Things that should be done to break the piracy debate.

[bluestarultor]

Okay, so we've talked about piracy, and had a thread locked asking if we pirated, so this is a place to suggest what could be done to fix, de-criminalize, or actually discourage piracy.


This is NOT a place to suggest pirating, provide ways of pirating, etc. This is taking the problem and finding a give-and-take solution that makes sense for both sides.



I'm going to start off with a favored topic of mine: abandonware. There is legal abandonware, and then there are illegal oldwarez. If a company is not gaining anything from a property and has no plans to do so, I think it's easier to release it, rather than try to fight to protect it and wasting time, energy, and money. Or better yet, continue to sell it for a nominal fee, like 3D Realms. Digital distribution is removing barriers to cost like packaging and CD printing. After that point, any amount you charge is pure profit, minus hosting. And if you can still gain profits from a 20-year-old game, it means that people get the game they want for cheap, you get money you didn't even know you wanted for profit, and nobody has any reason to complain.

In terms of DRM, keep it in the medium the game takes place in. If you have it on CD, do a CD key or CD check. If it's digital, a key should be fine on its own. If the game is offline, keep the security offline. You can put a certain amount of security on a game to deter casual piracy, which is really all you can hope for, without hurting the consumer.




Anyone else have ideas?



EDIT: Fuck, I made this in the wrong forum. Move plz? :sweatdrop

[krogothwolf]

First, I'd like to say that I was extremely disappointed Seil was talking about pirating digital crap and not awesome pirates in movie/tv history. Or being a seafaring pirate yourself. I was extremely sad by that fact.

I personally would love to see more old games be sold for cheap. Steam and GOG.Com are great for me because I get old classics I love to play. I disagree with pirating because it really doesn't hurt the company at all that much and would more then anything hurt the people working on their project because their worth seems based on whether the thing sells or not. I have no problem paying money for a game thats worth it. If it isn't worth it I wont buy it, and if it has stupid DRM that's idiotic then I wont buy it either. It's consumer choice man! Piracy will never be stopped, people will always get free stuff because they don't want to spend money or are cheap. The whole I pirate because of DRM just seems to me to be a cop out to make them feel better. I do agree with what SMB said though, sometimes Pirating gets you a superior product and I wish it wasn't the case. But even so I wont do it, it's bad for my mojo!

I really wish DUngeon keeper and Dungeon Keeper 2 would get resold. God I loved those games :(

[Osterbaum]

I disagree with pirating because it really doesn't hurt the company at all that much and would more then anything hurt the people working on their project because their worth seems based on whether the thing sells or not.
I really don't see people buying all the stuff they download. People pirate a lot because it's FREE. If it wasn't, people most certainly wouldn't buy all the stuff they're now pirating.

[bluestarultor]

I really don't see people buying all the stuff they download. People pirate a lot because it's FREE. If it wasn't, people most certainly wouldn't buy all the stuff they're now pirating.

Counterpoint: if there's less DRM, there's less reason to take it as a challenge and therefore make the software available to pirates. In the absence of backlash, many people will feel better about supporting the companies making the games because they won't have the self-righteous feeling doing it because there won't be bad press. Yes, people may eventually get the game for free, but the crack team of hackers won't be there tirelessly working on it for them, so it will take much longer and may suffer in quality. Many more people will buy a good game they agree with to get it earlier than will wait longer for a game everyone else has already played just because they don't want to pay for it. Humans work much better in the concrete present than the abstract future. Piracy may even become a stigma in that climate because people will wait around to get a pirate copy of a game others have already beaten, leaving pirates "behind" on the information front, which is seen as less socially acceptable. It will also highlight the illegality of it in concrete terms, because the people who wait around for a crack will be seen as hard-headed and unreasonable, removing much of their justification.

See where I'm going with this?

[Amake]

My solution is to wait for the market to self-destruct and better alternatives to be invented. Preferably something based on non-commercialism. I believe the greatest art will made by those who don't need to sell it to make a living.

On a sidenote, remember World of Goo? It had no copy protection whatsoever, but it did include a simple online component that let the designer say with some authority a few weeks after launch that 90% of the players had not paid for it. Then he was all "Whatevs it sold a lot anyway." I wouldn't mind if certain bigass corporations could show the same confidence as this lone starving artist.

[Seil]

First, I'd like to say that I was extremely disappointed Seil was talking about pirating digital crap and not awesome pirates in movie/tv history. Or being a seafaring pirate yourself. I was extremely sad by that fact.Arrr? (http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u59/Poetisch/Arr.jpg)

You could still probably do that, if you want. Anyways, as I PM'd Synk,

Eh, it was more in the vein of continuing discussions from the former pirating thread then anything else. I was curious as to what people on NPF meant when they say "I understand pirating is wrong."

