille? (Also, stupid way of pronouncing that word! Ugh!) That's Rikku, it seems.
Snow? He reminds me of Zell a bit.
I could go on, but I won't.

Also, I like the character designs. They're pretty cool, and I had to do a retake when I saw Nomura drew it. It seems so unlike him, but maybe that's me.

[The Artist Formerly Known as Hawk]

Yes but they all seem strangely lifeless. I looked at Terra/Cecil/Cloud/Vincent/Sqaull/Vivi/Tidus/Auron etc and thought 'oh that looks cool/interesting' FFXIII? Meh.

This.


The more I saw of this game, the more I saw of the characters, the more generic it looked, and the less interested I got. That and the fact the story sounded pretty meh to me. And the fact that there was no Ifrit in this one and Shiva turned into a lesbian motorbike. Throw in the 10 hour or whatever tutorial and suddenly the game I was massively psyched about for 2 years becomes very boring and crappy sounding.

If one of my friends gets this I might borrow it, but otherwise, not running out to buy this in any kind of hurry. I'm starting to think that maybe FF was just never my sort of game; I heard of FF7, 8 and 9 back when I was younger but never knew what they were or were about, so I never bought them. I played the FFX demo and immediately fell in love. I bought FF12 expecting the same thing only for it to be utter crap that I hated.

Yeah, Final Fantasy is seriously overated. Doubt I'll be bothered about any future games.

[Kim]

So, it occurs to me that Lightning's personality is much like a very bitchy Solid Snake. I think I'm just going to imagine all her lines in that Hayter growl and let the laughs roll from here on out. Maybe at some point Hope will ask her if she thinks love can blossom on the battlefield.

[MSperoni]

Lightning: "Final Fantasy... has changed.."

[Donomni]

Shiva turned into a lesbian motorbike.

Incestual lesbian motorbike.

Chapter 11 seems to be a massive wink at FFXI.

At first I was just thinking coincidence, but then I realized Alexander looks like a fucking Galka.

[Nique]

So, it occurs to me that Lightning's personality is much like a very bitchy Solid Snake.

Whoa wait a second what? She's got solid snake's personality but she's a bitch? Like if a dude acts that way he's badass solid snake and if a woman does it it makes her a bitchy something-something? Or are you saying that she is like solid snake except she complains more?

I don't want too make a big deal out of this but that first one? Sounds kinda messed up.

[Mirai Gen]

Lightning: "Final Fantasy... has changed.."

"Hey, that's not right! Ron Perlman from Fallout says that 'War, War never changes.'"

[Kim]

Whoa wait a second what? She's got solid snake's personality but she's a bitch? Like if a dude acts that way he's badass solid snake and if a woman does it it makes her a bitchy something-something? Or are you saying that she is like solid snake except she complains more?

She's a Solid Snake personality, hardened war veteran super serious all the time blah di blah di blah, but she bitches a lot. Most of the characters in this game do a lot of bitching, regardless of gender. She is Solid Snake, but if Solid Snake was bitchier. It is not me saying she's a bitch because she has a vagina. It is me saying she is bitchy because she, like many an FF character, dedicates much of her dialogue to bitching.

[Mirai Gen]

Solid Snake never punched someone for nearly no reason.

I mean I haven't even played hardly any of FF13 and that still was like, "Wait, what?"

[MFD]

No, Snow deserved it.

HE ALWAYS DOES.

[Kim]

Not as badly as Hope deserves a good, old fashioned shitkicking.

[Azisien]

I had asserted rather early in the game that the "mini-game" of the game should just be a Fight Night clone where you get to senselessly beat the living shit out of any of the cast. It would sure beat chocobo breeding, and I liked chocobo breeding!

[Regulus Tera]

I think the Nomura designs in this game are actually good. They may feel like rip-offs of his previous works at times, but they are a lot more subdued than in the past. Lightning, despite the mini-skirt, does look like a futuristic soldier. Snow looks like a douche (he is) and Hope is.. mmm okay Hope's design is pretty bland. Only Sazh seems to have gone all-out crazy. Vanille and Fang are good.

Then I don't see what you have against FFXIII's outfits. It's like Nomura couldn't stop drawing.

Rest of the FFXIII team:
"Nomura! Nomura! Stop! Stop drawing that character!"

Nomura (in a fit of pained tears): "I- I can't! My hand won't stop moving!"

FFXIII team: "Nomura, you have an addiction. You need professional help."

May I ask, which characters offend you? Because if I remember well Nomura only designed nine characters for this game.

[Kim]

http://i42.tinypic.com/jpk6ms.png

Okay, let's take it from the top.

Bandana... Okay, that's actually not too bad.

Glove... Gloves are fine, but why does his glove have a belt and a zipper. Oh wait, because it's Nomura, that's why.

Oh look, even his collar has a belt.

Why does his shirt have two zippers? What is the point of that? Also, why is his shirt under his shirt so ratty?

It's kind of hard to see in this picture, but for some reason he seems to have an elbow pad on only his left elbow. Okay...

Okay, he's wearing two belts here. A regular belt and a studded belt, except the studded belt looks like it's half of a full belt and just kind of free-hanging there. Once again... Why?

WHY DOES HIS BELT HAVE A SCARF
I- I DON'T EVEN
WHAT

And, lastly, his shoes have belts around the backside. Ooooookay, we get it Nomura. You like belts.


I actually don't mind the designs in this game. It's just looks like Nomura couldn't stop drawing and had to keep attaching some random-ass pointless detail until they physically stopped him from drawing more.


The only character designs that I hate in the game are the party from NORA, but I heard Nomura isn't to blame for those. The rest of the designs are fine, just overdone.

[MFD]

Throw in the 10 hour or whatever tutorial and suddenly the game I was massively psyched about for 2 years becomes very boring and crappy sounding.

See, now this I take issue with. The tutorial is by no means mandatory, and really just flows pretty seamlessly with the story. There's no Moogles randomly walking on-screen to show you how to use Eidolons.

Instead, they present you with a brief text tutorial when you encounter your first Eidolon, and ask you if you even want the tutorial.

It's pretty much how every tutorial goes.

[krogothwolf]

Actually, the gloves with belt+zipper are leather driving gloves. A guy at work has a pair similar to those ones so they do kind of fit the motorcycle driving moron that snow is.

[bluestarultor]

Also, the "belt" on his collar is actually snaps.

[Meister]

Plus I've totally seen jackets like that with two zippers more than once.

In pink or baby blue and on girls, okay, if you want to split hairs, fine, but then again it's Final Fantasy, isn't it. And two belts isn't so uncommon either; point is while I know what you're saying and while all the elements are there that particular character may not be a good example because as Final Fantasy characters compared to real life go he's not all that outlandish.

[Kim]

See, now this I take issue with. The tutorial is by no means mandatory, and really just flows pretty seamlessly with the story. There's no Moogles randomly walking on-screen to show you how to use Eidolons.

Instead, they present you with a brief text tutorial when you encounter your first Eidolon, and ask you if you even want the tutorial.

It's pretty much how every tutorial goes.

No, it's still bullshit tutorial nonsense because you can't level or anything for the first two hours (and even then the game limits how much you can level and in what classes, though it gets better later on), you can't level your equipment for the first five hours, you don't have eidolons for any characters for the first eight hours (and I'm still waiting on eidolons for *most* of my party), etc.

The first five hours at bare minimum are absolutely fucking terrible in every goddamn way, and it's only when the combat opens up to actually being almost fun that the game becomes playable, rather than pure shit. The writing in the beginning is also pretty terrible, but it's leveled up to being boring. Yes, the game's writing being boring is an improvement over how it started.

[Melfice]

Plus I've totally seen jackets like that with two zippers more than once.

In pink or baby blue and on girls, okay, if you want to split hairs, fine, but then again it's Final Fantasy, isn't it. And two belts isn't so uncommon either; point is while I know what you're saying and while all the elements are there that particular character may not be a good example because as Final Fantasy characters compared to real life go he's not all that outlandish.

I think that I've seen men's double-zipper jackets while I was working in a clothing warehouse a good while back. So it's really not all that weird for men either.

Anyway, like I said earlier: If I hadn't seen his name in the credits, I wouldn't have thought this was Nomura's work at all. It's some of the most normal looking clothes he's drawn. Probably ever.

[Art of Hilt]

WHY DOES HIS BELT HAVE A SCARF
I- I DON'T EVEN
WHAT


The belt has very strong opinions on Palestine.

[EVILNess]

That "elbow pad" is on his upper arm and actually is his weapon.

[Meister]

That "elbow pad" is on his upper arm and actually is his weapon.
Yeah, I'm prepared to argue the gloves and the jacket and all but that is just weird. I'm picturing something like Macho Man Randy Savage, amidst all the futuristic weaponry and magic, just elbow-dropping Malboros and Tonberrys left and right.

[EVILNess]

Yeah, I'm prepared to argue the gloves and the jacket and all but that is just weird. I'm picturing something like Macho Man Randy Savage, amidst all the futuristic weaponry and magic, just elbow-dropping Malboros and Tonberrys left and right.

It's some kind of machine that increases his strength so he can punch things with his bare hands.

[MFD]

No, it's still bullshit tutorial nonsense because you can't level or anything for the first two hours (and even then the game limits how much you can level and in what classes, though it gets better later on),

Oh, OK. I thought you meant just the tutorials in general. I dunno, though. I didn't really notice not being able to level up. You weren't l'Cie yet, therefore you couldn't do anything interesting. There's really no leveling in the game except for Job Role levels, and you don't start getting different roles for awhile in the game.

you can't level your equipment for the first five hours, you don't have eidolons for any characters for the first eight hours (and I'm still waiting on eidolons for *most* of my party), etc.

Again, I missed nothing about leveling equipment. In fact, all I did was question all the components I had acquired. Oh, and waiting until that point was fine, because then I had tons of Components to level my weapons.

Also, your timing is so off. I used no walkthrough, and in six hours I was at the end of my first disc. I can't specify exactly when I got Odin and learned to use him. I'd say a more conservative estimate would be two and three hours, respectively, though, for leveling items and getting your first two Eidolons. I'll admit I'm still waiting on a third as of Chapter 6, though.

Also, while you were waiting for all that stuff I was, goshdarnit, enjoying the game.

The first five hours at bare minimum are absolutely fucking terrible in every goddamn way, and it's only when the combat opens up to actually being almost fun that the game becomes playable, rather than pure shit.

Huh? I enjoyed the first dungeon, which I assume is what you meant by "the first five hours" (somehow you tend to exaggerate playtimes). And combat opens up maybe an hour into the game. I mean, jeez, dood. FFV didn't start you out with Crystals, FFVI didn't start you out with Magicite, and FFVII didn't start you with Materia. You could argue that combat didn't open up for an hour or so in those games, as well. Get a grip. It takes you maybe an hour to become l'Cie.

The writing in the beginning is also pretty terrible, but it's leveled up to being boring. Yes, the game's writing being boring is an improvement over how it started.

I dunno, I think Sazh is written pretty well. Vanille, too. Her only problem is the voice actress. Hope and Snow are annoying. Lightning is... well, not much of a talker.

Also, I'm not sure how the game's writing relates to your hatred of "the tutorial section".

To wit! I don't see how "before the combat system opened up" is any worse than any other Final Fantasy game "before the combat system opened up." The writing is subjective, but I enjoyed myself playing the game, and will continue to do so. Feel free to not enjoy the game and play for more than eight hours despite the fact that you hate it.

[Kim]

Because "before the game opens up" in FFXIII means AUTOBATTLEAUTOBATTLEAUTOBATTLE at worst and ATTACTATTACKATTACKATTACKBLITZ!ATTACKATTACKATTACK at best. It's boring, incredibly repetitive, and the reason not being able to level roles or equipment yet is such a big deal is being able to do that that it would be the sole motivation to do these battles, so without it, the battles are even more of a pointless, annoying waste of time than they were already.

Sazh is likable. I think I'm still in chapter six. Unfortunately for Sazh they decided that telling what happened to him was better than really showing it, so the only scene that might have emotionally involved me in the experience was a let down. The other characters are boring.

The bad writing has nothing to do with the gameplay, but the writing was at its worst during the early bits, so it serves to make a bad section even worse. They give you several "oh no somebody died" bits in the first hour, which causes you to feel nothing, because the only characters it affects are characters who are still completely unlikable. I don't care that Serah died, because I don't care about Snow or Lightning, and I don't know Serah at all so I can't really care about her either. I don't care that Hope's mom died, because I fucking hate Hope, and I know nothing about her or their relationship, so I can't really feel for her. Both of these moments fall to pieces because the pacing is complete and utter shit. Since these things are the primary motivations for several characters, this is very bad. So, the first couple hours of gameplay establish that I don't like the characters, I don't like the gameplay, I don't care about the motivations of the characters, and I don't even know what the fuck is going on half the time.

FFXIII seriously has one of the worst introductory sections I have seen in my life.


Feel free to not enjoy the game and play for more than eight hours despite the fact that you hate it.

The game is better now. Still not that great, but better. Besides, if I had a choice, I'd be playing Persona 4. Or Infinite Space. Or Pokemon SoulSilver. I don't really have a choice.

[EVILNess]

Geez NonCon, it seems to me you have just decided to hate the game.

[MFD]

Because "before the game opens up" in FFXIII means AUTOBATTLEAUTOBATTLEAUTOBATTLE at worst and ATTACTATTACKATTACKATTACKBLITZ!ATTACKATTACKATTACK at best.

... Um. That's FFV before the Crystals and FFVII before Materia. FFVI at least had everyone's special abilities.

[Kim]

... Um. That's FFV before the Crystals and FFVII before Materia. FFVI at least had everyone's special abilities.

But they have the incentive of you gaining levels and money for new equipment and all that jazz. There is a reason for the battles. They serve a purpose. The early battles in this game don't. Besides, I'm not going to defend FFV, which I have never played, and FFVII, which I played so long ago I can no longer remember it clearly.

Geez NonCon, it seems to me you have just decided to hate the game.

Because the idea that an FF title would be bad is just sooooo bizzare. *looks at FFII and FFVIII* Oh wait. Guess not.

[Melfice]

Because the idea that an FF title would be bad is just sooooo bizzare. *looks at FFII and FFVIII* Oh wait. Guess not.

VIII was bad?
It was certainly one of the weaker games, but bad? Nah... It just did some things weird and stupid.

Besides, if I had a choice, I'd be playing Persona 4. Or Infinite Space. Or Pokemon SoulSilver. I don't really have a choice.

You always have a choice in everything.
I assume you meant that you chose to/were tasked with review(ing) the game for GPD, but even then. If you have such a chore* with the game, you could pass it off to somebody else?

* Exaggeration. You are admitting you're liking the game better now.

[Kim]

VIII was bad?
It was certainly one of the weaker games, but bad? Nah... It just did some things weird and stupid.

I'm mostly upset with VIII because I felt it had possibly the most potential of the games, and what we got was so disappointing.

you could pass it off to somebody else?

Nah, man, I'm saving that privilege for when Kingdom Hearts: Birth by Sleep comes out.

[bluestarultor]

NonCon, I hate to say this, but if it really took you that long to become a l'Cie, I really don't know how you managed. Phantom and I did it in what I'd guess was an hour or so, tops.

There are valid reasons to hate on the game (we're stuck on a stupidly hard boss), but you're not really making much sense in some of your complaints. I'll agree the character designs are a bit odd, and specifically that they're mostly bland. I'll also agree that it was confusing and off-putting at first to not be rewarded for your battles, but after it kicks in, you have the benefit of all party members gaining CP, even if they're not around, so nobody falls behind, and it doesn't take THAT long. The writing is okay, enough to keep me interested, but not winning any awards, Vanille's VA gets better as time goes on, and while none of the characters has really totally turned around for us so far, Phantom and I at least are more forgiving of them.

To keep it in perspective, remember I rate casts these days on how tolerable they are, because I'm not holding out for good, and XIII's cast is hovering somewhere around the point I can at least understand most of them, if not around the point where they're interacting well, depending on character. I think part of the problem is visual age, because it doesn't come off right with Sazh calling Vanille a kid until you realize she's only seventeen and not in the anime sense of seventeen where she's already been piloting a Gundam or whatnot for five years and has any real experience. She's still an incredible ditz, but I'm a bit more forgiving because part of it is because she knows way more than she lets on and kind of hides behind it and plays it up for her own sanity, which is more than I can say for Selphie in FF8, who was constantly wearing on mine and doesn't even have an excuse.


TL;DR: I get not liking the cast. Some of them are pretty bad and getting better doesn't bring them up to good so far. I also get not liking the designs and not liking the slow intro to the full game, but I don't get the times you're spouting off.

[Yumil]

I'm mostly upset with VIII because I felt it had possibly the most potential of the games, and what we got was so disappointing.

http://squallsdead.com/

That theory helps me forgive a lot of the unneeded twists(orphanage for one)

[Kim]

@Blues: I don't pay attention to how far I am in the game. I pretty much pulled those numbers out of my ass, based on how long it felt like everything took.

@Everyone else: As for the character designs, I think I said multiple times that I liked some or at least didn't mind them. I just thought they were a bit overdone. Sometimes people have complaints with stuff without hating it! It happens!

