Pre-emptive Sony News thread.

[bluestarultor]

Well, FF13 is out Tuesday, and my brother was kind enough to pre-order it for me today. No guide, but that just means it'll be more of a challenge and there might be something left not totally ruined for me from having followed it through production.

In other news, the PS3 motion controller's name has been leaked as the PlayStation Arc, which Sony has yet to confirm, but we all know how well they keep secrets and they have a domain registered for it, among other things. It's set to debut this fall, just to make sure it's in perfect working order to compete with Natal, released about the same time. The final design could be described as a man's electric razor with a light bulb on top, but I'll let you guys judge (http://images.google.com/images?client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&hl=en&source=hp&q=ps3+arc&btnG=Search+Images&gbv=1).

I really don't care what it looks like so long as it works as well as it did in the demo and doesn't cause my hand shocking pain from holding it.

Let the countdown begin!

[Jagos]

...

The jokes are going to be endless about the nipple top. Seriously, I hope they tone down the force feedback. That gets annoying after a while.

[Julford Hajime]

The final design could be described as a man's electric razor with a light bulb on top, but I'll let you guys judge (http://images.google.com/images?client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&hl=en&source=hp&q=ps3+arc&btnG=Search+Images&gbv=1).

Hey I think my ex had one of those. She didn't say Sony made it, though.

[Geminex]

Sony is a genius.

They alone are exploiting the enormous potential that lies in combining a motion controller and a vibrator.

[Bells]

My good it's wiipuns all over again....

[Kim]

A company is trying to cash in on a controller gimmick that another company already did, and when the first company did it, very rarely did it actually improve the gameplay of whatever game it was attached to. Call me a pessimist, but I don't give a fuck.

[Azisien]

Pre-emptive, pfft. I'm playing FF13 right now!

[Kim]

Pre-emptive, pfft. I'm playing FF13 right now!

I'd be jealous if that was a game other than FFXIII. Instead I am filled with dread.

[bluestarultor]

A company is trying to cash in on a controller gimmick that another company already did, and when the first company did it, very rarely did it actually improve the gameplay of whatever game it was attached to. Call me a pessimist, but I don't give a fuck.

The difference is that the Wii-mote took three years to do what it was always supposed to do.

This one has been shown to already work like a dream, and while it's not a light gun like the Wii setup, I see no reason it can't be used for point and click if someone wants it to be. The difference is that it already does more than that and can also theoretically include some body-tracking due to there being an actual camera, so it's really more like a happy medium between MotionPlus and Natal, which from my perspective is exciting, because it could easily mean the whole is more than the sum of the parts.

Basically, I see this as a system with a lot of potential and hope that it's used effectively.

[Mirai Gen]

Yeah the fact that the Wii was marketed to do things it didn't do until Nintendo sold you an attachment to fix it has a majority to do with why I'm at least curious.

Having said thus, fuck motion control.

[Kim]

The difference is that the Wii-mote took three years to do what it was always supposed to do.

There are several things wrong with what you're saying, but I'll choose to take issue with the part where you're assuming that one device will live up to its prerelease hype while at the same time criticizing another for not living up to its prerelease hype.

Good luck with that.

[DFM]

If this thing does not go in a ton of butts and vaginas I will lose all faith in this country.

[Bells]

I'd be jealous if that was a game other than FFXIII. Instead I am filled with dread.

How french of you!

[Arhra]

You cannot pre-empt news.

That is all.

[BitVyper]

I'd be jealous if that was a game other than FFXIII. Instead I am filled with dread.

I'd be jealous if FF games were any good.

[DFM]

I'd be jealous if FF games were any good.

If they were, you would be playing it, so you wouldn't be jealous would you?

FUCKING WOULD YOU??

[BitVyper]

If they were, you would be playing it, so you wouldn't be jealous would you?

FUCKING WOULD YOU??

What if I'm the kind of douchebag who would hate them for being popular anyway while secretly wishing I could play them?

Two can play at this game, asshole.

[DFM]

Then I wouldn't even be reading your posts because I would be too busy playing FFXIII and being entertained with excellent gameplay and a compelling story.

[BitVyper]

Then I wouldn't even be reading your posts because I would be too busy playing FFXIII and being entertained with excellent gameplay and a compelling story.

Yeah but the discussion of hypothetical realities where FF doesn't suck wouldn't have come up in the first place.

[Geminex]

How about opposite day? You sayin' we couldn't have conversations like that on opposite day, punk?

[BitVyper]

How about opposite day? You sayin' we couldn't have conversations like that on opposite day, punk?

It's always opposite day.

[DFM]

Yeah but the discussion of hypothetical realities where FF doesn't suck wouldn't have come up in the first place.

No it'd be a discussion of a hypothetical reality where FF sucks and god what a horrid place that would be to live I bet Bush won the presidency and there'd be atomic bombs and shit oh god.

[BitVyper]

No it'd be a discussion of a hypothetical reality where FF sucks and god what a horrid place that would be to live I bet Bush won the presidency and there'd be atomic bombs and shit oh god.

Does that mean we're the evil universe?

[DFM]

Ah, yes, the "evil" universe. We have dismissed these claims.

[Odjn]

Ah, yes, the "evil" universe. We have dismissed these claims.

We are in the shitty universe.

[The Artist Formerly Known as Hawk]

We are in a universe where games companies are spending ludicrous amounts of cash trying to make motion controllers that work. That should tell you just how shitty this universe is.


I agree with Noncon and Mirai, fuck motion control. Why does anyone want or care about this? We've had a perfectly fine controller system that's been around for several decades now. They're called "controllers". They allow us to accurately and easily control whatever is on the screen with the minimum of hassle. Why the fuck would I trade that in for a giant glowing dildo that I have to wave around in front of a camera??

And seeing as how about 80% of games these days are FPS' and action games, how in the hell does a dildo controller help to control that anyway? I can honestly see this thing being released, the world takes 1 look, bursts out laughing and then goes back to playing CoD with a normal, not fucked up controller.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Back in my day, we had to control games by moving pins on the circuit board and it worked perfectely fine. Fuck you kids and your buttons.

[BitVyper]

THE circuit board? Like, did you all share, or what?

Ah, yes, the "evil" universe. We have dismissed these claims.

I think that Turian may have revolutionized how we debate.

[bluestarultor]

There are several things wrong with what you're saying, but I'll choose to take issue with the part where you're assuming that one device will live up to its prerelease hype while at the same time criticizing another for not living up to its prerelease hype.

Good luck with that.

The difference is that the Arc has already been SHOWN to work wonderfully and to do exactly what they claim it will.

[Melfice]

The difference is that the Arc has already been SHOWN to work wonderfully and to do exactly what they claim it will.

I'll admit I've not really followed the development of the Playstation Vib Arc, but I'd assume that this was showcased using Sony games and showcased by Sony people?

Indeed.

[bluestarultor]

I'll admit I've not really followed the development of the Playstation Vib Arc, but I'd assume that this was showcased using Sony games and showcased by Sony people?

Indeed.

Well, yes. But it's still pretty impressive: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qiX-26VL4bM

[DFM]

I'm sure the Wii tech demos were nothing like that.

[Azisien]

Finally I can load up my PS3 and live my ultimate fantasy! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8oWAb5NVALw)

[Mirai Gen]

I agree with Noncon and Mirai, fuck motion control. Why does anyone want or care about this? We've had a perfectly fine controller system that's been around for several decades now. They're called "controllers". They allow us to accurately and easily control whatever is on the screen with the minimum of hassle. Why the fuck would I trade that in for a giant glowing dildo that I have to wave around in front of a camera??

See let me clarify my statement for a second - motion control might not be terrible if it could work right. But our current controllers went through like 40 years of development starting with the Atari or whatnot before getting to the type of good stuff like the 360 controller, or the PS2 one.

I'm not holding to the faith that the first versions of this experimental technology are going to be anything less than ass.

[Funka Genocide]

Back in my day, we had to control games by moving pins on the circuit board and it worked perfectely fine. Fuck you kids and your buttons.

According to your profile I'm older than you, and I know for a fact we had 4 buttons and D-pad.

[Kim]

Well, yes. But it's still pretty impressive: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qiX-26VL4bM

You are so gullible its stupid.

And seriously, what little I saw of them showing it off looked like shit.

[bluestarultor]

According to your profile I'm older than you, and I know for a fact we had 4 buttons and D-pad.

Yeah, being (roughly) a year younger, I'm sure it's pretty safe to say you were at least typing in your games. Man, we should make kids do that again. It'll teach them awesome words like "bouillon" again. If you can't spell correctly, you can't play the game. Literacy, ahoy! :p



Edit:
You are so gullible its stupid.

And seriously, what little I saw of them showing it off looked like shit.

No need to get snippy. And, uh, what the hell were you expecting? It's test software. It's a ten-minute video showing off its technical capabilities, not a sneak peek into the next blockbuster.

Admittedly, it would have helped if the guy using the control system didn't totally suck at games, but even as uncoordinated as he was, it did everything exactly as he did, so I really don't see what the problem is.

[Kim]

No need to get snippy. And, uh, what the hell were you expecting? It's test software. It's a ten-minute video showing off its technical capabilities, not a sneak peek into the next blockbuster.

Admittedly, it would have helped if the guy using the control system didn't totally suck at games, but even as uncoordinated as he was, it did everything exactly as he did, so I really don't see what the problem is.

The problem is that you're expecting everything to work exactly according to a tech demo put together and done by Sony people. Maybe if you had a link to some people whose paycheck didn't depend on making it look like the BEST THING EVAR, I'd maybe give you some credit. Instead, from my perspective, you're pretty much saying "The Wii didn't live up to its tech demos but the Arc will because shutupshutupshutup."