I was wondering what parameters forumites were establishing when talk about pirating, because it seems like most people have a situational feel about it, and I was hoping to have people expand on that...So yeah.

On a sidenote, remember World of Goo? It had no copy protection whatsoever, but it did include a simple online component that let the designer say with some authority a few weeks after launch that 90% of the players had not paid for it. Then he was all "Whatevs it sold a lot anyway." I wouldn't mind if certain bigass corporations could show the same confidence as this lone starving artist.Most people don't like starving, that's the thing.

[bluestarultor]

I'm surprised that nobody's jumped onto using that simple online component to actually, y'know, track piracy numbers. If it's in World of Goo, it can't be that hard to do, no offense to the creator, given that big companies have a teensy bit more than one guy working on coding a given project. You'd think developers would be on that like white on rice.

[synkr0nized]

Oh, this is a good place for me to ask you, Blues, since I didn't want to tard up that other thread with this discussion.

Do you have references - that aren't Abandonia's pages - that prove the legality of "abandonware"? I found none today when I went poking about, and most of what I came across affirmed the illegality of it regardless of the very positive and good intentions of the people running such sites. I ask this not to argue with you, but because I really want to know what legal standing these sites are sitting on.

I saw provisions for public/library archives and free reign for software that has fallen out of copyright, but for most software it appears that the copyright should still be protecting it. Not being able to purchase something and/or lack of action on the part of the copyright holders wasn't meant to be construed as a green light to go.

Here's some stuff I came across:

Gamespot article that interviews game developers, abandonware site owners, and some gamers (http://www.gamespot.com/gamespot/features/pc/abandonware/)

US copyright law allows an exemption (http://www.copyright.gov/1201/docs/librarian_statement_01.html) for places, such as the Internet Archive [who pushed for this], to have non-infringing uses of such software to be able to preserve software without the copy protection schemes it may have once had (eg: requiring a dongle to be attached to the machine, obsolete source media). This is not claiming it is OK for users to download free copies of the software.

On the other hand, the Orphan Works Act of 2006 (http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c109:H.R.5439:) seems to provide provisions for "infringers" to be fine if they conduct a "reasonable search" for the correct information and original copyright holder, etc. Technically speaking, though I am no lawyer, it doesn't appear to count "hey we can't buy this in a store" as a reasonable search.

more info overall, including the 2008 update to the same act (http://www.copyright.gov/orphan/); not much different



e: I forgot to note that I agree with you that it's much easier, on all sides, to recognize that people like older software and to release it in some fashion, either as a free download [hey, some companies are doing this -- see our C&C discussion, Sim City, etc.] or, like you suggested, for some nominal fee. The legal fees and unnecessary trouble of going through the rig-amoral is likely one of the reasons abandonware sites don't get bugged too much, especially when the original software company doesn't exist any more.

[Jagos]

Shamus Young (http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=1558) is our friend. And I'm sure that our friends in Brazil (http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/issues/issue_201/6059-A-Nation-of-Pirates) can attest to what happens when copyright is too strong.

Let's not forget, when a server is shut down (http://www.wired.com/gamelife/2010/01/ea-server-closure/) there's even more to complain to people about. Who has control of your game if they're no longer supported? These are the type of questions people should be asking when a game can just shut down without any way to enjoy a game you want to play.

[Ryong]

Shamus Young (http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=1558) is our friend. And I'm sure that our friends in Brazil (http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/issues/issue_201/6059-A-Nation-of-Pirates) can attest to what happens when copyright is too strong.

You mean when games cost twice their original price, but everyone is about twice as poor as in the place the game was made. Crazy pricing, not sure if crazy copyright.

[bluestarultor]

Oh, this is a good place for me to ask you, Blues, since I didn't want to tard up that other thread with this discussion.

Do you have references - that aren't Abandonia's pages - that prove the legality of "abandonware"? I found none today when I went poking about, and most of what I came across affirmed the illegality of it regardless of the very positive and good intentions of the people running such sites. I ask this not to argue with you, but because I really want to know what legal standing these sites are sitting on.

I saw provisions for public/library archives and free reign for software that has fallen out of copyright, but for most software it appears that the copyright should still be protecting it. Not being able to purchase something and/or lack of action on the part of the copyright holders wasn't meant to be construed as a green light to go.

Here's some stuff I came across:

Gamespot article that interviews game developers, abandonware site owners, and some gamers (http://www.gamespot.com/gamespot/features/pc/abandonware/)

US copyright law allows an exemption (http://www.copyright.gov/1201/docs/librarian_statement_01.html) for places, such as the Internet Archive [who pushed for this], to have non-infringing uses of such software to be able to preserve software without the copy protection schemes it may have once had (eg: requiring a dongle to be attached to the machine, obsolete source media). This is not claiming it is OK for users to download free copies of the software.