I will say that even after you become a l'Cie it takes a while for the combat to start feeling really solid. I'm enjoying the combat now, though I do have nitpicks, but it took far too long to get to that point.

As for the cast, until FFXIII got here, I was playing a game with a cast that I (mostly) absolutely adored. They were well written, interesting, felt real, and were generally likable even in spite of their character flaws. FFXIII's cast after that just doesn't compare. Sazh is good, though the mediocre writing kept his backstory from having the impact it otherwise could have, unless they fix that later.

At the point I am at in the game, it isn't really bad, mostly because the combat redeems it, but it certainly isn't great.

[MFD]

I still kind of had to laugh at Vanille narrating that even SHE has a dark secret.

[bluestarultor]

I still kind of had to laugh at Vanille narrating that even SHE has a dark secret.

More than one, actually. Out of all the characters, she probably is the only one who really knows what's going on, but she's not equipped to deal with it.

[Kim]

So, one complaint I have to mention about the combat is that not being able to position your party members is a pain. Sentinel is completely useless against area of effect spells when Snow decides to stand right fucking next to Hope. Every bit of damage that Hope takes during those moments is bullshit. I also find myself wishing that some of the attack animations were quicker. When the chain meter is running down, I don't like having to watch Sazh pose dramatically before casting a spell. It's rare, but there have been multiple times where the meter hit zero because the characters were too busy being stylish, or because my spell/attack took just a little bit too long to reach because my characters are too damn far away.

At the moment, these are my only real complaints against the combat.

[bluestarultor]

So, one complaint I have to mention about the combat is that not being able to position your party members is a pain. Sentinel is completely useless against area of effect spells when Snow decides to stand right fucking next to Hope. Every bit of damage that Hope takes during those moments is bullshit. I also find myself wishing that some of the attack animations were quicker. When the chain meter is running down, I don't like having to watch Sazh pose dramatically before casting a spell. It's rare, but there have been multiple times where the meter hit zero because the characters were too busy being stylish, or because my spell/attack took just a little bit too long to reach because my characters are too damn far away.

At the moment, these are my only real complaints against the combat.

I agree with this. At the very least, you should be able to move around the PC in the downtime. That way, YOU could at least try to break up the party and avoid some of the AoE spells. Sure, you'd have to start over every time Light, Snow, or Fang ran up to whack something, but they don't walk so fast that it would really unbalance things.

[Azisien]

I could see something like "suggestions" for where to be, based on the older "front/back" of previous FFs. This way you could position Sentinels to get close to enemies, and Ravagers to be further back. Too bad the game is uh...already out... :p

[Kim]

I could see something like "suggestions" for where to be, based on the older "front/back" of previous FFs. This way you could position Sentinels to get close to enemies, and Ravagers to be further back. Too bad the game is uh...already out... :p

That's kind of what I was thinking. Just set it up so the right bumper lets you select a position. "Near targeted enemy", "far from targeted enemy", "far from party" or some such.

EDIT: Please tell me that is not how Yaag dies. That may be the lamest death I've seen in the game so far. Even worse than Serah's!

[bluestarultor]

That's kind of what I was thinking. Just set it up so the right bumper lets you select a position. "Near targeted enemy", "far from targeted enemy", "far from party" or some such.

EDIT: Please tell me that is not how Yaag dies. That may be the lamest death I've seen in the game so far. Even worse than Serah's!

Are you talking about the early chapters? No, not quite. He survives that.

[Kim]

That's comforting. Just how many chapters are there anyway? I mean, I'm under the impression I'm nearing the end of the second disc, but if that's the case, this game looks to be a bit shorter than advertised.

[Kerensky287]

I'll be honest, in spite of the way damn near everyone (alright, two or three people) seems to hate this game, it's probably my favourite in the series right now. Maybe it's just because I can finally get behind both the story AND the gameplay instead of just one or the other (Story/not gameplay = FF9, gameplay/not story = FF7), but this is the most fun I remember having in a main-series FF game since the first time I played one.

[bluestarultor]

That's comforting. Just how many chapters are there anyway? I mean, I'm under the impression I'm nearing the end of the second disc, but if that's the case, this game looks to be a bit shorter than advertised.

Thirteen chapters. One of them (Gran Pulse) is probably going to be very long, due to being very open.

[Donomni]

Speaking of, is it possible to continue the main story for a bit and still do Missions later?

I just hitched a ride on Atomos, but I'm not sure how if I can still go back(It's more confusing since I see the occasional Mission-giver).

[Kim]

Anyone else see framerate issues in Nautilus, or was that just me? They weren't huge, but it was clear the game wasn't moving as smoothly as normal, and in Nautilus that made it kinda disorienting.

[Azisien]

Anyone else see framerate issues in Nautilus, or was that just me? They weren't huge, but it was clear the game wasn't moving as smoothly as normal, and in Nautilus that made it kinda disorienting.

Tiny bit. Only time I saw slowdown was at that huge group of people near the spawn/entrance.

[Ape Boy]

Taken from Joystiq, according to Square-Enix:

Taking into account European sales, Final Fantasy XIII has "recorded the largest first-week sales in franchise history."

Something like a million in the first week.

Good. Now make more, make them quicker, make them better, and make them for 360

[MFD]

I have to say: the end of Chapter 8 completely blew me away.

Also: as much as I've been defending Sazh as not a stereotype, did they have to give him a lowrider eidolon?

[Kim]

I always thought it looked like a really big go-cart.

[Ape Boy]

I have to say: the end of Chapter 8 completely blew me away.

Also: as much as I've been defending Sazh as not a stereotype, did they have to give him a lowrider eidolon?

It's only racist if you yell "WATCH OUT! DRIVE-BY!" every time you use it.

...Which I do.

[Aldurin]

All I got to say about this is, being a cheap bastard who prefers open-source games (free) and sees nothing but crap rpg's on the Nintendo website, I gotta say I felt I got my money's worth on this.

My only learning curve is that Final FantasyXIII is freakin' long. I've been playing it for about 5 days (the amount of time it takes me to complete a game if not see that the end of it is close) and I haven't even seen all of the stuff mentioned in the manual, and there are still some clips from the trailer that haven't popped up yet (I think I'm like chapter 7 now or something. Whatever chapter the Nautilus stage is on.)

[Kim]

Nautilus is chapter eight. jRPGs are generally really long. Hell, from what I hear, FFXIII is only about forty to fifty hours long. Persona 3 was eighty.

[Aldurin]

Nautilus is chapter eight. jRPGs are generally really long. Hell, from what I hear, FFXIII is only about forty to fifty hours long. Persona 3 was eighty.

Damn, I thought only handheld games should be that long (Anyone ever know what is defined as truly completing a Pokemon game?)

With the two Eidelons for Snow and Lightning, I gotta say that the Shiva Sisters get into a too "close" position when they go into motorcycle mode and with Odin, to quote Geoff from Achievement Hunter, "And then it turns into My Little Pony." It is still a level up from other RPG's (maybe that's why it's lasted for 13 games with a bajillion genre offshoots.)

[Tev]

Damn, I thought only handheld games should be that long (Anyone ever know what is defined as truly completing a Pokemon game?)
Catching them all?

[bluestarultor]

Catching them all?

Catching them all, beating the Elite Four, and then leveling every Pokemon in the Pokedex to 100. After that, there's nothing left to do.

[Tev]

Catching them all, beating the Elite Four, and then leveling every Pokemon in the Pokedex to 100. After that, there's nothing left to do.Catch them all as shinnies and level them all to 100?

[EVILNess]

Who got pokemon in my Final Fantasy?

[Azisien]

Catching them all, beating the Elite Four, and then leveling every Pokemon in the Pokedex to 100. After that, there's nothing left to do.

Nonsense, each species has at least two, often three, viable builds!

[Tev]

Who got pokemon in my Final Fantasy?

Damn, I thought only handheld games should be that long (Anyone ever know what is defined as truly completing a Pokemon game?)

I was about to say you did but then I realized it was the other Evil...

[Aldurin]

I was about to say you did but then I realized it was the other Evil...

Innocent. You guys continued it.

[bluestarultor]

Man, Phantom and I are in Gran Pulse now and I just have to say this:

Hope: Wow, this is pretty.
Vanille: Yeah, I told you we'd come here together!
Hope: WTF!? WHEN!?
Vanille: Just kidding! I tell so many lies, it's hard to keep track!
Hope: S'okay. Maybe you did. BTW, I like you.
Vanille: OH SHIT!
Hope: NOW WE'RE EVEN, SUCKER!
Vanille: YOU LITTLE TURD!

Phantom and I laughed for like 5 minutes. XD

[MFD]

You spoilered where you were, but not the mock dialogue? Really?

[Kim]

ARGH I hate the plot. ARGH ARGH ARGH

It's like the malformed offspring of X, XII, and FFT. I get the honest to god impression Toriyama was trying to do either an homage or just straight up ripping them off, but it's all so... awful. Dumb dumb dumb.

And why can everyone understand the chocobo? WHY? That's... ARGH

I honestly don't see what the real differences between Pulse and Cocoon are, visually. I mean, they enter the ark, and they're all "Wow, this is weird. It's all Pulse and whatever." I'm sitting there thinking, "You know, it's not that different, you guys." Then it goes to Gran Pulse, and it shows off how different it is, and I respond, "Big naturey place really doesn't have the impact it otherwise would have had I not already been in a rainforest."

And fucking hell that conversation Blues mentioned. Quite literally one of the worst bits of video game dialogue I have heard in months. AAAAAAUGH THIS GAME

[Kerensky287]

You spoilered where you were, but not the mock dialogue? Really?

Why would he spoiler that? It doesn't actually happen in the game. And since he spoilered the location, for all you know, she could have been lying that she promised him they'd go to the goddamn MOON.

[Kim]

The game just made me walk down an area to watch a cutscene. The cutscene had nothing to do with the area it took place in. The cutscene revealed nothing that couldn't have been revealed as part of another cutscene. The cutscene had no dramatic plot twists or anything. I don't have a problem with this. I have a problem with the game doing this, and telling me to go back where I just fucking came from immediately after the cutscene. It was a pointless detour to pad for length.

fuckyoufuckyoufuckyoufuckyougame

[Ape Boy]

You bitch a lot.

Not saying all of it is misplaced (about half, against my opinions), but there has been a lot of it.

[Kim]

When I'm mad at the game is generally the only time I really feel anything about the game. I mean, the combat is good, but it's getting boring through repetition, and the rest I *usually* don't like.

[Ape Boy]

Eh, fair enough. As I mentioned, I don't have half the problems with the game you do, really enjoying it a lot. To each his own, just noticed you had a lot negative about the game.

[MFD]

I don't know about people comparing the plot to Ten or Twelve. I played Twelve but gave up at some point when I realized the Quickenings were the only strategy to have.

Thirteen is pretty awesome plotwise. I mean, sure... it's not subtle by any means. But Sazh's story is probably the worst thing (in a good way!) that I've experienced in a video game. Fullstop. And Vanille's secret? Pretty damn subtle about it, but makes perfect damned sense afterwards. From her accent being Aussie (Pulse) trying to hide behind a bad American (Coccoon) accent, to her randomly finding a weapon she knows how to use on the Pulse fal'Cie at the beginning, and her pseudo-primitive tribal
outfit.

I dunno. Finding the game's plot derivative seems dishonest to me.

[Kim]

I played Twelve but gave up at some point when I realized the Quickenings were the only strategy to have.

Compare with the second half of the game where the quickenings are almost entirely useless except as a cheap way to try and get your MP back every once in a while, since the damage they doesn't really improve all that much. In fact, that they aren't that useful in the long run is one of my greater complaints about XII.

Thirteen is pretty awesome plotwise.

Unless you're on Disc Three already, the plot hasn't really started yet. Who knows, maybe you'll like the plot twist. I didn't.

A lot of my complaints about the plot have to do with the execution. Stuff that could have worked as a general idea ends up not working because terrible dialogue, and stuff not making sense or being needlessly convoluted. That and the villains have pretty much zero characterization so blah at them.

But Sazh's story is probably the worst thing (in a good way!) that I've experienced in a video game. Fullstop.

It was well done and pretty great, but had its problems.
Specifically... You know Sazh isn't actually dead because he can't die because he's a main character. The execution of the bit where his son became a l'Cie really didn't work, so the later stuff where his son becomes a crystal and all that jazz doesn't have nearly the emotional impact it could have had had that earlier bit been done properly.

Pretty damn subtle about it

Really? I guessed that fairly quickly. This isn't me bragging about my powers of perception, as I don't think they're all that good. I'm just saying I thought it was a fairly obvious plot twist that most people would catch on to at least ten hours before the reveal. Might've been less obvious if Vanille would shut up. X would have been better without a narrator, and the same goes for XIII. It's just... no good.

[bluestarultor]

I don't know about people comparing the plot to Ten or Twelve. I played Twelve but gave up at some point when I realized the Quickenings were the only strategy to have.

Thirteen is pretty awesome plotwise. I mean, sure... it's not subtle by any means. But Sazh's story is probably the worst thing (in a good way!) that I've experienced in a video game. Fullstop. And Vanille's secret? Pretty damn subtle about it, but makes perfect damned sense afterwards. From her accent being Aussie (Pulse) trying to hide behind a bad American (Coccoon) accent, to her randomly finding a weapon she knows how to use on the Pulse fal'Cie at the beginning, and her pseudo-primitive tribal
outfit.

I dunno. Finding the game's plot derivative seems dishonest to me.

Honestly, the similarities to either 10 OR 12 are marginal at best. You can't even really claim a mix. The only real parallel is that in all three, you're running from the government or some semblance thereof. But then that goes for pretty much any FF title, or at least half of them. You don't really have the political drama of 12, nor do you really have the same personal antagonism as in 10. In fact, the focus is almost entirely on the party's personal strife, which is pretty unique in the series. They don't have a clearly-defined goal in need of immediate attention and spend most of the game actively resisting being pushed into doing things they don't want to do. I can't really think of any other member of the series that goes in that direction.

It may not be the BEST direction to go, but it's certainly a unique one.

[Kim]

Okay big spoilery "How FFXIII is aping plot points from previous FF titles" list... Are you ready? 3, 2, 1, GO!

Final Fantasy Tactics: Leaders of a false religion are trying to bring back a dead god.
FFXIII: The leader of Cocoon is trying to bring back a dead god, and his design is very obviously inspired by religious imagery.

FFX: Everyone mindlessly follows the religion, which is false and manipulates people's hatred and fear to pit them against the Al Bhed.
FFXIII: Everyone mindlessly follows the leader of Cocoon, who is a lying douchebag and manipulates people's hatred and fear to pit them against Pulse. Also, religious imagery.

FFXII: Occuria
FFXIII: Fal'Cie

FFX: Rikku is an Al Bhed, a race the religion denounces and pits its members against. She joins the party, but starts off hiding the truth of her Al Bhed heritage.
FFXIII: Vanille is from Pulse, something the leader of Cocoon denounces and pits the people against. She joins the party, but starts off hiding the truth that she's from Pulse.

FFVII: Avalanche
FFXIII: Nora

There are probably a bunch more, but I'm lazy. There are also plenty of other smaller similarities, but... well... the laziness.

I could probably throw in a joke about the Eidolons ripping off Persona, but I worry people would think I was being serious about that one.

EDIT for another one...

FFX: Summoners die after completing their journey to defeat Sin.
FFXIII: l'Cie turn into crystal statues after completing their focus.

[bluestarultor]

There's a mite difference between pulling plot points/tropes and pulling actual bits of plot. Also, a couple of those are pretty well digging for different reasons. Gods = gods? Duh? I know it's an oversimplification, but then so is the comparison. And NORA is so minor that it hardly even counts.

I'll agree to some of those similarities, but if your argument is really that it's pulling from as many as four other games in such limited blatancy, it really is a weaker argument than it could be. Hell, 9 pulled from way more than that and really only got called out because of how obvious it was, and even then, it was arguably in actual homage/celebration territory.


EDIT @ your edit: Not only is that one a stretch, but it's not even true. Summoners don't die as a direct result of defeating SIN. Rather, someone else does as a sacrifice to become their Final Aeon. It's just such a high-powered battle that the chances of survival aren't very good for anyone involved.

Edit again: Never mind, did a double-check and you're right. It's still a bit of a stretch, though. Also, the crystallization process is, in fact, reversible, which is why it's considered immortality. You'll find out more about this later, I'm sure.

[Kim]

There's a mite difference between pulling plot points/tropes and pulling actual bits of plot. Also, a couple of those are pretty well digging for different reasons. Gods = gods? Duh? I know it's an oversimplification, but then so is the comparison. And NORA is so minor that it hardly even counts.

Fal'Cie and Occuria aren't just the same because they're gods. They're gods who use and manipulate the entire human race to lead the world down the path they think it should go, and in both games one of the main big deals is that the heroes are putting a stop to the gods lording over the entire course of human history. I just figured it was so obvious it didn't need to be expounded upon.

Also, my problem with FFXIII bringing in stuff from previous games is less that they're doing it, and more that they're doing a really shitty job of it.