On top of all this, I honestly can't see any games that try to use this being anything beyond gimmicky and terrible. It's a ripoff of a control scheme that I'm not too fond of even on the system it was invented for. I'd bet dollars to dimes that the games that will use this will utterly fail to use it in an actually useful or interesting way. Most of the games that do use the Arc will be *gasp* shovelware crap because that's what the target demographic will buy. There may be a handful of games that are decent or even more than decent, but I expect anything that good will also have a normal control scheme that will be superior to the Arc in every goddamn way. In fact, I expect Sony's grab at the market for shovelware and motion controls will fall flat on its face because why would publishers choose the PS3 when they can opt for the Wii, which is much cheaper to develop for.

EDIT: I mean, I'll concede that I'm being a douche about it, but at this point I'm honestly baffled about how anyone can be excited for Arc or Natal.

[bluestarultor]

The problem is that you're expecting everything to work exactly according to a tech demo put together and done by Sony people. Maybe if you had a link to some people whose paycheck didn't depend on making it look like the BEST THING EVAR, I'd maybe give you some credit. Instead, from my perspective, you're pretty much saying "The Wii didn't live up to its tech demos but the Arc will because shutupshutupshutup."

On top of all this, I honestly can't see any games that try to use this being anything beyond gimmicky and terrible. It's a ripoff of a control scheme that I'm not too fond of even on the system it was invented for. I'd bet dollars to dimes that the games that will use this will utterly fail to use it in an actually useful or interesting way. Most of the games that do use the Arc will be *gasp* shovelware crap because that's what the target demographic will buy. There may be a handful of games that are decent or even more than decent, but I expect anything that good will also have a normal control scheme that will be superior to the Arc in every goddamn way. In fact, I expect Sony's grab at the market for shovelware and motion controls will fall flat on its face because why would publishers choose the PS3 when they can opt for the Wii, which is much cheaper to develop for.

NonCon, you remember when the Wii was released right along with MotionPlus? No? Good, we're still in the same reality, then.

Put simply, they're promising full 1:1 off the bat and have shown their system has it. Wii promised, or at least implied, the same thing and didn't. And really, you said yourself that the tech demo looked like crap. To be expected, sure, but the developers of the system made it for testing purposes, as in they put zero time and money into it. It was thrown together just to make sure the features all worked. The real software using the device is going to have a LOT more time and money put in, because they won't be busy developing the device. It's like blaming Chrono Team for Dragon Quest issues. Parallel jobs, here.

On shovelware, why should anyone, according to your own logic, produce it for the PS3 when the Wii is easier and cheaper to develop for? Wii still has a large market share, does it not? Have they all been evaporating? No? Well, then. Also, many GOOD games are going to see a retrofit, including Little Big Planet and RE5, to offer a new way to play.

On gimmick, sure, maybe. I'll give you that one. On the other hand, traditional controllers aren't going away, either. If you don't like the wand-waving, you can always go back to the old system. There are advantages and disadvantages to any control system, and motion controls are better suited to some games than others. It might finally open up console RTS, as shown in the demo. Maybe you'll be able to actually sword at stuff in Oblivion now and feel a satisfying rumble as you knock a guy's block off with Rockbreaker.



My point is that I still possess a little joy and wonder in the world (really!) and am willing to give this a chance. If it's good, GREAT! If it falls by the wayside, well, it still has the old control system, $30 down, not the end of the world. If you're into that sort of thing, plug it into a 2P game, world's cheapest vibrator, amirite? ;)

[Professor Smarmiarty]

According to your profile I'm older than you, and I know for a fact we had 4 buttons and D-pad.

Maybe if you were a pussy.

Also Sony cannot live up to their promises unless they have broken the laws of physics. In that demo he said control was 1:1 which is impossible. So there is no point saying Sony can live up to that because they can't.

[BitVyper]

YOU'RE impossible!

[bluestarultor]

Maybe if you were a pussy.

Also Sony cannot live up to their promises unless they have broken the laws of physics. In that demo he said control was 1:1 which is impossible. So there is no point saying Sony can live up to that because they can't.

Smarty, we both know that that's an empty argument. 1:1 is an asymptote that can be approached and never reached, but after a certain point, the lag is so minimal that a human can't tell the difference, which is where we're at right now. It's EFFECTIVELY 1:1, close enough where you can round without it making much difference.

Unless we see some actual lag when games hit shelves, the technicality isn't going to be an issue.

[Melfice]

Unless we see some actual lag when games hit shelves, the technicality isn't going to be an issue.

You're giving Sony a lot of credit.
I'd rather say "When we see some actual lag..." and then swallow my words when EVERY game to get this technology implemented doesn't lag, than be so sure about technology that's in it's children shoes.

[Bells]

Don't forget to separate Hardware from Software. If the Hardware Sony made has Lag, it's Sony's fault. If Software Sony made has Lag with the Hardware sony made, it's sony's fault.

But if it's from a 3rd party, how the hell can you blame Sony for it?

Also, you guys give technology waaaay too little credit. Everything on the Arc is already around since 2004

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3857855347623051125&q=video+revolution+demo&pl=true#

There is no reason (beyond Pessimistic Skepticism) to believe that Sony might Have not improved upon it's concept and execution.

I trully believe that the Arc just might be better than Natal for most games, and that Natal is a much more casual thing, and that BOTH surpass what Nintendo promised for the Wii and never really got there to do.

Sure, Motion controls are a craze that eventually will be scaled down... but it's not an awful thing. And proper execution only comes with proper Tools, and Sony just showed they have those tools... anyone has any Pre-launch tech demos that aren't over hyped commercials that shows the Wii doing anything beyond "Wiisports" level?

[bluestarultor]

You're giving Sony a lot of credit.
I'd rather say "When we see some actual lag..." and then swallow my words when EVERY game to get this technology implemented doesn't lag, than be so sure about technology that's in it's children shoes.

You're not really seeing the logic of the statement. What I'm saying is:

The technicality of the impossibility of true 1:1 motion will be an issue IF AND ONLY IF there is significant lag which cannot be easily rounded to 0 and the motions sensed do not, in fact, turn out to have sub-millimeter precision.

I'm not saying there's no chance whatsoever of significant lag, or even someone biffing on the controls somehow. Just that if there isn't, Smarty can't be a killjoy because nobody will know the difference or care. If and when the first instance occurs, we can all be collectively disappointed.


Edit: Also, see above.

[Kim]

NonCon, you remember when the Wii was released right along with MotionPlus? No? Good, we're still in the same reality, then.

Hey, remember when that was kind of my fucking point? No? Read again.

Put simply, they're promising full 1:1 off the bat and have shown their system has it.

No. They're promising full 1:1 and have shown their tech demo has it... maybe...

Wii promised, or at least implied, the same thing and didn't.

I welcome you all once again to the point I was making about how publishers lie to you, and so do tech demos. DUN DUN DUNNNNNNNN

And really, you said yourself that the tech demo looked like crap. To be expected, sure, but the developers of the system made it for testing purposes, as in they put zero time and money into it. It was thrown together just to make sure the features all worked. The real software using the device is going to have a LOT more time and money put in, because they won't be busy developing the device.

Okay, so let me get this straight... because I don't want to get anything wrong here... but if you're saying what I think you're saying... that's a pretty terrible argument there Blues.

You're claiming that what we were shown in the tech demo wasn't what we'll actually be getting. So, what they showed during the tech demo doesn't exist... not really. What we're getting is something different that promises what was shown in the tech demo. I remind you that this is a tech demo that, despite being built around "Hey guys look at this awesome glowing dildo and all it can do!", looked like shit. Your argument in support of the product is that the tech demo showed that it can do what they promise, yet you follow that with "Well complaining about the tech demo is dumb because that isn't the real product."?

So... in short... I can't bitch about the tech demo because that product doesn't exist, but it still proves that what they're selling will work?

On shovelware, why should anyone, according to your own logic, produce it for the PS3 when the Wii is easier and cheaper to develop for? Wii still has a large market share, does it not? Have they all been evaporating? No? Well, then. Also, many GOOD games are going to see a retrofit, including Little Big Planet and RE5, to offer a new way to play.

I have an anecdote for you all. One time I said that most of the software for a product would be shovelware, because purchasers of shovelware were the prime demographic. I take this moment to remind you that although the Wii has the shovelware market cornered pretty well, meaning that most shovelware software will be for the Wii, it is not the only console with shovelware. Anyways, I also made a point to mention that there would probably be good games that took advantage of the Arc. However, I followed that with the statement that the Arc controls would most likely be inferior to the standard controls. Why? Because this is something we observed on the Wii, and since the Arc is a very similar product, it's safe to say that that will probably carry over. My anecdote concludes with Blues ignoring all these points because he has JOY and WONDER and apparently that's enough to discredit reality.

[bluestarultor]

Hey, remember when that was kind of my fucking point? No? Read again.

No. They're promising full 1:1 and have shown their tech demo has it... maybe...

I welcome you all once again to the point I was making about how publishers lie to you, and so do tech demos. DUN DUN DUNNNNNNNN

Okay, so let me get this straight. You think that developers are going to do SO POORLY with this that they can fuck up both hardware and a software package they didn't make? Granted, maybe someone WILL dick around with the software that makes the system tick, but that kind of defeats the whole purpose of having it unless you know you have something to add and requires permission to add it. That would be like someone deciding they didn't like the way a conventional controller operated and messing with it. If you want to modify a control scheme there are MUCH easier ways of doing it.


Okay, so let me get this straight... because I don't want to get anything wrong here... but if you're saying what I think you're saying... that's a pretty terrible argument there Blues.

You're claiming that what we were shown in the tech demo wasn't what we'll actually be getting. So, what they showed during the tech demo doesn't exist... not really. What we're getting is something different that promises what was shown in the tech demo. I remind you that this is a tech demo that, despite being built around "Hey guys look at this awesome glowing dildo and all it can do!", looked like shit. Your argument in support of the product is that the tech demo showed that it can do what they promise, yet you follow that with "Well complaining about the tech demo is dumb because that isn't the real product."?

So... in short... I can't bitch about the tech demo because that product doesn't exist, but it still proves that what they're selling will work?