On the other hand, the Orphan Works Act of 2006 (http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c109:H.R.5439:) seems to provide provisions for "infringers" to be fine if they conduct a "reasonable search" for the correct information and original copyright holder, etc. Technically speaking, though I am no lawyer, it doesn't appear to count "hey we can't buy this in a store" as a reasonable search.

more info overall, including the 2008 update to the same act (http://www.copyright.gov/orphan/); not much different



e: I forgot to note that I agree with you that it's much easier, on all sides, to recognize that people like older software and to release it in some fashion, either as a free download [hey, some companies are doing this -- see our C&C discussion, Sim City, etc.] or, like you suggested, for some nominal fee. The legal fees and unnecessary trouble of going through the rig-amoral is likely one of the reasons abandonware sites don't get bugged too much, especially when the original software company doesn't exist any more.

Well, it's a lot more complicated than "not being able to buy it." See, abandonware, in the definition I'm most familiar with and personally use, is software which has been either intentionally abandoned by the parent or which doesn't fall under any other legal ownership. This is software which no longer has any existing rights-holders, including an absence of an existing parent company, ESA protection, and inherited owner of the property. If ANYONE owns rights to it, it's not abandonware, and actual abandonware sites will conduct research, in some cases above and beyond simply "reasonable," to make sure they can't find anyone who can speak for it legally. The one I frequent even has a policy whereby contact from an previously unknown rights-holder means an instant removal of the download. The problem with abandonware is that there's currently no law regulating it, which means business sources want to be able to make it off limits for obvious business reasons. It's the difference between legalization and decriminalization. Abandonware has no legal protections one way or another.

Now, a lot of "abandonware" is what's more appropriately termed "oldwarez," where the game is old and not being sold anymore, or in some cases IS still being sold, but still has someone to legally speak for it despite its age. THAT is illegal, because it's still under protection. I personally do not deal in oldwarez and do not support them or anyone connected to them. This is where the term "abandonware" is either intentionally or unintentionally fuzzed, and where businesses like to put their focus to blanket real abandonware with it.

There actually HAS been legal action against sites with oldwarez claiming to be abandonware sites, for instance, Home of the Underdogs, which instituted policy changes to ensure the reputable sites stay within the law. So it's not that the sites haven't been bugged as much as they have and have fixed themselves. They're not doing anything wrong at this point and businesses, if they wanted to delve into the legal gray area, have infinitely better resources and could easily clean house if there were a solid case for it. Most abandonware sites struggle to scrape by on page ads and donations, and like HOTU, sometimes just can't stay afloat WITHOUT the threat of legal action piling on. On the other hand, delving into that legal gray area would set a precedent, which no one seems to have done yet. If there were a solid case against abandonware, places like Abandonia would be squashed like bugs, and businesses have shown this on oldwarez sites previously.


For an incredibly generalist and slightly business-skewed view, Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abandonware) has an article, in which you can see bits and pieces of the definition Abandonia uses and which I hold to. HOTU had a similar policy to Abandonia after its legal action to the point Abandonia considered them equivocal, but with the dissolution and multiple rebirths, I can't be sure on the policies any of them use anymore. The stance could technically be considered a combination of orphaned works and a lack of legislation or legal precedent concerning the matter, with a healthy dose of being willing to work with anyone who comes to challenge it so as to stay within the law.

Really, finding any sources on abandonware's legality outside of abandonware sites without a business bias is pretty much impossible because there aren't any laws regulating it as of yet. So you have abandonware sites' words against businesses' in that regard. There isn't a legal concept of abandonware as of yet, which is why there's a question of whether or not it's actually legal. That's why I stick to Abandonia, because they have a policy closest in line with current law, i.e. orphaned works.





TL;DR: Abandonware by the definition I use and am most familiar with is legal because it relies on orphaned works law as the closest legal precedent, but you have a lot of definitions bumping around and detractors like to latch onto the worst of them. This may all change with future legislation or legal precedent, but companies don't seem to be in a hurry to try to squash abandonware sites like bugs because of the legal gray area.

[Jagos]

You mean when games cost twice their original price, but everyone is about twice as poor as in the place the game was made. Crazy pricing, not sure if crazy copyright.

True:

Brazil wasn't always a haven for piracy. After all, up until the mid-'90s, the games market in Brazil was overwhelmingly legal; companies would officially launch and provide support for consoles, such as Tectoy (Sega) and Gradiente (Nintendo). The piracy epidemic only came about with the combination of exceptionally high taxes (EGM Brazil estimated in their March 2005 edition that at least 45 percent of the price of a PC game consisted of taxes), the low income of most Brazilians, the lack of an effective government anti-piracy program and, ironically, the very factor that helped make games more mass-market: the change of media from cartridges to CDs, making it much easier to copy games.

