D&D advice [Archive] - The Warring States of NPF

Tev

01-27-2011, 10:57 AM

The best D&D players are able to play characters that are completely different from who they are in real life.
Fist and foremost, this is not correct in any way, nor is it the point of D&D, nor does it make anyone a better roleplayer than anyone else.

That being said, how evil are you shooting for here? I mean, there's "cultist level" evil where your main goal is to summon up some eldritch abomination that serves your obviously evil deity. Usually this couples well with the evils of kidnapping and murder as you have to get your virgin sacrifices from somewhere (double points if it's a princess). Also you get the collateral evils of random pillaging, murder, and scare-tactics that come part in parcel with having a cult of crazed idiots rampaging around for you.

If you're more a "singular evil" type of person, you could always work the assassination circuit. Only take jobs from truly evil people who want to see the forces of good killed off to further their own dark plans. You even get bonus points again by taking contracts out on your own masters by their own evil rivals.

Then there's just stuff like "bandit level" evil where you're some callous thug or murderer.

I mean, evil games usually devolve into players not getting along because of the common flaws of being evil so it's not like you really have to worry about having to deal with an evil-based game for too long. But yeah, if you're not really comfortable being evil just tell your GM that this setting just isn't working for you and either ask him for some advice or wait it out until it collapses around the party. But don't for one minute think that you somehow have to tap into some imaginary evil just to be a good roleplayer.

Professor Smarmiarty

01-27-2011, 11:11 AM

Blow up the sun

Krylo

01-27-2011, 11:51 AM

Blow up the sun

Now that's just ridiculous. Blow up the sun.

This is D&D, we're talking about. Not some Bond flick.

...Blow up the material plane.

CelesJessa

01-27-2011, 12:09 PM

I guess I feel uncomfortable about being mean for no reason.

If you feel bad about acting mean, just remember it's just roleplaying and secretly everyone loves that evil bastard character.

For some reason when I play DnD I always play massively bitchy characters, when, normally, I try to be nice. Once you get past that awkwardness of acting like a total douchebag it's a lot of fun. Or I'm just secretly a huge bitch.

Shyria Dracnoir

01-27-2011, 12:32 PM

I'll admit, I'm probably even worse than you at faking evil, but to provide some general characteristics, evil characters are more concerned with their personal interests and feelings than those of others (like, even moreso than the typical gang of PCs). They also never take responsibility for their own actions, but instead blame external forces for their personal shortcomings or unhappiness. Vengance could be a good expression of this; an evil character may burn down the inn because the bartender failed to mix their drink properly.

Basically, hang around the Internet for long enough, you'll find some good sources of inspiration.

bluestarultor

01-27-2011, 06:08 PM

Bells

01-27-2011, 07:28 PM

you point out your own problem right at the start man... you say you can't be evil for no reason. That's because you see no reason to be evil.

Some of the most evil people in history never saw themselves as evil. It's usually how everyone else perceived them, not how they perceived themselves.

So, if you don't want to roleplay as someone who is "sickly evil" (as in a full blown Psychopath or Pyromaniac) you need to find justification for your character to do things that others would consider evil, specially if the point of his actions is to advance his own personal agenda.

As in, to get the king do dispatch warriors to crush a Gang of Thieves that occupy a territory and are causing you and your party a ton of trouble, you could get a job as one of the guardsmen of the King, kill on of these thiefs, then kill the King's newborn baby, the bring for the king the corpse of that thief as "proof" that they did it. And there you go... see how the murder of a innocent child is just a "step" in the middle of a plan? That's pretty fucking evil right there.

Krylo

01-27-2011, 07:34 PM

You know, evil is not always evil on the face of things. For all purposes, a truly evil person will look like a pretty good example of a good person, doing things that appear good, but in reality further their evil goals. Kill an evil despot, not to save the people, but to take all his shiny stuff and leave a huge power vacuum that destabilizes the whole region and leave the place in utter chaos as factions fight for power. That causes more death and destruction than teaming up with the guy ever could. If there's a good guy ready and waiting to take his place, just make sure he tragically gets killed in the crossfire. Free a ton of slaves and incite them to revolt, then watch them all get cut down in battle or recaptured and executed. Or worse yet, turned back into slaves, cutting their freedom short and dashing their hopes. Rescue a princess from orcs, but feed her a love potion or something so she falls in love with one of their people of power. Dragging her away will cause her great distress, and the orc tribe might try to get her back, causing a battle that wouldn't have needed to happen. Even if not, it's lose/lose for her kingdom. If the king lets her stay with them, short of the DM pulling another heir out of his ass, his kingdom is done for, and if not, he starts a battle with the orcs anyway, they get wiped out, and his daughter either dies taking an arrow for her love or is forever scarred by his death.

But hey, you saved the princess.

See, being evil doesn't have to be overt. You just have to make sure your good party members don't know what's going on behind the scenes. If you have worthwhile players who separate in-game and OOC knowledge, you can do just fine.

Pah. That's all pointless chaotic evil stuff.

You're on the right track, but you're not finishing anything out proper.

For instance: Why just stand back when the power vacuum rolls in and causes infighting? Why not wait until each army has weakened themselves, and then use your fame as the slayer of the despot to raise your own army, join an alliance with some of the weaker factions, and then turn on them once all the credible threats have been dealt with?

If you're going to free the slaves and have them revolt, why merely watch? Why not use the revolt as a cover for something else, whether stealing a priceless artifact or assassinating the ruler of the slave owning kingdom so you can take over?

If you're going to feed the princess a love potion, why not make her fall in love with you, marry her, and then assassinate the king, ascend to the throne, and then kill her after the fact if she's not your type?

Being 'evil' is just a means to an end. With no end it's pointless and cliched.

Aldurin

01-27-2011, 07:35 PM

Random indiscriminate murder and theft would be a good start.

Bells

01-27-2011, 08:43 PM

Random indiscriminate murder and theft would be a good start.

That's not necessarily Evil... it's just being a prick in a murderous way really.

Being Evil really depends on the campaing too... i mean, you could torture people for informations that are interesting to your group's quest, and not let your fellow team members know of the stuff you do behind the scenes to get them riches and info... that's also quite evil.

bluestarultor

01-27-2011, 08:49 PM

Pah. That's all pointless chaotic evil stuff.

You're on the right track, but you're not finishing anything out proper.

For instance: Why just stand back when the power vacuum rolls in and causes infighting? Why not wait until each army has weakened themselves, and then use your fame as the slayer of the despot to raise your own army, join an alliance with some of the weaker factions, and then turn on them once all the credible threats have been dealt with?

If you're going to free the slaves and have them revolt, why merely watch? Why not use the revolt as a cover for something else, whether stealing a priceless artifact or assassinating the ruler of the slave owning kingdom so you can take over?

If you're going to feed the princess a love potion, why not make her fall in love with you, marry her, and then assassinate the king, ascend to the throne, and then kill her after the fact if she's not your type?

Being 'evil' is just a means to an end. With no end it's pointless and cliched.

Well, he was already chaotic, so I figured he'd just stick with that. Besides, we're trying to ease him into this.

Also, I don't know how his DM operates, so I don't know if he could even get away with that much if whoever it is isn't up to properly accommodating him.

tacticslion

02-05-2011, 12:12 AM

...especially if you're going to make it again in a few rounds anyway!

As to Walker's query:
Evil is really two-fold thing - it comes either from application or intent.

Although it's difficult to for some of us (me) to be evil (ex: "Look, I know I'm a chaotic evil murderous Antipaladin who hates all life, I just don't see why I shouldn't give that poor widow the 5k gold we just earned - after all, it was our negligence, as you described it, that to her husbands untimely demise - though I admit it could have been from natural causes - and so it only seems fair that she get enough to take care of her in her old age! What? Why are you looking at me like that? Oh, right... your look obviously means I should also not forget that I could sell some of my rare equipment to help those orphans whose house was burned down in a lightning storm! Oh, look, a drowning puppy to save! Hey, you guys, while we're at it, let's go stop that evil dragon from terrorizing..." etc. Hey! Don't judge me! My lawful good characters... aren't always! Shut up!), but it really depends on what your GM considers "evil". Desire, Killing, even Jealousy - these things are not inherently evil. Desire turning to evil lust or gluttonous greed is. Or, if that desire is acted upon in such a way as to bring about unmerited destruction to "innocent" bystanders. Killing isn't evil - self defense is justified. Murder (the methodical planning of killing a creature outside of self-defense, war, and food-supply) is, in most moral codes. Jealousy - the desire to keep what belongs to you alone - isn't inherently evil. A refusal to share needed resources with "good" people, or envy of someone else's stuff is.

