"Dragon Age II" or "Seil Won't Stop Badgering On About Dragon Age!"

[Seil]

Release Date: March 8, 2011

http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100818202403/dragonage/images/6/6f/Qunari-trailer.png

Yeah, yeah - but it's been a while since I found such an involving game. That being said, DA2 (http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Dragon_Age_Wiki) seems to have stripped away a few things from DA:O - most notably, the origin mission things, seeing as how the new protagonist - Hawke - has his own story. And I thought the origins stories were a nice touch, even though I inevitably ended up playing Human Mage every time. Also, almost all of your original companions are gone. I guess that makes sense. New protagonist, new companions. Everybody had something to do at the end of the first game.

Well, except for Ohgren, but who really likes Oghren?

Anyways, most of this is made up for by this. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jlACgYHtWCI) Is it a staff with a sword on the end or a sword with a staff on the end? I don't know but it's totally awesome. Also, Infamous bit where moral choices (I guess) seem to alter your physical appearance and the Qunari apparently have horns now. (http://thepunchlineismachismo.com/archives/410) Oh, and that one chick in DA:O - Isabella (http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Isabela) - the one who taught you the Duelist specialization is going to be one of your companions.

Anyway - I'm kinda curious to see the plot of DA2, as the whole of DA:O was to gather up a whole bunch of people to defeat the army, and Awakening was about defeating a different army, who's left to fight in DA2?

EDIT Now that I see it, I regret not pulling a "FUCK SHIT WUAAGH!"

[Kim]

LadyHawke looks much cooler than DudeBroHawke. I wish all the trailers featured her.

[natowarhead]

Is it a staff with a sword on the end or a sword with a staff on the end? I don't know but it's totally awesome.

I think I just had a nerdgasm.

[Aldurin]

I need to get myself into the DA series, probably starting with this.

[Krylo]

LadyHawke looks much cooler than DudeBroHawke. I wish all the trailers featured her.

I haven't seen any trailers with LadyHawke?

[Seil]

You mean Bethany? (http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Bethany_Hawke)

[Krylo]

Well, Bethany does look pretty cool, but I think Nonsie was talking about the female version of the PC.

[Kim]

http://i53.tinypic.com/21dr8zb.jpg

Don't think she's had any trailers, but she looks vastly more interesting than ManHawke.

[Krylo]

Well, obviously. She already has her own movie (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4CiQvE2cA2Y&playnext=1&list=PL154F8AFECA4F469E).

[Solid Snake]

...Am I the only one who prefers male Hawke if only because I'm sick and tired of every single female protagonist in gaming looking unrealistically and stereotypically sexyhawt when they're supposed to be the best, most experienced, and most badass warrior / rogue / mage in the land?

At least Mass Effect's default femShep looked kind of plain, this girl looks smokin', while the guy at least looks a more reasonable portrayal of an experienced dude who's not pinup early-20-something Beefcake.

It'd be cool to play like a default model that's a 35 year old female who actually looked and sounded thirty five, wasn't smokin', got by with her intellect and her brawn, is all I'm sayin'.

(And yes, I know we can change default appearances, but if Mass Effect is any indication, looks aside from the defaults will suck anyway, and there won't be significant variants.)
</opinion>

[Krylo]

...Am I the only one who prefers male Hawke if only because I'm sick and tired of every single female protagonist in gaming looking unrealistically and stereotypically sexyhawt when they're supposed to be the best, most experienced, and most badass warrior / rogue / mage in the land? I dunno. She's got kind of a manjaw. And I can't tell how muscley she is.

She looks cool, not sexyhawt, in my opinion.

(And yes, I know we can change default appearances, but if Mass Effect is any indication, looks aside from the defaults will suck anyway, and there won't be significant variants.)
</opinion>You take that back. My custom FemShep is fucking awesome and I will goddamn cut you if you say different.

[Solid Snake]

I dunno. She's got kind of a manjaw. And I can't tell how muscley she is.

She looks cool, not sexyhawt, in my opinion.

...If that girl approaches me at a bar, tomboyish or not, she is instantly one of the most attractive girls at that bar. I'm Facebook friends with hundreds of women in their 20s and I would not rate many of them above her. She may not be a blonde supermodel like Samus in the new Metroid (Christ was that catastrophic) but she's still far, far better looking than an average or prototypical girl her age, and she looks far younger than maleHawke too.

It probably doesn't help that I actually do find tomboyish girls very attractive, but simply tossing short hair and a more reasonable body weight on a smokin' hot girl doesn't make her any less smokin' hot. I hope there are decent custom builds I could try that feel more realistic.

My custom FemShep is fucking awesome and I will goddamn cut you if you say different.

Custom femSheps that I've seen were fairly cool but they were all almost universally quite good looking. Tomboyish, perhaps, in the same way that femHawke is "tomboyish," but still very hot. All those that are not attractive are like hideously ugly, there is no middle ground.

