Game Building Help

[Nique]

It's that time again! Things have been progressing on my table-top game / system development.

Below is a sample character sheet. As you might be able to discern, Abilities and Features are derived from Raw Stats. Basically your starting character will get 30 Raw stat points to start with, the Ability scores are 10% of the relating stats (rounded up) which represents how many D6 you roll to determine the outcome of actions. Players can add extra dice under certain circumstances via Features and permanent enhancements to stats via armor and weaponry.

What I'm having trouble with is Skills at the moment. I have an existing skill-building chart that determines MP cost for different types of Buffs, Debuffs, and Damage dealing abilities (or a combination thereof). The problem with it currently is that there is surprisingly little variety in types of skills (there aren't really any spells besides buffs and debuffs to speak of) and also that it doesn't really allow MP scores to rise as the character levels up or else 1-2 hit kills can be potentially be repeated several times before mana runs out if it did rise with the character level.

To me, not having mana go up sounds kind of unsatisfying for magic/energy leaning characters. What I'm looking for is some suggestions and any feedback you guys feel like offering based on what you see here.



EDIT: Ugh. Guess I'm not sure how attachments work these days. Here:

http://img175.imageshack.us/img175/2500/sheet1.png (http://img175.imageshack.us/i/sheet1.png/)

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http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/4014/sheet2.png (http://img291.imageshack.us/i/sheet2.png/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

[Professor Smarmiarty]

I jsut have to know: Does the academia skill determine your ability to smoke a pipe, do work while smashed off whiskey, and trick undergrads into doing your work for you?

[Nique]

I jsut have to know: Does the academia skill determine your ability to smoke a pipe, do work while smashed off whiskey, and trick undergrads into doing your work for you?

I jsut have to know...

...jsut...

Are you drunk?

Also: If you can RP it in and RP it HARD, than hell yeah take the extra dice role.

[Azisien]

MP should rise with level but you can also increase the cost/effectiveness of whatever spells there are in this game. If you allow that though, to keep some semblance of power in check, just make sure effectiveness increases linearly and cost increases exponentially, or near.

[Nique]

Like the skill modifier goes up by 1 where cost doubles with each level?

Also what type of skills can I add that are more strategy oriented?

[Azisien]

Like the skill modifier goes up by 1 where cost doubles with each level?

Yeah, something like that, or maybe something slow and geometric like it goes up by 1/1 for modifier/cost for a few levels, then 1/2, then 1/4, etc. You reach a happy medium because eventually, the cost becomes insurmountable so mages are capped in their power, but they also improve with levels and don't feel as bad.

Also what type of skills can I add that are more strategy oriented?

Strategy like, useful in combat? You could have a Tactics skill that gives bonuses to you and allies based on its modifier if you use it before combat.

[shiney]

Limit the amount of recovery items that can be used during a combat encounter? Forcing your players to strategize with limited resources or imposing cool-downs is much better than the "magic potion" "big spell" that some tend to go for.

[Bells]

That sheet screams of D&D but it's not really all that different from what i use myself when i working on my system...

One thing i did, at it seems to work ok, is to push the Magic system to a MMORPG mindset. So, even a normal fighter has some sort of Magic spell, even if it only buffs his sword skill...

The trick? As you level the character the character may level up his skills. Increasing power, range, speed and the such... but as you increase a certain skill, it's costs also rise.

So, in one go you have character customization (allowing characters to specialize in their skills) and progression. Also you don't have to worry about late payoff... like having characters gain skills late in the game that are just new versions of old skills or weaker than early skills.

[Meister]

How exactly do abilities work when they're based off two stats? Like Power STR/VIT - is it the average of the two, the better, one divided by the other etc?

Also, what constitutes a successful roll? Never played anything with dice pools.

[Nique]

The two-stat based Abilities are an average of the two stats / 10.

As far as Dice rolls... well, let's say my Awareness (which includes accuracy) score is '2', and I'm trying to hit a monster with a Stealth (Evasion) of '3'. I would roll 2 D6s and the GM would roll 3 D6s. If I rolled higher than the GM then my attack lands.

Then you roll in the same way for damage - Basically roll how ever many D6s (determined by the Skill and the attacking Ability) against the defender's D6s and the result is the damage taken in hit points.

The game can be played without dice roles, or without dice roles determining everything. The math all works out the same (the equations are all a little complicated, but they work). It just seemed more fun that way.

imposing cool-downs

Ohh! Actually a pretty good suggestion... I could make anything with a potential for extremely high damage be a once-per-battle/ once per day ability. I'll have to think about how to determine the cost for something like that but I like it...