As Bells said, MOST people don't think of themselves as evil. They think of themselves, at worst, as neutral. Even when horrendous acts are committed, they are "justified" somehow. Evil people saying "man, that's evil, I'mma go do that" are just (criminally) insane, and usually don't last long. Further, even evil people have emotions and are, at heart, people. They might even have that special someone they care about... and might prove it by offering a worthy sacrifice of, say, a hundred slaves (taken from the nearby villaiges and properly "adjusted" with mind-altering magic). Some might think that "evil" is just a bunch of bunk - nothing at all. Others, like Kore from Goblins (http://www.goblinscomic.com/08262005/) (he's a great example of that, really, especially here (http://www.goblinscomic.com/09172005/)) actually believe that they are good and are doing good, even as their evil is hidden from their own eyes.

The short version - if you think it can at all be used to your advantage - look like a "good-guy". Sure, give the poor widow money - so long as people are around to watch you. Meanwhile, do whatever you can to harm others while enriching or pleasing yourself. Even later sneaking into that widow's home and stealing it back. Alternatively, if you think you can find a way to justify the murder of many non-evil creatures ("why, humans are a plague - a blight on the world; I'm just making the world a better place, can't you see?" [the elven group called the Eldath Valuthra feel this way, thinking of themselves as secret heroes, even as they murder innocents]) to yourself, hey, there you go: easy evil.

And Krylo, Krylo, Krylo: I'm disappointed in you. Why kill her? Why not use various mental magics to completely alter her personality and transformative magics to change her physically so that she becomes your type? That's the first response! The murder only comes after everyone truly thinks that you are their worthy and benevolent king - so that no pretenders to your throne could possibly ever challenge you. See, you do so much "charity" work... and, you know, it's a shame about those assassins that keep popping up...

Really this is kind of rehashing old ground, but what I'd like to hear is the kind of things you tried, while your GM said "not evil enough". That'd give us a good place to start.

Krylo

02-05-2011, 12:19 AM

...especially if you're going to make it again in a few rounds anyway!It is if you don't evacuate first, and murder every single man woman and child on the plane in the process!
And Krylo, Krylo, Krylo: I'm disappointed in you. Why kill her? Why not use various mental magics to completely alter her personality and transformative magics to change her physically so that she becomes your type? That's the first response! The murder only comes after everyone truly thinks that you are their worthy and benevolent king - so that no pretenders to your throne could possibly ever challenge you. See, you do so much "charity" work... and, you know, it's a shame about those assassins that keep popping up...
Because that is a lot of effort and resources to waste on one bitch when I'm an evil motherfucker with an entire kingdom to choose from and no compunctions about killing people.

And fuck all this public work shit. A fair but iron hand. Raise up the poor, murder the rich, cultivate loyalty through education and training, and rigorous mental readjustment programs in the mandatory military training that all men serve so as to instill in them work ethic and values... and the ability to kill in my name. And are well paid for.

Don't need none of that fake benevolence. Just need some good ole demagoguery.

EVILNess

02-05-2011, 12:26 AM

Yeah, sorry can't help you with being evil.

All my characters are driving forces of healthy change and new leadership in a stagnant and corrupt monarchy, who are all loved unconditionally by their people. (http://www.nuklearforums.com/showpost.php?p=1025200&postcount=5)

tacticslion

02-05-2011, 12:28 AM

It is if you don't evacuate first, and murder every single man woman and child on the plane in the process!Mass Rez, dude! They'll be fine! OR they'll be in their eternal reward! So, you know, it's all cool!

Because that is a lot of effort and resources to waste on one bitch when I'm an evil motherfucker with an entire kingdom to choose from and no compunctions about killing people. Bah, the point is if it's really her, there's nothing anyone can do, legally, against you. No revolts can be made in her name, no martyr for some crusading do-gooder to rally behind, nothing but pure, unadulterated legal right to be there. Sure, it's work, but it's all up-front. Heck, really trick her out, and get whatever you want with her still there. So long as it's legal. Even a chaotic evil person can appreciate the benefit of having the law work for you. Obviously you don't respect the law, but those sucker-paladins sure will. You pity da' foo's.

And fuck all this public work shit. A fair but iron hand. Raise up the poor, murder the rich, cultivate loyalty through education and training, and rigorous mental readjustment programs in the mandatory military training that all men serve so as to instill in them work ethic and values... and the ability to kill in my name. And are well paid for. Okay, yes, I grant the fair-but-iron hand. But seriously, if you're going to the trouble of re-educating a society like that, you might as well throw the (now willing) princess through the mind-grinder while you're at it, right?

Don't need none of that fake benevolence. Just need some good ole demagoguery.
True. True.

Krylo

02-05-2011, 12:32 AM

Okay, yes, I grant the fair-but-iron hand. But seriously, if you're going to the trouble of re-educating a society like that, you might as well throw the (now willing) princess through the mind-grinder while you're at it, right?

I don't think Boot Camp works for lovers.

Edit: And she'd have to be poor for the whole "Hey look, you get food on your plate" to work.

And really, I think I'd rather just find someone who's already wired proper in the first place. The whole mind control thing NEVER works out in the end. They always regain their free will and stab you in the back or something.

Aldurin

02-05-2011, 01:00 AM

You want evil, I'll give you evil.

Genetically modified Creepers that are 99.999% transparent. Oh and they fly too.

tacticslion

02-05-2011, 01:06 AM

The whole mind control thing NEVER works out in the end. They always regain their free will and stab you in the back or something.

Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat? Have you never heard of "hypnotism"? Permanent two steps more friendly to any suggestion. It's not a curse. It's not even detectable. It just is.

Oh, wait, it's a random HD: maximize. Oh, wait, they're higher than 8th level: Empower. Cheap as sin, and soooooooooooooo easy to use. Not a caster? Get someone to make you Eyes of Hypnotism. Forget Charming, Hyps where it's at! I mean, yeah, I see you're point, but still. ALTernatively - helm of opposite alignment. Or, heck, while they're charmed, work them over diplomatically into accepting an atonement.

Really, if the GM protests - especially if you're working in a pre-published setting like Faerun - simply pull the published stuff: shield dwarves who've been charmed so long they actually believe that the illithid deity (and working with grimlocks) is their only means to salvation, as but one example.

And boot-camp works perfectly for lovers! Also, if she's already perma-charmed (say, by a Phylter of Love, which I was presuming was fed to her long ago, back with the orcs or whatever), than she'll willingly "volunteer" (with the right hints) to be the first to go through the program to prove it's worth to her loyal subjects!

I get your point, though. In my back. Repeatedly. Ow.

EDIT:
You want evil, I'll give you evil.

Genetically modified Creepers that are 99.999% transparent. Oh and they fly too.

... Creepers? I lament my lack of nerd-fu!
That does sound kind of evil, though!

Aldurin

02-05-2011, 11:15 AM

Given this thread I hope the lawyers of this forum are defense attorneys, since it seems near impossible to pass off as truly evil to you guys.

Pip Boy

02-05-2011, 01:14 PM

Another D&D question: My character is a swashbuckler with both the Improved disarm feat and a great deal of slight of hand. We begin combat, but I have a surprise round before initiative is rolled. I attempt to draw my opponent's weapon instead of my own, pulling it directly out of his own sheath. Is this a disarm attempt or a sleight of hand check? On one hand I want to say sleight of hand because he isn't currently wielding the weapon, Im taking it off of his person. On the other hand, Im not actually trying to be sneaky about it. I don't care if he sees me taking it, I just want it in my hands. What do?

Meister

02-05-2011, 01:39 PM

This would seem to fall under the "Grabbing items" use of Disarm. In fact it seems to be exactly the kind of thing that section's written for:
You can use a disarm action to snatch an item worn by the target. If you want to have the item in your hand, the disarm must be made as an unarmed attack. If the item is poorly secured or otherwise easy to snatch or cut away the attacker gets a +4 bonus. Unlike on a normal disarm attempt, failing the attempt doesn�t allow the defender to attempt to disarm you. This otherwise functions identically to a disarm attempt, as noted above.

You can�t snatch an item that is well secured unless you have pinned the wearer (see Grapple). Even then, the defender gains a +4 bonus on his roll to resist the attempt.
Sleight of Hand doesn't seem to be as good a fit, both because you're not trying to be sneaky about it and because Sleight of Hand seems to be specifically geared towards handling small objects.

DarkDrgon

02-06-2011, 11:51 AM

half on topic, but does anyone know of a good place for pbp 3.X? i used to go on mythweavers, but every time I get seriously into a game there someone in my family gets sick or dies, and I can't handle that right now

tacticslion

02-06-2011, 06:47 PM

Pip Boy - I'm seconding Meister on this one. It sounds exactly like what you want to do. Also: that's an awesome swashbuckler-move to make!

half on topic, but does anyone know of a good place for pbp 3.X? i used to go on mythweavers, but every time I get seriously into a game there someone in my family gets sick or dies, and I can't handle that right now

Drgon... uh, wow. That sounds pretty awful. My recommendation for finding 3.X stuff is Paizo.com (http://paizo.com/pathfinder), as they are the kind of last-bastion of all things 3.X. I think Wizards might still have some of their old stuff, but last time I was on their site it was really difficult to navigate.