And with the exception of the Mass Effect 2 John Locke from LOST fluke that somehow came out looking totally badass, I haven't seen a single custom manShep worth playing over the default. Unless you want like a joke playthrough with the ugliest man alive.

[Kim]

...Am I the only one who prefers male Hawke if only because I'm sick and tired of every single female protagonist in gaming looking unrealistically and stereotypically sexyhawt when they're supposed to be the best, most experienced, and most badass warrior / rogue / mage in the land?

I guess you're right. Every version of Bioware protagonists that gets used in trailers being a boring-as-hell looking white man is far superior to having an attractive woman fighting. Being serious for a moment, both characters were designed from a male perspective. Acting like the female one doesn't make sense because she isn't ~big and strong~ enough is kinda ridiculous. Honestly, I think she looks cool. Her short hair is attractive, but makes sense. She's got a scar across the front of her face which gives her the look of having an interesting backstory, and that she actually fights things. Mass Effect and Dragon Age are series that focus on character customization. You think they'd use this to their advantage in their advertising a bit more.

[Krylo]

There's always ObamaShep.

Edit: I don't think that's a scar. Hawke has this tendency to rub blood or something on his/her face.

Edit2: I hope they let me give her scars, though. My Femsheps in ME1 all had scars, and they'd have them in ME2, as well, if not for the fact that they aren't all renegade.

[Solid Snake]

I guess you're right. Every version of Bioware protagonists that gets used in trailers being a boring-as-hell looking white man is far superior to having an attractive woman fighting.

Let's not contort my message into suggesting that I prefer playing as a "white man" for any subtextual racist or sexist reason, because that is exactly not the message I'm actually trying to make and you know it.

[Krylo]

Isn't there a shooter coming out with a chick whose got like a-b cups and kind of a muscley body and stuff? She's still really attractive, but the game's producer was a woman and SHE designed her, and didn't let the dudes on the team make her all tits mcslut.

Can't remember the name of the game now... it's the one where you get points for stylish kills and shit.

Edit: Bulletstorm (http://techland.time.com/2010/10/14/origins-tanya-jessen-lead-producer-on-bulletstorm/4/)

[Kim]

I was trying to draw attention to the fact that you complaining about her appearance, as though that was in some way offensive, ignores the more numerous ways the marketing team's Hawke/Shepard is offensive. An attractive female protagonist is better than no female protagonist, and I honestly think the only reason ManHawke isn't attractive is because 1. The marketing team doesn't know what they're doing and 2. They're marketing to dudebros.

[Krylo]

I was trying to draw attention to the fact that you complaining about her appearance, as though that was in some way offensive, ignores the more numerous ways the marketing team's Hawke/Shepard is offensive. An attractive female protagonist is better than no female protagonist, and I honestly think the only reason ManHawke isn't attractive is because 1. The marketing team doesn't know what they're doing and 2. They're marketing to dudebros.

I dunno, I think he's kind of good looking.

[Kim]

I'm prejudiced against beards.

Being serious for a moment: Actually just found a decent picture of him. Okay, he doesn't look that bad. Other pic I saw of him before didn't look very good. I dunno. I like SheHawke better still.

[Krylo]

It's a Riker beard, though.

Actually he kinda just looks like a medieval (http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100818202405/dragonage/images/8/88/Hawke2.png) Riker. (http://jc1701.com/johnathanfrakes_as_riker2_x.jpg)

Admittedly, Frakes has better skin.

[Kim]

Whyyyyy you so pale, Hawke?

Why you so pale?

[Krylo]

Probably for the same reason he can carve shit into his arm, make his eyes glow red, and summon giant flaming gauntlets from the nether.

[Solid Snake]

An attractive female protagonist is better than no female protagonist, and I honestly think the only reason ManHawke isn't attractive is because 1. The marketing team doesn't know what they're doing and 2. They're marketing to dudebros.

Agreed, but the argument that "an attractive female protagonist is better than no female protagonist" does not negate the fact that a more realistic female protagonist would be ideal and better (certainly at least in my view) than either. I mean I'm making the exact kind of feminist-style argument about female representation in gaming that I've heard you made before in other contexts, so I'm surprised to hear you rankle from it, even if you disagree in the specific context of this game because you happen to think this femHawke is a realistic portrayal or "at least better than Samus" or something.

The fact that Bioware is marketing to dudebros without actually realizing that gamers are not exclusively dudebros is part of the point. Forgetting about the female gamers for a sec, there's still plenty of male gamers like me who'd prefer the more realistic portrayal over the alternative, even if it meant staring at an average 35-year old femHawke with wisps of grey hair, a wrinkle or two and battle scars.

Sure, it'd also be great if more video games (including possibly a Bioware title like Dragon Age) had a black or Asian default lead, just like it'd be great to play a game with an LGBT lead, etc. But that's all irrelevant to the point I was making.