But it hurts just the same. If Brazil lowered its tax rate, I'm sure more people would work in the games industry on the legal side of the fence. As it stands, they're just biding time trying to make ends meet with the little money they have.

-edit- Also, these guys seem to understand. (http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/issues/issue_189/5768-Rob-from-the-Rich-Steal-from-the-Poor.2)

[synkr0nized]

@Bluez: Yeah, I read the Wikipedia entry, too. But that's not really a source, so I went on to the copyright law entries and some of their references. I get the relevant terms and definitions and how the communities create distinctions among them; I wanted to know if there were rulings I didn't know about or hadn't come across (eg: if Orphan Works law had been applied directly to "abandonware" or similar). I guess not**. Until then, it will remain, as you say, a gray area to most people / the sites involved should continue to distance themselves from "oldwarez" and avoiding copyright law issues.

Oh well. Back to the DRM piracy discussion.



** some of the comments and responses to the US Orphan Works bill, which you can read in that last link I had, are interesting, as they try to directly address this topic; doesn't seem to have made it into the bill

[Aerozord]

Piracy is wrong as it hurts developers, makes it harder for new games to be made, and is a real insult to their hard work. Producers, typically the ones that put in DRMs do have a right to do so

however, piracy cannot be stopped. Its actually like my arguement on airline security. You cannot prevent it without doing something so extreme no one will want to go through the hassel. DRM discurages those taht want it legitly. All you can do is trust that the consumer will want to support you

not saying that because of optimism, but because it really is the only option

[Loyal]

While there are plenty of people who are just too cheap to buy the software, the fact of the matter is that these days, there's a strong enough argument for pirating just to get past the DRM, which hurts the consumer and will never slow down the pirates for very long. Is it 'right'? No, but it's still a valid argument. When we get to the point that pirated software is absolutely superior to its legal counterpart, the motivation for staying legal grows thin.

At this point, the consumer can either
a) buy the software and deal with the DRM that does nothing but hurt the consumer who paid for it,
b) pirate the software, which has been cracked to do without the DRM, thus allowing you to play the game unhindered and for free,
c) Not buy the game, and not play the game.

While morally and legally your choices are limited to a) and c), as far as the company's assets are concerned there is no difference between b) and c).

Unlike stealing a loaf of bread from the grocery store, a game's data will always exist and can be copied an infinite number of times at no cost. Whether the consumer pirated the game or simply ignored it, the company gains nothing and loses nothing from that particular consumer. What's more, the company has no way to track the difference between the two.

Conclusion: Do away with DRM, or at least anything more complicated than a CD-Key. Pirates who steal to save money will be unaffected either way, but at least the legal consumers won't feel inclined to follow their example.

[Eltargrim]

My 0.02$:

I tried to pirate Superpower 2. It appeared to have a virus. So I bought Superpower 2.

It turns out AVG false-flagged the patched .exe that you need to get around the DRM and play the game you bought as a virus.

So, indirectly, DRM made me buy the game, but it later made me spend about 3 hours trying to actually play the fucking game.

Fuck DRM.

[DFM]

Came in to say what Loyal said and that I've purposefully misread every instance of "DRM" and that because of it this is my favorite thread.

[EVILNess]

I think the DLC code in the package thing is a step in the right direction. I also remember a time when you got actual swag in with your purchase. A cloth map or a piece of DLC might not seem like much, but I think its better than online locking your stuff.

Hell, a good alternative to ALWAYS having an internet connection would just be locking out the multiplayer without a valid CD-key.

Or password protecting a CD key. When you authenticate to the server you associate that CD key with YOUR account and you gotta have YOUR credentials to install the game, effectively locking out the CD from other users. Sure it would require an internet connection to install, but once again its better than having one be required all the time.

[Loyal]

I've purposefully misread every instance of "DRM" and that because of it this is my favorite thread. Happy to be of service.

I also remember a time when you got actual swag in with your purchase. A cloth map or a piece of DLC might not seem like much, but I think its better than online locking your stuff.Hell yeah. I love swag. I have this big ol' Age of Empires III poster hanging up over my bed. Trinkets, posters and so on would slightly help encourage less piracy due to the nature of not being piratable... or not without some specialized equipment or DIY know-how.

[Eltargrim]

I think the DLC code in the package thing is a step in the right direction. I also remember a time when you got actual swag in with your purchase. A cloth map or a piece of DLC might not seem like much, but I think its better than online locking your stuff.

So far all of the DA:O and ME2 DLC has been cracked. DLC codes in the package aren't really doing their job so far.

[EVILNess]

So far all of the DA:O and ME2 DLC has been cracked. DLC codes in the package aren't really doing their job so far.

I said its a step in the right direction. They need to find ways to not piss off the customer so they don't pirate out of spite and discourage piracy, because let's be real... many people are gonna pirate regardless of DRM.