EDIT @ your edit: Not only is that one a stretch, but it's not even true. Summoners don't die as a direct result of defeating SIN. Rather, someone else does as a sacrifice to become their Final Aeon. It's just such a high-powered battle that the chances of survival aren't very good for anyone involved.

No. It kills them. The game says "Summoning the final Aeon will kill her", and it isn't a big shock because she *might* die. It's a big shock because she *will* die. As in, that is what will happen if she summons it. No alternative.

Okay. Yeah. The reason I'm comparing them is that while the cyrstalization in XIII is reversible, it's only reversible for when the Fal'Cie want you to do some other job for them. Thus the whole deal of being punished for doing what you "have" to. It's the basic underlying idea, and that's the important thing, at least to me.

[MFD]

Really? Really? "Final Fantasy VII has a group of rebels and so does FFXIII what a ripoff?"

[Kim]

FFVII has a group of rebels with a meaningless name, dedicated to defeating the existing authority which has little characterization beyond being evil because they're evil. The group itself has little characterization either, beyond that they are generic good guy rebels opposing the generic bad guys. The rebel group plays only a minor role in the story, and ceases to be relevant after the first disc. The rebel group has three boring NPCs who only show up for the first disc, and then are never heard from again. At least FFVII had the balls to kill its boring NPCs though.

Of course, the whole NORA = Avalanche thing was very minor, and hardly the focus of my argument. It was just a really obvious and pointless similarity. It was another bit of Toriyama going "Hey this previous FF had this! FFXIII should have it, too!" And that he was doing that at all was more the focus than anything.

EDIT: Am I being meaner to the game's plot than it warrants? Yes! Certainly! I make no claims to the contrary. The thing is that it just bores the hell out of me, and I find it frustrating to see these plot points in the game when I've seen similar ones before, but done better. The game isn't as bad as I make it sound, but that's because what isn't bad isn't enough for me to really get talkative about. The combat's good, but since that is the only thing you do, it is quickly wearing on my nerves.

[bluestarultor]

Welp, you heard it here, folks! Nonsie says he just likes to bitch! ;)


I'm kidding, but really, as other people have noted, a lot of the stuff you're complaining about didn't bother them/they actually liked it, and you have to admit you've been hating on the game since a year before the release, so I think you can understand why people are having problems with your arguments. Not that there aren't valid points in there, but boy who cried wolf and all. I'm sure it'll be a good anti review once you crank it out.

[Kim]

Yeah, but if I was hating on the game for no reason but to hate the game, I don't think I'd give even Sazh any credit, nor would I be liking the combat as much as I did.

[bluestarultor]

Yeah, but if I was hating on the game for no reason but to hate the game, I don't think I'd give even Sazh any credit, nor would I be liking the combat as much as I did.

BTW, did you figure out the full-bar bonuses? If you shift from one Paradigm to a similar one with a bit charged in the bar, you get an automatic full bar right off the bat. It really helps to abuse the crap out of it.

[Kim]

Yeah, I noticed. Haven't really abused it yet, because when I have haste on my guys, the length of time to change paradigms, especially if it's the first change of the battle, is almost as long, or at least feels that way.

EDIT: Also, can anyone confirm/deny if I can go back to Pulse after Chapter 11?

[Ape Boy]

Yeah, I noticed. Haven't really abused it yet, because when I have haste on my guys, the length of time to change paradigms, especially if it's the first change of the battle, is almost as long, or at least feels that way.

EDIT: Also, can anyone confirm/deny if I can go back to Pulse after Chapter 11?

It becomes almost necessary to abuse the Switch for ATB technique against some of the more powerful enemies.

That's another thing I like about the game, is that it nurtures experimentation. Sure you may lose a fight until you figure out the best strategy, but you'll spawn seconds away from what killed you, pretty much welcoming you to try again.

RE: EDIT: From what I understand, you're able to travel all around Pulse through 12-13. That may be inaccurate, but you can roam Pulse post-game.

[bluestarultor]

It becomes almost necessary to abuse the Switch for ATB technique against some of the more powerful enemies.

QFT.

Sure you may lose a fight until you figure out the best strategy, but you'll spawn seconds away from what killed you, pretty much welcoming you to try again.

Also, skippable cutscenes. Lifesaver.

[Kim]

So, what are all y'all thoughts on the monster designs in this?

The animal monsters I'm okay with. The flying things, turtles, and wolves I'm more or less fine with, even though there are details I'm not too fond of, like the wolves have like giant fucking crab claws for a face, but otherwise I'm fine with them.

Everything else though... just doesn't work. The bombs are now giant dice? "Vampires" look like really, really dumb golems. Vetalas look like... well... they don't look like Hindu spirits that possess the dead, that's for sure. It doesn't earn any points with me for having a lot of the designs of the smaller ones making it near impossible to tell which way they're facing, yet making sneaking up on them a gameplay mechanic.

Love the animal ones, but everything else is... no good.

[Kerensky287]

I love all of the monster designs except for the bird things with mouths for asses.

Also, I think I could have done without the wheel-headed Shivas and that Eidolon in the one cutscene that had a ludicrous wing-hair thing going on.

[Kim]

I dunno. I think I'd be less annoyed at some of them if they didn't take something shit out of a volcano and call it a vampire. Or take a floating... something... and call it a vetala. It's like... Why call it that if it looks nothing like it?

[Ape Boy]

The Bombs don't look quite right to me. Everything else I'm cool with to liking a lot.

[bluestarultor]

So, what are all y'all thoughts on the monster designs in this?

The animal monsters I'm okay with. The flying things, turtles, and wolves I'm more or less fine with, even though there are details I'm not too fond of, like the wolves have like giant fucking crab claws for a face, but otherwise I'm fine with them.

Everything else though... just doesn't work. The bombs are now giant dice? "Vampires" look like really, really dumb golems. Vetalas look like... well... they don't look like Hindu spirits that possess the dead, that's for sure. It doesn't earn any points with me for having a lot of the designs of the smaller ones making it near impossible to tell which way they're facing, yet making sneaking up on them a gameplay mechanic.

Love the animal ones, but everything else is... no good.

It kind of bothered me that all the spirit/demon-named ones are all bird-footed red Injuns in the middle of a rain dance instead of resembling what they're supposed to, but then I remember that this is Japan, who don't give a flying fuck about Native Americans or frankly anyone who's not Japanese, and at least they look cool when they're kicking your ass. Very fluid motion.

Bombs I'll forgive in that all the Cocoon foes are supposed to be decked out with technology for... some reason, and they seem to burn through the paneling as you piss them off and become more Bomb-like.

I have to say my main complaint with the animal-based ones is the fact that all the scaled lizards seem to have the same technological underbelly that's full of air holes and such. I can dig it for the actual "tamed" ones used by the military, but it's just weird-looking when in Pulse. Also that the scales don't actually connect.

I'm loving the Behemoths, though. Well, the pants thing is a bit weird, as is the universal ability to whip out a techno-sword, again, also in Pulse, but visually, it's a pretty strong design and a decent update for the whole "gets pissed off and stands up" bit they've had on and off for a while.

For the humans, it bugs me that they seem able to take hits so well. They can sure as hell knock you on YOUR ass, but they don't even fall over when they die, which is kind of aggravating, because they aren't so badass that you're not slapping them around numerically. It really makes it feel like your party isn't connecting with their hits when a devastating sword slash doesn't even make them flinch until their health gets lower. I'm sorry, but pain is pain, here, and you're causing it with little to no reaction.

[Drownball-Champ]

The Bombs don't look quite right to me. Everything else I'm cool with to liking a lot.

I actually liked the 20-sided die look, but it should've been an entirelt different monster. I don't see why they messed with the design, but at least it isn't wasn't a stupid looking change.

Also, if I'm on Ch7 how much longer do you think it will take to beat the game? I want to rent it again, but I'm not going to if I'm not going to be able to complete it this time around.

[Ape Boy]

Depends on how much you're going to play it in the next week. Remember, you can have up to ten days after the rental period before they charge you for the game at most places.

I'm in the midst of chapter 11 and have about 40-hours-and-change. I'm expecting to be near the 60's by the time I finally do everything I'm aiming for.

[Drownball-Champ]

I'll just have to call and ask the people at Blockbuster what their late policy is. I think I only have 10-12 hours in it so far. Maybe not even that much.

[bluestarultor]

I'll just have to call and ask the people at Blockbuster what their late policy is. I think I only have 10-12 hours in it so far. Maybe not even that much.

It's a 50-hour game. Unless you get cracking and have a ton of jars handy, you're not going to finish it in a second rental.

[Jagos]

I'll just have to call and ask the people at Blockbuster what their late policy is. I think I only have 10-12 hours in it so far. Maybe not even that much.

Coulda sworn Blockbuster changed their late policy because they were losing money to Netflix...

I looked at the Help section on Blockbuster but they're saying "bring the game back on time, ya whipper snapper!"

[Drownball-Champ]

It's a 50-hour game. Unless you get cracking and have a ton of jars handy, you're not going to finish it in a second rental.

I'll just hold off then. Save the $6 for when they have Resonance of Fate.

[MFD]

Flanborgs are awesome. All I have to say about character design.

[Kim]

Yeah, I classify them as the animal-esque type.

[bluestarultor]

Yeah, I classify them as the animal-esque type.

I'd classify them more as animate food. The yellow ones look damn tasty.

In Final Fantasy, dessert eats you! :p

[krogothwolf]

Well, that's been the largest pissant ever

First form Orphan, 3 cherab things maxed out to +45% death resistance(for a total of 135%!) And for the 3rd straight time, instant death has destroyed my party leader.....absolutely fucking ridiculous with how death owns the party leater!

I am now ticked at the game, completely ticked.

[Kim]

Two questions: Is it just me, or does Sazh have the worst stats in the party. I guess it could be accessories or something, but everyone else has like over 1000 in one stat and over 500 in another, except Lightning who has over a thousand in both stats, but Sazh only have over 500 in both. :/

Secondly, everyone else's thoughts on the final dungeon? I'm not a fan of it. It seems to drag itself out needlessly, and no plot points whatsoever seem to be happening. Not even the bosses are related to the plot. There's just magic, unexplained statues dragging everything out... because.

[bluestarultor]

Two questions: Is it just me, or does Sazh have the worst stats in the party. I guess it could be accessories or something, but everyone else has like over 1000 in one stat and over 500 in another, except Lightning who has over a thousand in both stats, but Sazh only have over 500 in both. :/

Secondly, everyone else's thoughts on the final dungeon? I'm not a fan of it. It seems to drag itself out needlessly, and no plot points whatsoever seem to be happening. Not even the bosses are related to the plot. There's just magic, unexplained statues dragging everything out... because.

Sazh's stats look low until you realize that he hits twice for every attack. He's not going to be your biggest damage-dealer, but he's not as weak as he would at first appear from the number.

That said, he's best used as a "strike" Ravager, since all elemental strikes use strength instead of magic, and even then, he just plain works best as a Synergist. He's probably the weakest link of the cast, but he's not useless.

Also, nifty trick, by using his "en-" skills on Brynhildr, it opens up several skills of other elements for her to whack foes with before you go into Gestalt. So if you happen to have him and have foes weak to lightning, ice, or water, you can still take advantage of her.

[Ape Boy]

Also greatly depends on the weapons you use. My Sazh has Magic out the ass.

[Kim]

The second final boss has Death spells. I call shenanigans!

[Bob The Mercenary]

Heh, a little something called Battlefield: Bad Motherfuckin Company 2 has kept me away from playing this. I've just now completed chapter 3. :3

[krogothwolf]

The second final boss has Death spells. I call shenanigans!

It still works on you even when you have 135% death resistance. I never minded the whole leader dies game over thing till now, since it's killed me 7 right now with instant death. I am not pleased

[MFD]

Got to disc 3. I think I preferred it when everyone only had access to certain roles. It made them unique (and Synergist Sazh was different from Synergist Hope, etc.), and now I just don't know what to do, so I'm just leveling up everyone's original roles.

Just barely got through Magic Pope fal'Cie dude boss with a strategy I crafted myself. Decimation to begin with (Rav Light, Com Fang, Syn Sazh), and Protection when I needed a medic (Med Light, Sen Fang, Syn Sazh) until Sazh buffed the party up and I used a Librascope. Then Relentless Assault (Rav Light, Com Fang, Rav Sazh) and Solidarity (Med Light, Sen Fang, Com Sazh) until I destroyed both right armorpieces.

Then I summoned Odin, staggered both left armorpieces and went into Gestalt mode. That took care of the left armorpieces, leaving the head of magic Pope fal'Cie dude. I switched between Solidarity and Cerberus until he was dead because I am convinced, convinced! that he has some sort of thing that heals his stagger instantly.

And now I'm in a dungeon specifically for grinding... should I be leveling up everyone's Roles here?

[krogothwolf]

Got to disc 3. I think I preferred it when everyone only had access to certain roles. It made them unique (and Synergist Sazh was different from Synergist Hope, etc.), and now I just don't know what to do, so I'm just leveling up everyone's original roles.

Just barely got through Magic Pope fal'Cie dude boss with a strategy I crafted myself. Decimation to begin with (Rav Light, Com Fang, Syn Sazh), and Protection when I needed a medic (Med Light, Sen Fang, Syn Sazh) until Sazh buffed the party up and I used a Librascope. Then Relentless Assault (Rav Light, Com Fang, Rav Sazh) and Solidarity (Med Light, Sen Fang, Com Sazh) until I destroyed both right armorpieces.

Then I summoned Odin, staggered both left armorpieces and went into Gestalt mode. That took care of the left armorpieces, leaving the head of magic Pope fal'Cie dude. I switched between Solidarity and Cerberus until he was dead because I am convinced, convinced! that he has some sort of thing that heals his stagger instantly.

And now I'm in a dungeon specifically for grinding... should I be leveling up everyone's Roles here?

He does, it's an ability called Destructo and i completely resets his chain gauge and he only uses it after his first stagger and it can be fairly nasty. If you never staggered him, he'll never use it.

Also those extra rolls really only give like 3 or 4 extra abilities and minimal stat growth. I have no idea it was thrown in to be honest because of the little stat growth for how much CP it costs.

[bluestarultor]

He does, it's an ability called Destructo and i completely resets his chain gauge and he only uses it after his first stagger and it can be fairly nasty. If you never staggered him, he'll never use it.

Also those extra rolls really only give like 3 or 4 extra abilities and minimal stat growth. I have no idea it was thrown in to be honest because of the little stat growth for how much CP it costs.

Actually, Destrudo still happens after you get him down to 1/4 HP. The best thing to do is wail on him to get his chain to 150% to cause a mini-Stagger that makes the attack MUCH weaker.

[Kim]

Well... I beat the game. Hmmm. Big spoilery questions, because I want to know if maybe it actually does make sense before I write my review. And yeah these are end game super spoilers.

1: Why did Jerkass McPope tell them his plan and what he wanted them to do, instead of, you know, tricking them?

2. What was the point of the Ark or Pulse areas? They didn't advance the plot, and they didn't have any real goals while they were there, except "Hey maybe we'll find a cure" but no really that's a paper thin excuse for throwing them in Pulse, and it still doesn't make sense why McPope sent them there.

3. Why can't the Fal'Cie destroy Orphan? I mean, they say they can't because they made Cocoon, but really? I dunno, that just doesn't make sense to me and seems more like a poor excuse the writer made up for why the heroes have to than a rule of the game's universe.

4. If McPope wants them to kill him and destroy Orphan, why does he fight back? Is it part of the question three nonsense?

5. "You want us to destroy Orphan but we aren't your pawns so we're gonna destroy Orphan! To save Cocoon! Even though you've said several times that doing so will destroy Cocoon!" What?

6. "He turned me into a Cie'th!" "A Cie'th?" "...I got better." Riiiiiiiiight.

7. Why and how exactly did Vanille and Fang turn into a super summon? What the hell was up with Cocoon melting at the end? What was with crystal explosions? WHAT? WHAAAAAAAAAAAT?

8. And then everyone got better from being a crystal... except Vanille and Fang... because they're lesbians I guess... RIIIIIIIIGHT.

I thought the pacing was poor early on, but the ending is just downright pure what the fuckery to the nth degree. Please help me make sense of it. When I review it, I at least want to be doing it right.

[Regulus Tera]

Well... I beat the game. Hmmm. Big spoilery questions, because I want to know if maybe it actually does make sense before I write my review. And yeah these are end game super spoilers.

1: Why did Jerkass McPope tell them his plan and what he wanted them to do, instead of, you know, tricking them?

Cause he's a SuperPope he doesn't go around beating the bush.

2. What was the point of the Ark or Pulse areas? They didn't advance the plot, and they didn't have any real goals while they were there, except "Hey maybe we'll find a cure" but no really that's a paper thin excuse for throwing them in Pulse, and it still doesn't make sense why McPope sent them there.

Filler.

3. Why can't the Fal'Cie destroy Orphan? I mean, they say they can't because they made Cocoon, but really? I dunno, that just doesn't make sense to me and seems more like a poor excuse the writer made up for why the heroes have to than a rule of the game's universe.