[Kim]

Probably for the same reason he can carve shit into his arm, make his eyes glow red, and summon giant flaming gauntlets from the nether.

Is he an Edward Cullen?

[Krylo]

just like it'd be great to play a game with an LGBT lead, etc. But that's all irrelevant to the point I was making.

My femsheps are also this. Also some of my male DA dudes, and exactly one FemWarden. Leliaaannnna fuuuuck offff and diiiiie.

Well, ok, one romanced Kaiden. But fuck* all the not-Garrus male romances in ME2.

*Rhetorically speaking, of course.


Edit@Nonsie: Yes.

[Kim]

@Snake: Everything I've seen of LadyHawke, admittedly not much since I haven't been keeping up with this game, makes her look like a badass. She kills monsters and doesn't afraid of anything. Maybe I missed some obscure trailer wherein LadyHawke cries about her feelings, but given Bioware's track record that seems unlikely. So, we've got a strong, female protagonist. That's how she's written. Writing > Appearance, assuming they don't have her in a bikini. They don't. My complaint was that she hasn't really been seen in the trailers, and I'd actually be more interested in seeing her in the trailers than I would ManHawke. You countered with "She's not realistic."

1. Video game characters aren't realistic.

2. ManHawke's not a bad looking guy, upon seeing not-shitty pictures of him. He's not super handsome, but aside from being an Edward Cullen, he looks decent. I don't see any scars or gray whisps of hair on him. I don't see any wrinkles.

It seems like you're asking for LadyHawke to be more "realistic" than even MaleHawke actually is for the advertising and trailers to focus on her, which I think is silly. Even under the reasoning of whether it's offensive or not for all female protagonists to be attractive, the simple fact is that there are plenty of female gamers who are feeling excluded because the marketing has a hardon for DudebroHawke. I talk to gamers like this regularly. They love SheHawke. They're even feminist. It stands to reason that while we should be open to non-attractive protagonists, an idea I fully support, asking that the female character be more "realistic" than the male character before you'll accept her seems a tad ridonkulous.

[Solid Snake]

My femsheps are also this. Also some of my male DA dudes, and exactly one FemWarden.

Given the nature of the Asari as an alien species in Mass Effect, is it really appropriate to label those relationships as "lesbian relationships," though? Asari look female to humans, but I'm not sure they could be called female. And it seems like in the Mass Effect universe, that even heterosexual women might somehow find Asari attractive due to their...pheromone...thing.

...Chalk this up to something the game really didn't explain to me in a way I adequately understand.

But yeah Bioware does a slightly better job with the LGBT thing than most other companies out there, just looking at their track record, though a couple of their LGBT options felt rather tacked on. As much as I wanted to attempt a playthrough with a gay male warden I hated Zevran even more than you appear to despise Leliana.

And what LGBT options were available in Mass Effect 2? It's been a while but I don't really remember any unless you stayed loyal to Liara. That was too bad as I do explicitly remember thinking to myself that I'd have totally chosen Garrus with a maleShep, that was how much I preferred Garrus over every new ME2 female love interest that wasn't Tali.

[Krylo]

Hey, Zev was awesome. All charming and witty and slippin' daggers into people's spleens.

Lelianna was totally Kelly (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wCF3ywukQYA).

Edit: Yeah, there weren't any LGBT options in ME2 other than staying faithful to Liara. It was kind of a big THING on the bioware forums, to be honest.

[Kim]

Asari don't count but they do. It's complicated.

Zevran was awesome. Shame the sex scenes are too awkward to watch in that game.

[Krylo]

I'd say they count on the basis that their crazy neurochemicals don't work on the players.

Edit: Speaking of which! Morinth and Kelly romances for FemShep. Totally two right there. Granted, neither really count for achievements and one kills you, but hey!

[Kim]

I'd say they count on the basis that their crazy neurochemicals don't work on the players.

Well, what people keep telling me is that Bioware, or at least some people at Bioware, kept saying it wasn't actually lesbianism because they weren't actually female, under some bizarre claim that the Asari were non-gendered. When ME2 came out they finally conceded the point that yes the Asari are women Goddammit. If any of this is incorrect, my bad. Got all this info second-hand because I don't pay enough attention to stuff. So, the idea is that in ME1 under Bioware's bizarre Asari-aren't-female claim there technically was a lesbian romance but Bioware didn't earn any inclusiveness points for it.

EDIT: Oh yeah, heard about the Kelly one for FemShep. That counts.

[Krylo]

Well, what people keep telling me is that Bioware, or at least some people at Bioware, kept saying it wasn't actually lesbianism because they weren't actually female, under some bizarre claim that the Asari were non-gendered. When ME2 came out they finally conceded the point that yes the Asari are women Goddammit. If any of this is incorrect, my bad. Got all this info second-hand because I don't pay enough attention to stuff. So, the idea is that in ME1 under Bioware's bizarre Asari-aren't-female claim there technically was a lesbian romance but Bioware didn't earn any inclusiveness points for it.