Maybe I need to clarify. What I'm saying is that the tech demo was there for the sole purpose of showing off the hardware and software behind it. It was there solely to express the basics. What they did could best be compared to making a piano and hitting every key to show that it works. It's not the music that's going to be eventually played on the piano. Same thing here. They showed off the basics of the control system and it's up to someone else to write some real content for it. You have a piano and working keys, but someone else is going to write the songs.


I have an anecdote for you all. One time I said that most of the software for a product would be shovelware, because purchasers of shovelware were the prime demographic. I take this moment to remind you that although the Wii has the shovelware market cornered pretty well, meaning that most shovelware software will be for the Wii, it is not the only console with shovelware. Anyways, I also made a point to mention that there would probably be good games that took advantage of the Arc. However, I followed that with the statement that the Arc controls would most likely be inferior to the standard controls. Why? Because this is something we observed on the Wii, and since the Arc is a very similar product, it's safe to say that that will probably carry over. My anecdote concludes with Blues ignoring all these points because he has JOY and WONDER and apparently that's enough to discredit reality.

Nonsie, buddy, if you think any system will ever be safe from shovelware, you are far more optimistic than I. I'll admit to having missed you saying there will be good games for the arc, probably because I read it as being very backhanded in a fast transition. The fact of the matter is that it doesn't even make financial sense to continuously write shovelware for anything but the Wii because nobody who owns anything else is going to BUY it. The Wii has marketed itself as a casual system, where the 360 and PS3 have catered MUCH more heavily to a hardcore audience who simply won't put up with that shit. Any attempts to flood either system with shovelware are likely to result in dismal failure because the people who are willing to pay the price tags of the systems are the people who know what's going on in the market.

Basically, shovelware is unlikely because of:
- prohibitive costs
- which are unlikely to be recouped
- because of a hardcore ownership

The developers working with the Arc are in essence going to have to be DAMN sure they make their money back, and the games they write are probably going to rely pretty heavily on the Arc's capabilities. But you know what else? They're still going to have to be playable with normal controls. Sony seems set on making the Arc an equal partner to the normal controller. And they have some pretty hefty guidelines to determine what does and doesn't get published. Companies are going to have to put EXTRA time and money into making the Arc work with their games, meaning the stakes for writing a game around it are that much higher.

With the Wii, the gimmick controls were the default. With the PS3, they're not. The Arc is in every way a risk to a developer, because if they don't utilize it well, it's a LOT of time and money down the drain. The fact of the matter is that there's absolutely nothing stopping people from not developing around it, so the people who do are more likely to either do a damn good job with it or pay the price if they don't.



I really do take offense at your indication I don't know reality. As a person who would like to enter the industry, I have to think about this kind of shit. Maybe I just have a better understanding of it or maybe it IS a matter of joy and wonder, but you can't deny I have a valid argument.

[Kim]

I really do take offense at your indication I don't know reality. As a person who would like to enter the industry, I have to think about this kind of shit. Maybe I just have a better understanding of it or maybe it IS a matter of joy and wonder, but you can't deny I have a valid argument.

Actually I can deny it. Lookitme denying that Blues has a valid argument, wheeeee! I am especially comfortable doing this as I seem to make a point and you seem to be looking the opposite direction telling me that something other that what I said was wrong. I can't even bother to argue with any of the points you're making because they're so very detached from what I'm saying I really don't know how to respond.

I'm being overly dickish, but every time I think I should apologize, I read that bit about JOY and WONDARRRRRRRGHFUCKMYBRAIN

It just triggers that little part of my brain that makes me want to punch all the people.

[DFM]

Natal will slice out a huge chunk of the market with their terrible and entirely scripted pedophile simulation.

Edit:

The fact of the matter is that there's absolutely nothing stopping people from not developing around it, so the people who do are more likely to either do a damn good job with it or pay the price if they don't.



Like sixaxis

[bluestarultor]

Actually I can deny it. Lookitme denying that Blues has a valid argument, wheeeee! I am especially comfortable doing this as I seem to make a point and you seem to be looking the opposite direction telling me that something other that what I said was wrong. I can't even bother to argue with any of the points you're making because they're so very detached from what I'm saying I really don't know how to respond.

I'm being overly dickish, but every time I think I should apologize, I read that bit about JOY and WONDARRRRRRRGHFUCKMYBRAIN

It just triggers that little part of my brain that makes me want to punch all the people.

I can't help but wonder if this all stems from us speaking from entirely different perspectives. See, I'm a graduated programmer at this point and could get a job if I weren't still working on my BS. I'm thinking in technical and business terms, which doesn't seem to be meshing well with your arguments when I try to explain them.

I'm guessing you're coming from a player's perspective, and a rather rightfully jaded one.

Because I have at least an idea behind the processes that go into this kind of thing, I'm trying to explain why the system is going to be functional and why it doesn't make sense to throw money away on not using it well. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you're probably expressing your simple dislike for the setup of the system and predicting that people aren't going to know what to do with it at first and generally that you're not going to like it.

Mr. Apple, meet Mr. Orange.

My concern isn't that it's going to suck, and at no point did I ever comment on that. My concern is that it's a solid system technically and I'm excited to see what they do with it after they figure it out and all the shovelware companies crawl back to the Wii.

If any of my guesses to your arguments are true, you're essentially wasting your time, because, yeah, the first games out for ANY system are shit. Fact of life. I'm looking at the potential this control system provides and am not concerned with the content at this point. That will sort itself out in due time, and I actually am excited about the prospect of a new, working control system for my system of choice. If you're not, well, I'm not going to waste my time trying to change your mind about it.



EDIT: @DFM: SixAxis wasn't necessary to gameplay and thus was often treated poorly when it was used. On the other hand, the games that used it well (Flower and Folklore) used it well the same way anything is used well in games: it was made a core part of gameplay.

Speaking from the perspective that the Arc's system is MEANT to be a core part of gameplay, it'll probably fare better after the initial surge settles a bit.

[DFM]

I really have no idea what you're expecting them to pull off beside PlaySports.

EDIT: @DFM: SixAxis wasn't necessary to gameplay and thus was often treated poorly when it was used. On the other hand, the games that used it well (Flower and Folklore) used it well the same way anything is used well in games: it was made a core part of gameplay.

More likely we'll get a few gimmick/shovelware games that use it as a primary controller, a few AAA games that use it as a "Hey if you've got this thing we've got controls for it" half-assed scheme, and then everyone will forget it ever existed.

[bluestarultor]

I really have no idea what you're expecting them to pull off beside PlaySports.

Well, the tech demo itself had an RTS, and RTS is just one of those things that works best with point and click controls. Not that I'm into RTS, but it's still an interesting prospect.

Aside from that, FPS could easily see benefit from it, allowing much easier manual aiming, where console FPS in general relies on auto-targeting to compensate at this point.

You could also incorporate it into 3rd-person puzzle-solving in any number of genres.

Basically, there are definite places it could be used, and a couple off the top of my head where it would be of definite benefit.

[DFM]

All those things (Besides maybe the RTS, I'm not aware of an RTS) have already been done on the Wii and I don't think it rocked anyone's boxers or revolutionized motion controlling. Metro Prime maybe rocked boxers, but I don't think many other games have incorporated that control scheme.

[bluestarultor]

All those things (Besides maybe the RTS, I'm not aware of an RTS) have already been done on the Wii and I don't think it rocked anyone's boxers or revolutionized motion controlling. Metro Prime maybe rocked boxers, but I don't think many other games have incorporated that control scheme.

To be honest, I'm not expecting motion controls to become the standard until we get VR gloves that work on the market, but I tend to keep in mind that everything's been done before and I frankly don't care as long as it's done well.

And with that, I'm going to attempt to step out of the Arc conversation, which I really didn't expect to dominate the thread. I may not be successful, but at the moment, I'm out of things to say about it.

[Bells]

There is ONE thing i don't know about ARC that would be a major deal for me.

I hear it during the E3 demonstration it has a Analog Button.

Does the controller has an Analog Stick ALSO, or just a few pressure sensitive buttons?

Because, if it has an Analog Stick (or even a Dpad in it) it could easily be used in TONS of Games. Not just RTS's, but also RPG's and FPS's.

[bluestarultor]

There is ONE thing i don't know about ARC that would be a major deal for me.

I hear it during the E3 demonstration it has a Analog Button.

Does the controller has an Analog Stick ALSO, or just a few pressure sensitive buttons?

Because, if it has an Analog Stick (or even a Dpad in it) it could easily be used in TONS of Games. Not just RTS's, but also RPG's and FPS's.

I think what they mean is that the buttons are pressure-sensitive. The more you pull the trigger, for instance, the more it registers.

Unless that central thumb button is one, but I can't seem to find info one way or another.

[Mirai Gen]

Uncharted: Hey look at the sixaxis!

Uncharted 2: Yeah, that was pretty stupid. We took the sixaxis out.

[McTahr]

You know, Nonny, anytime I read game threads it seems like you and Blues are getting into it.

SSDD, I get it. Except he's at least trying to be reasonable, regardless of your opinion of the validity of his arguments.

Hey, remember when that was kind of my fucking point? No? Read again.


I'm being overly dickish, but every time I think I should apologize, I read that bit about JOY and WONDARRRRRRRGHFUCKMYBRAIN


EDIT: I mean, I'll concede that I'm being a douche about it, but at this point I'm honestly baffled about how anyone can be excited for Arc or Natal.


You clearly recognize that you might not be on the right of well, you know, not being a dick, and it's not like this is anything new, so maybe you should consider a break from the forums.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Oh man pressure sensitive buttons. That's so 80s. And will break within a week.

[bluestarultor]

Oh man pressure sensitive buttons. That's so 80s. And will break within a week.

Well, watching the tech demo again, it seems like the trigger for sure will be analog, which is already true for the standard controller. Solid info on exact specifics is hard to come by at the moment.

[akaSM]

Oh man pressure sensitive buttons. That's so 80s. And will break within a week.

My first GCN controller L & R buttons work fine, even after years of SSBM. If Sony makes their buttons as sturdy as the GCN's controller, it should be fine.