Given this thread I hope the lawyers of this forum are defense attorneys, since it seems near impossible to pass off as truly evil to you guys.

Also, Aldurin - I'm not saying it's not evil, I'm just saying I don't know what it is, but given my lack of knowledge, it sounds slightly evil - mostly because of the word "creeper".

Vauron

02-06-2011, 07:21 PM

There is usually quite a few pbp games recruiting on the GitP forums at any point in time. Maybe try there?

Yrcrazypa

02-06-2011, 08:12 PM

Also, Aldurin - I'm not saying it's not evil, I'm just saying I don't know what it is, but given my lack of knowledge, it sounds slightly evil - mostly because of the word "creeper".

That's a nice everything you have there, shame if something happened to it.

Ssssssss...

Aldurin

02-06-2011, 08:49 PM

Also, Aldurin - I'm not saying it's not evil, I'm just saying I don't know what it is, but given my lack of knowledge, it sounds slightly evil - mostly because of the word "creeper".

http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Creeper, then play minecraft and learn to fear it.

tacticslion

02-07-2011, 08:21 AM

That's a nice everything you have there, shame if something happened to it.

Ssssssss...

Not you, Yrcrazypa. The other Creeper - the one Aldurin was talking about!

Also...
http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Creeper, then play minecraft and learn to fear it.

Mhmmmmm. I have been enlightened! That does sound scary!

Also, also: YAY! This has become a general D&D advice thread! I love these!

Professor Smarmiarty

02-07-2011, 09:16 AM

If we're going to go general advice, here's 3 key tips to surviving as a party
1) Stab the rogue- they are basically just evil bards
2) Stab the paladin- they are basically just pompous fighters
3) Stab the monk- cause they will try to get the party locked up with no items just so they can murder everyone
4) Are you still alive? Stab anyone remaining, become an evil cleric, solo the campaign.

Jagos

02-07-2011, 09:30 AM

Play Neutral Good.

Here's the thing. There's a reason an NG Druid is one of the most dangerous alignments in the DnD world. You can be considered "The Pacifier". So long as you can justify your actions, you do everything "for the greater good"

"Those hostages? I killed them because of the unrest they were causing to the village in terms of the ransom money!"

"The one princess? She goes now to the astral plane to find her true self."

" I killed all your people with tangleroots so as not to cause you undue pain and suffering."

Just a thought.

tacticslion

02-07-2011, 09:56 AM

Some hints for surviving a game:
See this
If we're going to go general advice, here's 3 key tips to surviving as a party
1) Stab the rogue- they are basically just evil bards
2) Stab the paladin- they are basically just pompous fighters
3) Stab the monk- cause they will try to get the party locked up with no items just so they can murder everyone
4) Are you still alive? Stab anyone remaining, become an evil cleric, solo the campaign.
and this
Play Neutral Good.

Here's the thing. There's a reason an NG Druid is one of the most dangerous alignments in the DnD world. You can be considered "The Pacifier". So long as you can justify your actions, you do everything "for the greater good"

"Those hostages? I killed them because of the unrest they were causing to the village in terms of the ransom money!"

"The one princess? She goes now to the astral plane to find her true self."

" I killed all your people with tangleroots so as not to cause you undue pain and suffering."

Just a thought.
?

Don't do those. Just a thought.

Professor Smarmiarty

02-07-2011, 09:56 AM

If you're powergaming alignments CN is the way to go. Cause it's pretty strongly, just do what you feel like doing.

And now a special edition
Hints for surviving an SMB game:
Don't take combat skills, they will not be useful.
Like 10% of all "monsters" you kill will be random adventuring parties you run into dungeons so take every monster language you can.
He doesn't plan adventures, merely plots out worlds and runs everything else on the fly so pick an NPC and make his live misery- he will then become your new big bad.
Every gossip and rumour you hear is true in some degree.
Don't play a gnome.
Everybody is good and everybody is evil.
Use broken stuff but only if you can outbreak the DM.
Every NPC is an asshole. Take no mercy. Practical jokes are strongly encouraged.
Never ever play an SMB game.

DarkDrgon

02-07-2011, 10:01 AM

General advice, learned from my players:

Be nice to the bard, don't jump into glowing green water, and NEVER fake your die rolls.

Ryong

02-07-2011, 12:43 PM

From one of the campaigns I've played, based on the Tower of Druaga anime:

Every NPC is either backstabbing you right now or planning to do so at a later date. As soon as the GM makes the NPC not invincible, kill him/her.

From the campaign that takes place in Dark Sun:

If you see a "small creature that resembles a kobold, wrapped in shredded clothes" you run the fuck away. He doesn't miss and does 4d6+4 damage, which is kind of a lot at level 1.

And now, for something I'd like to know:
Anyone here ever play a marauder ranger on 4e? There's a new campaign coming up and I'm planning on going two-blade ranger, but marauder seems like an interesting choice, what with mixing melee and ranged attacks on the run.

Professor Smarmiarty

02-07-2011, 12:50 PM

Every NPC is either backstabbing you right now or planning to do so at a later date. As soon as the GM makes the NPC not invincible, kill him/her.

Before starting campaign check whether you are on the plane of elemental evil??

RobinStarwing

02-07-2011, 12:55 PM

I like the idea of playing Chaotic Neutral but I prefer to play spellcasters. You can have fun playing a mad/greedy/destructive mage who's solution to aggravation is to shock, flambe, etc. their party mates or refer to them as Useful Items.

Shame in D&D we don't get Dragon Slave-type spells....
http://picture.funnycorner.net/funny-pictures/4803/Dragon-slave.jpg

Cause Chaotic Neutrals/Evils could just do this to whole villages for fun and profit!

Ryong

02-07-2011, 01:00 PM

Before starting campaign check whether you are on the plane of elemental evil??

Yeah, probably should've done that.

I mean, the villain got his hands on an ancient super weapon to kill the gods and while preparing it the goddess of love he was trying to kill was shooting...Something at us. It wrecked a lot of cities.

Shame in D&D we don't get Dragon Slave-type spells....

Meteor Swarm, probably. Maybe something epic also works.

RobinStarwing

02-07-2011, 05:21 PM

Meteor Swarm, probably. Maybe something epic also works.

Yeah but the only spells that work in the epic level are Hellball, Cataract of Fire, Necromantic Singularity, and Diluvial Torrent.

I want something that puts a crater in the ground where castles/villages/parts of big cities used to be! I want something like the Sunrest Sunshock!

Professor Smarmiarty

02-07-2011, 05:42 PM

Alter reality should do it.

RobinStarwing

02-07-2011, 05:47 PM

Alter reality should do it.

Bah! Why alter reality when one can destroy it with a single spell? You know, forget Dragon Slave...I want the Giga Slave in D&D!

By the way, if you can get an entire party of the crazy or ill-adjusted to reality along with your Chaotic Neutral, greedy self...you could have a lot of fun.

Nikose Tyris

02-07-2011, 05:59 PM

They're Epic Spells. Make your own.

Professor Smarmiarty

02-07-2011, 06:07 PM

Bah! Why alter reality when one can destroy it with a single spell? You know, forget Dragon Slave...I want the Giga Slave in D&D!

By the way, if you can get an entire party of the crazy or ill-adjusted to reality along with your Chaotic Neutral, greedy self...you could have a lot of fun.

Uh anything your spell can do, alter reality can do and more!
If you're twinking and you ain't got some divine ranks, you're doing it wrong.

RobinStarwing

02-07-2011, 06:15 PM

Uh anything your spell can do, alter reality can do and more!
If you're twinking and you ain't got some divine ranks, you're doing it wrong.

Ever seen Slayers SMB? Giga Slave summons the Dark Lord of all Dark Lords, the Golden Lord of Nightmares from her plane of existence; The Sea of Chaos. With just a thought, she can destroy all creation just on a whim.

Also, Lord-sama is also the creator of all the Gods in Slayers canon as well so she is literally both God and Devil. ^_^

Can your Alter Reality do that?

They're Epic Spells. Make your own.

I'd screw it up and make it too OPed. Though the point of the Dragon Slave is pure overkill...

Professor Smarmiarty

02-07-2011, 06:31 PM

Ever seen Slayers SMB? Giga Slave summons the Dark Lord of all Dark Lords, the Golden Lord of Nightmares from her plane of existence; The Sea of Chaos. With just a thought, she can destroy all creation just on a whim.

Also, Lord-sama is also the creator of all the Gods in Slayers canon as well so she is literally both God and Devil. ^_^

Can your Alter Reality do that?

That's not really a spell now is it?

RobinStarwing

02-07-2011, 06:36 PM

That's not really a spell now is it?

Watch the videos on Youtube and let her explain it herself. After all, she is the Mother of All Darkness who has dreamed years uncounted of regaining her form. Also, power is her mind and her mind is her power; when uncorrupted by other elements, her mind becomes her purest power.