Nah, that's all true, but what really happened was that Bioware decided between ME1 and ME2 that Shepard wasn't gay, and it was their character and fuck you, and then people were like "Uh, Liara?" and they were like "Shit! Uh uh uh Doesn't count!" And then people were like, "Fuck you, I want my shep to be gay" and welp.

We'll see if ME3 lets me make Mark Meer gargle Garrus's Dextro-Sperm.

[Solid Snake]

1. Video game characters aren't realistic.

I'd argue that's just something that should change, perhaps not explicitly in regards to Dragon Age 2 as a specific game in and of itself, but moreso as an industry-wide standard. The fact that "video game characters aren't realistic" isn't much of an argument, it's a statement that you can either find acceptable or find fault with.

I talk to gamers like this regularly. They love SheHawke. They're even feminist.

Well, first, unrelated to the rest: I'd still argue that SheHawke is younger and considerably better looking than maleHawke, but I think we should be able to agree to disagree on that one without butting heads and calling each other's opinions "ridiculous." I've been careful to word my objection to SheHawke as just my opinion, after all. Not making some grandiose statement against my second favorite videogame producer.

It feels kind of like the message here, however inadvertent or unintentional, is that essentially as a heterosexual white male I'm kind of damned if I do and damned if I don't?

Is the idea here that as a heterosexual white male I cannot only argue that something isn't sexist / racist / homophobic (due to latent normative biases) but I also cannot argue that something is institutionally sexist, racist, or homophobic if someone who is female, a minority, or gay happens to disagree with me? Not even trying to be snarky here, just trying to understand your perspective.

It seems like there should be some objective truth in play here, but if the message to heterosexual white men is "you're not invited to the discussion because any opinion you'll have can by default carry no weight, regardless of what you are for or against," then it feels less like I'm invited to actually learn about racism, sexism or homophobia and participate in progressive change, and more like this is a process and a conversation I'm just automatically excluded from any ability to initiate dialogue with by virtue of my own race, gender and sexuality.

So seriously, no snark, one hundred percent serious inquiry: Are you of the opinion that a heterosexual white man could not, as a default rule, actually identify circumstances of institutional racism, sexism, or homophobia? Will I need a certain threshold of friends in said minority groups to point out such instances, as any inferences I would derive would automatically be illegitimate by nature of its source?

[Krylo]

I don't think he's saying you're wrong because you're a dude what likes girls, so much as trying to say maybe you're being a little over sensitive to the issue, considering the people the issue actually affects, actually like the character.

[Kim]

EDIT: What Krylo said.

On an unrelated note, if I can't gaysex Garrus in ME3 I will cry pure tears of black liquid sorrow.

[Azisien]

Are we talking realistic female* character like...Hammer from Fable 2? I mean that WAS pretty awesome. The super-strong female that makes Gears of War characters look like famine survivors.

*Nothing I have seen regarding FemHawke leads me to believe she's not portrayed well, as far as video game characters are ever portrayed.

[Kim]

Hammer was the awesomest.

[Solid Snake]

I don't think he's saying you're wrong because you're a dude what likes girls, so much as trying to say maybe you're being a little over sensitive to the issue, considering the people the issue actually affects, actually like the character.

Hah, under-sensitive one year and over-sensitive the next. Never just right.

I think I've reached a point where I should purposely avoid discussions on topics of feminism, minority groups, and LGBT issues less because I'm uninterested or a bigot or something and more because it's apparently a mode of intellectual analysis with rules and a code of conduct that appears to totally escape and confound me. Maybe it's something akin to foreign languages (I've always struggled with those), just a subject matter with a terminology and internal logic that I'll never quite fathom or feel fully comfortable with.

Aside over, back to Dragon Age 2: Does anyone know how our decisions from Origins and/or Awakening actually effect DA2? I've completed three origins playthroughs (two mages and a rogue) but haven't even begun an Awakening (or Witch Hunt) playthrough yet and I'm debating whether it's worthwhile to do so.

EDIT: Before you potentially misinterpret that statement, NonCon, know that I am reacting less specifically to your statements in this context of this thread and more generically to the notion that in the past few months I've been accused more than once of over-sensitivity to issues like how gays were under-represented or treated differentially in other fictional contexts. It's not the first time I've heard a similar refrain. So not a reaction to your statements specifically. Moreso a reflection on how I'm still not "getting it," even though I appear to fallen on the opposite side of the spectrum, enough so that a self-professed LGBT member of the MSPA forums community pulled me aside last month via PM and basically said "I appreciate what I think you're attempting to do, but you're doing it all wrong." Which is weird given that a few months before that I was often accused of being excessively hetero-normative.