[Bells]

Well... nobody beats Nintendo at that. Their products are near "Military Use" quality when it comes to Resistance

[Jagos]

Owned by Microsoft (http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/98939-Microsoft-Trademark-May-Foil-Sonys-Arc)

Yep, time for a change.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

My first GCN controller L & R buttons work fine, even after years of SSBM. If Sony makes their buttons as sturdy as the GCN's controller, it should be fine.

Yeah well my NES still works after having played street cricket with it. Nintendo standard is a bit different to Sony standard.

[phil_]

Metro Prime maybe rocked boxers, but I don't think many other games have incorporated that control scheme.Dude, every shooter on the Wii since Metroid Prime 3 has aped that control scheme, or at least the "Move with the stick, aim and turn with the pointer" bit.

I'll see myself out.

[Kyanbu The Legend]

My first GCN controller L & R buttons work fine, even after years of SSBM. If Sony makes their buttons as sturdy as the GCN's controller, it should be fine.

My PS2 controller has held up pretty well over the years. That can be considered a good sign.

(My PS2 is a Version 3.0)

[bluestarultor]

My PS2 controller has held up pretty well over the years. That can be considered a good sign.

(My PS2 is a Version 3.0)

I still have a gray controller that works like it always did. Only issue is a bit of the rubber on the left analog is torn off.

[Julford Hajime]

Since we're talking about ancient controllers that work, I currently have a gray non-dualshock Playstation 1 controller that I got with my Playstation back in '97 ('98? One of those years >.>).

In the amount of time that I've had my original PSX and controller, I've owned three different PS2s and well over a dozen PS2 controllers. None of those work anymore.

It's part of the reason I didn't get a PS3, but that's neither here nor there.

[Kyanbu The Legend]

I still have a gray controller that works like it always did. Only issue is a bit of the rubber on the left analog is torn off.

Same here except it's completely off now.

That seems to be a common problem.

[bluestarultor]

Since we're talking about ancient controllers that work, I currently have a gray non-dualshock Playstation 1 controller that I got with my Playstation back in '97 ('98? One of those years >.>).

In the amount of time that I've had my original PSX and controller, I've owned three different PS2s and well over a dozen PS2 controllers. None of those work anymore.

It's part of the reason I didn't get a PS3, but that's neither here nor there.

All I can imagine is you dropping them all off cliffs, because I've only ever owned one PS2 and one standard PS2 controller, and mine is one of the first slimline models. In the period I've owned it, I've only had one controller actually die on me and it was third-party (it lost a pin).

And no offense, but I used to keep mine on carpet, so, uh, damn, man. :sweatdrop

[EVILNess]

The PSX analog and the PS2 controllers are some of the sturdiest controllers I've ever owned, with a degree of complexity that is. The N64 controllers wore out so fast due to the analog stick, but the Nintendo GCN controllers were definitely a cut above.

Always go first party for controllers.

[Julford Hajime]

All I can imagine is you dropping them all off cliffs, because I've only ever owned one PS2 and one standard PS2 controller, and mine is one of the first slimline models. In the period I've owned it, I've only had one controller actually die on me and it was third-party (it lost a pin).

And no offense, but I used to keep mine on carpet, so, uh, damn, man. :sweatdrop

No see, it's very simple: Technology hates me. Every system I've ever owned has suffered some sort of massive failure, save that PSX. The PS2 especially seems destined to fail in my hands, though the slim I currently have (My fourth PS2 total) works fine for now. Except that now DVDs are starting to get massively hot and start skipping after five-ten minutes, so I bought a DVD player to remedy that situation >.>

[bluestarultor]

No see, it's very simple: Technology hates me. Every system I've ever owned has suffered some sort of massive failure, save that PSX. The PS2 especially seems destined to fail in my hands, though the slim I currently have (My fourth PS2 total) works fine for now. Except that now DVDs are starting to get massively hot and start skipping after five-ten minutes, so I bought a DVD player to remedy that situation >.>

http://i381.photobucket.com/albums/oo255/jubilee1212/marvel-encyclopedia-jubilee-1-100k.jpg

[Kyanbu The Legend]

http://i381.photobucket.com/albums/oo255/jubilee1212/marvel-encyclopedia-jubilee-1-100k.jpg
That's Jubeli (sp) right?

What is wrong with her face? Jeez Marvel why does her face look like a fish?

[DFM]

Dude, every shooter on the Wii since Metroid Prime 3 has aped that control scheme, or at least the "Move with the stick, aim and turn with the pointer" bit.

I'll see myself out.

I don't actually play the Wii, it is for children.

[Kyanbu The Legend]

I don't actually play the Wii, it is for children.

Ouch, that one is going to leave a mark. :(

[Jagos]

That's Jubeli (sp) right?

What is wrong with her face? Jeez Marvel why does her face look like a fish?

Ice Man sucker punched her and she must have liked every second of it. Other than that, I wish I hadn't seen that. Now I'm going to have nightmares...

[Regulus Tera]

Did I just miss a conference unveiling PS Move, PSWii Sports, PSWii Boxing, and PSWii Party?

Guys this news thread is the suck.

[Bells]

God damn it, that sounded like an awesome presentation! But i wanted more videos of it... =/

One very positive thing: Camera + PS Move = Under $100

One very (probably) bad thing: Many games seem to use 2 Glowsticks...

One disappointment: The could've added the analog stick on the Move itself, i don't see the point of the "nonchuck"

SOCOM 4 already has support for it, and it seems smooth... and pretty much every single major 3rd party is on board with it.

[bluestarultor]

I thought everyone was joking about the thing (Move? Damn, that one probably came from a bunch of frenzied guys in a meeting room) having its own nunchuck, but no, the thing seriously has its own nunchuck, only it lacks a connecting cord. On one hand, that explains how they're going to keep compatibility, but on the other, what the fuck, Sony? Seriously, I never thought I'd have to say that, but not only were people already ragging on the Move for being too much like the Wii-mote, you had to go and give it its own vestigial tail? The only saving grace of it is that nothing mentions it being part of the movement control scheme and it has proper L1 and L2 (and assumedly L3) buttons, but unless the thumb button and trigger on the Move act as R1 and R2 (no R3), there might be issues. Heck, with the inane controls devs have these days, not having R3 might cause issues, never mind missing the right analog for camera.

Still would like to check it out, but my interest's taken a small hit. I'll have to see what games have better control schemes and go from there.

[Melfice]

This sounds interesting. One-on-one controls, eh? (http://kotaku.com/5491150/motion-fighter-putting-science-back-into-the-sweet-science)

Maybe Crecente just really, really sucked at the game, but...

EDIT: Fair enough, it's still in development, but it should say something at least.

[Kyanbu The Legend]

With a little tweaking this could be very a interesting development.

[bluestarultor]

This sounds interesting. One-on-one controls, eh? (http://kotaku.com/5491150/motion-fighter-putting-science-back-into-the-sweet-science)

Maybe Crecente just really, really sucked at the game, but...

EDIT: Fair enough, it's still in development, but it should say something at least.

It says we'll just need to wait and see. Granted, it's a bit of a disappointment, but then Crecente also said he just didn't like how the controls expected him to actually know how to box and it was trying to follow his exact movements. And he also said "very early" in development, which makes me wonder why he even was commenting on it.

Then again, Kotaku is almost to gaming news what Fox is to traditional news in my opinion, so I'm going to say it probably was because of a lack of thought on their part to already be trashing a game that's barely done enough to be played.


Edit: Just to be clear, this is not me defending the control scheme so much as me just calling out Kotaku as idiots. If there really is lag on it when it hits market, I will be just as disappointed as anyone else. I'm already a bit disappointed in the sub-controller.

[Mirai Gen]

Then again, Kotaku is almost to gaming news what Fox is to traditional news in my opinion, so I'm going to say it probably was because of a lack of thought on their part to already be trashing a game that's barely done enough to be played.

While it was pretty fucking hilarious to see it not work on stage - instantly followed by a Wii game cross-platforming with the Playstation Move - I would like to emphasize this point.

Kotaku is a flaming shithole of a supermarket tabloid that relies on HOT STRIPPERS IN RUSSIA IN COUNTERSTRIKE TOURNAMENT headlines and Tim Rogers to keep it afloat.

[bluestarultor]

While it was pretty fucking hilarious to see it not work on stage - instantly followed by a Wii game cross-platforming with the Playstation Move - I would like to emphasize this point.

Kotaku is a flaming shithole of a supermarket tabloid that relies on HOT STRIPPERS IN RUSSIA IN COUNTERSTRIKE TOURNAMENT headlines and Tim Rogers to keep it afloat.

Yeah, just watched the GDC coverage, and the boxing game did look like it needed work with lag and just plain old sensitivity. Everything else looked pretty good, though.

[Bells]

It's only fair to make clear that all those Move games at GDC were classified as "Alpha" by Sony, since even most of them don't even have proper names yet... so i wouldn't put any of them past beyond Glorified tech demos that look pretty.

Actually, i wouldn't rag on the Wii over it's ability to make Golf and Tenis games based just on Wii Sports... so, for me, i would rather wait for a couple of 3rd party titles to come out for it.

[Kim]

Things I've noticed about the Move...

It's not ripping off the Wii, but two hours after the name was announced, a port from the Wii was announced. Smooth.

Lag has been reported in games like The Shoot. Supposedly Socom 4 had lag, too, but that there was less of it.

They said the package would cost less than a hundred dollars. To me, that reads as "the package will cost close to a hundred dollars."

The Move Nunchuck doesn't have a motion sensor, so to play games that require motion detection for both hands, you have to have a Move controller for each. So... $100 plus the cost of another controller to be able to play all the single player games. You want to play two in all the games, including boxing? Two more Move controllers and another Move Nunchuck. Congratulations, you just spent about as much on the motion control gear as you would on a new Wii.

Several of the games already announced look incredibly shovelwary, like that Wii port I mentioned before.

Basically, shovelware is unlikely because of:
- prohibitive costs
- which are unlikely to be recouped
- because of a hardcore ownership

Blues... you... you lied to me.