That sheet screams of D&D

Yeah I'm kind of hoping the hook for this lay within the ability to customize games around the core system - For basically the last two years I've been creating equations that per-balance multiple game types and this particular game is just one example. I know the stats especially are pretty much DnD's lineup, although if I'm not mistaken I'm using the WIS stat in a fairly unique way. That may be just a superficial difference though.

I'm kind of trying to break down RPG elements into more universal categories that can be added to or removed from created games, as well as give flexibility to PCs without creating an unbalanced game.

[tacticslion]

Nique, I notice you seem to be playing with the four/five element chart (though shame on you, you substituted ether for either wood or metal!... not really I would have done the same thing), though a thought has occured to me, as I've been toying around with for a while. Instead of the classical elements (or maybe identified as them) are various energy states of matter - solid, liquid, gas, plasma, with a void (or ether) being a theorized fifth/zeroth state of matter.

It would go something like:
Earth (solid): solid, reliable, consistant, but does little without vast expenditures of energy. Very subtle, near-permanent effects.

Water (liquid): mobile, malleable, powerful, but requires a fair amount of energy to get things moving, but once set, generally goes about well enough until its finished. Fairly subtle, long-duration effects.

Wind (gas): highly mobile, slightly volatile, and requires comparatively little energy to start, but difficult to focus or control (is usually harnessed rather than controlled). Fairly flashy, limited duration effects.

Fire (plasma): volatile, and exceedingly powerful, requires little energy to start things, but unreliable, inconsistant, and dependant on other factors, really difficult to control. Very flashy (literally), near-instant effects.

Ectoplasm, Ether, Force, Void, Whatever: manipulates the other elements, helps stabalize or destabilize them, sets them up so that they function properly (or improperly, as the case may be).

With this in place, designing your magic becomes easier to manage, and a given mage becomes more versatile - earth mages can deal damage by permanently enhancing steel, while fire mages deal damage by creating minor flares of fire. Water would create a lasting repeating attacks, while wind would spend a few rounds of repeating damage. Water mages heal by speeding up the metabolism for a day, while wind mages heal by a few repeated minutes or rounds of regernative healing. Earth would give a minor, but permanent boost to health or regeneration, while fire would nearly instantly knit a wound. Even the 'permanent' earth effects could be 'permanent' only so long as a given mage stored their mana. If they wanted to remove it, they could, but would have to restore their lost mana by resting before enhancing again. Fire mages would be equally ready (or equally exhausted) at any time, day or night. This give versatility (any mage can fill any roll) but strong limits (elemental association determines how your magic functions). In this way, you don't need to worry about how a mage progresses - earth for healing or fire for destruction (they both do both), but only scaling according to the amount that they deal.

Alternatively, if you go with the cool-down times, it could be something akin to a fire mage has less 'cool down' time powers, but they are over-all weaker, while an earth mage has much longer cool-down powers but are over-all stronger. This would encourage dabbling in all the elements, however for a broad spectrum.

One final thought for magic-balance issues, is the DnD idea of "tiers" of play. In this case, you'd assign (presumably "mathematically 'clean'" ideas of "from number W to X" it's 1/1 cost, but "from number X to Y" it's 1/3 cost, and "from numbers Y to Z" it's 1/5 cost - it really depends on your system build.

One final idea is the way to differentiate magic from physics. In magic, it's easier to cause damage (as in physics) but magic damage only takes you so far. The higher up you go, the more it becomes about utility functions and the less comparitive damage you can do. This means a higher level mage won't always be insta-killing, save on lower power targets. Meanwhile, they start getting impressive utilities that others can only dream of, while not able to deal as high a damage output.

One final idea I've been toying around with is the concept of wound points. I really don't know how you'd like them, but the base concept: hit points are to make hits only glancing blows, while wound points aren't. I've started to apply this to some of my DnD games, where instead of negative hit points, players have wound points equal to (10+[CON score]+[1/base fortitude save bonus]). These wound points are what has to go away before someone dies (a much higher window than -10). However, critical hits detract from wound points and hit points (an equal damage to each) allowing someone to kill a character quickly with high crits, or death attacks (which apply to both hp and wp). In this variant, I get to ignore death from massive damage, and explain why people heal so easily, but are killed so quickly. It doesn't seem like you'd be interested in this concept, but I'm throwing it out there. If you did like it, you could even toy with it a bit, getting various thresh-holds for death or whatever.

Anyway, these aren't mechanic-specific (save the wound-points), but are kind of general suggestions. Feel free to take or leave any portion of any of them, at your option.

[Nique]

I'm hoping this is alright since it is basically going to be all about the same stuff, but if I'm breaking something by ressurecting a 3 week old thread, I apologize.

If anyone is interested I have begun designing a system for abilities more akin to my original idea of full-customization.