The spell basically kills what which can't be killed as nothing is more powerful than Lord-sama.

There are Arcane spells that do draw power from dieties. This is just taking that to a different level altogether.

Professor Smarmiarty

02-07-2011, 06:48 PM

RobinStarwing

02-07-2011, 07:09 PM

No you see that is some kind of innate power she possesses. Spells can be learnt by everybody.
Also spells follow rules and are inherent from somewhere. If it's just |I can do it cause I'm special not really a spell.
A

Okay let me explain it than for you SMB.

Most spells in Slayers draw power from somewhere. In the case of White/Holy Magic, it's the Gods(Shinzoku) or the Astral Plane (spell dependant). Shamanism draws from the Astral entirely.

Black Magic draws from the Demons/Monsters(Mazoku). The most powerful spell in this block is Dragon Slave, which draws power from Ruby Eye Shabranigdo, The Demon King of the Monsters.

Spells like the Ragna Blade and Giga Slave however draw power from the Lord of Nightmares and are hence, different and defy classification. Literal Entropy unleashed. There is a hint that Fusion Magic (Holy+Black) is a form of Chaos power.

Furthermore, Giga Slave is the mind of the Lord of Nightmares too. The caster has to do a kind of check when casting the Giga Slave or it goes out of control and Lord-sama takes over their body, swallowing their soul/conciousness in a tide of darkness deeper than the deepest night. Lord-Sama is than free to do what she wants...which isn't a good thing.

So technically, the Giga Slave is both Divine and Arcane magic as it draws into our existence the mind and power of a being who is both the God and Devil.

Does that make sense now? Lina doesn't use it much due to how dangerous the spell is. Furthermore, I don't see her ever teaching that spell to anyone unless she knew they would only use it in the worst of situations i.e. Elder Evil unleashed and nothing else can stop it.

Archbio

02-07-2011, 07:11 PM

...Blow up the material plane.

And get spilled phlogiston and bits of crystals all over the Ethereal Plane? You'll never be able to get all of the shards out and someone's going to cut their foot eventually.

RobinStarwing

02-07-2011, 07:52 PM

And get spilled phlogiston and bits of crystals all over the Ethereal Plane? You'll never be able to get all of the shards out and someone's going to cut their foot eventually.

Prime Material Plane is over-rated anyways!:dance:

tacticslion

02-07-2011, 11:32 PM

Okay let me explain it than for you SMB.

Most spells in Slayers draw power from somewhere. In the case of White/Holy Magic, it's the Gods(Shinzoku) or the Astral Plane (spell dependant). Shamanism draws from the Astral entirely.

Black Magic draws from the Demons/Monsters(Mazoku). The most powerful spell in this block is Dragon Slave, which draws power from Ruby Eye Shabranigdo, The Demon King of the Monsters.

Spells like the Ragna Blade and Giga Slave however draw power from the Lord of Nightmares and are hence, different and defy classification. Literal Entropy unleashed. There is a hint that Fusion Magic (Holy+Black) is a form of Chaos power.

Furthermore, Giga Slave is the mind of the Lord of Nightmares too. The caster has to do a kind of check when casting the Giga Slave or it goes out of control and Lord-sama takes over their body, swallowing their soul/conciousness in a tide of darkness deeper than the deepest night. Lord-Sama is than free to do what she wants...which isn't a good thing.

So technically, the Giga Slave is both Divine and Arcane magic as it draws into our existence the mind and power of a being who is both the God and Devil.

Does that make sense now? Lina doesn't use it much due to how dangerous the spell is. Furthermore, I don't see her ever teaching that spell to anyone unless she knew they would only use it in the worst of situations i.e. Elder Evil unleashed and nothing else can stop it.

Actually, this can be done in 3.5 Edition. I've run the simulations and math. It's called an instantaneous infinite damage loop + instant annihilation via a minor (4th level) trick of magic items. Technically, it's only for a particular target, but if you have an infinite number of consecutive turns (without interruption), and an infinite reach, you can do that to all of reality in literally no time, although to you it'd be a successive series of attacks.

ALTernatively, you could just play a 5th level kobold...

ALSO, if you really want that spell badly enough... it's epic magic:create it. Your application of what does and does not work as epic spells isn't true in the slightest. A high enough HD character (roughly 300-or-so) can actually get infinite-range all-consuming spells of limitless power by themselves. Run your own game set in that universe and simply have an epic spell that's insta-kill whatever. Heck, roughly 30-to-40 HD characters can set up epics that allow them to insta-level (within certain limits, "insta-leveling" is kind of a misnomer, as it's more like a year to accomplish), so they can get that 300 HD without too much of a fuss or difficulty.

And... you can always simply take the principles behind the Lina Inverse reality and apply it to your own campaigns. The distinction between divine and arcane would still remain - academically - and even those that "defy classification" can have a label applied (ex: "wild magic" or "chaos magic" or even "classification-defying-magic", the last of which, means, ironically enough, that it's not classification-defying, thus making it a misnomer). Even in Forgotten Realms [3.5] arcane magic is just a form of divine magic that adheres to Mystryl's/Mystra's(/Midnight's) rules of behavior. Nullification stuff and entropy is simply variants of Spheres of Annihilation. So, you can really have it both ways.

FURTHER, if you want it to be available for characters who aren't 300-some-odd HD, you can simply allow them limited access to it (or give compelling plot reason, such as Lina has, to limit its use themselves). This actually fits in quite well with epic magic and it's problems and draw-backs, for lower-level characters.

So, yeah, just make your own!

And get spilled phlogiston and bits of crystals all over the Ethereal Plane? You'll never be able to get all of the shards out and someone's going to cut their foot eventually.

Agh! Second-Edition! The horror! The unmitigated horror!

RobinStarwing

02-07-2011, 11:39 PM

There is a d20 Slayers Book detailing everything up to Season 3. Including Races and all that. IN Slayers world, Gold Dragons get to shoot Lasers from their mouths!

Eltargrim

02-07-2011, 11:49 PM

I am running a Spelljammer campaign as we speak. Ad hoc ahoy!

Ryong

02-07-2011, 11:50 PM

There is a d20 Slayers Book detailing everything up to Season 3. Including Races and all that. IN Slayers world, Gold Dragons get to shoot Lasers from their mouths!

So like Exalted, then?

RobinStarwing

02-07-2011, 11:58 PM

So like Exalted, then?

What'd Exalted? All I know is that Filia looked awesome shooting lasers from her mouth in both Dragon and Human form. ^_^

DarkDrgon

02-08-2011, 12:17 AM

I played one session of Exalted.... i am not a fan. I wish I could get more people to play Paranoia though

Tev

02-08-2011, 09:53 AM

I played one session of Exalted.... i am not a fan. I wish I could get more people to play Paranoia thoughExalted is White Wolf's DBZ setting. I really couldn't much get into it myself either.

Paranoia on the other hand is awesome.

Also, does anyone here know about or play Dread? I'm really quite taken with the game. Its premise is basically to play out a bad SyFy Original movie while playing Jenga to stay alive.

Nikose Tyris

02-08-2011, 10:12 AM

What'd Exalted? All I know is that Filia looked awesome shooting lasers from her mouth in both Dragon and Human form. ^_^

Exalted is a game with spirits, land-based dieties and demi-gods, where you play a demigod in a world that has an intense dislike for you. It's not a bad game, but it's... a restricting game. The world is mostly fleshed out.

Ryong

02-08-2011, 06:49 PM

So, I had a bit of an argument with one of the players in my campaign - not during the actual game, though - about custom monsters. Basically, aside from the first two sessions, I've been making custom monsters. He seems to be annoyed that 1) I won't master the monsters in the books and 2) I will grow attached to them and be angry if they die quickly or some such and then 3) they will not know how to deal with them.

My counters were:
1) I think I can read the monster's role and the blurb on their tactics and figure a way for how the monster is supposed to work.
2) If I flip through the monster manual, looking for a random monster of a specific level and go "Oh dang this thing looks cool, it'll be great." it's the same damn thing. Either way, I'm well-aware that monsters exist to be killed or captured, in the end. If I make a boss, I'm not going to make him so strong that the party dies and everyone has to roll a new character because of poor planning or some such.
3) Bit of OOC there, y'know? I remember reading a quote that was something like:
"The man growls and becomes a 10 feet tall tower of teeth and fur."
"Okay, he's a werewolf in crinos form, hand me the werewolf book to see what's he weak against."
"You die."

What do you guys think?

Yrcrazypa

02-08-2011, 11:59 PM

FURTHER, if you want it to be available for characters who aren't 300-some-odd HD, you can simply allow them limited access to it (or give compelling plot reason, such as Lina has, to limit its use themselves). This actually fits in quite well with epic magic and it's problems and draw-backs, for lower-level characters.
!

You can also just do something called "Chain-Gating Solars." Gate in one Solar, the Solar gates in another, and another, and so on, and they all donate some spell slots to you. Have fun with your "Destroy Everything" spell with a DC of 1! Oh, be sure to watch out for flying books though, the DM will end up doing that.