[Kim]

The thing with the feminism thing and whatnot is that there's actually a lot of internal debate and a lot of people don't seem to realize that. From an outsider perspective it all looks like on big group, but some groups dislike others, there are feminist groups with their own problems in terms of accepting others, etc etc etc. In fact, that there is that debate is actually one great thing about it. I like that I can read a feminist article that I think is completely batshit, talk to a bunch of feminists about all my problems with it, including ones that bug me from a feminist perspective, and they'll agree with me. If they don't agree with me, either some good debate is had and that's always good, or my mind is changed on the subject, and I'm smarter for having participated in the discussion.

[Krylo]

I wouldn't call Hammer realistic by any stretch. Women don't get that large naturally thanks to differences in hormone levels (edit: hell, most men don't). Miss universe types tend to take anabolic steroids or more legal versions of testosterone as well as other drugs, and practice a very specific mass building regime. Which is why even champion Ms. Olympias (like Lenda Murray) are actually considerably smaller than Hammer.

I would like to see more Gina Carranos than Kate Moss+implants though.

Edit: Or Christie Cyborg, if you want someone who doesn't have off season modeling pics all over google images as well as the MMA pics.

[Kim]

Yeah, I never thought Hammer was more realistic than any other character in the game. I just thought she was awesome.

[Solid Snake]

NonCon, your comments have led me to realize that the most likely explanation for my recent phenomena is probably simply that I lack the time, energy and resources to master what is almost certainly a very broad and very complex set of subject matters. You introduced me to some of the basic materials and I'm thankful for it, as I've had the opportunity to learn much over time, but it seems like I've fallen into the pitfall of knowing just enough facts to recognize that institutional racism, sexism, and hetero-normativity exist, but I still don't know nearly enough to make educated judgments on where and how they manifest themselves, so instead of under-stating prospective issues I'm over-stating them. My over-analytical nature requires I often make mountains out of molehills by habit, only now instead of hyper-actively criticizing these issues I've just fallen into the exact opposite trap of hyper-actively raising them.

That all made infinitely more sense when the thought occurred to me in light-bulb illuminating thought bubble fashion than it just did on paper.

Maybe I just need to be content with the fact that I'll be a go-to guy at places like NPF for legal advice on contracts and whatnot, but I'll never quite be that guy who's going to be able to accurately and masterfully understand the complexities of these separate yet intertwined minority movements. Which is unfortunate, because I have that personality type where I really wish I could say I was very smart and knew everything and was a go-to guy for smart stuff, but maybe I just need to learn to be more modest.

This is my very long-winded way of apologizing to you because upon having this epiphany I felt its ramifications merited an overdue apology.

...Or maybe I'm still over-analyzing everything now.

Long aside over, seriously, back to the infinitely more interesting issue of slaughtering darkspawn.

[Krylo]

Also, just for the record:
http://cdn0.sbnation.com/fan_shot_images/42823/b7kqbt.gif

That woman is 28 years old, and makes her living beating the shit out of other people.

You know, just on the 'is LadyHawke realistic' question.

Edit: or here's the top female MMA fighters. Only Amanda Buckner is all 'manish' or whatever. (http://blog.ronin5.com/top-female-mma-fighters/)

[Azisien]

I wouldn't call Hammer realistic by any stretch. Women don't get that large naturally thanks to differences in hormone levels (edit: hell, most men don't). Miss universe types tend to take anabolic steroids or more legal versions of testosterone as well as other drugs, and practice a very specific mass building regime. Which is why even champion Ms. Olympias (like Lenda Murray) are actually considerably smaller than Hammer.

Yeah that's true the level of testostero--MAGGIIICCCCCCCCC

[Krylo]

To be fair, the ridiculousness is why all my characters were mostly gunners/mages, 'cause even the giant muscley dudes you got with max strength just seemed like they'd lose too much range of motion to fight properly.

[Solid Snake]

...So just to clarify, the Hawke wielding the sword-staff device in the trailer is actually a mage?!?

...That is strange insofar as based on my Dragon Age: Origins experience I really thought the one class that least needed to gain entire new skillsets were the Mages. Seriously, if you're telling me Mages can cast all the spells and fight in Melee with swords and without Arcane Warrior specialization investment, who the heck is going to play as a Warrior?

[Krylo]

It seems like the Hawke in all the trailers (except the classes trailer, which obviously has all three) is a mage, so maybe that's what they expect?

Still though, Rogue4Lyfe.

[greed]

Does anyone know how our decisions from Origins and/or Awakening actually effect DA2? I've completed three origins playthroughs (two mages and a rogue) but haven't even begun an Awakening (or Witch Hunt) playthrough yet and I'm debating whether it's worthwhile to do so.

From what I understand they don't. You pick one of three outcomes at the start of DA2 which from memory are
BIG ENDGAME DAO SPOILERS

- self sacrificing Elven Warden (Kanye: David Gaider hates wood elves) who leaves Alistair as king with a dead Loghain and imprisoned Anora
- Human Warden who goes through with Morrigan's plan and becomes king, marrying Anora and I forget Alistair's fate
- hardass Dwarven Noble Warden who executes Alistair, sacrifices Loghain and leaves the surface of Ferelden a fucking mess as he goes back to a golem armed and organised Orzammar to rule and plot further fucking over of humanity.