Basically you can build spells on the fly (or have preset ones in the holster) by walking through the following 8 steps

1. Generating the magic - Picking an element to manipulate, ether being the default selection.

2. Determining the strength of the effect (same math for direct damage, buffs/debuffs or heals)

3. Determining the distance or AOE (or else the spell just explodes in your immediate area)

4. Targeting (Or it is automatically an AOE based on step 3)

5. Shape/ Propety - this is where it get's interesting. You can give the energy you are manipulating a shape or alter it. Complicated alterations come at a premium, but if you want to ride a flame motorcycle, go for it.

6. Size - The bigger something is, the more it costs

7. Special properties - this would include things like buffs, moving people/objects, mind control or other. Again, the more advanced (could be determined by a GM) the higher the cost.

8. Duration - How long the spell or effect of the spell lasts.

You can create pretty effective attacks or heals with the first 4 steps, and then the last 4 give you lots of room for creativity and stratedgy. It may take a little time to create abilities off the fly, but it could be really fun esspecially if you want to really go in depth when describing your attacks. I can describe the MP cost in detail if anyone is interested.

[tacticslion]

I'm hoping this is alright since it is basically going to be all about the same stuff, but if I'm breaking something by ressurecting a 3 week old thread, I apologize.

If anyone is interested I have begun designing a system for abilities more akin to my original idea of full-customization.

Basically you can build spells on the fly (or have preset ones in the holster) by walking through the following 8 steps

1. Generating the magic - Picking an element to manipulate, ether being the default selection.

2. Determining the strength of the effect (same math for direct damage, buffs/debuffs or heals)

3. Determining the distance or AOE (or else the spell just explodes in your immediate area)

4. Targeting (Or it is automatically an AOE based on step 3)

5. Shape/ Propety - this is where it get's interesting. You can give the energy you are manipulating a shape or alter it. Complicated alterations come at a premium, but if you want to ride a flame motorcycle, go for it.

6. Size - The bigger something is, the more it costs

7. Special properties - this would include things like buffs, moving people/objects, mind control or other. Again, the more advanced (could be determined by a GM) the higher the cost.

8. Duration - How long the spell or effect of the spell lasts.

You can create pretty effective attacks or heals with the first 4 steps, and then the last 4 give you lots of room for creativity and stratedgy. It may take a little time to create abilities off the fly, but it could be really fun esspecially if you want to really go in depth when describing your attacks. I can describe the MP cost in detail if anyone is interested.

I like the idea you propose (and would be interested in seeing the MP costs) but what is the basic limiting factor (other than MP)? As it stands a person could really do some serious things with only the limits as described.

For example, what is the difference between the elements? What does it matter if I'm water, fire, ether, or whatever? What are the limitations to my options? Without limitations, I could, say, customize a spell that affects only me, lasts only for the instant I cast it, and has a simple enough structure: I grant my own wish. Example: I'm immortal! The spell is to grant my instant wish, and the effect is immediate and ceases, it's over instantly, but the results are forever. Similarly, a fireball launched out is instant, but the results (the fire damage) are forever. I doubt this is viable logic in your system, but I'm curious as to why it's not - how your system handles these things. What is the basis for the elemental divisions?

[Nique]

Good questions. The cost is not determined by the duration of the casting time, but rather by the ultimate effect your skill will have. For example 'Power' would, generally, represent the numerical effect of the spell or skill. A powerful 'fireball' might burn out quickly and deal 'x' amoutn of damage. But you can make the flame continue to burn by adding 'Duration', thus actually lighting your enemy on fire, or creating a shield of fire to hide behind while your party regroups.


And you want to be immortal? In addtion to the massive buffs required to resist all physical and magic (energy) based damage (in itself a high cost), you'd have to sustain 'Immortality' by constantly draining your MP to pay for each 'turn' you retain your immortality. In short this could only be accomplished by an extremely high-level character or possesing an item that constantly replenishes your mana.

The difference between elements is tactical - Think bending from 'Avatar'. A straight elemental attack whether fire, earth, wind, water or ether could end up having the same numerical effect and thus are simply flare or stylistic choices (I 'burn' my opponent with a firewall, I trap them in a water bubble, etc).

Also let's say you want preform a really outreageous stunt like launching your teammate off of a pillar of earth so that he comes down hard on your opponent with his battle axe? You pay MP for creating the pillars but do NOT have to pay for the extra power the attack will have becuase of the velocity (although this too is limited - gravity only adds so much power and you'd have to pay if you want to add velocity). Your attacking teammate gets extra dice to roll for the power of his attack. Then becuase you did something awsome maybe the GM could give you a random bonus like 0 MP cost or grant even MORE power to the attack.