Meister

02-09-2011, 03:03 AM

He seems to be annoyed that 1) I won't master the monsters in the books and 2) I will grow attached to them and be angry if they die quickly or some such and then 3) they will not know how to deal with them.
1) Why does that annoy him, specifically?
2) Well, that's sort of a legitimate concern - if he's worried about that it might be a good idea to demonstrate, or flat out promise as a DM, that this isn't something you're going to do.
3) That sounds like bullshit because, as you said, the point isn't for players to demonstrate how well you memorized the Monster Manual. Maybe he just thinks your custom monsters are too tough, though, or that their weak points are too hard to figure out on the fly. In that case I'd recommend allowing appropriate Knowledge or other skill checks to gain clues.

Ryong

02-09-2011, 07:19 AM

Professor Smarmiarty

02-09-2011, 07:29 AM

The trick is to use monsters for the MM but weak them so the traditional tactics for fighting those monsters will get the party horrible slaughtered. Good way to weed out the MM memorisers. Though don't go too far or you end up with vampiric sea-trolls.

Nikose Tyris

02-09-2011, 07:54 AM

1) He wants me to be a good DM and apparently by not following the templates and such my battles will not be good, I guess? I'm not exactly sure.
2) I have. I'm not playing against the party, I know monsters are, in the end, to be killed by the party.
3) The party includes a twink warlock whose attacks go through the monsters HP like a sword goes through butter. The fighter has been dropping quite a lot, but it's only because the cleric's player either doesn't show up half of the time or is too scatter-brained. It doesn't help that the fighter doesn't have the HP or defenses to back up his marks, even against normal monsters. At least they always have a bunch of potions 'cause they've spent around three weeks now on a ship, so the cleric got busy making them. Also: I've been using the monster builder, which has some guidelines on average damage and stuff. I have been making knowledge checks - arcana/nature/religion/history depending on monster - to let the party find out about them.

You're doing things right, and your one player is a weenie.

If you'd like you can tell him I called him a weenie. I would also stick my tongue out at him.

Recommendation:
The Spelleater [From Dragon Magic page 119] eats magic; any spell cast at it that fails to overcome it's spell resistance makes it stronger.

Eldritch Blast is subject to spell resistance. That's a biggie to use to fuck with him. Jack up a spelleater's resistance [Draconomicon feat, "Awaken Spell Resistance", stacks], dropping Improved Natural attack/Improved Critical/Weapon Focus with it's Bite. Should make it a decent 'threat' without an overabundance of damage output, and encourage the warlock and Cleric to tactic the thing alongside the fighter.

Justifications:

- Dragon Magic isn't a book in everyone's collection; Also not part of the standard memorization packet.
- Spelleaters are dragons, but sure as hell don't look or act like dragons. Harder for a twink to jump to conclusions.
- Swapping out feats to jack it's spell resistance weaken it's primary natural attack- but with a new attack strength of +26/2d8+10/x2 on it's bite, it's still going to wittle the party down.
-First spell it resists should power it's "Magic Dampening" field, giving it a further +2 on it's effective spell resistance [It actually reduces opponents CL by 2, but the effect works out the same]

Ryong

02-09-2011, 08:00 AM

I forgot to mention ( again ): I'm playing 4ed. Feel free to tell me that it sucks. The warlock is rendered useless if a monster shows up close to him, but the party isn't dumb and goes help him. It's happened a few times already.

Also: I can use monsters from monster manual 2 or 3 and he won't know about them since he only has the first book!

Nikose Tyris

02-09-2011, 08:02 AM

Ah, disregard everything I said then. Meister's the one for advice on 4e.

Professor Smarmiarty

02-09-2011, 08:03 AM

*Obligatory* 4th ed is for posers! *obligatory*

Meister

02-09-2011, 08:07 AM

Yeah, sounds like you're doing everything right and your player is just an assclown, then. Congratulations!

The fact that this is happening in 4E makes his complaint even more baffling because PCs are inherently designed to be good at fighting monsters. For players there's not a whole lot to be gained from knowing monster stats by heart. An entirely misguided feeling of superiority, I guess. On an unrelated note what the hell is your fighter doing, I thought they were more or less impossible to screw up. :wtf:

e: MM3 monsters are always a good idea, especially for a party with one or two optimized characters because between MM2 and 3, they updated the basic monster design math in order to make for shorter but harder fights.

Ryong

02-09-2011, 08:28 AM

I don't know the stats on the fighter, but he uses hide armor and has no shield, so his defenses are rather low, making it very rare for something to miss him. Not sure he has much HP, either. I guess he's not high level enough for the full range of crazy resources for a fighter to be undying, though ( like, my 14 fighter in a campaign we ended the other day was able to restore HP equal to like 7 healing surges in an encounter as a daily thing, not to mention regeneration and stuff ).

RobinStarwing

02-09-2011, 06:21 PM

You can also just do something called "Chain-Gating Solars." Gate in one Solar, the Solar gates in another, and another, and so on, and they all donate some spell slots to you. Have fun with your "Destroy Everything" spell with a DC of 1! Oh, be sure to watch out for flying books though, the DM will end up doing that.

Now where's the fun in that? At least Lina can use her Talismans to boost her power by calling on all four Dark Lords (Ruby Eye Shabranigdu, Dark Star Dugradigdu, Chaotic Blue, and Death Fog) and cast the spell without risk of messing up.

Also, again, successful casting just means the target of the Giga Slave gets to bite the Non-Existence Bullet. Losing control just means you become a vessel for the Lord of Nightmares and she gets to do whatever the hell she wants for however long she wants to. So it is not a Destroy Everything spell unless LoN decides she wants to destroy that part of the Prime Material Plane and than it just ceases to exist, sinking back into the primodial chaos.

DarkDrgon

02-09-2011, 07:10 PM

he uses hide armor.

Thats the problem. As far as I know anyway, I haven't played Fourth ed yet (doing an intro adventure at my FLGS soon though, I'll post my thoughts), but in 3.X you want as good an AC as possible as a fighter. leave damage to the casters, you are a shield to tie up anyone going after your casters, or the person sent to kill theirs. Either way you NEED to be able to take a punch.

tacticslion

02-09-2011, 07:54 PM

Thats the problem. As far as I know anyway, I haven't played Fourth ed yet (doing an intro adventure at my FLGS soon though, I'll post my thoughts), but in 3.X you want as good an AC as possible as a fighter. leave damage to the casters, you are a shield to tie up anyone going after your casters, or the person sent to kill theirs. Either way you NEED to be able to take a punch.

I'm playing 4E
That's your proble-.
*Obligatory* 4th ed is for posers! *obligatory*
Oh, dag nab it, ninja'd.

Actually 4E (while not my preferred) isn't bad, but I do have an dilly of a time with 4E monsters, as I always seem to lose one player's character - as in one per adventure, even especially when I use the pre-published stats. Meister doesn't seem to have that problem (and probably blames the character deaths on me, from what I can read into his posts {I swear, I only give the monsters PC classes after they survive the first encounter! Stop judging meeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!*}), so I guess he's fine. But really, why doesn't your fighter have that many hit points? Also: GIVE HIM BETTER ARMOR. In 4E Hides okay, until you get something better, but you really should be able to get something better pretty quickly. When you award treasure, award Fighter treasure as better armors and damage-soakers, instead of damage-dealers. If he still won't take the hint, oh well - it's all on him.

You can also just do something called "Chain-Gating Solars." Gate in one Solar, the Solar gates in another, and another, and so on, and they all donate some spell slots to you. Have fun with your "Destroy Everything" spell with a DC of 1! Oh, be sure to watch out for flying books though, the DM will end up doing that.

In addition to Robin's counter-point, why, pray-tell, would the solars help you destroy reality? I mean, if you're in the (nine) hells, or the abyss, or something similar, yeah, I could see that, but otherwise, I really don't think they'd be all for it.

Now where's the fun in that? At least Lina can use her Talismans to boost her power by calling on all four Dark Lords (Ruby Eye Shabranigdu, Dark Star Dugradigdu, Chaotic Blue, and Death Fog) and cast the spell without risk of messing up.

Also, again, successful casting just means the target of the Giga Slave gets to bite the Non-Existence Bullet. Losing control just means you become a vessel for the Lord of Nightmares and she gets to do whatever the hell she wants for however long she wants to. So it is not a Destroy Everything spell unless LoN decides she wants to destroy that part of the Prime Material Plane and than it just ceases to exist, sinking back into the primodial chaos.

So, basically she's just got the 4th level infinite-damage attack trick with a chance of possession by a nether demon. Cool.

*This, in no way, represents how Meister really feels. Probably. Maybe.

Professor Smarmiarty

02-09-2011, 08:21 PM

In addition to Robin's counter-point, why, pray-tell, would the solars help you destroy reality? I mean, if you're in the (nine) hells, or the abyss, or something similar, yeah, I could see that, but otherwise, I really don't think they'd be all for it.