Supposedly this has problems working in bright light as well, according to a Sony representative. Good to know that my Move controller will be having basic problems I've never had with the Wii.


This has convinced me and turned my opinion right around. Obviously I was wrong to be pessimistic about the Move. Now I have hope and wonder.

[bluestarultor]

Things I've noticed about the Move...

It's not ripping off the Wii, but two hours after the name was announced, a port from the Wii was announced. Smooth.

Lag has been reported in games like The Shoot. Supposedly Socom 4 had lag, too, but that there was less of it.

They said the package would cost less than a hundred dollars. To me, that reads as "the package will cost close to a hundred dollars."

The Move Nunchuck doesn't have a motion sensor, so to play games that require motion detection for both hands, you have to have a Move controller for each. So... $100 plus the cost of another controller to be able to play all the single player games. You want to play two in all the games, including boxing? Two more Move controllers and another Move Nunchuck. Congratulations, you just spent about as much on the motion control gear as you would on a new Wii.

Several of the games already announced look incredibly shovelwary, like that Wii port I mentioned before.



Blues... you... you lied to me.

Supposedly this has problems working in bright light as well, according to a Sony representative. Good to know that my Move controller will be having basic problems I've never had with the Wii.


This has convinced me and turned my opinion right around. Obviously I was wrong to be pessimistic about the Move. Now I have hope and wonder.

I'd just like to say you've focused all to much on that statement, but on to the meat of what I have to say:

First off, yes, much of that looks like shovelware. On the other hand, when is Microsoft going to announce the starting lineup for Natal? I'm betting that's going to have the same issue, because it's the first year, and big-title games take five. I'm not expecting either to have a running start out of the gate. We'll see better games as time goes on. Natal is probably just going to ride more on the home entertainment approach during that period. The launch titles for both are going to suck because launch titles always suck.

Second, yes, Sony needs to fire their PR department, but so does everyone else these days.

Third, it is, indeed, disappointing the Move has trouble in bright light. I can only guess it's because it has trouble tracking the color on the ball at that point. It really makes me wonder just how bright the light has to be, I mean, at least sunlight-level, I'm sure, and while it's ultimately an avoidable issue, it still makes me wonder why it can't compensate. Maybe a firmware update will eventually fix it.

Lastly, the Move seems less party-based than the Wii so far. The Eye can only track four of them at once, so at most, you'll only have four people in on it, and with the dual-Move games, you'll likely see more one-player than two-player titles. The $100 is for a Move, sub-controller, and game package, and with games being roughly $50, that tells me that the Move will probably be about $30, which is on par for a normal controller.




Not that you don't have a lot of good points, but in all honesty, it could be worse.

[Kim]

On the other hand, when is Microsoft going to announce the starting lineup for Natal?

I am even more hateful of Natal than I am of move.

As for your "The Move will be less party based" comment, I'm pretty sure Move Party or whatever it's called blows that statement out of the water.

[bluestarultor]

I am even more hateful of Natal than I am of move.

I see. Personally, I just prefer having a controller left, but otherwise, whatever works, I guess.

As for your "The Move will be less party based" comment, I'm pretty sure Move Party or whatever it's called blows that statement out of the water.

Quite possibly.

[Kyanbu The Legend]

I am even more hateful of Natal than I am of move.

As for your "The Move will be less party based" comment, I'm pretty sure Move Party or whatever it's called blows that statement out of the water.

As with anything it'll get better as time passes.

[Kim]

As with anything it'll get better as time passes.

The Wii didn't. *ba-dum-psh*

[Kyanbu The Legend]

The Wii didn't. *ba-dum-psh*

The Wii's an exception. Even Miyamoto had doubts about it doing well.

[bluestarultor]

http://www.gamepro.com/article/features/214379/playstation-move-everything-we-know/

Apparently, I misspoke. The $100 bundle also includes the Eye. Also, any normal PS3 controller can stand in for the sub-controller.


Also interesting, it apparently only takes 2MB of system RAM. (http://www.tomsguide.com/us/PS3-Move-System-Memory-Requirements,news-6137.html) That says nothing about CPU load, but still is interesting. My guess is that it won't be too bad, unless they have it going almost directly to the CPU.


Knowing the sub-controller won't be necessary is a bit of a relief, at least.

[Krylo]

I am even more hateful of Natal than I am of move.

I'm kinda hoping they both crash and burn and companies just back off the motion control until they can do it right, at least. This wand shit is just ridiculous.

[Kyanbu The Legend]

I'm kinda hoping they both crash and burn and companies just back off the motion control until they can do it right, at least. This wand shit is just ridiculous.

Can't do it right unless we play with it now can we.

In fact them doing this is what will lead to it being done right.

[Krylo]

Can't do it right unless we play with it now can we.

Yes: Because technology, oddly enough, progresses--even in the realm of gyroscopes, light reading, and motion detection--regardless of video games.

They're trying to build things with tech that isn't there yet, and it's, amazingly enough, not turning out all that well.

[Kim]

I'd be totally cool with motion control if it was only an optional supplemental thing. Kinda like controlling arrows in that PS3 game I forgot the name of. Instead, they thing that motion control is THE FUTURE and thus should be treated as the ideal control scheme. Fuck that noise.

[Mirai Gen]

IIRC Natal is trying to do pretty much that.

Like they're designing Natal to entirely be the casual party gamer's tool, so you can just pick it up and buy some DLC games online, maybe one or two big-name titles that are discs from the store. Otherwise it's pretty much what you saw at E3 - a family getting together and making funny pictures with the motion capture.

[Krylo]

I'd be totally cool with motion control if it was only an optional supplemental thing. Kinda like controlling arrows in that PS3 game I forgot the name of. Instead, they thing that motion control is THE FUTURE and thus should be treated as the ideal control scheme. Fuck that noise.

Heavenly Sword.

And aiming it into their crotches and asses NEVER gets old.

And I'd be ok with it if they'd wait until they were much closer to 1:1 than they are now, and could read forward, backward, left/right, rotations, etc. and translate them all EXACTLY to the screen, as opposed to this half assed shit that makes winning in most games merely a measure over who can spaz harder.

I'd buy a fighting game with a pair of gloves, anklets, and maybe a vest, that could perfectly read my movement. That'd be pretty sweet, and also a good work out.

I'm not going to buy a fighting game where I just hold a pair of dildos and spaz my arms as hard as possible to win, though. That's retardiculous.

[Nique]

Instead, they thing that motion control is THE FUTURE and thus should be treated as the ideal control scheme

"You mean you have to use your hands?" "That's like a baby's toy!"

[Jagos]

I'd be totally cool with motion control if it was only an optional supplemental thing. Kinda like controlling arrows in that PS3 game I forgot the name of.

Heavenly Sword. The greatest movie since Metal Gear Solid One.

[Kyanbu The Legend]

Heavenly Sword.

And aiming it into their crotches and asses NEVER gets old.

And I'd be ok with it if they'd wait until they were much closer to 1:1 than they are now, and could read forward, backward, left/right, rotations, etc. and translate them all EXACTLY to the screen, as opposed to this half assed shit that makes winning in most games merely a measure over who can spaz harder.

I'd buy a fighting game with a pair of gloves, anklets, and maybe a vest, that could perfectly read my movement. That'd be pretty sweet, and also a good work out.

I'm not going to buy a fighting game where I just hold a pair of dildos and spaz my arms as hard as possible to win, though. That's retardiculous.

To achieve this 4 motion detect pillars in a sensor skeleton is required. Movies and game designers use this ALL the time. We have the tech and could use it for real.

If your willing to pay $1000 dollars for the pillars and gear not to mention the semi custom fit sensor skeleton.

What companies are trying to do is find a cheaper way to make this work and meet 1:1 without all of that gear.

Sadly right now that isn't possible, period. And won't be possible for another 50 years or so.

Most of us will be dead/too weak to play them.

[Krylo]

To achieve this 4 motion detect pillars in a sensor skeleton is required. Movies and game designers use this ALL the time. We have the tech and could use it for real.

If your willing to pay $1000 dollars for the pillars and gear not to mention the semi custom fit sensor skeleton.

What companies are trying to do is find a cheaper way to make this work and meet 1:1 without all of that gear.

Sadly right now that isn't possible, period. And won't be possible for another 50 years or so.

Most of us will be dead/too weak to play them.

Exactly.

Which is why they shouldn't do it for 50 years.

Also I plan on living to 80+. I will totally be alive for it.

[BitVyper]

Exactly.

Which is why they shouldn't do it for 50 years.

Also I plan on living to 80+. I will totally be alive for it.

Yeah, but you'll be too crotchety to try it. Damn kids with their hover boards, and their 1:1 motion controls...

[Nique]

I plan on living forever.

Whether it be rejuvenating my once aging body with a magical 'fountain-of-youth- like serum, or existing in a 'Matrix' style computer as conscious data, I will be playing video games into eternity.

[Sithdarth]

Yes: Because technology, oddly enough, progresses--even in the realm of gyroscopes, light reading, and motion detection--regardless of video games.

They're trying to build things with tech that isn't there yet, and it's, amazingly enough, not turning out all that well.

Yeah except for where this ignores several key factors:

1) Sensitivity range. We've got gyroscopes and accelerometers that can handle pretty much any section of the range of sensitivity you need to do 1:1 motion control. Problem is we don't have one that can do the whole range. Worse yet the ones on the sensitive side of things tend to be fragile as well as expensive. Worse yet that isn't really going to change because the people that need them are doing scientific research and will drop 10 grand on a single piece of lab equipment without blinking. Since they only need them for those minuscule movements there is also no need to make them any stronger and so nothing much has really changed. They get smaller and more sensitive but their range remains just as limited and they get more fragile simply because its easier to make them that way and no one needs anything different.