They're Cocoon Fal'Cie. They literally cannot do that.

4. If McPope wants them to kill him and destroy Orphan, why does he fight back? Is it part of the question three nonsense?

I'm guessing to have them retaliate?

5. "You want us to destroy Orphan but we aren't your pawns so we're gonna destroy Orphan! To save Cocoon! Even though you've said several times that doing so will destroy Cocoon!" What?

This is WE ALL KNEW EACH OTHER AND GFS MADE us forget retarded.

6. "He turned me into a Cie'th!" "A Cie'th?" "...I got better." Riiiiiiiiight.

The power of friendship and shit.

7. Why and how exactly did Vanille and Fang turn into a super summon? What the hell was up with Cocoon melting at the end? What was with crystal explosions? WHAT? WHAAAAAAAAAAAT?

That was Ragnarok.

8. And then everyone got better from being a crystal... except Vanille and Fang... because they're lesbians I guess... RIIIIIIIIGHT.

Do you have anything against lesbians?

But yeah, power of friendship and all.

[MFD]

Also those extra rolls really only give like 3 or 4 extra abilities and minimal stat growth. I have no idea it was thrown in to be honest because of the little stat growth for how much CP it costs.

So, I shouldn't bother, then. Thanks!

[bluestarultor]

Well... I beat the game. Hmmm. Big spoilery questions, because I want to know if maybe it actually does make sense before I write my review. And yeah these are end game super spoilers.

1: Why did Jerkass McPope tell them his plan and what he wanted them to do, instead of, you know, tricking them?

2. What was the point of the Ark or Pulse areas? They didn't advance the plot, and they didn't have any real goals while they were there, except "Hey maybe we'll find a cure" but no really that's a paper thin excuse for throwing them in Pulse, and it still doesn't make sense why McPope sent them there.

3. Why can't the Fal'Cie destroy Orphan? I mean, they say they can't because they made Cocoon, but really? I dunno, that just doesn't make sense to me and seems more like a poor excuse the writer made up for why the heroes have to than a rule of the game's universe.

4. If McPope wants them to kill him and destroy Orphan, why does he fight back? Is it part of the question three nonsense?

5. "You want us to destroy Orphan but we aren't your pawns so we're gonna destroy Orphan! To save Cocoon! Even though you've said several times that doing so will destroy Cocoon!" What?

6. "He turned me into a Cie'th!" "A Cie'th?" "...I got better." Riiiiiiiiight.

7. Why and how exactly did Vanille and Fang turn into a super summon? What the hell was up with Cocoon melting at the end? What was with crystal explosions? WHAT? WHAAAAAAAAAAAT?

8. And then everyone got better from being a crystal... except Vanille and Fang... because they're lesbians I guess... RIIIIIIIIGHT.

I thought the pacing was poor early on, but the ending is just downright pure what the fuckery to the nth degree. Please help me make sense of it. When I review it, I at least want to be doing it right.

Hokay, this may not be all correct, but I'll answer to the best of my ability.

1. He sees them as tools and himself as superior. He told them their actual Focus because he knew what it was. He'd orchestrated the whole thing in the first place, including bringing Fang and Vanille into Cocoon and reviving them. They were taking too long, so he gave them the answer.

2. The Ark is meant to strengthen l'Cie, and he needed them strong. After they beat the Ark, he sent them to the most hostile place he knew to further whip them into shape.

3. It goes against their own Focus. They were all given specific roles which they were obligated to follow and could not deviate from.

4. They kind of were refusing to, if I understand correctly. He was trying to force them to do it any way possible and his death awoke Orphan in the process. Kind of a "kill me or I'll kill you" thing, where just "kill me" would leave room to say no. Not 100% on this.

5. They're kind of forced into the fight, again, as I understand from FF Wiki. Orphan (also?) wants the whole world destroyed so the Maker can return, so they need to take him out to save it.

6. Anyone with a strong enough will can reverse the process. Cid Raines seems to have nearly done this previously before, you know, you killed him.

7-8. That was their Focus originally. They were given the power to form into Ragnarok so as to destroy both Cocoon and Pulse, but they only managed with Pulse and were crystallized anyway. They end the game crystallizing Cocoon to save it from crashing into Pulse and killing everyone with Ragnarok's power and are crystallized in the process.



Otherwise, check around in here and related pages for a better analysis: SPOILERS! (http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Orphan)

[The Artist Formerly Known as Hawk]

Ok so, from all you guys' experiance with this game, what would you reccomend to someone, IE me, on purchasing it?

Bearing in mind that I loved FFX more than most other games, and hated FF12, mainly due to, a boring plot and crappy side missions, but thought the combat system was "ok".

What say ye NPF?

[Kim]

I'd say it isn't worth buying. Renting maybe. FFX had a great plot that was mostly well executed. FFXIII... not so much, and none of the characters are worth getting hot and bothered over except Chocofro. Combat's great, but since there isn't anything to do other than combat, it gets tedious.

[krogothwolf]

Yeah, FF XIII story seems extremely lacking. It seems that with all the cutscene they added less gets said. It's depressing really :( Chocofro does make it some what more enjoyable. Hope and Snow will drive you nuts for most of the game. And Combat is annoying because you control one character and only one character.

[Kim]

The plot also suffers from several key details only being told via Datalog and that is a very bad thing.

Hokay, this may not be all correct, but I'll answer to the best of my ability.

1. He sees them as tools and himself as superior. He told them their actual Focus because he knew what it was. He'd orchestrated the whole thing in the first place, including bringing Fang and Vanille into Cocoon and reviving them. They were taking too long, so he gave them the answer.

2. The Ark is meant to strengthen l'Cie, and he needed them strong. After they beat the Ark, he sent them to the most hostile place he knew to further whip them into shape.

3. It goes against their own Focus. They were all given specific roles which they were obligated to follow and could not deviate from.

4. They kind of were refusing to, if I understand correctly. He was trying to force them to do it any way possible and his death awoke Orphan in the process. Kind of a "kill me or I'll kill you" thing, where just "kill me" would leave room to say no. Not 100% on this.

5. They're kind of forced into the fight, again, as I understand from FF Wiki. Orphan (also?) wants the whole world destroyed so the Maker can return, so they need to take him out to save it.

6. Anyone with a strong enough will can reverse the process. Cid Raines seems to have nearly done this previously before, you know, you killed him.

7-8. That was their Focus originally. They were given the power to form into Ragnarok so as to destroy both Cocoon and Pulse, but they only managed with Pulse and were crystallized anyway. They end the game crystallizing Cocoon to save it from crashing into Pulse and killing everyone with Ragnarok's power and are crystallized in the process.

1. Yeah, but he could have tricked them. He could have used one of his many pawns to tell them that Orphan's behind it all etc etc, but instead he pretty much gives them every reason they need to not do their Focus, which makes him an incredibly stupid villain.

2. Yeah, I get that, it's just that it's an extremely flimsy/weak excuse from a game design or storytelling perspective, and I wanted to see if there was a better one.

3. I figured out the third after making that post by reading an explanation that referenced a lot of stuff apparently in the Datalog. Annoyed that apparently I need to read the Datalog for it to make proper sense, but whatever.

4. Yeah, but why was he fighting back when what's her bucket turned into Ragnarok and was trying to kill him? And why was he fighting back when the party was already trying to kill him?

5. Yeah, except Orphan destroys Cocoon by being destroyed, so destroying it doesn't make any sense. Hell, Cocoon is even almost destroyed when they kill Orphan, making the whole thing make even less sense. And they were committed to dying if it saved Cocoon weren't they, so why are they fighting for their lives?

6. Okay fine. Still doesn't really make any sort of sense beyond "Because the game says so" but whatever.

7-8. Yeah, it just doesn't really explain why or how they turn into Ragnarok, since it didn't exactly seem like an at will thing before, but they can do it now because cutscene. Nor does that really explain why the party got better because they completed their focus but Fang and Vanille didn't.

[The Artist Formerly Known as Hawk]

Hmm, as I feared then, as boring as FF12 was. I suspected as much. Honestly the more I saw of this game and the more I heard of the plot, the less interested I became, wheras with FFX a demo of 2 sections (the opening Blitzball Sin attack and the Besaid island segment from when Kimahri attacks) were enough to make me realise that the game was worth my time and had interesting characters and a story I wanted to understand, and it was.


With FF12 I started to get bored after the first 5 hours when the plot seemed to be going nowhere and a bunch of uninteresting characters kept appearing and the party had been captured for the 3rd time and then I was unable to pilot my own airship anywhere for no explainable reason and I had to go somewhere to do something and all the sidequests were "go here kill that talk to them then walk all the way back", type things.

If 13 is more of 12 then I think I was right in not bothering.

[Kim]

If 13 is more of 12 then I think I was right in not bothering.

Haha... haha... no. XIII is like XII to the extent that... they aren't turnbased I guess. They are vastly different games.

[The Artist Formerly Known as Hawk]

But still have boring plots? Really I'm not bothered what the combat system is like, so long as the story keeps me interest for 50+ hours or whatever it is, and it doesn't look like it will.

[Kim]

You didn't get very far into FFXII, did you?

[The Artist Formerly Known as Hawk]

I got as far as going to mt.something-or-other, then to the forest of whatever, but realised about an hour before that that I had no clue what was going on and that Vann and Penelo had NO reason to be hanging around with the other guys, that Ashe was all about restoring herself to the throne, Basch was gona help her do that for... some reason, and Balthier and Fran were... I dunno, expecting payment for services rendered?? And in this time, one former allied had betrayed us, not sure why, and we'd been captured 3 times and escaped from 2 seperate super-dreadnought class airships run by the most incompotent and least villainous villains I've ever seen. Guys are worse than the average stormtrooper.

Yeah, like I said, plot was crappily done and bored the shit out of me and the sidequests were no better either. Throw in shitty summons that were useless and hard as nails bosses and a boring never ending grinding requiremens and yeah, I gave up.

[Kim]

It's okay Hawk, sometimes I say crazy things, too.

But seriously don't get FFXIII. Get Shin Megami Tensei: Nocturne. Get Persona 4. Get Disgaea 2 PSP. Get Vagrant Story. I could make a big long list of jRPGs that are far superior to XIII in almost every, if not every, way.

Plot doesn't really seem to know where it's going half the time, it has more filler than in Bleach, you have to read the Datalog for the plot to almost make sense, the characters go through a lot of change in the story, but this just means they all start off as unlikable bastards and grow to become just uninteresting. It is pretty though, and the combat's fun.

[Ape Boy]

Alternately, buy the game. I did, and enjoyed the Hell out of it. Still am today, will probably conquer it soon enough.

I loved 12, though, so if you didn't, try it first

[Kim]

I love XII and I hate everything about XIII that isn't Chocofro and combat.

[Regulus Tera]

Ok so, from all you guys' experiance with this game, what would you reccomend to someone, IE me, on purchasing it?

Bearing in mind that I loved FFX more than most other games, and hated FF12, mainly due to, a boring plot and crappy side missions, but thought the combat system was "ok".

What say ye NPF?

If you're playing on a PS3, get Valkyria Chronicles instead.

If you're playing on a 360, get Tales of Vesperia instead.

If you have neither console, wait for Final Fantasy Agito XIII? play Dissidia: Final Fantasy. It's at least more tolerable than FFXIII's plot.

[Ape Boy]

I love XII and I hate everything about XIII that isn't Chocofro and combat.

Yeah, but you also like to bitch. I'm probably too forgiving, alternately.

I say go to GameRankings/MetaCritic and read a good selection of reviews to go along with the guys here.

[Regulus Tera]

Yeah, but you also like to bitch. I'm probably too forgiving, alternately.

I say go to GameRankings/MetaCritic and read a good selection of reviews to go along with the guys here.

Ironic considering FFXIII's metacritic is lower than FFXII's.

Also metacritic is like the worst way to base your decision on a game purchase.

[The Artist Formerly Known as Hawk]

Yeah normally the only reviewers I listen to are PSM3, but we've had differences of opinion lately. They also loved the hell out of FF12, though 13 did get scored lower than any previous FF, which I find somewhat telling.

Fuck it, I'll just wait and see if any of my friends get it and borrow it off them. Saves spending £40 on a game I'm probably not going to like.

[Regulus Tera]

Yeah normally the only reviewers I listen to are PSM3, but we've had differences of opinion lately. They also loved the hell out of FF12, though 13 did get scored lower than any previous FF, which I find somewhat telling.

Fuck it, I'll just wait and see if any of my friends get it and borrow it off them. Saves spending £40 on a game I'm probably not going to like.

Dude Valkyria Chronicles is freaking cheap (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sega-Valkyria-Chronicles-PS3/dp/B00197U1G6/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=videogames&qid=1269945469&sr=8-1).

Tales of Vesperia is still at full-price though.

[greed]

Totally worth it though. That thing does to JRPGs what KotoR2 did to WRPGs. Tear apart every expectation you've got.

And to Hawk personally I'm not really liking FFXIII, I stalled round the theme park and haven't touched it in about a fortnight now. Started replaying Dragon Age and Iji instead. But I thought FFXII was the best FF by a huge margin so we've got pretty different tastes.

[EVILNess]

Best part of Valkyria Chronicles, when they drive a tank across the bottom of a river to get the jump on a group of enemies.

[MFD]

greed, it's a shame you stalled at the themepark because you're about to hit what I feel is the emotional high of the game so far.

[Meister]

They go on the roller coaster?

[Kim]

greed, it's a shame you stalled at the themepark because you're about to hit what I feel is the emotional high of the game so far.

I will second that this is the emotional high of the game, though I'll add that it's pretty much the only emotional moment of the game.

[MFD]

I'm a couple of chapters after that, and nothing's really struck me so far. I'll say, though, that I think I preferred the more character-oriented dungeons (Light/Hope and Sazh/Vanille before the inevitable reunions) to the rest of the game.

[Regulus Tera]

I will second that this is the emotional high of the game, though I'll add that it's pretty much the only emotional moment of the game.


Hope's angst is an emotion too!

[Kim]

Hope: "I hate my dad! He's the worst dad ever! ARGGGGH"
Me: "Why do you hate your dad?"
Hope: "Shutup!"
Hope's Dad: ""Everybody stand back when I be possibly the best father in Final Fantasy history!"

Seriously, he's actually a fantastic dad, but Hope hates him... because... and it never explains why. Riiiiight.

[bluestarultor]

Hope: "I hate my dad! He's the worst dad ever! ARGGGGH"
Me: "Why do you hate your dad?"
Hope: "Shutup!"
Hope's Dad: ""Everybody stand back when I be possibly the best father in Final Fantasy history!"

Seriously, he's actually a fantastic dad, but Hope hates him... because... and it never explains why. Riiiiight.

Methinks it has to do with the good old Japanese tradition of fathers running off to do work and never spending time with their families. He wasn't even at the fireworks, remember, which was kind of a big deal.

Having a dad of my own who was never around, I can at least somewhat understand where he's coming from on that.



@Hawk: I'd suggest renting first. I'm frankly loving the game, but it's one of those polarizing things. I'd say the combat is easily the best of the series and the set pieces are gorgeous to the point of rapture, but the party does a lot of faffing about trying to figure out what to do until someone gets sick of them and tries to put them on rails for a bit. The cast is okay, but not great, but then I don't bother holding out for "great" casts anymore and generally rate them on how tolerable they are, and I'd classify them as:

Snow: somewhat frustratingly stubborn
Hope: kinda disturbing, actually, but Lightning agrees with me, so he's supposed to be, and just a bit whiny once he's past it, in a very teen fashion
Vanille: okay once she gets consistent, but your mileage may vary
Sazh: awesome
Fang: okay
Lightning: quite a bitch, but in a consistently military way most of the time, and not without a soft spot

They all have some major individual issues, but as time goes on, they do grow and start interacting well.

[Kim]

I take it by "interacting well" you mean in the same way Power Rangers interact?

After they stop being terrible they seem only to exist to talk about the Power of Friendship and Teamwork.

EDIT: Even if what you say is the case, the game is never very clear on that fact, and it should be, what with how often Hope brings it up.

[bluestarultor]

I take it by "interacting well" you mean in the same way Power Rangers interact?

After they stop being terrible they seem only to exist to talk about the Power of Friendship and Teamwork.

EDIT: Even if what you say is the case, the game is never very clear on that fact, and it should be, what with how often Hope brings it up.

Clearly, you have never seen some of the better Power Rangers series. ;)

And, honestly, I partly blame the lack of an outright mention on the game being Japanese, where such things are pretty common in business, and partly on the fact that it really is shown more than told, where an outright explanation would seem very shoehorned in and rather pointless. If Hope's dad isn't around for like THE biggest event to happen all year, it's pretty safe to assume with what Hope says to his mom that the guy just ain't around.

Again, maybe it's just because I was in the same boat at that age, but it was pretty clear to me.

[Kim]

where an outright explanation would seem very shoehorned in and rather pointless.

All it would take is "Hope, why do you hate your dad so much?" "He's never around. He cares more about work than me or my mother." Ideally, it'd be a bit better written than what I threw together in two seconds, but it's certainly no more pointless than Hope hating his dad in the first place.