Solars are massively anal-retentive. If you don't have some kind of bard or rogue who can convince them that he world needs destroying you're not much of a party.

RobinStarwing

02-09-2011, 08:24 PM

Thats the problem. As far as I know anyway, I haven't played Fourth ed yet (doing an intro adventure at my FLGS soon though, I'll post my thoughts), but in 3.X you want as good an AC as possible as a fighter. leave damage to the casters, you are a shield to tie up anyone going after your casters, or the person sent to kill theirs. Either way you NEED to be able to take a punch.

Yeah, no matter what you are playing RP wise...Mages will ALWAYS be the best Damage Dealers.

Um, SMB, Tacts...if you want an idea of how powerful this spell is...watch the clips of it on Youtube.

Oh and Lord of Nightmares is not a Nether Demon. Both the races of Demons and Gods in Slayers can trace back to her. Also, think of what she does as a kind of disintegration damage or something as the target does pretty much cease to continue to exist.

To quote

The Lord of Nightmares (Japanese: ????? Golden Devil, nickname L? L-sama, LON, true name Lucifer[1] Runic: ???????????????[2][3]) is the creator and essence of the four worlds described and chronicled in Slayers and Lost Universe. When she takes human form, it is usually in the body of a young, blonde-haired woman. She is neither a mazoku nor a shinzoku, and cannot be classified into such narrow terms. In Slayers NEXT she is voiced by Megumi Hayashibara in Japanese and by Lisa Ortiz in English.

Her true form is the Sea of Chaos, an infinite golden lagoon made of chaos, or nothingness.

The Lord of Nightmares is omniscient, as everything in the worlds are made of her. In an interview with the Mega Brand Project in BLASTER!, Hajime Kanzaka stated that the Lord of Nightmares wants the worlds to be destroyed and returned to the Sea of Chaos. According to him, this is because she feels lonely and wants them to be a part of her again. In truth, the Lord of Nightmares did not knowingly create the worlds; they were suddenly there, spawned from her without her consent. However, this statement of Kanzaka's appears to contradict the Lord of Nightmares' behavior in the last episode of NEXT, as well as the manga version of the same storyline. On the other hand, given the somewhat joking tone of the comment, it is quite possible that he was being facetious about the Lord of Nightmare's loneliness.

She is not capable of being injured or destroyed, as nothing could ever be more powerful than her.

In short...she is basically existence itself or phlogiston kind of.

Basically, the Giga Slave is the kind of spell you use when a DM is being a bastard and sending an Elder Evil at you that can't be destroyed normally because it's so powerful and you really want to fuck up the DM's game.

tacticslion

02-09-2011, 10:57 PM

Oh and Lord of Nightmares is not a Nether Demon. Both the races of Demons and Gods in Slayers can trace back to her. Bad choice of words on my part - I just mean it in the semantic sense rather than the literal "nether demon" sense. In other words - she's a baddie, and an uber-evil you don't want to mess with 'cause, oops, she might just decide "whatever I hate you and will undo everything you've ever loved". I just use "nether-demon" as that general all-purpose loathing given life (or even potential loathing, not necessarily inherently actual loathing - she might not even care, really, it's irrelevant, as everything is wiped out).

Also, think of what she does as a kind of disintegration damage or something as the target does pretty much cease to continue to exist.
...
Basically, the Giga Slave is the kind of spell you use when a DM is being a bastard and sending an Elder Evil at you that can't be destroyed because it's so powerful and you really want to fuck up the DM's game. I actually really did get it. Infinite damage instantly. I'm nonchalant about it, but yeah, I get the point. But seriously. Being a fourth level character and being able to deal instant damage is about the same level of "sucks to be GM in THIS game!" as what you're describing. I mean, Lina Inverse is pretty typical of Anime power-levels, honestly. "Oh, noes, the nasty bad is going to destroy the village/town/city/country/moon/planet/solar system/galaxy/cluster*/super cluster*/universe/omniverse with a power that is unbeatable by all and cannot be stopped by any means known to man!" is fairly standard as well as outlandish levels of power (Sailor Moon and DBZ were the first to introduce me to this concept, but it's really rather common). Lina Inverse does it in a clever and interesting way, has a neat spin on it, and is unique, but the idea of instant non-existance is no longer that surprising. And, once it's been done in-game, I kinda start treating it as "old hat", whether it is or not.

Really, the secret to DnD falls into this: change the description.
Call a "fireball" an "Expanse of Void", change the damage type to cold, and you've got an all-new spell with a nifty new concept. If you then make a back-story about how this (and/or all spells/some spells/whatever) are really the "Void Between the Stars" (or "What Lurks Between" or "Whatever") trying to alter the universe to suit itself, than bam, you've got a whole "new" game, couched in different tones, but that does the same thing, mechanically. Burning Hands? It would become "Ripple of Night" or something. You could do this with minimal effort, accomplish the exact same game-effect, and make a really cool-looking/sounding world/story/setting/etc. This is true in 3.X or in 4E - either way, it's all on how you spin it**.

In short...she is basically existence itself or phlogiston kind of.
... Yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeesssss, but you've also indicated her freedom would be a Bad Thing, so I'd say Existence, in Lina Inverse is kind of a jerk, and should probably get some good therapy.

Solars are massively anal-retentive. If you don't have some kind of bard or rogue who can convince them that he world needs destroying you're not much of a party.

Smarty, I don't mean to tell you how to or how not to play your pretend elves and make-believe and all, but: You're Doing It Wrong. Ahem:
Your Music Is Games Are Bad and You Should Feel Bad.ARCHONS*** are anal, not Angels (the category that Solars fall into). Sheesh, at least get your nomenclature right!

*To be fair, I've never actually seen an anime threaten either of these two directly - it usually skips straight to the universe and/or omniverse.
**That said, to me 3.X lets you actually do more, and have more consistent rules for the universe and all within it than 4E.
***It's funny - they change absolutely everything about the connotation AND denotation of Archon from 3.X to 4E, EXCEPT the fact that all arcons are anal. That's actually a fun alliteration: "All Archons Are Anal". Also, I'm anal. Like Smarty's FACE (mildly)!

RobinStarwing

02-09-2011, 11:04 PM

Tacts> You can't quantify and label the Lord of Nightmares as Uber-Evil or anything like that. She is just Chaos itself, not motivated by Good or Evil. Lord-sama can as easily do something good if she is allowed free as much as evil. I would say she is a True Neutral or Chaotic Neutral being.

Hell, she doesn't destroy the world when Hellmaster Fibirizo sets her free by interrupting the Giga Slave. She just destroys the little freak and decides to take Lina Inverse as sacrifice/etc. but than releases and reforms her when Gourry goes after her.

tacticslion

02-10-2011, 12:12 AM

Stuff about the quantifiable properties of that which is unquantifiable.

The thing is, if something exists, a given person will come up with a way to describe it relatively accurately, even if it's pure chaos (although that word, I admit, doesn't actually denotate what we usually use it to mean). The thing is, all that exists - the pure random chance - is not a good thing to set free. It might do something nice, it might not. It doesn't matter to her/it, because she/it doesn't really care about anything other than her/its own whims. This is an inherently selfish thing.

Can't label? Semantics aside, yes, you can label anything that exists and many things that don't. "Blue" isn't a true property of the universe. It's an adjective-word that represents the fact that there is a set of light waves that, along certain frequencies, interact with our eyes in a manner such that most of them create a recognizable spectrum of color-perception allowing us to label what we think we witness. "Blue" doesn't exist, but we have a label for it. Just because we can't really fathom all the fine details of what goes on for us to see "blue" (or even see for that matter) doesn't mean we can't quantify and label it. Go ahead, hand me one "Blue" - it doesn't work. Blue is, instead, a range, a set, a large collection of similarities according to our perceptive abilities. Even if she/it would be beyond the scope of our understanding, we can still label and quantify the heck out of her/it. Would it be entirely accurate? Nah. But would it work for us in daily (or whatever) life? Yes. And that's the point. Nobody actually wants LoN free (except, perhaps, LoN). Ergo, it's a Bad Thing (tm). Thus the whole "Big Bad" comment. I'm not saying that any label applied will be entirely accurate. But the fact that she/it has descriptive names means that she/it's been labeled.

Point being, it's fine if you reject the label that I give it, but to tell anyone that anything is beyond labeling means only that a) it's never been thought of or b) you're wrong. Now, if you want to argue that the labels cannot encompass all that the thing being labeled actually is or that labels may very well be meaningless in the over-all scheme of things, well, you're right. But we as a species label the ever-living crap out of stuff. It's what we do. That's kind of an inherent part of our sentience. Thus, if someone comes up* with something that can't be labeled, we'll label it something, even if that label is "that thing that can't be labeled outside of this very labeling of it, which isn't very descriptive or accurate, really, sorry about that"**. It's not that LoN is being reduced in any way by the act of us labeling her/it - the labeling is simply sentience doing it's thing. I've been through the whole "can't label/describe/understand" things route in philosophy stuffs, and, really, that's a load of hogwash. It sounds profound, but is a fallacy (similar to the idea light can't exist without dark, or good without evil, and vice versa). Heck, I've gone over this very debate for various games, books, movies, and the like from both perspectives. It sounds convincing, it just isn't valid thinking.