They don't need to be adding to their problems with oppressive DRM, I personally was gonna get the special edition of CnC4 before I heard it was using the same DRM scheme as Assassin's Creed 2, now I'll probably just not get it at all, or maybe even pirate it if I can be bothered to poke around for a cracked copy. I'm not saying DRM is a deal breaker, because I have bought DRM enabled games. This is kinda extreme for me.

It's kinda analogous to Wal-Mart making everyone spread eagle and patting them down looking for the shoplifters.

So, I dislike DRM but yeah its not so bad when they are just asking you for a receipt instead of trying to cavity check you.

[Seil]

I also remember a time when you got actual swag in with your purchase. A cloth map or a piece of DLC might not seem like much, but I think its better than online locking your stuff.What, like a gold sword, crown, chalice and a Philosopher's Stone? You crazy man, you crazy. (http://www.gametrailers.com/video/angry-video-screwattack/61988)

[Mirai Gen]

Seil, that's...that's not even remotely the same thing. I...

Okay yeah sorry, brain's hurting.
Hell yeah. I love swag. I have this big ol' Age of Empires III poster hanging up over my bed. Trinkets, posters and so on would slightly help encourage less piracy due to the nature of not being piratable... or not without some specialized equipment or DIY know-how.

This is actually something I'm totally in favor of as well - Posters. Seriously, just print out a big ass poster (by which I mean like a 2 x 1.5) and consider me happy.

Shit, my roommate preordered God of War 3 and got a poster. I preordered Prototype and got a tiny, kinda lame Alex Mercer figure. This actually makes me kind of curious to pre-order, which is what it should do.

I say if developers start doing this more often and with games for PC like they used to, they might get a few more solid sales.

[Eltargrim]

I said its a step in the right direction. They need to find ways to not piss off the customer so they don't pirate out of spite and discourage piracy, because let's be real... many people are gonna pirate regardless of DRM.

The other problem I have with Day-1 DLC is that if it includes something major (ie Zaeed, Shale), then I feel as if I'm being punished for preferring to buy my games secondhand; I'm already putting out a fair bit of my entertainment budget on a game, I don't want to drop another $10 to get the whole thing when I'm buying secondhand specifically to avoid that.

Know what DLC I can live with? Whatever Valve is doing. Yeah, L4D2 is probably piratable, but I was totally willing to pay 50 for access to the public servers. Bit of a different game style, but if RPG makers don't want me to pirate out of spite, they should avoid a microtransactionary style. I hate that shit.

[bluestarultor]

The other problem I have with Day-1 DRM is that if it includes something major (ie Zaeed, Shale), then I feel as if I'm being punished for preferring to buy my games secondhand; I'm already putting out a fair bit of my entertainment budget on a game, I don't want to drop another $10 to get the whole thing when I'm buying secondhand specifically to avoid that.

I think you're confusing DRM with DLC.



@Loyal: That swag you and others have mentioned is what I was talking about with "feelies (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feelies)." And yes, they are awesome. ;)

[Jagos]

So you're a touchie, feely type? Ew...

[Seil]

Seil, that's...that's not even remotely the same thing. I...

Okay yeah sorry, brain's hurting.

Gee, thanks for not even taking the time to call me stupid.

[DFM]

The other problem I have with Day-1 DRM is that if it includes something major (ie Zaeed, Shale), then I feel as if I'm being punished for preferring to buy my games secondhand; I'm already putting out a fair bit of my entertainment budget on a game, I don't want to drop another $10 to get the whole thing when I'm buying secondhand specifically to avoid that.


That is the point, they want to eliminate second hand game sales because every used game sold is seen as a lost sale, just as every game pirated is seen as a lost sale.

[Azisien]

Steam and other platforms like it are light enough DRM that I am fine with it. I have mostly steady Internet on my gaming PC, so I could theoretically put up with those "100% onliners" too, but I draw the line there anyway. I also have games on my laptop which rarely has stable wi-fi, and as such, fuck that.

My stance is that, if I can't buy the game, but I can pirate it, I will. If servers have been shut down, I'll use other methods to gain that functionality back. These cases are a company having the open chance to enjoy my money, but due to their lack of effort/care/whatever, won't.

That being said, thanks to things like Steam, I'm bloated with games to play and I haven't pirated anything in almost 2 years. So kudos to that. Now fuckin' release Baldur's Gate!

[Mirai Gen]

Gee, thanks for not even taking the time to call me stupid.
"I miss the free stuff they'd put with games like cloth maps. Those were cool."
"Yeah, it's just like that one contest Mirai made a thread about, where they designed the game to be a competition for golden treasure that only one person would get."
"...what?"
Steam and other platforms like it are light enough DRM that I am fine with it.
I really like Steam. I have no problem with it. I just wish that games stopped creating their own Steam engines, then selling it on Steam.