[bluestarultor]

All it would take is "Hope, why do you hate your dad so much?" "He's never around. He cares more about work than me or my mother." Ideally, it'd be a bit better written than what I threw together in two seconds, but it's certainly no more pointless than Hope hating his dad in the first place.

I think it's funny you actually think the writers could have come up with something better than that and easily stuck it in somewhere where it most likely never existed before. :p In the pre-rendered segments, the actors were still trying to lip synch to the Japanese mouths, and unless there was a convenient point to do it in an in-game engine sequence, well, it's easier to use the time for more important things that form the actual plot.

Tiny bit lost in translation, I suppose, but I have yet to come up to a good place it might have been mentioned.

[Kim]

How about in the woods where Hope starts off doing most of his bitching about his dad. I'm speaking from a storytelling perspective, not a well the lipsyncing gives them a chance perspective. The game is the one that decides to cram Hope's father-hate down our throats repeatedly. It's the game's job to explain it. Even if you blame it on the cultural gap, that doesn't change that the game I played is flawed for not properly explaining this.

[bluestarultor]

How about in the woods where Hope starts off doing most of his bitching about his dad. I'm speaking from a storytelling perspective, not a well the lipsyncing gives them a chance perspective. The game is the one that decides to cram Hope's father-hate down our throats repeatedly. It's the game's job to explain it. Even if you blame it on the cultural gap, that doesn't change that the game I played is flawed for not properly explaining this.

I'll agree with this, but I'll also offer that a lot of players are shallow and would prefer better lip-synching to an outright mention of why he hates his dad.

I mean, we could go at this all day, but it's a pretty minor gap in the grand scheme of things.

[Kim]

Why a flaw is there never excuses that it is there.

Yes, it's fairly minor, but all the characters have incredibly simple personalities. Even something as small as this stands out as one of the "major" parts of Hope's personality, simply because it has very little to compete with.

[krogothwolf]

I have to back NonCon up on this, even though I guessed that it was the reason, you don't really understand and then you are greeted with this awesome dad after Hope spent the game whining like a giant freakin baby. That flaw made Hope even seem more pathetic.

[bluestarultor]

Well, here's me arguing the technical side of things again. :J

Not saying it's not a flaw, but some shit just ain't easy to fix, like how to fix Garrus' texture in ME1 would require a multi-Gigabyte patch.

I personally didn't have a problem with it, but it seems others don't have my experience in this matter and should consider themselves lucky.

[Kim]

Even if I had your experience, I wouldn't care. It's not my job to judge how difficult things would be to pull off. It's my job to judge the end result.

[bluestarultor]

Even if I had your experience, I wouldn't care. It's not my job to judge how difficult things would be to pull off. It's my job to judge the end result.

This is why we're always at odds. We have different jobs. :J

[Mirai Gen]

I personally didn't have a problem with it, but it seems others don't have my experience in this matter and should consider themselves lucky.

Storytelling is not about inferring meaning. You have to show people shit. The phrase is "Show, don't tell," but we didn't get either.

You say that in Japan this sort of thing is obvious but I don't buy it - even if he missed his extra-special birthday party he wouldn't be an awful father by default, and even if he is, Hope is still making an enormous fucking deal out of it.

[Ape Boy]

Ironic considering FFXIII's metacritic is lower than FFXII's.

Also metacritic is like the worst way to base your decision on a game purchase.

I didn't say anything about XII vs XIII, I said I loved both.

Know what XIII's score is higher than, though? Tales of Vesperia.

Going by the straight MetaScore, I agree. I suggested reading a ton of reviews though, which are easily collected for link clicking at Meta and GameRankings. I always use a large sampling of reviews to aid my game selection.

As for Hope and his dad, I had no problem simply chalking that up to petulant teenage angst and senseless "YOU NEVER UNDERSTOOD ME" hate. Hope seeming pathetic because of it made perfect sense to me, because Hope WAS fucking pathetic. I actively keep him out of my party permanently, and I hope he grows up to get testicular torsion.

[Bells]

I just must Ask... what happens to Jihl in the game? Before launch, all eyes were on her, and now that the game is out there is not a word

[Kim]

She shows up in three or four cutscenes, and then gets killed by the main villain in a cutscene without you ever having fought her.

[Krylo]

I didn't say anything about XII vs XIII, I said I loved both.

Know what XIII's score is higher than, though? Tales of Vesperia.

Going by the straight MetaScore, I agree. I suggested reading a ton of reviews though, which are easily collected for link clicking at Meta and GameRankings. I always use a large sampling of reviews to aid my game selection.

As for Hope and his dad, I had no problem simply chalking that up to petulant teenage angst and senseless "YOU NEVER UNDERSTOOD ME" hate. Hope seeming pathetic because of it made perfect sense to me, because Hope WAS fucking pathetic. I actively keep him out of my party permanently, and I hope he grows up to get testicular torsion.

Hope got better after meeting his dad. At least by my estimation.

Also, he's one of the strongest characters in the game. He replaced Sazh as my synergist once he manned up and learned haste. Less upgraded weapon and less offensive accessories and he still beats out Sazh's magic by leaps and bounds.

You know who stays out of my party forever, though? Snow.

I didn't bother looking up ages or whatever, but Snow looks like he's in his mid twenties, and Serah looks like she's like 15 or some shit. Every time they were together in the flash backs all I could think was "Please lord, make the pedo stop. Please.

Also, I, unlike some people who have been hating the game since a year before it came out, wasn't completely certain Sazh wasn't dead. Aeris was a main character too, guys. And her death was a lot less dramatically interesting than Sazh's would have been had they let him pull the trigger.

Also, I've spent a lot of time with games/series that aren't afraid of certain tropes. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AnyoneCanDie) So I'm a little less "Oh, s/he's a main character, s/he CAN'T die." (DRAGON AGE AWAKENINGS SPOILER) Hell, Awakenings killed off a character billed as one of the main characters within the first hour of the game in an entirely non-dramatic fashion.

Further, I get that it's like, trendy to hate on Final Fantasy, but really: Name two JRPGs that don't have all the story telling problems you guys are bitching about.

Sequels/Spin-offs don't count, so no being like "Persona 1, 2, 3, blah blah blah"

It's not like Final Fantasy, or Dragon Quest, or Star Ocean, or Atelier Iris, or the Tales series or... well you get the idea--it's not as if games are created to the same literary standard as classical literature. This SHOULD be obvious, as that you're getting works written by 9-5 folks who wouldn't be writing for video games if they could make a living writing novels. And then they're translated.

And it's not even just jRPGs. Fallout 3? Oblivion? Hell, even Dragon Age is full of literary pitfalls and writing issues. Even KotoR and the first two Fallouts (that were actually made by Black Isle). Even Bloodlines. And every GTA game that tried to have a serious story?

Yeah, they all fail if you're holding them up to the literary standards of classic literature, or even television.

And FFXIII still does a better job of story telling than Moby Dick. Hell FFVIII does a better job of story telling than Moby Dick.

Games tell stories in an entirely different way than movies, TV series, and works of literature.

That's not to say the game is perfect by any means.

Weapon Upgrading, for instance, is a huge pointless mess of a chore, and I've yet to find a weapon whose special abilities (quick stagger, stagger lock, etc.) are worth the flat magic/strength trade off you have to accept to use them. Especially considering that by the time you get them you've already put a lot of time and money into upgrading your old weapons so they're going to be universally a downgrade until you can rake in about 200000 bucks to buy upgrade materials.

And money is far too rare.

I also didn't like the massive dick move of "Oh yeah, you can now level everyone in everything, and that artificial ceiling on stat bonuses we've given you the entire time that made grinding completely pointless/useless is now more or less gone. HAVE SOME ADAMANCHILDES AND SHIT THAT BLOWS UP AND DOES MORE DAMAGE THAN YOU CAN POSSIBLY HAVE HPS AT THIS POINT! ENJOY YOUR GRINDING!"

And the 'random encounter' difficulty wavers between being fun--because they're all difficult--and just being kind of a chore because sometimes the 'random encounters' (adamanchilde/juggernaut) are more difficult than the bosses (any boss in the game).

I also liked that you get rated at the end of battle, but didn't like that it's basically useless unless you're summoning eidolans left and right, which are, themselves, basically useless except as a way to heal your party, as that my party members, universally, do better damage than their eidolans do.

However, none of these issues make it a terrible horrible game like a couple people seem to want to make it out to be.

Hope is still making an enormous fucking deal out of it.

He's 14. It's what 14 year olds DO, man. They hate their parents for stupid reasons.

P.S. Guys--Thirteen days. Flashbacks. 11th day.

Hope: Whaddya wish fer, mum?
Nora: Somethin' about your dad being here or some shit.
Hope: HE'S NEVER BEEN AROUND WE DON'T NEED HIM

His reasons are explained in the game. It's right about when Sazh and Vanille find him pouting because Lightning left him behind in the giant junk pile if I remember correctly.

[Azisien]

As eloquently put and logical as your rant is, Krylo, there is a special chill I get watching FFXIII cutscenes that I don't normally get in other games.

I mean it's writing is certainly on par with games that have bad writing, Gears of War 2 comes to mind there. But Gears had co-op with a buddy and like, chainsaws on guns! Chainsaws!

FF balances by having a rather fun combat system. I am at a point, however, where story is second or equally important to gameplay in single player games. I could care less about story in multiplayer (see: L4D) because I can make my own crazy stories with friends.

And FFXIII? That is some shit story. Up to Chapter 9 anyway.


Case in point: At least games like KoToR or Dragon Age sort of teach you about the world and the powers that be. They've got relatively wide personality ranges for characters. FF has a cast of people that frown and pause in stoic silence. I rationalize it by figuring entire manuscripts were lost when they sent the Japanese scripts to be translated into English. I have learned a bit about the world now in FF but holy crap I've been playing for 20 hours. There was a 10 hour period or so where I'm sitting there, enjoying the combat mind you, but being like "What the FUCK is going on?" followed by "And why do I care?"

[Kim]

I vaguely recall the cutscene your referring to. I'm trying to find it on Youtube currently, and will get back to you once I do.

I know it'd make your job of just plain ignoring my opinion that much easier to simply attribute all my complaints to "Well he decided to hate it", but I'm pretty sure the nice things I've said should get in the way of that. As in how I've pretty consistently said the gameplay is great in spite of its flaws, or that Sazh is a great character, etc.

My Problems

Everyone who isn't the main cast doesn't feel very well fleshed out

The story feels aimless and like it's intentionally drawing things out at times

I feel they skipped an important step. I liked Wakka as a character in FFX because they went out of their way to make you like him before introducing the character flaws that would make you dislike him, and then worked on him overcoming them. FFXIII, with the exception of Sazh, cuts out that first bit, and as such I'm not fond of the characters, and the events surrounding them don't have the impact they otherwise would.

Serah's "death" was poorly executed in my opinion, because it was shoved in the very beginning without getting you attached to her or the party first. In contrast, Dahj's "death" was done better because it got you attached to Sazh before showing it.

Certain plot points don't make sense without reading the datalog, and I still think both the actions of the villain (for revealing his plot) and the party (for fighting what the villain wants them to do by doing what the villains wants them to do) don't hold together too well under scrutiny.


I think all of these are fairly valid complaints, and that it's at least pretty easy to see why I'd be of this opinion even if you disagree. Saying it's all "because it's trendy to hate Final Fantasy" is a bullshit argument and you know it.

[Krylo]

And FFXIII? That is some shit story. Up to Chapter 9 anyway.

Explain how it is worse than KotoR's YOU ARE THE REVAN! M. Night Shalamadingdong style twist. or or Dragon Age's Oh, BTW, one of you has to die now, completely out of left field. BUT WAIT, here is a convenient loop in your hole! Which is another 'twist' that was completely worthless/pointless. Or my Dwarf Noble character's complete inability to tell Bhelen is full of shit. or Fallout 3's COMPLETE lack of characterization for anyone, except, arguably, your father, whose characterization was still terribad. You learn nothing of no one's motivations or the reasons that anyone is doing ANYTHING they are doing. The goddamn COMPUTER has better characterization than the vast majority of actual characters you interact with.

I don't think the story here is shit. It's not going to win any prizes, sure. There's issues here and there, sure, but the issues are no worse than any other video game ever.

Edit: Case in point: At least games like KoToR or Dragon Age sort of teach you about the world and the powers that be. They've got relatively wide personality ranges for characters. FF has a cast of people that frown and pause in stoic silence. I rationalize it by figuring entire manuscripts were lost when they sent the Japanese scripts to be translated into English. I have learned a bit about the world now in FF but holy crap I've been playing for 20 hours. There was a 10 hour period or so where I'm sitting there, enjoying the combat mind you, but being like "What the FUCK is going on?" followed by "And why do I care?"

Never felt this way, but them I'm arguing with people who are complaining about Hope hating his dad for no reason/no reason ever being given, when it is literally right there in the game.

So maybe it shouldn't surprise me that this is the issue.

And no, I don't read the datalog. I didn't feel as compelled to as I did with DA:O/ME. In which, yes, you actually needed to in order to know what the fuck was going on with, say, every Turian in the game hating the shit out of you.

[Kim]

People liked Dragon Age's story? Mind = Blown

[bluestarultor]

People liked Dragon Age's story? Mind = Blown

Man, if that's all you've taken from that dissertation... *sigh*

This is what I meant when talking with Nik.

[Krylo]

Was hoping you guys would post so I didn't have to edit this in:

I vaguely recall the cutscene your referring to. I'm trying to find it on Youtube currently, and will get back to you once I do.I tried too.

I found it in JAPANESE, with japanese subtitles, but I don't think any of us speak/read japanese, do we?

I know it'd make your job of just plain ignoring my opinion that much easier to simply attribute all my complaints to "Well he decided to hate it", but I'm pretty sure the nice things I've said should get in the way of that. As in how I've pretty consistently said the gameplay is great in spite of its flaws, or that Sazh is a great character, etc.

Not really.

You decided to hate it, and big surprise you hated it when you played it.

It's hard for anything, whether it be people, games, or movies to overcome first impressions. When you go into something thinking it's going to suck, you're going to notice every single flaw. It is how the human mind works.

It's great that a few of the better parts of the game managed to break past that for you, but it doesn't change that, no, it totally doesn't get in the way of saying you probably just hate it because you decided you were going to hate it a year ago and spent the last twelve months thinking about how much fun you're going to have hating on it.

I feel they skipped an important step. I liked Wakka as a character in FFX because they went out of their way to make you like him before introducing the character flaws that would make you dislike him, and then worked on him overcoming them. FFXIII, with the exception of Sazh, cuts out that first bit, and as such I'm not fond of the characters, and the events surrounding them don't have the impact they otherwise would.I never liked Wakka, but I think what you're describing here is a problem I have with a lot of game players.

If a character isn't immediately lovable they hate them. Forever.

Alistair in DA:O is an emo because everyone he's ever known was killed in front of his eyes. Would this preconception still exist if it had happened 8 hours into the game instead of one or two? Hard to say. I do know that the fact he only bitches about it three times ever is pushed aside for the fact that our first few interactions with him after the joining are about it.

Tidus in FFX is an emo because he was stolen from his posh life and thrown to the dogs. No one cares that he mans up and sacrifices his life to break the cycle of death on the planet. Nope, he's a weak emo because that's what he was at first.

COULD the writers of FFXIII have been more cognizant of the way gamer minds work? Probably.

Does the fact that they weren't make the story weak/shitty?

No. No it does not.

There's more character growth in this game, and realistic character growth at that, than you'd get playing DA:O ten times over.

Sorry Azi, but 'hardening Alistair' doesn't count as realistic character growth.

Serah's "death" was poorly executed in my opinion, because it was shoved in the very beginning without getting you attached to her or the party first. In contrast, Dahj's "death" was done better because it got you attached to Sazh before showing it.

Eh, I don't know. I was too busy going "Ew ew ew, pedo" at Snow during that entire scene to make a good call.

Sazh's was definitely more emotionally viable.

However, putting off Serah's death wouldn't have worked from the perspective of the over all story and plot arc, so I don't think this is really a good complaint. They did as well as they could without moving it back ten hours and fucking up the driving motivations of most of the characters.

Certain plot points don't make sense without reading the datalog,I disagree. I've understood every plot point and have never looked in any of the story sections of the datalog. Looked in a few of the gameplay sections to see if I was doing Gestalt mode wrong or something, because it seemed to pretty much suck balls and I figured they couldn't have ACTUALLY made it suck balls. But they did.

and I still think both the actions of the villain (for revealing his plot) and the party (for fighting what the villain wants them to do by doing what the villains wants them to do) don't hold together too well under scrutiny.I'm right at Orphan's Cradle currently, so I don't know if things change, but up to now the main villain telling them what's up was part of his plan. He's breaking down their hope. This is also why he sends them to Pulse. They're looking for a way out of their focus, so he sends them there so that they can discover there IS no way out of their focus.

They then go to Orphan NOT to kill it and do what he said, but to stop the cavalry from doing the same--as he said they'd do it if the L'Cie didn't. When they get there they're locked in.