ANYhoo, now that this thread has been TOTALLY threadjacked out of DnD advice (through my own fault, partially), here's some: a nymph makes an awfully powerful druid/sorcerer mystic theurge. I mean ouch. Don't tick her off. (On a vaguely related note, don't give her a cursed belt of gender alteration that also causes the wearer to take penalties to their fortitude saves. He'll be mighty mad at you later, I guarantee it. No, it doesn't matter that he was once evil, but now is good by way of that same belt. He will still probably kill you. Twice. Not that I have any experience with that sort of thing, of course. Really. Really.)

ALSO: if you want more intelligence, wisdom, and charisma than most published or conceived-of gods***** from your first level of existence onward******, you need four things: the Awaken spell; the feats Intensify spell, Maximize Spell, and Empower Spells; a one-use power stone with the Mind Seed power in it; a Thought Bottle; and a plant. Step 1: Use the Thought Bottle to Store yourself. Step 2: Use all the feats in conjunction with the Awaken spell (can be accomplished pre-epic levels by the afore-mentioned Solar-spamming trick, amongst many, many others) on any given shrub or tree. Step 3: get that awakened tree to use Mind Seed on you, wait a week, and when you become it (with a 54 in all your mental ability scores) then use said Thought Bottle to retrieve your mind/memories/class abilities/everything (but keep your shiny new ability scores) - the it that is you will wish to do this, because it will undertake tasks for you until the next time you use Awaken. If you target the right size tree, this will (prior to using the Thought Bottle to restore you to yourself) set you as a level 1 (or level 0) character with those ability scores. When you are restored, you'll have your increases placed where they were placed before, which might boost those scores higher.

*This does presume that the thing in question is something that someone invented somewhere along the way, like the authors of Lina Inverse. That said, it doesn't matter - if we become aware of it, we'll label it in some manner that is useful for us when referring to it.
**This will, of course, eventually be shortened to "tttcblootvloiwivdoarsat", which will be shortened to "3tcbl2otvloiwivdoarsat" which will eventually be reduced to "3t" which will eventually be reduced to "threet" which will eventually be mistranslated as "threat" and that's what everyone will take it as, which, for all functional purposes, is accurate.****
****It's worth noting that I thought of a far less family-friendly (but slightly funnier) joke at first. This forum is corrupting me.
*****There are a few with 55's or a bit higher in these scores. You can right this injustice of not being the greatest mind to ever exist by simply wish-spamming templates upon yourself. Fun fact: highest divine ability score (without artificial item-enhancement) is 55. And that's only in one score (highest I've ever seen, anyway, my knowledge is, by it's very nature, limited); the highest of all is a 98 (strength artificially doubled by way of Thor's belt).
******This is slightly misleading - you are actually rebuilding your character from whatever level you gain the ability to use a modified Awaken on, which, for careful/pointlessly powergaming players of kobolds, is fifth level. Or, if your an elf in Eberron, is fourth. Or, if you use stupid luck-of-die rolls and are a human commoner with a slight disposition toward evil and no care about your soul's final fate, is 1st. Not that I know from experience.

Professor Smarmiarty

02-10-2011, 04:27 AM

Smarty, I don't mean to tell you how to or how not to play your pretend elves and make-believe and all, but: You're Doing It Wrong. Ahem:
ARCHONS*** are anal, not Angels (the category that Solars fall into). Sheesh, at least get your nomenclature right!

But Solars are skinheads!

Meister

02-10-2011, 04:30 AM

RobinStarwing

02-11-2011, 12:43 AM

Sorry guys. I got carried away in a discussion. ^_^ But yes, Q&A is good.

Edit: Which reminds me as I've got some questions.

First off, what is Alter Reality spell-wise? I know about Wish/Miracle but not that one.

Second, I am roleplaying some DnD FR canon stuff from 3.x on an RP and would like some info on the full abilities of the Dragonsoul Heir and what it says in the manual.

Third and is related to the second; how is a Homonculi made in the Forgotten Realms? Is there any information on them in regards to that? I know the Alchemy crap but not the Magical stuff for making one.

tacticslion

02-12-2011, 11:36 AM

Anyway: can we focus this thread more on Q&A and go easy on the theoretical infinite damage loops and ways to gain infinite power even before character creation, and also keep the off-topic stuff to PMs?
But... but... I never actually talked (directly) about infinite damage loops! :( Also: sorry and yes, sir. :)

Sorry guys. I got carried away in a discussion. ^_^ But yes, Q&A is good. You're forgiven! ;)

Edit: Which reminds me as I've got some questions.

First off, what is Alter Reality spell-wise? I know about Wish/Miracle but not that one. It's not a spell. It's a divine supernatural/spell-like ability that all deities worth any shred of the title "deity" have access to (prereqs: 6 divine ranks, charisma score of 29). If you took wish and miracle and made them better, that'd be Alter Reality. Effectively, any spell at all at will (I forget whether it's a standard or full-round action) with a "cool-down" period of 1 round per spell-level activated - no XP cost or anything. A deity can apply any feats to the spell they want (it only increases the cool-down period, it doesn't count against the 9th-level spell "limit"), though they can't shorten the activation time, meaning "quicken spell" is useless (though the "quicken spell-like ability" feat should work just fine), and they can do a whole host of other things that mortal magic can't (creation of artifacts, causing temporary effects to be permanent or vice versa, etc). It's basically the "I win" button of the game. Logistically, the only reason there's more than one deity in any DnD world is that more than one deity gained this ability at the same time and they've all been constantly using to annul each others' uses of that ability.

Second, I am roleplaying some DnD FR canon stuff from 3.x on an RP and would like some info on the full abilities of the Dragonsoul Heir and what it says in the manual.

Third and is related to the second; how is a Homonculi made in the Forgotten Realms? Is there any information on them in regards to that? I know the Alchemy crap but not the Magical stuff for making one.

Well, any homunculus is made the exact same way, regardless of the world you're in. In addition to the "alchemical stuff" {50 gold worth of clay, ashes, mandrake root, spring water, one pint of the creator's own blood; DC 12 craft (pottery) check} the body must then be animated through an "extended magical ritual" that, according the MM, requires "a specially prepared laboratory or workroom similar to an alchemist's laboratory and costing 500 gold to establish". If you make the body (the craft check) you can also do the ritual at the same time. To make it, you need Craft Consturct (feat), and the spells arcane eye, mirror image, mending, and at least a 4th caster level. It costs 1,050 gold, and 78 XP. All this stuff creates a standard homunculus with 2 HD, as found in the MM pg 154. If you want more HD, each HD after the first costs an extra 2,000 gold. If you want a different homunculus, I can give you the different kinds of homunculi found in the back of the Eberron Campaign Setting*.

Before this conversation, as far as I knew, a Dragon-Soul Heir, was only a 4E paragon path**. Now, a dragon-soul heir, as I understand it, from reading the Forgotten Realms Wiki (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Dragonsoul_heir), you're actually going to be either a half-dragon***, or a dragon-disciple*** prestige class? 'Cause a that's easy to find in any DMG (or the pathfinder Core Rulebook). Are you playing 3.0, 3.5, or Pathfinder variants of the 3.X, because those do change the progression you gain your stuff at, slightly. I have access to the latter two (3.5 and Pathfinder), but perhaps someone here has access to the former (3.0). The specifics in the wiki are for 4th edition stuff, although the bottom paragraph gives a decent idea about what Dragon Disciples gain by the end. If you want more specifics, I can look them up for you, I just need to know which (3.5 or Pathfinder) you're using.

* Although these are, technically, in a setting-specific book, the reality is that any of them can be created and applied anywhere with no damage to the setting, unless it specifically has a prohibition on constructs, which the Fogotten Realms does not.
** Paragon Paths are the 4E answer to 3.X Prestige Classes, only you automatically take one at 11th level through 20th level - it's actually part of your base class. The only place I'd heard of Dragon Soul Heir from prior to this was 4E. It could be that your GM is using 4E terms for a 3.X game, which is fine - it does sound more poetic.
*** Some definitions (as I don't know how much you know)
>>A "Half-Dragon" isn't necessarily literally half dragon. It's a template granted either by parentage (in which case the title is fairly accurate) or by powerful magic (in which case the title is not accurate) - it effectively grants a character a number of innate special abilities related to the creature type it references in the title. Therefore, it could easily be renamed "dragon-soul heir" or whatever and still be just as accurate (possibly more so). These special abilities are just part and parcel of the creature itself, not based on class or level.
>>A "Dragon Disciple" is a prestige class. Once you gain enough skills and abilities (specifically ranks in the spellcraft skill and the language draconic), you can, instead of progressing as a bard, sorcerer, or other spontaneous caster, progress in this prestige class. As "dragon disciple" has nothing to do with actually being a disciple of any dragon, and everything to do with being the heir of a dragon ancestor's abilities, it could easily be renamed "dragon soul heir" to be more accurate.
>>A "Draconic" creature is yet another, weaker template that grants a few abilities similar to a half-dragon, but which is less potent and grants no energy-related benefits.