Costs are pretty easy to figure. Although there are certain specifics I am still working out, it's generally 1/1. Generate fire? Add 1. Granting 1 point of power/damage? Add 1. Adding dice? Add 3 p/ D6. Adding distance? Add 1 p/ space (on a grid). Add 1 per specific target, add 1 per turn for duration, and so on.

[Azisien]

There's nothing out and out wrong with that level of customization within spells but I can't really consider it until I see some quantification of all those different things you could manipulate, and the balance those numbers create. In the end, that's really all that matters.

[Nique]

Are there any specific problems you're seeing off hand? Or do you just need to know like, how much total damage is possible versus the HP build available?

Characters get 30 points to divide between 6 main stats, those scores are divided by 10 to determine the amount of dice rolled for specific abilities (Attack, accuracy, etc)

Initial HP builds range from 8 to 20 and grows from there. A range of 1-10 Damage is considered 1 "hit" so 1-10 Damage is -1 HP, 11-20 is -2 HP, and so on.

Initial MP builds also ranges from 8-20 so you're by nessecity limited to pretty basic spells at the onset, but can do more creative or long lasting effects later on. Here's the costs for each 'step' in a spell, see if you can pinpoint anything problematic

1. Generate - Add a cost of 1MP for every element used.
2. Power - Add a cost of 1MP for every 1 point added to the effect or a cost of 3MP for every additional D6 rolled (whether it is a buff or straight damage)
3. Distance - Add 1MP for each space in the total diameter of the AOE or distance to the target(s)
4. Target - Add 1 MP for every specific target
5. Shape/ Property - Costs range from 1MP for simple alterations to 4MP or more for complicated ones
6. Size - 1MP for small shapes to 4MP or more for huge shapes
7. Special properties - 1MP for 'simple' alterations (buffing, debuffing p/ stat) up to 4MP+ for complicated alterations (making something invisible, mind control, etc).
8. Duration - 1 per turn the effect of the spell lasts (beyind the initial hit.)

Now already I can see certain costs need to be boosted OR I need to adjust the rules somehow... Hm. Need food now, more typing later.

[Azisien]

Nope, just them numbers there is better than before.

The problem I not so much see, but "feel" (since I have no evidence), is that with such an open (and great), free-flowing magic system, you have so many more options than other gaming systems. With SO many options, it is difficult to balance, it may be easy to break or twink. I'd just hate to be the play testers, that's all. :sweatdrop

One thing that I think I mentioned in an earlier post was making costs geometric compared to linear progression at some point, as this basically puts a cap on magic that could otherwise become overpowered. Example: pretty much any d20 Point Buy system.

[Nique]

Costs could be raised pretty easily based on level. Just not sure by exactly how much...

Really appreciate the feedback guys.

[Odjn]

The two-stat based Abilities are an average of the two stats / 10.

As far as Dice rolls... well, let's say my Awareness (which includes accuracy) score is '2', and I'm trying to hit a monster with a Stealth (Evasion) of '3'. I would roll 2 D6s and the GM would roll 3 D6s. If I rolled higher than the GM then my attack lands.

Would you mind explaining what each stat and skill covers? It's hard to form an opinion without knowing what does what. Also, I hope two stat abilities are more valuable/necessary than one stat due to the higher costs. Awareness, if it's accuracy, is worth it- how about the others?

How does healing HP/MP work? Are MP pools large but slow to recover or smaller and faster to renew? Basically we need more info to judge your system.

[Nique]

Would you mind explaining what each stat and skill covers?

STATS: Raw build that determines ability scores

STR - Physical Power
VIT - Endurance
DEX - Dexterity, Physical Speed
WIS - Intuition, foresight
INT - Knowledge
CHA - Adaptability, abstract qualities


ABILITIES: 'Offensive' and 'defensive' abilities, in general you roll one against it's corrosponding other.

'Offensive':
Attack - Physical attack
Power - Physical support, exert power, stress
Range - Distance of attack
Awareness - Accuracy, Observation, Physical Awareness
Knowledge - Knowledge, ability to learn, energy manipulation
Charisma - Persuasiveness, intimidation

'Defensive':
Defense - Resistance to physical blows
Stamina - Endurance, withstand physical stress
Distance - Speed of travel (how many spaces you can move in a turn)
Stealth - Evasion, stealth
Luck - Energy defense, receptiveness to heals, chance of fortuitous outcome
Wit - Willpower, Cleverness,

How does healing HP/MP work?

At this point restorative items or rest would seem to work best. There are pratical healing applications of manipulating elements (water/ earth could put out a fire, fire could cauterize a wound to stop HP loss, an air bubble could stop someone from drowning, etc. ) that could help save on items.

I haven't really considered MP being restored naturally over time, but I can see the benefits - I'm just not sure how it would be appropriate to implement.