2) Integration. Ask anyone that has ever done any sort of engineering or prototyping. Sometimes you get lucky and parts that don't meet your specs exactly come together into an awesome product. Sometimes the best parts ever simply will not work together no matter what you do. There may be power flow issues, heat issues, cross talk, interference, space issues, etc. Doing a 1:1 motion controller isn't just about waiting for the parts to have the right specs. You have to work at putting it together right and figuring out how everything is going to work together. This can be done now with crappy components and not later. It gives relatively crappy products but it also gives invaluable experience that can be built on later. As much as you might dislike it a lot of figuring out what does and doesn't work is discovered in going commercial. You can focus group and test all you want but nothing puts it to the test like putting it in the hands of millions of idiots at the same time and watching what happens. That has to happen now or later and regardless of the technology in the future the first attempts are going to suck at least a little. I'd rather it happen now so when we do get the right technology they can skip the crap and give us something good.

3) Programing. There is a shit ton of it behind any controller and more so behind motion control. You can just sit a bunch of coders down and tell them to spit out the code and expect it to be great. Ok it happens sometimes maybe but most code builds and evolves from crappy code. We've got awesome physics engines for games partly because of better hardware and partly because people have been coding and building from the code of crappy physics engines for what like a decade now. Irrespective of the ability of the available technology if we started from scratch today and tried to code a physics engine it would comparatively suck. Again its a case of do it now so you can do it right later and get as much feed back as possible to figure out what works and what people really want.

4) Collisions. Probably the biggest problem and why we won't see true 1:1 in everything before we get into Matrix style gaming. Having your sword follow your sweep perfectly is awesome and all but the one small problem is that when it hits something in the game there is nothing stopping your movement. Further if it gets pushed back there is no way to force your hands back. There has to be some inherent give in the controls to account for this. Force feedback can only do so much and most of that would be way more bulky than you'd want to deal with for something like sword play.

There is of course the other part where most people play video games to do things they can't do in real life. So tying their success directly to actually being able to duck and jump or swing a sword is going to turn them off. Maybe it works for you but I'd definitely not call that the majority. Certainly having it be an option where viable would be totally awesome but most of the time people would want an assist. Basically we don't need to be moving forward toward 1:1 as much as we need to be moving away from the current seemingly random flailing of most fast paced games to something more like Wii Bowling, Wii Golf, or any of the more sedate sports. We need to work out what works and what doesn't to produce a control scheme that feels natural and 1:1 without actually forcing the players to be Olympic level fencers. In short we don't actually need a hardware change as much as we need greater experience and fine tuning in the software. There is probably a way to get what we have working in a passable enjoyable manner but that can only come through experience. To paraphrase Edison he didn't so much discover a way to make a light bulb as discover a hell of a lot of ways not to make one. Even after that someone still came up and bested him later with an even better one.

I guess the overall meaning here is putting off for tomorrow the technological research that could be done today is both stupid and potentially harmful later. To draw and interesting parallel it is sort of what happened with solar power. We knew it was possible and we had passable solar cells decades ago. We also knew that the inverters that converted the DC to AC where about as big a problem in terms of system cost as the panels themselves. Certainly we knew as panel technology improved inverter technology would start to become a handicap unless it improved. Yet no one really worked that hard on it. Everyone focused most of their energy on the panels and continue to do so even now. The end result is that we have panels that could easily do the job but the inverters required are starting to become the majority of the cost of the system because the problem was ignored and shoved aside in favor of waiting for better panels. Now that they're hear we've got almost the exact opposite of the original problem. Technological progress needs to happen on all the pieces of the puzzle at the same time or it tends to happen a lot slower than it otherwise could.

[Krylo]

1) Sensitivity range. We've got gyroscopes and accelerometers that can handle pretty much any section of the range of sensitivity you need to do 1:1 motion control. Problem is we don't have one that can do the whole range. Worse yet the ones on the sensitive side of things tend to be fragile as well as expensive. Worse yet that isn't really going to change because the people that need them are doing scientific research and will drop 10 grand on a single piece of lab equipment without blinking. Since they only need them for those minuscule movements there is also no need to make them any stronger and so nothing much has really changed. They get smaller and more sensitive but their range remains just as limited and they get more fragile simply because its easier to make them that way and no one needs anything different.Don't buy they won't change/get better.

That's like saying 9 mils should still cost a few thousand a pop because the only people who needed them back when they were military grade hardware was the military and they were willing to drop a few thousand.

They will get cheaper as the production is refined and becomes cheaper. The production will continue to be refined and become cheaper as long as anyone is buying it, because refining production and making it cheaper is what producers do.

Further, the movie industry requires very close to 1:1 motion capture, and they require it to be durable, and the smaller and easier it is to use the better.

May not be using gyroscopes, but gyroscopes aren't the only way to do it, obviously.

2) Integration. Ask anyone that has ever done any sort of engineering or prototyping. Sometimes you get lucky and parts that don't meet your specs exactly come together into an awesome product. Sometimes the best parts ever simply will not work together no matter what you do. There may be power flow issues, heat issues, cross talk, interference, space issues, etc. Doing a 1:1 motion controller isn't just about waiting for the parts to have the right specs. You have to work at putting it together right and figuring out how everything is going to work together. This can be done now with crappy components and not later. It gives relatively crappy products but it also gives invaluable experience that can be built on later. As much as you might dislike it a lot of figuring out what does and doesn't work is discovered in going commercial. You can focus group and test all you want but nothing puts it to the test like putting it in the hands of millions of idiots at the same time and watching what happens. That has to happen now or later and regardless of the technology in the future the first attempts are going to suck at least a little. I'd rather it happen now so when we do get the right technology they can skip the crap and give us something good.Already commercial in the movie and game industries (in MAKING games).


3) Programing. There is a shit ton of it behind any controller and more so behind motion control. You can just sit a bunch of coders down and tell them to spit out the code and expect it to be great. Ok it happens sometimes maybe but most code builds and evolves from crappy code. We've got awesome physics engines for games partly because of better hardware and partly because people have been coding and building from the code of crappy physics engines for what like a decade now. Irrespective of the ability of the available technology if we started from scratch today and tried to code a physics engine it would comparatively suck. Again its a case of do it now so you can do it right later and get as much feed back as possible to figure out what works and what people really want.Valid, but I'd rather play an NES game, crappy (relatively speaking) programming and all, with a solid controller/control scheme, than on a Wii with solid programming and a shitty controller/control scheme.

4) Collisions. Probably the biggest problem and why we won't see true 1:1 in everything before we get into Matrix style gaming. Having your sword follow your sweep perfectly is awesome and all but the one small problem is that when it hits something in the game there is nothing stopping your movement. Further if it gets pushed back there is no way to force your hands back. There has to be some inherent give in the controls to account for this. Force feedback can only do so much and most of that would be way more bulky than you'd want to deal with for something like sword play. Yeah, nothing that can be done for this.

Oh well.

We need to work out what works and what doesn't to produce a control scheme that feels natural and 1:1 without actually forcing the players to be Olympic level fencers.Just wanted to comment on this quick:

No one is expected to be at Viswanathan Anand's skill to play computer chess, yet it still exists.

1:1 fencing would, in no way, require someone to be an Olympic level fencer. You would simply program the AI to be at lower levels, and with current computing power you probably couldn't make the AI as good as an Olympic fencer anyway. There'd always be logic exploits and what not.


In short we don't actually need a hardware change as much as we need greater experience and fine tuning in the software.I think we need both.

I guess the overall meaning here is putting off for tomorrow the technological research that could be done today is both stupid and potentially harmful later. To draw and interesting parallel it is sort of what happened with solar power. We knew it was possible and we had passable solar cells decades ago. We also knew that the inverters that converted the DC to AC where about as big a problem in terms of system cost as the panels themselves. Certainly we knew as panel technology improved inverter technology would start to become a handicap unless it improved. Yet no one really worked that hard on it. Everyone focused most of their energy on the panels and continue to do so even now. The end result is that we have panels that could easily do the job but the inverters required are starting to become the majority of the cost of the system because the problem was ignored and shoved aside in favor of waiting for better panels. Now that they're hear we've got almost the exact opposite of the original problem. Technological progress needs to happen on all the pieces of the puzzle at the same time or it tends to happen a lot slower than it otherwise could.
Not really valid to the discussion.

No one is going to die because we put off making the Wii 2 until we have better/cheaper motion capture tech.

[Kyanbu The Legend]

But it's good that they are trying this because they are trying to make this tech work. They are pushing for it which means more time and effort will be put into mastering it. If they continue we may see 1:1 on a cheap control set up in less then 15 years.

So yeah good news for PS5 and Zii2.

[Mirai Gen]

Yeah, nothing that can be done for this.

Oh well.
Feedback/collision is pretty much the main reason I'm okay with the Wii being a casual market. Cause getting anything else out of it is trying to swim upstream.

[Sithdarth]

Don't buy they won't change/get better.

That's like saying 9 mils should still cost a few thousand a pop because the only people who needed them back when they were military grade hardware was the military and they were willing to drop a few thousand.

They will get cheaper as the production is refined and becomes cheaper. The production will continue to be refined and become cheaper as long as anyone is buying it, because refining production and making it cheaper is what producers do.

They might get cheaper over time but they aren't going to expand in capability unless someone actively pushes for that expanded capability. The engineering challenges of making something that is both sensitive and works over a very long range are completely different from making something that is just sensitive. Its like expecting advances in artillery to apply to hand guns generally it just isn't going to happen.

Further, the movie industry requires very close to 1:1 motion capture, and they require it to be durable, and the smaller and easier it is to use the better.

May not be using gyroscopes, but gyroscopes aren't the only way to do it, obviously.


Actually I think at least at this point the movie industry could care less about size or cost. They are probably more worried about accuracy over pretty much anything at all. That's not to say they wouldn't love something smaller if someone came up with it. I just don't see them actively concerned about smaller as much as more accurate at any cost. Also durability isn't really an issue when all the fragile parts of the system are completely external to the movement. And I would also point out that this is a back track from this statement:

Yes: Because technology, oddly enough, progresses--even in the realm of gyroscopes, light reading, and motion detection--regardless of video games.

Which is obviously an oversimplification of the engineering at work.

Already commercial in the movie and game industries (in MAKING games).