RobinStarwing

02-12-2011, 02:28 PM

Well, any homunculus is made the exact same way, regardless of the world you're in. In addition to the "alchemical stuff" {50 gold worth of clay, ashes, mandrake root, spring water, one pint of the creator's own blood; DC 12 craft (pottery) check} the body must then be animated through an "extended magical ritual" that, according the MM, requires "a specially prepared laboratory or workroom similar to an alchemist's laboratory and costing 500 gold to establish". If you make the body (the craft check) you can also do the ritual at the same time. To make it, you need Craft Consturct (feat), and the spells arcane eye, mirror image, mending, and at least a 4th caster level. It costs 1,050 gold, and 78 XP. All this stuff creates a standard homunculus with 2 HD, as found in the MM pg 154. If you want more HD, each HD after the first costs an extra 2,000 gold. If you want a different homunculus, I can give you the different kinds of homunculi found in the back of the Eberron Campaign Setting*.

Before this conversation, as far as I knew, a Dragon-Soul Heir, was only a 4E paragon path**. Now, a dragon-soul heir, as I understand it, from reading the Forgotten Realms Wiki (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Dragonsoul_heir), you're actually going to be either a half-dragon***, or a dragon-disciple*** prestige class? 'Cause a that's easy to find in any DMG (or the pathfinder Core Rulebook). Are you playing 3.0, 3.5, or Pathfinder variants of the 3.X, because those do change the progression you gain your stuff at, slightly. I have access to the latter two (3.5 and Pathfinder), but perhaps someone here has access to the former (3.0). The specifics in the wiki are for 4th edition stuff, although the bottom paragraph gives a decent idea about what Dragon Disciples gain by the end. If you want more specifics, I can look them up for you, I just need to know which (3.5 or Pathfinder) you're using.

* Although these are, technically, in a setting-specific book, the reality is that any of them can be created and applied anywhere with no damage to the setting, unless it specifically has a prohibition on constructs, which the Fogotten Realms does not.
** Paragon Paths are the 4E answer to 3.X Prestige Classes, only you automatically take one at 11th level through 20th level - it's actually part of your base class. The only place I'd heard of Dragon Soul Heir from prior to this was 4E. It could be that your GM is using 4E terms for a 3.X game, which is fine - it does sound more poetic.
*** Some definitions (as I don't know how much you know)
>>A "Half-Dragon" isn't necessarily literally half dragon. It's a template granted either by parentage (in which case the title is fairly accurate) or by powerful magic (in which case the title is not accurate) - it effectively grants a character a number of innate special abilities related to the creature type it references in the title. Therefore, it could easily be renamed "dragon-soul heir" or whatever and still be just as accurate (possibly more so). These special abilities are just part and parcel of the creature itself, not based on class or level.
>>A "Dragon Disciple" is a prestige class. Once you gain enough skills and abilities (specifically ranks in the spellcraft skill and the language draconic), you can, instead of progressing as a bard, sorcerer, or other spontaneous caster, progress in this prestige class. As "dragon disciple" has nothing to do with actually being a disciple of any dragon, and everything to do with being the heir of a dragon ancestor's abilities, it could easily be renamed "dragon soul heir" to be more accurate.
>>A "Draconic" creature is yet another, weaker template that grants a few abilities similar to a half-dragon, but which is less potent and grants no energy-related benefits.

3.5 Forgotten Realms is what I am using as the RP is a Multiverse one with anime, book, etc. universes. The Character actually came out of Neverwinter Nights and has been boned up over the years as I learn more and get more info on DnD.

When I meant Alchemical, I was talking Philosopher's Stone. From what you said, it sounds like one isn't neccesarily needed in the DnD.

tacticslion

02-13-2011, 04:40 PM

3.5 Forgotten Realms is what I am using as the RP is a Multiverse one with anime, book, etc. universes. The Character actually came out of Neverwinter Nights and has been boned up over the years as I learn more and get more info on DnD.

When I meant Alchemical, I was talking Philosopher's Stone. From what you said, it sounds like one isn't neccesarily needed in the DnD.

No, there's no Philosopher's Stone necessary in DnD (a Philosopher's Stone is, in fact, a very rare, potent, and potentially campaign-crashing lesser artifact that alters lead into gold, tin into silver, and/or raises the dead - each of these can happen once only with a Philosopher's Stone). If, by my inference of you using anime and requiring a P-Stone for homunculi, you're thinking of Full Metal Alchemist-style Homunculi, then you're kind of barking up the wrong tree, I'm afraid. FMA-stuff is substantially more powerful than anything DnD talks about in reference to Homunculi. I'd recommend FMA-style Homs be treated more like genies (sans wish-granting) or elder elementals and para-elementals (roughly 15-16 HD) combined with weird undead-like traits rather than as the tiny constructs with 2 HD presented in the Monster Manual.

In DnD a homunculus is a tiny, winged, fantastically ugly (unless the creator makes very skilled crafting checks, in which case it can look like whatever the crafter wishes) little familiar-like creature bound to it's creator (presumed you). It isn't actually a familiar, but grants many similar benefits - you can have both a familiar and a homunculus (or many homunculi) at the same time. Homunculi don't grant the creature bonus to saves or skills that familiars grant, and don't improve in power as familiars do over time, however.

As this is your game, however, you can declare the things called "homunculi" in the monster manual to instead be named "caster's clay" or something, and redefine "homunculus" as whatever you'd like, as mentioned above.

As far as the creation of a Dragonsoul Heir goes, I'd recommend one out of the two most likely routes: specifically, I'd recommend the template more than the prestige. For 3.5, Sorcerers are very simple - just give them their spell-progression and you're good. If your group doesn't mind templates, having the half-dragon template is the easiest (by far) way to make things happen, as you don't have to worry with prestige classes, interpretations over bonus spells, and varying hit dice and such. The downside to the template is the staggering level-adjustment (+3), and the fact that the tremendous strength bonus (+8) mostly goes to waste, given a sorcerer's terrible base attack bonus. You'll also - despite the +2 to constitution - be vulnerable, due to the d4 HD. That said, the template is, comparatively (in my opinion) the easiest and most straight-forward of the two routes.

If you go the prestige route, be advised your spell-progression will effectively stop while you prestige (crippling the sorcerer's abilities), but you'll get a d12 for HD in those levels (meaning more hit points, over-all), an intermediate base attack bonus (better for you to hit with), and good fortitude saves (in addition to your good will saves) for the length of your dabbling. Basically, the Dragon Disciple prestige class grants you the half-dragon template by the end of it, only working in about seven "bonus spells" (a highly debatable term, let me tell you from experience), no level adjustment, and granting ten levels of d12 hit dice, good fortitude, and intermediate base attack bonus in exchange for spell-casting progression that is the hallmark of a sorcerer.

As a note, you can't actually go both routes - if you're a half-dragon, that gives you the dragon sub-type, and no creature with a dragon sub-type can pursue the Dragon Disciple prestige class. If you've played Neverwinter Nights, you know what a Dragon Disciple gets. A Half-dragon gets the exact same thing. The only difference between an PnP game and Neverwinter is that a) you can select any one energy element (and corresponding dragon type) as your breath weapon/energy immunity, instead of only fire (and red dragon); and b) when you get wings you can fly (60 feet, clumsy maneuverability).

Finally, if you have a bard (or any spontaneous arcane spell-casting class, including a Beguiler, Duskblade, Warmage, or Hexblade to name a few), you can also be a dragon disciple, however I'd still recommend the template over the prestige class, as the bard (or whatever) actually gets most things that a DD prestige class would grant anyway, all without sacrificing your class benefits. With the template, you don't actually need to be a spontaneous casting class, though it helps.

I'm presuming, however, that you're a sorcerer, what with your talk of making homunculi. You can be any spell-caster, and don't actually have to have any spell-casting ability, so long as you gain a scroll or some other spell-casting item (that you can use) to imitate the spell-casting requirements. You do have to be the one "casting" (or using the items to create) the homunculus, or else it doesn't work, I believe - I don't think you can just hire a caster, though I could be wrong. Also, if you like, you could just say it does work that way (or talk your GM into agreeing that it does work that way) and you're good to go.

EDIT:
Robin,

I responded to your PM. I hope it's what you need, but I asked a lot of questions for specifics. If you don't need more than what I gave, we're cool. If you do, then you can answer the questions and get back to me.