[Azisien]

"I miss the free stuff they'd put with games like cloth maps. Those were cool."
"Yeah, it's just like that one contest Mirai made a thread about, where they designed the game to be a competition for golden treasure that only one person would get."
"...what?"

I really like Steam. I have no problem with it. I just wish that games stopped creating their own Steam engines, then selling it on Steam.


Also wish there was some way to avoid the digital games market from exploding to much beyond Steam and the few others (D2D, GG, etc). The idea is to have a platform to launch your games off of (and get the games pretty cheap, too), no point having a bajillion platforms out there.

I kind of got that impression when I watched a video on the "new" Battlenet, and it just sounded like Facebook Steam for Blizzard. Which is dumb.

[Jagos]

To be fair, Blizzard's battlenet has been around the block for a few years. Maybe they just wanted an upgrade. Though you're still right in that they're really taking this social gaming aspect a smidge too far.

[Seil]

"I miss the free stuff they'd put with games like cloth maps. Those were cool."
"Yeah, it's just like that one contest Mirai made a thread about, where they designed the game to be a competition for golden treasure that only one person would get."
"...what?"

And the t-shirts, the comic books, whatever. (I had also found the Swordquest vid a bit ago, being a noted AVGN fan. (http://forum.nuklearpower.com/showthread.php?t=26016) There's also the fact that Swordquest is an extreme example, and probably worked best to emphasize hype based around give-aways and merchandise associated with a game. Also, it seems to be some of the first to have t-shirts and whatever as a bonus with the purchase. It seems to work well with my point.

[Ecks]

Came in to say what Loyal said and that I've purposefully misread every instance of "DRM" and that because of it this is my favorite thread.

Wish I could say the same. Both leave a bad taste in my mouth *cough*VampiretheMasqueradeLP*cough*

[Azisien]

Well I didn't notice this until recently, but Steam entries actually describe what kind of DRM the game you're purchasing has. I like the Assassin's Creed 2 one:

3rd-party DRM: UBISOFT REQUIRES A PERMANENT HIGH SPEED INTERNET CONNECTION AND CREATION OF A UBISOFT ACCOUNT TO PLAY THIS VIDEO GAME AT ALL TIMES.

You go girl! P.S. nice typo!

[bluestarultor]

To be fair, Blizzard's battlenet has been around the block for a few years. Maybe they just wanted an upgrade. Though you're still right in that they're really taking this social gaming aspect a smidge too far.

To be honest, I don't think there was any way they could have fixed the steaming pile of gaping security holes that was the old Battlenet. If you literally have to live in fear of every leet-speaking idiot actually hacking your computer, there is something gravely wrong with the system.


Edit: ^^ It's not a typo depending on how Ubisoft is pronounced. If it's like I say it and "OO bee soft" they are incorrect. However, I've also heard it pronounced "YOO bee soft" and the consonantal "Y" sound would render it appropriate.

[Loyal]

If you literally have to live in fear of every leet-speaking idiot actually hacking your computer, there is something gravely wrong with the system.What the hell kind of Battle.net have you been playing on?

[bluestarultor]

What the hell kind of Battle.net have you been playing on?

Not me, but someone I know actually was online with a friend and some leet-speaker told them to give him some rare and wonderful item the friend had or he'd hack him and wipe his hard drive. They told him where to put it and kept playing, but the friend blipped out and was gone for quite a while. When he came back, it turned out the little bugger had actually started to follow through on his threat and the friend had to kill his power to stop the wipe and performed some recovery and cleanup.

[Azisien]

Edit: ^^ It's not a typo depending on how Ubisoft is pronounced. If it's like I say it and "OO bee soft" they are incorrect. However, I've also heard it pronounced "YOO bee soft" and the consonantal "Y" sound would render it appropriate.

Yeeeeah no, I've never heard it pronounced that way, in dozens of trailers, interviews, or reviews, many by Ubisoft officials themselves?

What the hell kind of Battle.net have you been playing on?

Actually, my Diablo II accounts have been hacked several times. It's the only account I've had on the Internet, EVER, to get hacked. So battlenet 0, rest of internet 1.

[bluestarultor]

Yeeeeah no, I've never heard it pronounced that way, in dozens of trailers, interviews, or reviews, many by Ubisoft officials themselves?

Yahtzee is one example of pronouncing it with a "Y" sound. I'm not saying it's correct, just that I've heard it.

[Seil]

Welcome to GameReactorTV - we're here in Paris to look at all the latest titles from Ubisoft.
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5aaMPXDXrK4)

[Azisien]

Yahtzee is one example of pronouncing it with a "Y" sound. I'm not saying it's correct, just that I've heard it.

Ah yes, Yahtzee, the practical pronounciation guru of gaming terminology!