I wouldn't call Hammer realistic by any stretch. Women don't get that large naturally thanks to differences in hormone levels (edit: hell, most men don't). Miss universe types tend to take anabolic steroids or more legal versions of testosterone as well as other drugs, and practice a very specific mass building regime. Which is why even champion Ms. Olympias (like Lenda Murray) are actually considerably smaller than Hammer.

I would like to see more Gina Carranos than Kate Moss+implants though.

Miss/Mr Universe selects more for muscle tone and appearance than actual strength. Women weight lifters and the like are often of a build like Hammer's. I remember I was for some reason watching the Commonwealth Games or the Olympics a while back and the women's weightlifting came on and the Australian looked eerily like Hammer. On the other hand the next girl up was a Samoan woman who looked like a sumo wrestler and after that a weight lifter who had a fairly lithe build, but with huge biceps and leg muscles(who looked if nothing else like a white Chun Li with bigger arms. Basically strength can show itself in a whole range of different ways. It sucks that there's a bias towards conventional attractiveness in video games and while that is present for men too it is worse for women. However Bioware seems okay about it by industry standards LadyHawke seems fine and Aveline actually does look pretty tough from the last art/screens I saw, which is ahead of the curve.

[Solid Snake]

From what I understand they don't. You pick one of three outcomes at the start of DA2 which from memory are
BIG ENDGAME DAO SPOILERS

...Wait, wait, wait.

...They don't let you import your Dragon Age: Origins file?
...So...

...I've played through Dragon Age: Origins multiple times and created multiple files for no reason?!?

...If that is true I am so disappointed.
Also confused as to why I immediately assumed importing would be an option.
Maybe Mass Effect rubbed off on me.

[Krylo]

Nah, Greed is full of shit (http://www.joystiq.com/2010/10/06/dragon-age-2-will-import-the-world-from-dragon-age-origins-sa/).

He's just talkin' about what happens if you start a new game without previous saves. Like the shitty choices ME2 gives you.

Import was announced around August.

[Solid Snake]

Oh, thank heavens. I wasted far too much time with Origins to lose out on the impact of my decisions.

Back to my original question then: Does anyone know what additional decisions made in Awakening and/or Witch Hunt might transfer into DAII and thus, whether an Awakening / Witch Hunt playthrough is a good idea with one of my completed Origins characters before starting DA2?

I'm actually confused as to the logistics with the PS3 version of DA:O. Let's say I have a completed DA:O save, and then I import that save into Awakening and beat Awakening. When I get DA2, do I only have to import the Awakening character? My decisions from Origins will also be transferred? So ideally, what's most important for me to save are the saves once I've completed Witch Hunt? (And I'm supposed to complete Awakening before Witch Hunt? Or does the order matter?)

Oy. Importing is confusing.

[greed]

Nah, Greed is full of shit (http://www.joystiq.com/2010/10/06/dragon-age-2-will-import-the-world-from-dragon-age-origins-sa/).

He's just talkin' about what happens if you start a new game without previous saves. Like the shitty choices ME2 gives you.

Import was announced around August.

Ah, cool. Glad I heard wrong there.

[Krylo]

Anders is in DA2, so Awakenings will probably matter to some degree, at least in so far as he is concerned.

Edit: Canonically Witch Hunt happens after Awakenings. But I don't think it's going to matter what order you do them in, and I kinda doubt Witch Hunt will have any effect. No matter what you do the Warden supposedly disappears eventually after Awakenings, so disappearing in Witch Hunt isn't an issue canonically, neither is sticking around (you just disappear in some other way).

[Kim]

I liked Dragon Age, but I don't think I like it enough to play it again, let alone do a completionist run. Shame.

[Solid Snake]

Anders is in DA2, so Awakenings will probably matter to some degree, at least in so far as he is concerned.

Edit: Canonically Witch Hunt happens after Awakenings. But I don't think it's going to matter what order you do them in, and I kinda doubt Witch Hunt will have any effect.

Hmm. Okay. How long is Awakening, and is it an enjoyable experience compared to Origins? I might try to cram in a playthrough with one of my Origins characters (probably my rogue) before starting DA2. I was just worried as my favorite characters' roles all appear to be minimized and ignored in Awakening and Oghren -- not my personal favorite -- is the one returning star. It didn't sound appealing at first.

...It occurs to me that the importing issue is also probably a bitch from Bioware's perspective. What happens if someone tries to import a file of an Awakening playthrough with an Orlesian Warden? I wonder if you get generic Origins choices plus the choices you made in Awakening. What if someone skips Awakening, plays Witch Hunt, and then tries to import an Origins + Witch Hunt file? What if the Warden sacrificed him/herself in Origins but was "revived" in Awakening, will DA2 report him or her as dead or alive?
...Oy. The potential number of combinations would be staggering for Bioware to painstakingly accommodate.