Like the load game screen says--all Bart has to do now is break down their hope so one of them succumbs to their focus. He manipulated them into going where they need to be and as slowly stripped away all their hope. If he had lied to them about their focus, or what he wanted them to do, they might think they have a chance at overcoming it.

By doing the opposite and telling them exactly what he wanted out of them he set the idea that there WAS no escape from their fates in their minds. He's playing a very subtle mind game with them, and I'll probably see how that turns out tonight.

Unless I do more C'ieth stone missions.

I think all of these are fairly valid complaints,They are, but none of them make the story shit like Azi just said or like you seem to be implying.

They certainly don't make it worse than say... Final Fantasy VII.

and that it's at least pretty easy to see why I'd be of this opinion even if you disagree.Yeah, but it's also pretty easy to attribute it of 12 months straight of wanting to hate on the game.

Saying it's all "because it's trendy to hate Final Fantasy" is a bullshit argument and you know it.
Maybe.

[Kim]

Man, if that's all you've taken from that dissertation... *sigh*

This is what I meant when talking with Nik.

Do you mean the first dissertation where he said stuff and I made my point afterwards, or do you mean the second where his point was "FFXIII's story isn't worse than these stories" and I said "Wait, people actually liked the story you're saying it isn't worse than?" Maybe it's just me, but that seems to address the point pretty clearly. "It isn't worse than these stories." "Yes, but those stories aren't very good either." Though I can't really speak for KoToR since I haven't played it.

Unless of course you mean the stuff he edited in after I made my post, in which case you're looking for reasons to hate me now.

EDIT: Actually, the part I'm talking about isn't until closer to the end. And no I don't speak Japanese. I'm just that lazy. I'll go into more detail about the plot points that don't make sense to me without the datalog once you beat the game. As for characters not starting off likable being hated forever... maybe. I'm trying to think of a counterexample, but you might be right on my reasoning. Of course, I wasn't really attached to any of the party's endgame personalities either, so that might be playing a role, too. I dunno, I'll think on it more. As for the Serah death thing, I actually have an idea on how a couple things like this could have been done better, which I'll go into more detail when I have more time on my hands. Lastly, I don't think I said anything positive or negative about FFVII here. I don't remember it well enough to think fondly or poorly of it, so all my memories are of Advent Children and Crisis Core. Oh well!

[Krylo]

Unless of course you mean the stuff he edited in after I made my post, in which case you're looking for reasons to hate me now.To be fair, Azi edited that in while I was making mine!

Lastly, I don't think I said anything positive or negative about FFVII here. I don't remember it well enough to think fondly or poorly of it, so all my memories are of Advent Children and Crisis Core. Oh well!
You didn't, but FFVII is one of the most loved FF's. I would have used VI or XII, but, well, I think they DO have better stories than FFXIII (though VI is probably like 90% nostalgia on my part), but FFXIII has better/more realistic character growth for most of the characters, so.

Also, my issue isn't with saying that the story has problems, it's with the tone of some of the posts that make FFXIII out like some horrible terrible game whose only saving graces are Sazh and the combat system (which I'm kind of torn on, it's fun, but I see so many ways to make it BETTER, and there's that 'no more FF's like this one' rumor going around that makes me feel like they won't).

The story's not the best thing ever, no. But it's also not the WORST thing ever, and FFXIII is a pretty decent game, and has a story that is also pretty decent when compared to the competition within the same media.

Edit: Also, to be honest, even though Sazh is one of/the most likable character, I don't think he's the best or even one of the best characters. He forgoes any character growth at all. He has to come to terms with Vanille/Fang being at least partially responsible for his son become L'Cie and then crystal, but I don't think he really changed as a character because of it. The way he dealt with it was very... him. Right down to forgiving them and going back to being Surrogate father for Vanille. If anything I think he got over it too quickly.

[bluestarultor]

Do you mean the first dissertation where he said stuff and I made my point afterwards, or do you mean the second where his point was "FFXIII's story isn't worse than these stories" and I said "Wait, people actually liked the story you're saying it isn't worse than?" Maybe it's just me, but that seems to address the point pretty clearly. "It isn't worse than these stories." "Yes, but those stories aren't very good either." Though I can't really speak for KoToR since I haven't played it.

Unless of course you mean the stuff he edited in after I made my post, in which case you're looking for reasons to hate me now.

No, I actually missed the following discussion somehow and just assumed it was a reply to the big long post.

In any case, I'm going to have to side with Krylo on this one. He makes some very good points and I find myself agreeing a lot with his assessment, because, as I said a year ago, you weren't giving the game a chance long before it came out, so the fact you hate it now is zero surprise.

See, I know you review games and all, but I've said time and again that you need to review the game when it comes out and not before, much less an entire year before. Cuts down on the preconceived bias. A year's worth of bias, well, let me just be honest and say I by no means can call FFXIII perfect, but it really shows in your frequent, vocal, and often overblown complaints. I know a lot of what you say is true, but the proportions you make out of it makes it sound like simply inserting the DVD into the slot sends a shower of white-hot shurikens flying at you. I can agree with many of your points, but I can't agree with your scale.

[Azisien]

The "prepared to hate the game" thing works well for like, NonCon and Tera, but I didn't really have many preconceptions going into the game. At least few enough that I could set them aside and try to judge the game based on my pure emotional reactions to the content.

The only thing I was concerned about going in was the "30-hour-long road" and it did bug me for a while. I eventually settled on the reflection that most FFs ever are just Town A->Town B->Town C->Town D->Town E too which is also horribly linear. At least world maps gave me a better visualization of moving around the world.

Alistair in DA:O is an emo because everyone he's ever known was killed in front of his eyes. Would this preconception still exist if it had happened 8 hours into the game instead of one or two? Hard to say. I do know that the fact he only bitches about it three times ever is pushed aside for the fact that our first few interactions with him after the joining are about it.

Yes, first impressions matter. They always matter. Human nature, as you say, has nothing to do with gamers. Can richer experiences down the road pay dividends to initially frowned-upon impressions: of course!

Can any particular scene I've come across in FF be called rich? Um...the poly counts are rich?

Do any video games ever do this? Not really, not any mentioned anyway.

The difference? Well I liked Alistair. The difference is that he was likeable almost out of the gates for me. He was sarcastic and told jokes and poked fun and argued with people.

And a designer's goal isn't to make me like ALL characters. In fact, that would probably suck. Negative emotions can be good too, it's okay to hate characters. I don't like Sten or Morrigan. Yet Morrigan has some depth to her, it's almost a good not liking. Sten I just really don't like but that's okay because I found SOME characters to like. But I don't find myself bonding with any FF characters. I'm as bonded to the chocobo chick as I am to Lightning.

And no, the WHOLE story isn't shit, I'm handing out hyperbole left and right as per usual. I really genuinely didn't enjoy the first significant number of hours. Contrary to what you say, Krylo, the game hands out very little information about anything unless you go read the Datapad or load screens. It weens you on little bread crumbs of information while throwing around l'Cie and fal'Cie like it's World Apostrophe Day, yet immersion was a problem for me because I had no context.

Hell yes it gets better later on. Precisely when the characters start talking more after my 15-hour mark and I start to GET some context. But what was sacrificed? My first impression, and that definitely matters. So no, the game's far from horrible. I've got no regrets purchasing it even, but it's an uphill battle in terms of impressing me now.

And if I came across liking the combat system a little too much then that's wrong too, it has its share of problems. I'm finding a lot of monsters are becoming less interesting monsters to fight and more giant vats of Hit Points. Also, every area seems to be the same 9 or so monsters with little coloured textures. Yes yes, I know, PSICOM bio-research bullshit excuse, the end result is the elves on level 9 look the same as the elves on level 6 as the elves on level 2. It's a titch dry.

Edit 1: This should be prefaced with "I'M ONLY ON CHAPTER 9 GUYZ"

Edit 2: Also Fallout 3 story DID suck, but at least it's sandbox nature almost almost reached my multiplayer fuzzy zone level of "make your own adventures"

[Krylo]

I guess I can't really argue with you, 'cause I don't know where chapter nine is in the story, and even if I did I kind of have a feeling that any arguments I make would rely on character growth that happens over the course of the game.

But I will say that Hope, whom is probably the least likable character, has at least as much character depth as Morrigan does. He goes from Whiny brat, to determined revenge driven teen, to feeling the fact that he's the youngest and (logically, but not in terms of game mechanics) the weakest link, to becoming one of the most driven characters even overtaking Snow in his ability to keep people moving in the right direction. And this growth is organic and comes alongside you learning how his mind works.

Morrigan, on the other hand, goes from damaged woman with no conception of love, friendship, or even kindness, really, to an incredibly loyal sister/lover character, depending on gender and whether you romance her/are nice to her at all. Alternatively, she can stay just how she started. Again, the growth is organic, and comes alongside you learning how her mind works.

Don't get the 'chill' factor, either--unless you're talking about the Snow/Serah pedo thing, but I did look up the ages a little bit ago, and I guess Serah is 18, but jesus they could have done a better job making her look it.

S'rsly guys, was I the only one creeped out as all fuck by that?

And SOMEONE tell me what they needed to read in the datalogs to understand. Preferably Azi as he's less far than I am, and won't be mentioning things I haven't seen yet.

I noticed more of that in DA:O and ME than in FFXIII, as I said.

[bluestarultor]

I dunno why everyone is saying you need the datalog for context. Phantom didn't. You can't even make the argument that I already knew all the crap from being on FF Wiki, because I made a point to keep a lid on any and all spoilers. He never checked the datalog once and didn't have a problem with it, and he wasn't even particularly excited about the game after his experience with XII. He actually picked it up for my sake, popped it in on a whim, and barreled on through of his own accord.

Really, if you just pay attention to what's going on in the story, the datalog is entirely redundant. Phantom's assessment was that it just was repeating stuff he already knew. He didn't bother after the first few. We're now in Chapter 11 and piling up on Missions, so unless there's something in the last two chapters that really biffs it, I'm counting the datalog as not as necessary as people seem to claim.

[Kim]

Blues, you don't know my scale. You've seen what I say when I write posts, a lot of which I don't devote the proper amount of time to. Furthermore, the things I like about the game don't get nearly as much attention because I'm not the sort of person who is usually inclined to post and say "The combat's... pretty good!" unless I have very little else to say. You see my arguments as shrunken down to one or two paragraphs, and I'll be the first to admit they don't paint a clear picture.

Aside from that, talk shit on my preconceived bias all you like, but you had one, too, and that colors your current impressions, just like Krylo had his, and Azis had his, and Tera had his, because unless you literally haven't seen a single cutscene or heard a single thing about the game or the franchise it is a part of, you are going to have some sort of preconceived bias. Even if you aren't immediately aware of it, it's there. I know my preconceived bias. I have a pretty decent idea of how much it colors things. I went into FFX after years of not playing it because I had no interest in it, and thinking I would hate it. I literally played the game because I thought I could get a hateful review of it. Of the story centric Final Fantasies, it ranks as my third favorite in spite of its flaws and my complaints. I think this says a lot.

[Azisien]

And SOMEONE tell me what they needed to read in the datalogs to understand. Preferably Azi as he's less far than I am, and won't be mentioning things I haven't seen yet.

Perhaps it's not so much needing to read the datalogs to understand anything, as I said, being starved of context. I'm referring mostly to the introduction, which is a good five or six hours long. But more then enough time to form my initial impression.

The characters don't talk that much in the beginning. You know, its kind of understandable at least. They don't know each other, they're all pissed/driven, why talk? That's fine, I get it, but I also get bored.

I just wanted context. At the beginning they just throw around l'Cie and fal'Cie like I'm supposed to know what they are. Cocoon and Pulse. What are they? Is it the city they're in? A quadrant of the city? I have no idea and, I think I was sober at the time, because I don't recall the game elaborating until hours later. I did go into the datapad a few sparse times just to try to find some answers. This never happened to me in DAO or ME ever. I checked the codex out of genuine interest, moreso in ME, possibly because I'm a sci-fi nerd over a high fantasy nerd.

It's not so much the content taken as a whole as the speed of the delivery. The start is SLOW and I didn't like that. Square had whatever reason they wanted. I didn't find the ratio of content richness to speed of delivery to be satisfying. What was said could have been done in much less time, and probably not on one long winding road too, that would have aided in context. Some of that may be my fault, I didn't use the map much, but as far as I saw there were no world map pictures either.

To their credit at least the cut scenes are nicely spaced between monster segments, but often again I feel like whole scenes go by and nothing happened in them.

And I brightened slightly too when Hope started to gain some character. I've seen like half of what you described in his development, Krylo, and yeah it's better than the beginning. Wish I could say the same for the rest of the cast. And oh I hate Hope. Not because he's poorly developed, just because I hate him.


EDIT: I feel like now that, more recently, I'm feeling starved for a proper villain. Villains don't even seem to be introduced, I went several scenes before even figuring out that big-titted librarian colonel's NAME. It's starting to feel like the start of the game again.

EDIT 2: To give less numbery context, I'm just past the part where Dajh crystals and the other chunk of the party is raiding that big flagship thing. The polytamymeciasndndsf.

[Kim]

Okay, Krylo, let me ask you something. In the beginning of the game, what sort of personality does Hope have, other than Whiny Brat?

When he's driven by revenge, what's his personality outside that?

When he's happy and driven and a Power Ranger, what's his personality outside that?

Maybe I didn't notice it, but outside whatever is the focus of their personality at the time, they don't seem all that well fleshed out. They go through a lot of character development, but nothing outside what they are at the time seems developed. If it is, I honestly don't remember.

I suppose there are a couple things, like Hope hating his dad, but I just get the impression that, as dynamic as they are, they're still very simple.

EDIT: No, Krylo, you weren't the only one creeped out by it, but I ran out of Snow is a pedophile jokes before the game came out. :/

[bluestarultor]

Blues, you don't know my scale. You've seen what I say when I write posts, a lot of which I don't devote the proper amount of time to. Furthermore, the things I like about the game don't get nearly as much attention because I'm not the sort of person who is usually inclined to post and say "The combat's... pretty good!" unless I have very little else to say. You see my arguments as shrunken down to one or two paragraphs, and I'll be the first to admit they don't paint a clear picture.

Aside from that, talk shit on my preconceived bias all you like, but you had one, too, and that colors your current impressions, just like Krylo had his, and Azis had his, and Tera had his, because unless you literally haven't seen a single cutscene or heard a single thing about the game or the franchise it is a part of, you are going to have some sort of preconceived bias. Even if you aren't immediately aware of it, it's there. I know my preconceived bias. I have a pretty decent idea of how much it colors things. I went into FFX after years of not playing it because I had no interest in it, and thinking I would hate it. I literally played the game because I thought I could get a hateful review of it. Of the story centric Final Fantasies, it ranks as my third favorite in spite of its flaws and my complaints. I think this says a lot.

Non, you have no idea what I'm saying, do you? I'm saying you're the boy who cried wolf. You have sacrificed your reviewer's integrity in the eyes of the public on this game over the past year by ragging on it at every turn. Yeah, everyone has a bias based on what they see, but you've spent the past year establishing and reinforcing your own.

I'm saying this because I care, man. That's WHY I kept saying not to review the game until it was out, because you have some great points on it. But now everyone's inclined to write them all off, because they figure you've decided to hate the game no matter what.

See, Azi made a good point. You and RT didn't just come in with a bias, you both came in with a whole year's worth of hating on the game in a very strong and vocal manner. Azi's hating on the game based on its own merits. And there are good merits to hate on it for. The uber-long intro nearly killed it for Phantom and me, to be honest, and the first boss battle with Barthandelus took us somewhere like 20 tries, during which Phantom nearly broke the controller at least once and swore off the game twice until I could get tactics and finally a GUIDE for him. It pissed us off to no end that Snow was off dicking around for half the game and Hope is easily in the top 10 most annoying characters of FF.

See, I can say all that and have people listen, because I didn't establish a huge negative bias over the thing. I LOVE the game and even I'm saying rent before you buy.

The way things are coming off on your end are "I've hated the game for over a year now and I'm just going to keep on doing so, but, hey, there are a couple good things that I'll admit in between that." You've strongly established your bias over the past year and it's probably not going to go away for this round. On the other hand, I'm hoping you can learn from this for other games. It's not a matter of being positive about every title before release, or even trying to insulate yourself from it, but more about keeping a bit more of the appearance of an open mind, which is what this discussion has been suffering from over the past year.

I mean, yeah, you can write this off as being blunt and rude and wrong, but I didn't have the balls to say it before now and I really wish I had. I gave Dojo every one of its logos and wrote reviews for you, and even though I'm not still involved, I do still want to see it succeed as much as possible. Which is why I'm saying that you're lacking in professionalism, here. Maybe it won't show on Dojo, but it really shows on NPF.

[Kim]

So, you're telling me that my bias against the game before it came out means that what I say against the game can't be trusted, even though I acknowledge what I consider good.

You're also telling me that what you say in favor of the game can be trusted, in spite of your bias in favor of the game before it came out, because you acknowledge what you consider bad.

Riiiiiiiight...

Why, Mr. Pot! Next you'll be telling me I'm a black kettle!

Another fun tidbit!