[Loyal]

Not me, but someone I know actually was online with a friend and some leet-speaker told them to give him some rare and wonderful item the friend had or he'd hack him and wipe his hard drive. They told him where to put it and kept playing, but the friend blipped out and was gone for quite a while. When he came back, it turned out the little bugger had actually started to follow through on his threat and the friend had to kill his power to stop the wipe and performed some recovery and cleanup.That would be the one and only case I've ever heard of such an event, and I'd hesitate to correlate it to BNet itself.Actually, my Diablo II accounts have been hacked several times. It's the only account I've had on the Internet, EVER, to get hacked. So battlenet 0, rest of internet 1.Par for the course, but Blues mentioned having your computer itself hacked.

Some people have been mentioning in half-jest that the best way to get Blizzard to patch their old games is to come up with a new hack for it to force them to respond, and hope they include some content for the game itself.

[bluestarultor]

Ah yes, Yahtzee, the practical pronounciation guru of gaming terminology!

See Seil's post. He's not the only one.



That would be the one and only case I've ever heard of such an event, and I'd hesitate to correlate it to BNet itself.

Fair enough, but

Par for the course, but Blues mentioned having your computer itself hacked.

still doesn't lend itself to me calling it a very secure system.

[Azisien]

See Seil's post. He's not the only one.

Actually the way he pronounced it, I would still call it a typo?

[bluestarultor]

Actually the way he pronounced it, I would still call it a typo?

I heard the consonantal "Y" sound, but we're getting way off topic.


It has occurred to me that an interesting way to prevent piracy is to embed a CD key in an image using stenography corresponding to the CD key provided for the player. What initially looks like nothing more than promotional art could actually hold an encrypted copy of the CD key for verification after a registration process, so that if a key is faked or somehow doesn't match, or the picture is not included, the game will have some sort of impaired function. Or if not a picture, possibly the game icon file, since nobody would intentionally delete that.

[DFM]

Maybe I'm not reading this right but what?

[Aerozord]

personally I'd have each game, and I mean each unit, would have its own unique key that only works with it. If someone posts it on a torrent sight release a patch that disallows further use of that one, a patch required for more content or internet play. Plus you can track each one and find out what store even sold that copy

[Jagos]

Movies tried that. You'd be making less CDs and once the game is out, that's it. Better to get as many sales in that 30-90 day window as possible and leave the rest up to the market to decide.

Anyway, it doesn't really work because you can try one person but again, it doesn't solve the problem.

[DFM]

That would be... pretty impossible and also ineffective.

Edit: Beaten

[Mirai Gen]

And the t-shirts, the comic books, whatever.
Unaltered quote:
I also remember a time when you got actual swag in with your purchase.
What, like a gold sword, crown, chalice and a Philosopher's Stone? You crazy man, you crazy. (http://www.gametrailers.com/video/angry-video-screwattack/61988)


Anyway.
It has occurred to me that an interesting way to prevent piracy is to embed a CD key in an image using stenography corresponding to the CD key provided for the player. What initially looks like nothing more than promotional art could actually hold an encrypted copy of the CD key for verification after a registration process, so that if a key is faked or somehow doesn't match, or the picture is not included, the game will have some sort of impaired function. Or if not a picture, possibly the game icon file, since nobody would intentionally delete that.
Uh, what?

I don't think image files work that way. Even if they did I don't understand what would be DRM about it; a copied CD like that would have the same data on it, and it would check with itself and agree that yes, this is in fact the right key!

The only way to verify that is via internet connection.

Aaaaaaaaaaand here we are.

[Yumil]

I had a weird idea:

Let's go back to the era of requiring a play disk. Now, now, I'm not saying just forcing the player to just have any disk in the drive(emulated or whatever)... I'm talking about a tailor made disk.

What do I mean? Well, I don't mean the data will be any different from everyone elses disk and the code to for the multitude of checks would be the same, but I'm saying they should develop a manufacturing process to physically alter the disk, in essence put defects in it that should by all events and purposes corrupt key data.

Oh NOES, they can't play their disk with corrupted data. Or can they? Thats where their unique cd-key comes in. You see, their play disk has been altered with the cd-key in mind and the defects are all fixable with it as a code:)

Sure, one would have to develop a process for this and it'd be pretty costly, but it kind of implements the dongle approach, which can be very effective, by making the play disk the dongle and the cd-key the key. It'd be hard to duplicate or even emulate the play disk, and if one would put key gameplay data on the play disk, it would take time to create a workaround, which gives you more sells before it is finally pirated. All that, and it's offline:) No need to keep paying a server bill long after the games out of print:).

[Sifright]

Flawed approach if the defects can be read by a drive then they can be emulated. The approach has been tried before all it led to was either perfect copies of the image ( clone cd/dvd ) or the checks are cracked regardless.