Not really because that isn't real time motion capture. That and it takes a hell of a lot more computing power than you can fit into a console to make it work. Sure it'll get better over time but their is no guarantee it will develop in a useful way for gaming. Its better not to close off an avenue of research until its clear it isn't going anywhere.

I would also point out that with the Motion Plus the Wii controller is pretty much 1:1 but only in slower motions. Like when I play Archery or when I'm guarding with the sword in the sword fighting game. The guard follows every movement I make with a few liberties taken to keep me from sticking the sword where it couldn't actually go. The strikes are significantly less 1:1 but that seems to be a matter of what the software and process can handle more than what the controller can do. If I had to guess the shear volume of information that would be produced with a sample rate that would allow faster 1:1 control would currently overwhelm the system. The problem seems to be less in the controller and more in the processor. Of course it could be that there simply isn't enough bandwidth in the channel between the controller and the console even though the processor could handle the crazy amount of data. The point is the Wii does 1:1 motion in the slower regions which means the hardware can do it there is just a problem somewhere else preventing it from doing 1:1 any faster. That problem is probably no inherent in the actual motion sensing controller.

Valid, but I'd rather play an NES game, crappy (relatively speaking) programming and all, with a solid controller/control scheme, than on a Wii with solid programming and a shitty controller/control scheme.


The point is that we have to go through the crappy to get to the good that is the only way this can work. Even if the technology was perfect the controllers would still suck if the programmers had to program motion control from scratch or nearly scratch.

Just wanted to comment on this quick:

No one is expected to be at Viswanathan Anand's skill to play computer chess, yet it still exists.

1:1 fencing would, in no way, require someone to be an Olympic level fencer. You would simply program the AI to be at lower levels, and with current computing power you probably couldn't make the AI as good as an Olympic fencer anyway. There'd always be logic exploits and what not.

The key difference here is that chess doesn't involve physical activity. While the computer might not be an Olympic level fencer if you want to play for any length of time you are going to have to have some pretty hefty endurance. That or you are going to have to get pretty darn efficient and skillful. Even then any sort of marathon session is going to need some decent endurance. Not necessarily a bad thing in a video game but you know there are people that would raise holy hell about it even if the had no intention of ever buying the fencing game.

I think we need both.

I didn't say we didn't need both. I said we needed one a bit more then we needed the other and ignoring either one for the other is stupid.

Not really valid to the discussion.

No one is going to die because we put off making the Wii 2 until we have better/cheaper motion capture tech.

Logical fallacy much. I never said anything about anyone dieing because inverter technology lagged. Obviously that hasn't stopped solar installations of various sizes. The only thing it has done is make them more expensive and generally less useful then they could be. This outcome is a pretty close parallel to what might happen if everyone just gave up on motion control for games until the technology caught up. Technology mind you that no one is really working on in the exact form that is needed for playing a game.

Yeah, nothing that can be done for this.

Oh well.


There is specifically something that can be done about this. You have to give up a little bit of the 1:1 control scheme to make room for a way to smoothly resynchronize the controller with the action. Oh and this just reminded me of something else. I do believe games are still programmed so that each character has a predetermined set of motions usually generated through initial motion capture. These are the only ways anything in the game can move which is probably why the Mii characters for the Wii have nor arms or legs. Anyway its currently impossible to judge accurately just how well motion control can match 1:1 because we are still stuck with characters with preset motions. Although I think they are moving away from this lately. Like Spore for example there is no real way to map out the movements every possible creation would make so they had to develop a way of making them move right based on how they were designed. Though I'm still not sure if they just pulled from a pool of generic possible movements and just tweaked it to work for each one or not.

[Krylo]

And I would also point out that this is a back track from this statement:Don't see how. I listed a bunch of technologies that will improve regardless of whether we use them for gaming. I still said those technologies would improve regardless of gaming.

You were focused on the difficulty of improving gyroscopes due to their standard uses, so I pointed out there's a slew of other technologies available to be used.



Sure it'll get better over time but their is no guarantee it will develop in a useful way for gaming.I doubt we're going to agree here, mostly because you seem to think that making games work with motion control is totally worth going through decades of shitty ass gaming, and I'm of the opinion that if it takes decades worth of shitty ass gaming... well, fuck it. It's not worth it.

I'm too old for this shit, and I'd like to be able to partake of the hobby I like in a way that is enjoyable before I'm 50. Ergo, I hope the current shitty attempts crash and burn so they move away from it.

For the record, I'm totally ok with Nintendo, OR Sony, OR Microsoft doing it. One shitty console that's only got a few good non-casual games--and even those suffer from control issues--I'm ok with. All three?

Not so much.

The strikes are significantly less 1:1If you're talking about Wii Fencing--Understatement much? It's totally spaz and flail spaz and flail.
The point is the Wii does 1:1 motion in the slower regions which means the hardware can do it there is just a problem somewhere else preventing it from doing 1:1 any faster. That problem is probably no inherent in the actual motion sensing controller. I'm not sure if I would draw the same conclusions here. After all the original Wii controller seemed to give pretty accurate control on some of the games, too. It was only when you moved too fast that the controller would really fuck up and miss what you're doing.

But if this is true--then I'm ok with Nintendo fixing the software and making decent games for it.





The key difference here is that chess doesn't involve physical activity. While the computer might not be an Olympic level fencer if you want to play for any length of time you are going to have to have some pretty hefty endurance. That or you are going to have to get pretty darn efficient and skillful. Even then any sort of marathon session is going to need some decent endurance. Not necessarily a bad thing in a video game but you know there are people that would raise holy hell about it even if the had no intention of ever buying the fencing game.
Yeah. People sure do bitch about DDR.

Logical fallacy much. I never said anything about anyone dieing because inverter technology lagged. Obviously that hasn't stopped solar installations of various sizes. The only thing it has done is make them more expensive and generally less useful then they could be. This outcome is a pretty close parallel to what might happen if everyone just gave up on motion control for games until the technology caught up. Technology mind you that no one is really working on in the exact form that is needed for playing a game.Point was that solar tech is kind of important, and yes, people COULD die in future generations if we don't develop it--same as any other 'alternative energy source'.

It's an entirely different level of importance from video games.

[Sithdarth]

I doubt we're going to agree here, mostly because you seem to think that making games work with motion control is totally worth going through decades of shitty ass gaming, and I'm of the opinion that if it takes decades worth of shitty ass gaming... well, fuck it. It's not worth it.

The entire point is that if they do it now it won't be 50 years of shitty ass gaming. We'll get one maybe two generations of relative crap before significant improvements. With the current rate of technological development its not going to take that long as long as someone is actively working on the problem. A big part of that is trying and failing and using that as inspiration. It speeds up the whole process.

I'm too old for this shit, and I'd like to be able to partake of the hobby I like in a way that is enjoyable before I'm 50. Ergo, I hope the current shitty attempts crash and burn so they move away from it.

Do you mean move away from motion control or move away from motion control that doesn't work because those are totally different somewhat incompatible arguments. Moving away from motion control entirely is just stupid. Moving away from what doesn't work is a better idea but more tricky because first they have to know what doesn't work and that's gonna take at least one try and its probably not the actual hardware for motion detecting that's the problem.

For the record, I'm totally ok with Nintendo, OR Sony, OR Microsoft doing it. One shitty console that's only got a few good non-casual games--and even those suffer from control issues--I'm ok with. All three?

Not so much.

More people working on the problem from different angles means more wrong paths get eliminated faster. You can't say I want decent motion control yesterday and at the same time say I only want one person working on the project. You might as well try to swim in a straight jacket.

If you're talking about Wii Fencing--Understatement much? It's totally spaz and flail spaz and flail.

I think significantly was about the perfect degree of not being overly critical and dramatic about something that isn't that big of a deal. Also, if we're talking about the fencing in Wii Sport Resort there are two roughly equally decent strategies. One is the failing and the other is to actually aim around the person's guards while keeping your guards in the right area. It works but takes some practice and someone that fails can still get in a lucky strike here and there and overwhelm you.

I'm not sure if I would draw the same conclusions here. After all the original Wii controller seemed to give pretty accurate control on some of the games, too. It was only when you moved too fast that the controller would really fuck up and miss what you're doing.

But if this is true--then I'm ok with Nintendo fixing the software and making decent games for it.


Like I said it may be in the software or the hardware outside of the controller. Its hard to really tell without like being on the development team or taking the whole thing apart. The motion plus certainly can read position and rotation at basically 1:1 as long as you aren't moving rapidly.

Yeah. People sure do bitch about DDR.

There is a significant difference between one game you can avoid and 90% of games using motion control.

Point was that solar tech is kind of important, and yes, people COULD die in future generations if we don't develop it--same as any other 'alternative energy source'.

It's an entirely different level of importance from video games.

Not even remotely true. Solar Tech is at the point now where it is completely viable for our energy needs. Weather or not it gets used is completely up to political will. Any future refinement in solar tech is just icing on the cake. If it happens then it'll be cheaper and easier to implement but there aren't going to be any significant impacts. Above and beyond that the importance of the technology has absolutely no impact at all on the allegorical point being made. That is to say the importance of the technology does not change the lesson that we can draw from it. That is to say just because solar tech is more important doesn't mean we can't take from our experiences with it the lesson that technology improves most quickly when you don't ignore part of it and wait for someone else to improve it. Denying that is like saying you can't learn about the importance of social teamwork in any cooperative setting by white water rafting.

[Krylo]

Moving away from motion control entirely is just stupid. Why?





More people working on the problem from different angles means more wrong paths get eliminated faster.I don't care if the problem gets eliminated faster. I care about being able to enjoy video games in the 5-10-15-whatever years in the interim




There is a significant difference between one game you can avoid and 90% of games using motion control.I'd rather not have 90% of games use motion control at all ever regardless of how good they make it.



we can't take from our experiences with it the lesson that technology improves most quickly when you don't ignore part of it and wait for someone else to improve it. Not arguing that.

Arguing that:

A) I don't care how quickly it improves. I don't care if they never get it working right in my lifetime.