In the end I'll probably dislike some of the story aspects, hate the long drawn out tutorial (If Kingdom Hearts DS is anything to go by), and love the gameplay. Being realistic about the FF series' ability to pleasantly surprise me, it'll probably rank as my fourth or fifth favorite FF game.

So I was actually disappointed by this game, instead of it just meeting my expectations! Awesome!

[Azisien]

To be fair, I have found it beneficial to have next to no background knowledge about a game I plan on reviewing. Through hell or high water I even managed to avoid reading any previews on ME2, quite a feat!

Sir NonCon knows what he likes and dislikes, though!

[MFD]

Huh. I'm at Bahamut, and you know what would have made my last boss battle a punch to the gut?

A Snow/Fang chapter when we were doing the character oriented chapters. It would have been nice to actually feel something at Cid's decision to fuck his focus and try to stop you before you have to fulfill Popey's evil plan, but wait, it turns out his focus was to make sure you're stronger than he is so you can complete your focus, which is seemingly Popey's evil plan. And it would have been another hour or so to add to the game!

Also, as to not explaining what l'Cie and fal'Cie are at the very beginning... it's science fiction. The best science fiction throws out words you'll figure out later. I never read the datalogs, and I figured out pretty quickly that l'Cie were mages with a divine purpose, and that fal'Cie appeared to be living gods. It's not exactly right, but it's close enough in context that I'm not lost by the end of the first chapter...

Also, I agree with Krylo about Serah, though I think alot of it has to do with her schoolgirl uniform.

[bluestarultor]

So, you're telling me that my bias against the game before it came out means that what I say against the game can't be trusted, even though I acknowledge what I consider good.

You're also telling me that what you say in favor of the game can be trusted, in spite of your bias in favor of the game before it came out, because you acknowledge what you consider bad.

Riiiiiiiight...

Why, Mr. Pot! Next you'll be telling me I'm a black kettle!

Another fun tidbit!



So I was actually disappointed by this game, instead of it just meeting my expectations! Awesome!

Well, there's no denying that I was excited about the game. I tried to keep it more in terms of "give it a chance" territory, but, reflecting on this, I joined a wiki dedicated to the series over it, so I do see your point. My point was more in terms of, if I really was overblown positive about it, my positive opinions should be taken with a grain of salt, as well, and my negative opinions should be taken into consideration more easily.

Honestly, I could go on and on about what I like about the game, like how I love the way Hecatoncheir takes care of and protects Vanille, or how well-voiced the game is, or how Fang is awesome, but I've largely taken an explanatory role in things, answering questions, being pretty fair in saying I personally love it, but that it's not for everyone for specific reasons.

I mean, I'm not trying to shit on you, buddy. Just saying when you say bad stuff about the game, people take it with a grain of salt as much as when someone else, possibly me, fangasms over it, because it represents an extreme stance backed up by a year-long pre-bias.



I'd really like to end this line of conversation, because I sent you a PM where we can continue the root of this discussion, and I'd like to get this thread back onto the game.

Soooo... has anyone figured out what the heck Alexander does against enemies with no particular weaknesses? There's no Holy element in this one, so it's supposed to do "weakness-specific" damage, and I was wondering if that made it less effective against more moderated foes.

[Azisien]

Also, as to not explaining what l'Cie and fal'Cie are at the very beginning... it's science fiction. The best science fiction throws out words you'll figure out later.

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/fiction_rule_of_thumb.png

Agreed!

[MFD]

I don't think this game was so ridiculous with made-up words that you had to guess meanings of. Maybe it's just me.

[Kerensky287]

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/fiction_rule_of_thumb.png

Agreed!

You know I was about to go into a whole spiel on how many words Mass Effect makes up, but then I realized that damn near all of the made-up words are just names for alien species.

And the only made-up terms that I know of are l'Cie, fal'Cie, Cocoon, Pulse and the Purge. That's 5. They're all explained very quickly.

So... I guess that's a fairly accurate chart, actually. Starcraft is the exception. ZERG PROTOSS XEL'NAGA TASSADAR KHALIS URAJ OVERMIND AAAAAAAAAH

[Mirai Gen]

Yeah, they all fail if you're holding them up to the literary standards of classic literature, or even television.
Twilight has a great story compared to Zelda: Wand of Gamelon.

[Krylo]

So I decided to go ahead and beat it, on the end re: Nonsie

I don't think they had much choice other than to fight Orphan at that point. He was kind of attacking them and torturing them. So they pulled the general FF ending bit about doing the impossible, because fuck reality. I can see where you're coming from with them deciding to fight Orphan anyway, but it was pretty clear at that point that if they didn't a) they'd be killed or turned to C'ieth (again) and b) someone else would get saddled with the task. I don't see it as quite as large an issue as you do, but I do see where it would be seen that way.

Okay, Krylo, let me ask you something. In the beginning of the game, what sort of personality does Hope have, other than Whiny Brat?A self-conscious shy kid who just watched his mother die, and had everything he's ever known taken from him, all by the same person--at least in his eyes. Snow talked his mother into fighting (not really, but that's how Hope saw it), Snow was the reason he went to the Fal'Cie, and it's Snow's fault he ended up being there when they all became L'Cie. It's a little unfair to call him a whiny brat.

As for his personality outside that--he was just a shy kid who didn't really know how to talk to anyone.

When he's driven by revenge, what's his personality outside that?Same as before, but with some hero worship toward Lightning mixed in, which is completely understandable.

She represented everything he wished he could be. Strong, decisive, unafraid even in the face of insurmountable odds. Plus she is really good at punching Snow in the face.

But he was still the same unsure kid with a self-confidence issue underneath all that, which is why he molded himself to be like her so quickly.

Note: This hero worship lasts straight to the end. He's still quoting her well after getting over his "SNOW MUST DIE" phase. "It's not a question of can or can't, some things you just do."

When he's happy and driven and a Power Ranger, what's his personality outside that?At this point he's the same kid as before but he's started to come to terms with both himself and his father and has begun gaining some self-confidence for himself, as well as realizing that not EVERYTHING is lost and that he does still have something to fight for. Something he didn't believe he had when he had the mistaken idea that his father didn't care about him (because he was never around), and his mother was dead. But upon his father being, well, as you said, just about the best father in any FF game ever, and risking everything about himself just to help Hope out of a jam--he comes to the realization that he DOES have a home and his life isn't over. He has a reason to try and survive.


EDIT: No, Krylo, you weren't the only one creeped out by it, but I ran out of Snow is a pedophile jokes before the game came out. :/

It creeps me out less now that I know she's eighteen. It was still a LITTLE weird watching them hug at the end and stuff, but the "UGGGGH PEEEEDO" thing wasn't screaming quite as loud in my head.

ALSO: FUCK ORPHAN FUCK HIM ARGH! I died to that prick like five fucking times to his fucking instant death bullshit move and I didn't have any of those fucking cherub what the fuck evers to increase my death resistance. FUCKER CAN GO RIGHT TO FUCKING HELL FUCKING FUCKITY FUCK FUCK FUCK!

Second form was pathetically easy, though. Was kind of a waste to even make me fight him. I had like 2800 or some shit left on my death counter when he went down.

In lighter news, what's everyone's favorite group?

I kept Lightning as leader pretty much the whole game 'cause it just felt right somehow, and kept Vanille around most of the time with Sazh. Up until Hope learned haste, at which time Hope's ridiculously high magic score won him a place over Sazh.

[Kim]

@Krylo: I guess I meant they were lacking wholly pointless personality traits. Those are generally the kinds of things that endear a character to me. Hobbies and that sort of thing. I know the Dragon Age characters had those, as do the Persona 4 characters. You have a point in that I wasn't giving the characters as much credit as they deserved, but as dynamic as they were, they weren't that interesting to me, and I think it's a combination of how hard the game works to make me dislike them in the beginning, and the lack of these utterly pointless personality traits. Maybe I'm being unfair to them, and I'd like to sit down and look at stuff from various jRPGs side by side to see if that gives me any added perspective on the matter, but I really don't have the time.

Agree with you about Orphan. The bullshit death spell killed me far too many times, because of the MC Dead = Game Over thing, and it's even earned itself a special section in my review.

My party for most of the near end game was usually Lightning, Vanille, Sazh or Lightning, Fang, Hope. I prefered the former to the latter, because I didn't enjoy running Lightning as a Ravager as much as I did a Commando, but the latter was my party for the final boss fight.

I'm right at Orphan's Cradle currently, so I don't know if things change, but up to now the main villain telling them what's up was part of his plan. He's breaking down their hope. This is also why he sends them to Pulse. They're looking for a way out of their focus, so he sends them there so that they can discover there IS no way out of their focus.

Like the load game screen says--all Bart has to do now is break down their hope so one of them succumbs to their focus. He manipulated them into going where they need to be and as slowly stripped away all their hope. If he had lied to them about their focus, or what he wanted them to do, they might think they have a chance at overcoming it.

By doing the opposite and telling them exactly what he wanted out of them he set the idea that there WAS no escape from their fates in their minds. He's playing a very subtle mind game with them, and I'll probably see how that turns out tonight.

Returning to this, my main question is why didn't Barth get some other character to tell them directly or have someone "leak" the information that Orphan is responsible for it all, and if they become Ragnarok and destroy it, they'll have saved Cocoon and completed their focus.

They don't need to become overcome by despair or whatever to become Ragnarok, as the whole thing with Serah and Fang at the end shows when they become Ragnarok at will to save Cocoon. Convincing them that this is the right thing to do, and will free them from their focus would have been the more intelligent thing to do. Even if he didn't think they could win against their focus, this still seems like what a smart villain would do. What he actually did feels more akin to a cheesy comic book villain.

[MFD]

So far, and this might change, but I use Lightning, Fang, and Sazh. With Sazh in the lead because I hate how the Auto-Support does Haste, Faith/Vigilance, Bravery. I usually tack Bravery (or En-Weakness) to the turn I use Haste.

[Kim]

Yahtzee didn't like it, which is no surprise, but I'm still annoyed that he constantly uses his incredibly limited experience with the genre as a basis for judging it as a whole.

Yahtzee: "Why can't I just go up to the enemy and press X?"
Me: "You mean like in Kingdom Hearts?"

Yahtzee: "I don't like the battle transition!"
Me: "FFXII and Kingdom Hearts lack those, and they aren't the only ones."

I dunno. Just bothers me.

[bluestarultor]

Yahtzee didn't like it, which is no surprise, but I'm still annoyed that he constantly uses his incredibly limited experience with the genre as a basis for judging it as a whole.

Yahtzee: "Why can't I just go up to the enemy and press X?"
Me: "You mean like in Kingdom Hearts?"

Yahtzee: "I don't like the battle transition!"
Me: "FFXII and Kingdom Hearts lack those, and they aren't the only ones."

I dunno. Just bothers me.

It irks me most that he only gave it five hours. I watched it just to see what he'd have to say about it, but half the video was literal empty space and the other half was totally vacuous and devoid of real information.

The only thing you can take from the thing is that he doesn't like JRPGs and didn't have enough material to even rag on it decently, which is a disappointment.

[Kim]

Only giving it five hours is actually pretty fair from a game reviewing perspective, since any other genre could have justified itself in that time. Doesn't make sense from a jRPG perspective, but I can't really hold it against him.

[Ravashak]

In chapter 7 now, enjoying it a great deal, busy bringing the band back together, it seems. Became a Lightning fan as soon as she started smashing Snow in the face, repeatedly. So far, I like the character interaction, especially with the log to give some more of an inside look, as well as a possibility to look back on it as reference.

I found Odin to be pretty nasty

[Mirai Gen]

Yahtzee's review is actually pretty fair - Noobtoob for example said that they were tired of Final Fantasy 13 and people defended it saying it got better a good 15 hours in. That's not much of a justification when most games usually take about 8-10 hours to utterly complete themselves.

They also brought up an excellent point in saying that a game being criticized for being 'too short' is a useless criticism. Saying it's too short means that they knew how much content they had to spread over the course of an entire game and didn't overexert themselves. This is why Portal is sheer awesome - it may be short but any longer and it'd officially be overwhelming.

I do find it kind of funny that his criticisms are largely the same as Noncon's, minus absolutely everything about the combat anyway.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

All I have to say is if you have to wait 15 hours for a game to be good, that game is shit.

[bluestarultor]

All I have to say is if you have to wait 15 hours for a game to be good, that game is shit.

It's more a "your mileage may vary" thing. In all honesty, it only takes about an hour to open up the major additions to combat, and two hours or so until your ability to summon.

If you can forgive the party, the beginning isn't totally terrible. Many people just can't forgive the party. I'll admit I'm willing to tolerate a worse party than most, but that's paradoxically from my cynicism concerning the quality of characters these days. As long as they don't have screechy voices and outright terrible lines, I'll probably just deal.

[Kim]

I'd say it took about five hours for the combat to get good, because I really didn't like playing as Sazh and Vanille at first because two ravagers against shit made some fights take forever and then I got pissed off at the game for giving me zero stars like a whore.

[Krylo]

I'd say it took about five hours for the combat to get good, because I really didn't like playing as Sazh and Vanille at first because two ravagers against shit made some fights take forever and then I got pissed off at the game for giving me zero stars like a whore.

I know this is too late to matter NOW, but Saboteurs slow down the stagger gauge's (or wtfever it's called) depletion just like commando. Also, you only really have to hit an enemy with saboteur/commando attacks once and then you can switch to full ravager to stagger the most quickly.

Still slower than a commando/ravager group, 'cause it's harder to control where the debuffs go, but not that bad.

[Kim]

Yeah, I think I actually noticed that later on in the game, I was just pissed at the time because I had no idea about that, and was just running dual ravagers most of the time, with Sazh occasionally buffing.

[bluestarultor]

Yeah, there's a lot of stuff people don't realize until they're told. Here's a short list:

- As mentioned, Saboteur spells stop the Chain gauge from falling like Commando attacks. I believe at least some of them also raise the bar as high as Ravager spells, but I may be mistaken.
- Many people believe Eidolons have a low damage output, but this isn't true if you use them right. The more Gestalt you have left, the more damage the finisher does based on the "level" the remaining points show. The finishers can do tens of thousands of damage if you play them right. Most people just spam the attacks and end up with a really low level for piss-poor damage.
- There's a trick where if you switch between similar paradigms (like the difference of one role) with a small bit of charge in the ATB bar, you will get a free full bar. Many people think it's random or is supposed to happen all the time.
- I don't know how many people fall prey to this, but with Medics, Saboteurs, and Synergists, if all buffs/debuffs/heals are full, they're effectively paralyzed, because the AI is left without any way to provide additional benefit. This frustrated Phantom before I told him what was going on, because he thought it was just useless AI.

[MFD]

... Sazh and Vanille I usually used Slash and Burn (COM/RAV). Dualcast (Rav2) only came in useful for Brynhildr.

Although I have been neglecting the Saboteur class for awhile. I might try a Rav2/SAB paradigm at some point.

I'm currently in Chapter 11 and taking some time to earn stuff to sell for monies for upgrades by doing the missions.

[krogothwolf]

- There's a trick where if you switch between similar paradigms (like the difference of one role) with a small bit of charge in the ATB bar, you will get a free full bar. Many people think it's random or is supposed to happen all the time.


How this works is, you charge up an full ATB and then after the attack switch and you get a free ATB. So every second ATB you get 2.

So you have

Relentless Assault
Diversity
Relentless Assault

You start the battle as Relentless Assault, the gauge charges and you attack, then you switch to second Relentless Assault and smash him right away with another round. Charge up the gauge one more time and attack. Then switch to Diversity(cause you got smacked) and get a free attack/heal.

Rinse and Repeat. Makes things insanely easy.

[bluestarultor]

How this works is, you charge up an full ATB and then after the attack switch and you get a free ATB. So every second ATB you get 2.

So you have

Relentless Assault
Diversity
Relentless Assault

You start the battle as Relentless Assault, the gauge charges and you attack, then you switch to second Relentless Assault and smash him right away with another round. Charge up the gauge one more time and attack. Then switch to Diversity(cause you got smacked) and get a free attack/heal.

Rinse and Repeat. Makes things insanely easy.

Actually, no. The way it works is that if you have any charge in the bar, you get a free full bar after you change. So you start in Diversity, let a bit charge into it, switch to Relentless Assault, take the free full bar, let a bit charge into it, switch back, take the free full bar, and so on and so forth.

[krogothwolf]

Actually, no. The way it works is that if you have any charge in the bar, you get a free full bar after you change. So you start in Diversity, let a bit charge into it, switch to Relentless Assault, take the free full bar, let a bit charge into it, switch back, take the free full bar, and so on and so forth.

Nope, doesn't work that way actually. I've experimented a lot with it. you need to charge it up once before you can swap, a half charge will seem like it fills up based on the time it takes to do the shift, so it really doesn't automatically charge up. But if you swap right after attacking with a full charged ATB, switch and you get a Free ATB, let it charge again, attack with ATB, switch and get free ATB.

[bluestarultor]

Nope, doesn't work that way actually. I've experimented a lot with it. you need to charge it up once before you can swap, a half charge will seem like it fills up based on the time it takes to do the shift, so it really doesn't automatically charge up. But if you swap right after attacking with a full charged ATB, switch and you get a Free ATB, let it charge again, attack with ATB, switch and get free ATB.