[Mannix]

The problem with dongles or other physical protections is that it pretty much shuts out digital distribution which is the single largest growth sector in PC gaming. Doesn't Steam account for something like 25% of PC game sales already?

[Azisien]

The problem with dongles or other physical protections is that it pretty much shuts out digital distribution which is the single largest growth sector in PC gaming. Doesn't Steam account for something like 25% of PC game sales already?

I think it was more like 5-10% last I read, but the thing that is currently exploding is the growth of that sector. It's not huge right now, but it will be.

[bluestarultor]

Maybe I'm not reading this right but what?

Uh, what?

I don't think image files work that way. Even if they did I don't understand what would be DRM about it; a copied CD like that would have the same data on it, and it would check with itself and agree that yes, this is in fact the right key!

The only way to verify that is via internet connection.

Aaaaaaaaaaand here we are.

Okay, what I'm talking about is called "stenography," which is the science of hiding data in an image. By slightly altering the colors of the image, usually so little that it's impossible to tell the difference, it is possible to store encrypted data, such as messages or even other images. The idea I'm explaining involves a one-time online registration the first time an Internet connection is detected. The user registers the game or faces limitations imposed on the game until they do, which registers their printed CD key with a given computer, user account, etc. The server stores this information for future registration attempts and first-runs. If a person wants to pass on the game to someone else, they will have to de-register the key either on their own or by calling some sort of hotline. When the server has registered their info, it tells the program the key the user entered and the game executable uses stenography to modify the icon file to store it, storing a copy in itself, as well, along with the computer's MAC address. This creates a totally unique icon file that the game then can compare to its own data. If the two match, the game is good to go. If not, the game is not good to go. If the MAC address does not match that of the current computer on a start-up check, it's considered a first run and the key has to be re-entered. At that point, the key has to match that stored in the icon AND the rest of the account info has to be good. If one key keeps being accessed for registration, it can be automatically locked. We're thinking in terms of maybe three strikes here without a de-registration due to the MAC address. If it's being put on a third computer using the same key in the period of a week, lockdown. If it's not the owner's fault, they should be provided with some way of verifying their purchase, such as a digital receipt if it's an online buy or a proof of purchase on the box. If it keeps happening, no more new key

This approach relies on a few factors:
- pirates aren't going to take more than 50% off of sales unless they're only doing it for friends at a slow pace (oversimplifying, of course)
- pirates can't bullshit keys if the icon already holds one to compare, making them have to use a fresh install and guess, and the randomness of keys means that if it's valid, they're either not hurting a valid buyer or are hurting themselves by posting what they used
- the game will not work right without the icon holding the info
- the info is encrypted, anyway, so it's not exactly easy to change
- after the initial registration, it's totally offline for the buyer unless they change their motherboard or want to de-register and re-register to update their info
- at any point, the original buyer can verify their purchase and get a new key, so long as they don't keep giving it out to others

[Seil]

Unaltered quote:Seil, that's...that's not even remotely the same thing. I...

Okay yeah sorry, brain's hurting.You insulted me just because I worded something wrongly while trying to add to a conversation? I could give a long-winded speech about how the only reason to to play those games would be the swag you could get, or that Atari was one of the first to do a contest like that, in order to cover my original post - but looking back at that, I worded it wrongly, and drew attention to the prizes rather than the actual purchase bonuses.

I think it was more like 5-10% last I read, but the thing that is currently exploding is the growth of that sector. It's not huge right now, but it will be.Which is a shame, because Steam is infuriating.

You-Be Soft versus Oo-Bi-Soft

Yannis Mallat - Ubisoft CEO (http://www.ubi.com/ENCA/default.aspx)

Giant Bomb Forums (http://www.giantbomb.com/ubisoft-entertainment/65-82/how-do-you-pronounce-ubisoft/35-261756/)
Yahoo Answers (http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080417101633AAv3kR4)
IGN Boards (http://boards.ign.com/teh_vestibule/b5296/180871983/r180885431/)
PC Powerplay Forums (http://www.pcpowerplay.com.au/forums/showthread.php?p=2005990)

[Azisien]

[COLOR=pink]Which is a shame, because Steam is infuriating.

Well, Steam isn't the only platform out there, probably just the main one. But it's a shame you find it infuriating, I find its my favourite platform for gaming right now. I think almost half of my whole library is on Steam now.

Now that's not to say I couldn't come up with problems, or suggestions for improvement. Technically under the subscriber agreement Valve could just go "fuck you" and your games are gone. This would cause an obvious siege of Valve headquarters, but it's something to worry about as the industry shifts.

I also think gifting and "trading" should exist within Steam in some capacity. Well, gifting exists, but I find it shitty. However, gifting and trading to the extent I'd like to see would require Steam hiding the game CD keys from their purchasers, which is bound to piss people off I guess. Ah well.