[Krylo]

It's a pretty decent continuation. Easy as fuck. Has some good parts, some bad parts. I'd say over all it's not as good as Origins, but if you already have it, it's certainly worth playing.

Mostly because of Nathaniel Howe and Anders.

[greed]

It's a pretty decent continuation. Easy as fuck. Has some good parts, some bad parts. I'd say over all it's not as good as Origins, but if you already have it, it's certainly worth playing.

Mostly because of Nathaniel Howe and Anders.

Personally I liked Justice too. Am a little worried about how well he and Anders in the same body will work though.

Edit: I also really like that the ANIME as fuck elf dude is voiced by the same guy as Balthier, doing his Balthier voice. So there's at least one good thing about him (well other than that he seems to be riffing off Elric of Melribone, which I mean if you're gonna be based on something, being based on something obscure and unusual is a start at least).

[Krylo]

Also, you guys might like this: Part 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRQzl5u5oeQ) and Part 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6BlDtbXW3o4).

Demo gameplay up to about ten minutes past the tutorial. I'm going to agree with DFM in that I like how they framed the story with Varric telling it, and pay attention to Bethany's rack before and after Varric stops lying.

P.S. LadyHawke is awesome.

[Marc v4.0]

Gina Caranos

I think I'm in love

Still, I will play DudeManHawke and not LadyWomanHawke because I can identify with and understand DudeManProblems easier then LadyWomanProblems

edit:

And with the exception of the Mass Effect 2 John Locke from LOST fluke that somehow came out looking totally badass, I haven't seen a single custom manShep worth playing over the default. Unless you want like a joke playthrough with the ugliest man alive.

There's always ObamaShep.


http://dl.dropbox.com/u/4549162/obamashep2.jpg

[Bells]

Ok alright... the game looks gorgeous, the voice acting is quite nice, the story seems Biowareish and all... that's all fine, but i just got annoyed after seeing that first fight in the game.

You beat a wave of same-enemies using 2 types of 3-4 hit combos over and over again, untill a bigger version of the enemies show up, he has horns, a ramming attack a ground pound, a ton of health is slow and you have to dodge his attacks and pound him from behidn while he recovers, all the while dealing with another wave of the smaller ones.....

...And within 3 minutes of game these are regarded as "scouts"....

So, right of the bat i'll leave my "fuck you" to this game, but i WILL see more of it because i'm dumb enough to look a book past it's cover and Bioware has surplus with me, so i think it's uphill from here.

[Seil]

Say what you want about Lelianna, I thought she was pretty rad - though Morigan was better, I'll admit.. I like my girls a little girly. Also, her bisexuality makes sense for her story, travelling spy/assassin in an over-indulgent nation. That being said, I didn't like Zevran. He had some funny lines, and he was at the point where he sided against Taliessen with me, but he seemed a stereotype.

If you're looking for eye candy for girls, well... there's Alistair. (http://www.gamespot.com/xbox360/rpg/dragonage/show_msgs.php?topic_id=m-1-52228497&pid=950918) Sten is pretty big, too. (http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/920668-dragon-age-origins/52573104) Obviously one is hetero and the other isn't an option, but hey - mods.

That being said, female protagonists. The ones I can name off the top of my head are:

Faith - Mirrors Edge
Lara Croft - Tomb Raider
Bayonetta - Bayonetta
Heather - Silent Hill 3

...List time: List of female video game characters. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Female_video_game_characters) Huh - Alyx Vance was pretty neat. I'll go back to Heather as an alight person, too.

[Kim]

I'm not particularly sure what aspect of Zevran was stereotypical, at least from a pop culture standpoint.

[Seil]

Amoral sex maniac leather fetishist with a lewd sense of humour? You could take aspects from that and find them in all sorts of movie characters, game characters or wherever. He's just not that interesting.

Oh, and Demi Moore as a strong female protagonist. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQg28Qwmaro)

[Kim]

Except his character actually develops so that he ends up falling in love, and I think he even gets morals.

[Seil]

You're supposed to romance him a bit to get to that point, and I just didn't want to bother with it. I mean,

Morrigan is dark and sultry

Lelianna is girly and talks about shoes and is a member of the Chantry but whips out swords to deal with guards before you recruit her

Alistair is pretty adorable, he's got the lovable goof thing going on

Zevran tries to kill you, fails, immediately turns on his former employer and stays with you so you can protect him from the Crows.

[Kim]

Morrigan's also a devout follower of the teachings of Ayn Rand.

[Solid Snake]

Morrigan's also a devout follower of the teachings of Ayn Rand.

...So the fact that I deeply preferred Leliana over Morrigan either says something about my changing political beliefs, or says I automatically gravitate towards redheads, or says I have terrible taste in women.