B) What I do care about is being able to enjoy my hobby in the interim.

C) It's not important enough that it taking longer to improve will significantly impact standard of living/life expectancy/anything actually important at all.

Conclusion: Fewer people working on it/waiting for someone else to improve it is the preferable route.

[Jagos]

It speeds up the whole process.

Great, so how many games are going to be similar to Super Mario Galaxy and push the envelope?

Now, How many are going to be just like Wii Sports on crack? Pareto Principle tells us the developers in the interim aren't going to be able to put out quality in the next 5-10 years while they work on the kinks.

Moving away from motion control entirely is just stupid. Moving away from what doesn't work is a better idea but more tricky because first they have to know what doesn't work and that's gonna take at least one try and its probably not the actual hardware for motion detecting that's the problem.

Because motion control (http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&q=sega%20activator&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wi) is always a great thing. I doubt that the technology has necessarily moved far from the Activator. Nintendo has the market share and Sony and Microsoft are trying to catch up in an already crowded market. A market that really doesn't need expansion when all we're trying to do is enjoy games via keyboard or controller.

More people working on the problem from different angles means more wrong paths get eliminated faster.

But you also open more avenues of failure. So long as they're learning, great. But my viewpoint is why bother when all I'm trying to do is pass the time with Pokemon, God of War III or TF2?

[Sithdarth]

Why?

Because the technology and its applications have not been fully explored. Its stupid to give up on any technology until its at least matured to the point where innovation seems almost impossible. You just don't give up on a technology until you've pushed it as far is it will go or you hit a dead end. That or the applications of the technology become unethical or dangerous. None of these have happened with motion control and as such giving it up is stupid. For all we know Minority Report style computer interfaces are less than a decade away.

I don't care if the problem gets eliminated faster. I care about being able to enjoy video games in the 5-10-15-whatever years in the interim

Which should have been clearer from the beginning. Really was that so hard to just say at the end of a post somewhere. Of course it doesn't negate the errors in the other arguments you put forward either.

'd rather not have 90% of games use motion control at all ever regardless of how good they make it.


That's kind of a stupid position to take before you even know what that motion control will look like but you are entitled to it.

Not arguing that.

Arguing that:

A) I don't care how quickly it improves. I don't care if they never get it working right in my lifetime.

B) What I do care about is being able to enjoy my hobby in the interim.

C) It's not important enough that it taking longer to improve will significantly impact standard of living/life expectancy/anything actually important at all.

Conclusion: Fewer people working on it/waiting for someone else to improve it is the preferable route.

That's great but not actually in anyway a counter to the argument I put forward. Further, any conclusion is this case is at best opinion on either side.

Great, so how many games are going to be similar to Super Mario Galaxy and push the envelope?

Now, How many are going to be just like Wii Sports on crack? Pareto Principle tells us the developers in the interim aren't going to be able to put out quality in the next 5-10 years while they work on the kinks.


Just because people not involved in the development of a technology might misuse or abuse the technology is not an excuse to forgo the technology. Except if the misuse or abuse is actively harmful. Also, in technological development you have to go through the whole alphabet to get from A to Z. There are no shortcuts and not doing it now means it has to be done later.

Because motion control is always a great thing. I doubt that the technology has necessarily moved far from the Activator. Nintendo has the market share and Sony and Microsoft are trying to catch up in an already crowded market. A market that really doesn't need expansion when all we're trying to do is enjoy games via keyboard or controller.


Maybe you are but I think market forces are speaking pretty strongly in favor of motion control. You can hate it all you want but you can't expect it to change. You either accept it and enjoy what you can or you become a bitter shell of a person that can't seem to enjoy anything. Really the fact that there is so much crap out there has no real effect on you that you don't allow it to have. No one is forcing you to buy anything you don't like. Not making the crap isn't a guarantee that something great would be made. It would just not be made or other crap would be made in its place.

But you also open more avenues of failure. So long as they're learning, great. But my viewpoint is why bother when all I'm trying to do is pass the time with Pokemon, God of War III or TF2?

Because obviously the companies have not completely abandoned non-motion control. They probably won't completely in the near future. Further as much as you might like to think so it isn't about any individual's preference. Its about market forces and market forces are always king. If something sells well that is the direction technology will go. For good or ill its how capitalism works and we don't really have an alternative. So far its done a pretty good job technology wise.

[Jagos]

Sith, you're mixing my words here. The Pareto principle is being used to say that most of the things on the motion controllers is going to suck. 20% of the games are going to innovate in some way shape or form.

If anything, VR is going to take off and leave motion controls in the dust. With the lifelike graphics and cheaper computers, it's more likely that some other market force becomes introduced, making motion controlling obsolete.

You can hate it all you want but you can't expect it to change. You either accept it and enjoy what you can or you become a bitter shell of a person that can't seem to enjoy anything.

*looks at my own post*
Where the hell did I say I'm upset at new technology? Matter of fact, where did I say I hate Natal or the Arc? The Activator was an expensive add-on from Sega along with everything else that they tacked on to nickel and dime customers into enjoying a game system. Did I have fun with Mortal Kombat without the thing? Yes. Was it decent fun playing the same game and trying to do a high kick that the thing couldn't register? No. The main thing that link was for is to show what happens when they fail and what they can learn from.

I'll be surprised if out the door, the new remotes can truly cater to the Wiifans.

Further as much as you might like to think so it isn't about any individual's preference. Its about market forces and market forces are always king.
I believe you have that confused somewhat. You can have a superior product in any market but if you don't have the right signals or read the market wrong, you still suffer from the same failures. Everything could be lined up and raring to go, only for the market to suddenly change, leaving you out in the cold.

[Sithdarth]

Sith, you're mixing my words here. The Pareto principle is being used to say that most of the things on the motion controllers is going to suck. 20% of the games are going to innovate in some way shape or form.

Then what was your argument. Because when I hear someone say that only 20& of games are going to be good what I hear is 80% of games are going to be bad. Why bring up the point at all except as a counter point. Also the way the last sentence I quoted was worded really made it sound like you meant everything was going to be crap. All in all your argument wasn't very clear.

If anything, VR is going to take off and leave motion controls in the dust. With the lifelike graphics and cheaper computers, it's more likely that some other market force becomes introduced, making motion controlling obsolete.


Not a foregone conclusion by a long shot. Further our first tastes of VR is just as likely to be better goggles and motion control gloves as it is plugging into the matrix. Just like we shouldn't be limiting ourselves to one avenue for motion control we shouldn't be limiting ourselves to one avenue for VR. For example, I give you the Keck Cave. (http://keckcaves.ucdavis.edu/acknowledgements/KeckCAVESbrochure_web.pdf) It uses goggles, capture of head motion, a position sensitive wand, and position sensitive gloves all to extremely great effect. I also give you the Virtusphere (http://www.virtusphere.com/index.html). I say that some unholy combination of the two would be pretty damn awesome.

*looks at my own post*
Where the hell did I say I'm upset at new technology? Matter of fact, where did I say I hate Natal or the Arc? The Activator was an expensive add-on from Sega along with everything else that they tacked on to nickel and dime customers into enjoying a game system. Did I have fun with Mortal Kombat without the thing? Yes. Was it decent fun playing the same game and trying to do a high kick that the thing couldn't register? No. The main thing that link was for is to show what happens when they fail and what they can learn from.

Well you jumped into an argument of fore and against with arguments similar to the against side. If you didn't want to be in the against camp you should have been clearer about your neutrality on the issue. Granted I could myself have reigned in the conclusions but doing that just bit me in the rear in regards to not inferring the right motivation behind Krylo's posts. Seems I'm damned if I do and damned if I don't.

I believe you have that confused somewhat. You can have a superior product in any market but if you don't have the right signals or read the market wrong, you still suffer from the same failures. Everything could be lined up and raring to go, only for the market to suddenly change, leaving you out in the cold.

And how does that change anything about market forces are king. Market forces still rule regardless of your ability, or ineptitude, at reading/predicting them. If there wasn't signs the majority of the market wanted motion controls then there wouldn't be a push for it. If the market shifts and backfires then so be it. I'm fairly certain before making any major move they will put market analysts on the case and if they screw up then the market was just in a state that couldn't be predicted. In which case cautiously going with what the trend currently is now is really the safest bet. You risk too much by going all in or waiting for it to settle into a more predictable pattern. Either way market forces are still king.

[Jagos]

Then what was your argument. Because when I hear someone say that only 20& of games are going to be good what I hear is 80% of games are going to be bad. Why bring up the point at all except as a counter point. Also the way the last sentence I quoted was worded really made it sound like you meant everything was going to be crap. All in all your argument wasn't very clear.

You're saying that within 50 years, we'll have games that exceed based on motion control. There will be minor implementations that make it better, but this was based on one assessment of your argument. Mainly, within that timeframe, why should I, or any of the external market forces (ie people) care about motion control when it's not going to be spectacular? The best games for the Wii are Super Mario Galaxy and No More Heroes (I don't have a Wii, so no particular bias there) with Galaxy revolutionizing how their game was implemented by working with gravity and No More Heroes based on a satire of videogames themselves. It's not a dismissal of the good games such as Mad World or Metroid, merely stating that they're within the 80% of games that aren't exceptional. In both cases, odds are they would have worked just fine with a mouse and keyboard. Since they were on the Wii, they got the special controls. Which leads to this one:

Either way market forces are still king.

I wasn't disagreeing with you, merely telling the tale of what happens if the market is read wrong. Sega had more problems than the Activator. There was too much hardware introduced in a short time frame, causing consumers to not want to spend money on a system that couldn't identify what it wanted to be.

motion controls in general

It's going to take a while to convince me on a personal level to jump with motion control. Namely, I see it as a new feature to be added to keyboard and mouse. I doubt it'll take over for "ye olde faithful" anytime soon, not until the market of consumers and business force an amazing application on us that makes this extremely profitable. Will it be done soon? Highly unlikely. Maybe Super Mario Universe with VR glasses will make it to the Nintendo Instation soon. :)