I see. I do know that if you shift to a totally different paradigm, though, that the ATB bar starts over after you finish, so you can see where I'm coming from.

Good to know, though.

[krogothwolf]

I see. I do know that if you shift to a totally different paradigm, though, that the ATB bar starts over after you finish, so you can see where I'm coming from.

Good to know, though.

Yeah I know, But I spent a bit experiment with this to figure out how to get an advantage from the whole thing, after noticing it while immidently switching from Relentless to Diversity in one fight after I got hit hard and went "what, free ATB? Woohoo! Free heal!"

[Kim]

My FFXIII Review (http://www.gamepad-dojo.com/?p=987)

I don't normally like to link my reviews here, but I figure the sheer amount of bitching I did, I should at least show what the end result of that bitching was, even if just so people could go "Your review is wrong/stupid/too fucking long!"

[Krylo]

Too much time bitching about the story/characters (which totally weren't as bad as FVIII, you exaggerator), and not enough time bitching about the mechanics irritations and Orphan's first form.

[Kim]

(which totally weren't as bad as FVIII, you exaggerator)

XIII certainly isn’t as bad as those twoI don't recall ever saying it was.

EDIT: I guess you're referring to my "FFVIII of the PS3 era" line. I'm not saying the stuff was as bad as FFVIII, just that FFVIII was the worst received PSX Final Fantasy (as far as I know), and I expect FFXIII will be viewed the same way.

EDIT2: Argh I forgot to make fun of the dialogue URGHBLEH.

[Regulus Tera]

A laugh-track is precisely what this game needed: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkfI2_ovUuE

[bluestarultor]

A laugh-track is precisely what this game needed: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkfI2_ovUuE

Would be pretty decent of it were more "OOOOOHHH!" and "AWWWWW!" and "*GASP!*" rather than laughing. Laughing at all that stuff is pretty much crap.

[Aldurin]

Just finished the game so I'm gonna rejoin this thread and I have to ask, am I the only one who thinks that Fang and Vanille's relationship is a bit more intimate than "family"?

Also, curse you adamantoises, I'll get you, and that Megochu too!!

[bluestarultor]

Just finished the game so I'm gonna rejoin this thread and I have to ask, am I the only one who thinks that Fang and Vanille's relationship is a bit more intimate than "family"?

Also, curse you adamantoises, I'll get you, and that Megochu too!!

In the Japanese version, it was even worse. Fang would flirt with Vanille all the time.

Basically, the indication is probably less outright that Fang is a lesbian and more that the two are quite close and Fang likes messing with her, since it's very casual from what I understand (in the Japanese). Fang basically raised the girl much like Lightning raised Serah.

[Yumil]

In the Japanese version, it was even worse. Fang would flirt with Vanille all the time.

Basically, the indication is probably less outright that Fang is a lesbian and more that the two are quite close and Fang likes messing with her, since it's very casual from what I understand (in the Japanese). Fang basically raised the girl much like Lightning raised Serah.

They do say that everyone shared absolutely everything in their village, that there was no property, so it's quite possible that they shared each other too>.<

[bluestarultor]

They do say that everyone shared absolutely everything in their village, that there was no property, so it's quite possible that they shared each other too>.<

That's a huge logical leap there, bud. Houston out.


Kidding aside, there's no reason to ascribe it to that when it's much more logical that Fang just has boundary issues. Thinking of it this way, if there's no concept of personal property, there's probably less of a concept of personal space and privacy. That doesn't mean so much that people copulated at random and more that they might just ask a neighbor for a cup of sugar while they're in the shower and no one cared.

Basically, what seems sexual to normal (our) society probably didn't matter much to them.

[Yumil]

That's a huge logical leap there, bud. Houston out.


Kidding aside, there's no reason to ascribe it to that when it's much more logical that Fang just has boundary issues. Thinking of it this way, if there's no concept of personal property, there's probably less of a concept of personal space and privacy. That doesn't mean so much that people copulated at random and more that they might just ask a neighbor for a cup of sugar while they're in the shower and no one cared.

Basically, what seems sexual to normal (our) society probably didn't matter much to them.
Come on now, fantasies are awesome.

Edit: Actually considering that there are Cie'th stones that talk about wives/family, I assume it wasn't how I said, but my moon jump in logic made a funny image.

[Aldurin]

I still think there is something more serious implied in that. The argument they had post-eidolon battle, with "Hecaton" as Vanille calls it, seemed almost more like a "girlfriend/boyfriend" argument than a "family" argument.

And their position in the crystal formation at the very end ruins any hope of believing that they're simply friends. It was already revealed that any clothing they have vanishes during the period of crystalization. Way too kinky to avoid debate.

[Krylo]

I guess if you're a massive perv, maybe.

I never collected any 'gonna fuck her now' vibe.

[Aldurin]

I guess if you're a massive perv, maybe.

I never collected any 'gonna fuck her now' vibe.

Not that severe of a reading, but more like a pile of subtleties throughout the game and cutscenes.

I just read NonCon's review and I have to agree on the idiocy of villages being to hard to make in HD. That bullshit is so bad, it's like saying that rendering a checker set in the old polygonal system is impossible. Insomniac Games, which has around 100 people working there, will churn out bright, vibrant locales, ruins, villages and still have time to make their games awesome. Also, in case any of you say that all their locations look like Cocoon in one way or another, they have done natural environments (even in the PS3 era) and could probably make Cocoon better, shinier, have more random flying shit, make it actually look like it was responding to an attack (where are the sirens, the lights, the mounted turrets that automatically shoot at anything that does and doesn't move?), and make it shinier.

Having finally played a Final Fantasy game, I now understand why this is the most heavily criticized the franchise in gaming history. Especially with its own games compared to each other. Something about this game just says "our developers in here know that everything they put in is right, and even if you bitch about the game when you buy it, you still bought the game so it's their victory".

Also, anybody else feel the need to play an action game after finishing the game? I literally haven't played it since I've finished and I've been on MAG and Uncharted 2 since then.

[BloodyMage]

Also, anybody else feel the need to play an action game after finishing the game? I literally haven't played it since I've finished and I've been on MAG and Uncharted 2 since then.

I haven't even finished it and I felt the need to play something else.

[Kim]

Actually, thinking Fang and Vanille are lovers isn't that far-fetched. It's certainly no more far-fetched than thinking Gremio and the main character in Suikoden are lovers. It isn't said outright, but you could make a very fair argument for it being implied.

[Donomni]

I just read NonCon's review and I have to agree on the idiocy of villages being to hard to make in HD. That bullshit is so bad, it's like saying that rendering a checker set in the old polygonal system is impossible.

It is bullshit, merely due to the existence of FFXIV, which more or less needs TOWNZ due to being, you know, an MMORPG.

Seriously, normally SE is much more sneaky with BSing, but this was so blatant it hurts.

[Kim]

I just read NonCon's review

The funny thing is, the FFXIII review is actually one of my least favorite reviews I've done. Or, at least, it's one I keep beating myself up over. The main reason is that while the reasons I gave for not liking the characters are probably part of it, I think there are bigger forces at play.

1. It's not so much the first impression, the more I think about it, but how long they stick to the first impression. Hope seriously doesn't become likable for at least twenty hours in. That is a long time for a bad first impression to last, and as such I had a much harder time changing my opinion of him later on.

2. The biggest problem with the characters was probably the dialogue, and I don't think I mentioned it at all. There is some really, really, really bad dialogue in there, and I failed to even give an example. Bad dialogue doesn't stand out in older games, because it isn't voice acted, and thus awkward lines are less noticeable. In modern games with voice acting, bad dialogue is a giant, pink elephant in the middle of the room. FFXIII is also very cutscene heavy, because most jRPGs are, so I was regularly exposed to the bad dialogue. Maybe the dialogue wasn't bad most of the time, but inevitably, the bad stands out more than the good in cases like these. There weren't any particularly brilliant bits of dialogue to compensate, either.

The more I review the more I look at my older reviews and go "I should have been meaner here, or nicer there, or this doesn't fit in with how I score lately." It's very frustrating, because I made a rule I wouldn't edit reviews after-the-fact, so at some point in the future I'm going to have to write up a big, long essay about things I'd change in my reviews if I wrote them today, or whatever.

[bluestarultor]

The funny thing is, the FFXIII review is actually one of my least favorite reviews I've done. Or, at least, it's one I keep beating myself up over. The main reason is that while the reasons I gave for not liking the characters are probably part of it, I think there are bigger forces at play.

1. It's not so much the first impression, the more I think about it, but how long they stick to the first impression. Hope seriously doesn't become likable for at least twenty hours in. That is a long time for a bad first impression to last, and as such I had a much harder time changing my opinion of him later on.

2. The biggest problem with the characters was probably the dialogue, and I don't think I mentioned it at all. There is some really, really, really bad dialogue in there, and I failed to even give an example. Bad dialogue doesn't stand out in older games, because it isn't voice acted, and thus awkward lines are less noticeable. In modern games with voice acting, bad dialogue is a giant, pink elephant in the middle of the room. FFXIII is also very cutscene heavy, because most jRPGs are, so I was regularly exposed to the bad dialogue. Maybe the dialogue wasn't bad most of the time, but inevitably, the bad stands out more than the good in cases like these. There weren't any particularly brilliant bits of dialogue to compensate, either.

The more I review the more I look at my older reviews and go "I should have been meaner here, or nicer there, or this doesn't fit in with how I score lately." It's very frustrating, because I made a rule I wouldn't edit reviews after-the-fact, so at some point in the future I'm going to have to write up a big, long essay about things I'd change in my reviews if I wrote them today, or whatever.

You could always do a "second look" series. I think it might be a good opportunity to help add to and explain your older reviews whenever you get the time to do it between releases.

[Aldurin]

The funny thing is, the FFXIII review is actually one of my least favorite reviews I've done. Or, at least, it's one I keep beating myself up over. The main reason is that while the reasons I gave for not liking the characters are probably part of it, I think there are bigger forces at play.

1. It's not so much the first impression, the more I think about it, but how long they stick to the first impression. Hope seriously doesn't become likable for at least twenty hours in. That is a long time for a bad first impression to last, and as such I had a much harder time changing my opinion of him later on.

2. The biggest problem with the characters was probably the dialogue, and I don't think I mentioned it at all. There is some really, really, really bad dialogue in there, and I failed to even give an example. Bad dialogue doesn't stand out in older games, because it isn't voice acted, and thus awkward lines are less noticeable. In modern games with voice acting, bad dialogue is a giant, pink elephant in the middle of the room. FFXIII is also very cutscene heavy, because most jRPGs are, so I was regularly exposed to the bad dialogue. Maybe the dialogue wasn't bad most of the time, but inevitably, the bad stands out more than the good in cases like these. There weren't any particularly brilliant bits of dialogue to compensate, either.

The more I review the more I look at my older reviews and go "I should have been meaner here, or nicer there, or this doesn't fit in with how I score lately." It's very frustrating, because I made a rule I wouldn't edit reviews after-the-fact, so at some point in the future I'm going to have to write up a big, long essay about things I'd change in my reviews if I wrote them today, or whatever.

Dear God, the dialogue was bad. It's like a freakin' Japanese drama, oh wait. The more I think about those cutscenes the more I want to watch every cutscene in the Ratchet & Clank series just to wash it out. The only thing I ever liked about Hope was that he was both a Medic and a Synergist.

I don't think I'm even gonna bother getting all of the remaining trophies, not because of the sheer difficulty, but because of the mental anguish that would ensue (I don't even want to think about how many items I don't have yet, or fighting the "heavy weight" that replaces the adamantoises after some mission which is probably just as hard if not harder.)

[Kim]

The tragic thing about all this is I love FFXIII's gameplay a lot, except for the part where it is nothing but fighting. I would really like to see the combat come back tweaked and improved, as well as the leveling system come back without the restrictions and add in a lot more roles so it's like FFT's Job System or something. That would be boss.

[BloodyMage]

I would enjoy that immensely.

[Aldurin]

They need to stop recycling enemies so heavily.

Around 7 pantheron versions.
About 6 or 7 types of behemoths.
And a bajillion types of oozes.

It's a testament to their creativity.

[Kim]

Yeah, but to be fair, that's plagued the series forever now. It's not a new problem. Hell, it isn't FF exclusive. Tons of games have that problem.

[bluestarultor]

Yeah, seriously. An old practice born out of palette swapping to save on limited cartridge space just kind of stuck around and grew into re-skins when 3D hit for the same reason on CDs and finally just kind of stuck around after technology had improved beyond it because it meant you could use the same base for several enemies, recolor them, and add a few additional details for flavor.

Speaking of flavor, a lot of the Flans made me hungry. XD

[Donomni]

Even the ones made out of rust?

[Aldurin]

Is anyone else somewhat disturbed that Sahz's main internal conflict was whether or not to shoot Vanille (or himself) because of what happened to his son?

[Kim]

Yes, but it's a good disturbed. I think it's one of the better internal conflicts amongst Squeenix properties. Of course, I find I'm a big fan of Squeenix relationships that revolve around the whole father-son thing. Take Vagrant Story, for example.

[Aldurin]

Speaking of that part, what the crap is that female commander talking about when she says "For every task, there's the perfect tool."

There's no apparent context, the camera changes indicate that it's an significant phrase, but it doesn't make sense during the trailer or during the game.

[Kim]

Maybe about making the l'Cie kill each other, rather than risking her own soldiers? I don't remember the scene, but I think that'd make sense.

[Aldurin]

Maybe, but it's still pretty vague.

[Kim]

Eh, this game's villains were all around pretty lame, and she was probably the lamest of them, though Captain Commander Douchebag's uber-cliche I'll explode myself to slow them down nonsense didn't win him any points with me either.

[bluestarultor]

Speaking of that part, what the crap is that female commander talking about when she says "For every task, there's the perfect tool."

There's no apparent context, the camera changes indicate that it's an significant phrase, but it doesn't make sense during the trailer or during the game.

Maybe about making the l'Cie kill each other, rather than risking her own soldiers? I don't remember the scene, but I think that'd make sense.

Actually, she might be referencing using them as bait for the others. Because she knows there are others. It just isn't very clear because you see that part from the rest of the party's perspective.

The reason she's telling them to be careful is because she just beaned Sazh upside the head to knock him out and he's in a heavy container, so dropping him could cause some serious injury that wouldn't benefit her plans. After all, if they busted his neck and killed him, that would be one less hostage and might make the party re-think risking their hides to save Vanille, or at least not make as good of a press release, which is what she used to set the trap.

[Kim]

I get the impression that either of the villains except Superpope cuz fuck that could have been interesting if the story had chosen to just have that villain and focus on him/her. As much as I didn't like Jihl and Loz, they had more potential to be interesting villains, but only if they didn't have to share Villain-Time.

[bluestarultor]

I get the impression that either of the villains except Superpope cuz fuck that could have been interesting if the story had chosen to just have that villain and focus on him/her. As much as I didn't like Jihl and Loz, they had more potential to be interesting villains, but only if they didn't have to share Villain-Time.

Well, at least Yaag got some resolution. Maybe it was rather pointless, but it was aimed in the direction of heel face turn heroic sacrifice. Jihl was just pointless. They made a character guaranteed to make you hate her and then you have victory swept out from under you for absolutely nothing. It was very unsatisfying. I mean, what kind of cock-block is "ENTER GIANT ROOM! WORLD CLASS BITCH SMILES AT YOU SMUGLY, LIKE SHE KNOWS SHE HAS YOU! BITCH SAYS SOMETHING AWESOME AND JUMPS DOWN! INITIATE EPIC BA- oh, wait, she just got killed by a Ruin spell to the back."

Seriously, I get that her killing you wasn't in Barthandelus' plans for the party, but he's immortal for crying out loud. You can't tell me he couldn't have waited for a few minutes and let you get that much stronger for beating her. Hell, it would have even highlighted his immense power and disregard for human life to basically look at her after the battle, beaten, but not giving up, and say something like, "I simply don't need you anymore," and THEN massacre the station with everyone knowing full well what's coming and being powerless to resist or escape.

[Kim]

Yaag I think would have been a better villain if he had remained the villain to the end, and not done the cliche heroic sacrifice. Even his heroic sacrifice was lame and cliche compared to others. Also, being the main villain and the focus of that would have helped, too. I mean, guy who is so controlled by his fear of the different and unknown, as well as his desire to protect what he holds dear from the different and unknown, that he ultimately goes to desperate, self-destructive lengths in the name of protecting Cocoon would be a far more interesting main villain than Superpope.

[Aldurin]

Why doesn't FF shoot for at least decent replayability? All they do is warp back to before the final boss, and even then the first part of the game is something I don't want to do twice (that chapter with Lightning and Hope in the biofacilitymajig was waaaaaaaay too long).

I mean, Ratchet and Clank does a challenge mode where you start over but you keep everything, fight tougher foes, and be able to get more stuff.

They should at least try to do something rather than leaving us before the boss with *gasp* another crystarium level!!! Which is much more expensive and thus requires a sacrifice of your sanity to fill!!