Depending on who you ask.
But yeah I can't stand Morrigan for some reason. Morrigan, Zevran, and Oghren -- like, at least a third of the DA:O recruit-able cast -- are all thoroughly unlikable characters in my book. And yet despite my subjective feelings on them I still like DA:O well enough overall, which says great things about Bioware's ability to write I suppose.

...Also, Shale, Sten, and Alistair more than made up for the others.

[Kim]

I liked Oghren and Zevran, mostly because I liked flirting with the latter. I can't recall why I liked the former. Morrigan is awesome simply for when you have her and Alistair in your team at the same time. Best thing about DA was the in-party banter.

[Seil]

Morrigan was lived in the woods and was taught by a demon/abomination raising her for the sole purpose of stealing her body and living for a few more years. And then, in the end of the game, she reveals that what she really wants... is to be loved. She still ditches you in the end, though.

And then, in Witch Hunt, your character finds Morrigan, reconcile, and you leave to help raise your god-baby together.

Also, Solid Snake. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-Lg1Uw3Gqo)

ON TOPIC - for anyone who's wondering, in DA2, the reason you play as a mage is because you are one. The backstory is that you and your family are apostates. The sword/staff weapon is, I imagine, just there to grant the option to play as a Warrior.

[Kim]

Right, because Zevran doesn't have his own backstory to explain his leather fetish, amorality, and love of sex. Only Morrigan's backstory justifies her actions. :/

[Seil]

The point of the game was to make me interested in Zevran enough to want to persue him as a love interest. I'm not saying that I don't like him as a character, despite evidence to the contrary, but I just don't feel attracted enough to his character to romance him.

Morrigan is dark and seductive, but there's a few lines early on - like the bit with Flemeth when Morrigan tells her to watch the stew so that she doesn't return to a burned down hut, that bits of goodness shine through. And as you start to get her to come out of her shell it's kinda cool. Even her random conversations, like talking with Sten about Qunari lovemaking come off as cute and teasing.

Alternatively, Zevran is a pretty decent guy who got a bum deal in life - like most of the elves in DA:O - he's still got a few quirks that just turn me off.

But yeah I can't stand Morrigan for some reason. Morrigan, Zevran, and Oghren -- like, at least a third of the DA:O recruit-able cast -- are all thoroughly unlikable characters in my book. And yet despite my subjective feelings on them I still like DA:O well enough overall, which says great things about Bioware's ability to write I suppose.

EDIT Morrigan and Zevran are pretty okay people in my book - Morrigan grew up in Flemeth's care, after all, and her personality reflect that. But if you can coax her out of her shell she's a pretty neat chick. Zevran, like I said above, is alright, but he's constantly talking about sex and his ideas on the whole murder for profit thing rub me the wrong way.

Oghren (Ohgren?) is understandable, seeing as how he started off as a rough-and-tumble kind of a guy - he is a berserker. He married a talented girl whose work overshadowed him, and then started in on the Anvil of the Void, taking the whole house to find it, leaving him. At this point, he loses his honour/caste/whatever when he (as a Berserker, mind you) kills so-and-so's son in a duel. Oghren does care for Branka though, as when she fails to return, he demands that the city look for her in the Deep Roads, and falls back to the pub when they refuse. Two years later, you show up, go with him to search for Branka - where Oghren is overjoyed to see her, then despaired to see how the obsession of the Anvil has consumed her - "I remember marrying a woman who you could talk to for one minute and see her brilliance!" - her romance with Hespith, her uncaring nature towards her fellow dwarves - dwarves of her house, that she let be turned into Broodmothers so they could birth Darkspawn for Caridins traps... Then being forced to kill her - as I did - and realizing that he's lost everything; his wife, his house, his honour as a warrior - deciding to abandon Orzammar and go to the surface with you.

That's why Oghren drinks all the time. It's not that he's an arse, he's just depressed and tries to mask it all.

Rise To Power Trailer (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITz7j8x8Xik&feature=fvwrel)
Destiny Trailer (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jlACgYHtWCI)
Champion Trailer (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1opbwMDcnuE)
Ser Isaac Of Clarke Trailer (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_eF70AMfrA)
The Exiled Prince DLC Trailer (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YAMkzz0hKww&feature=relmfu)

[Marc v4.0]

I have to say that Zev's insistance of his personality on every situation drove me off of him quite a bit.

[Solid Snake]

EDIT: Shit how did that double-post happen.

[Solid Snake]

And then, in Witch Hunt, your character finds Morrigan, reconcile, and you leave to help raise your god-baby together.

I imagine that only happens if you romantically pursue Morrigan and go for the god-baby option. Which I never did, and never will.

I do feel like Morrigan and Zevran both have depth, I just don't subjectively like their depth. There's a huge difference between arguing that characters are objectively horrible and subjectively, well, not likable, in your opinion.

With Zevran, I just felt like there were a lot of stereotypes with his character. I did appreciate his bluntness and his honesty, I mean it was refreshing that he wasn't closeted or anything. But it felt like, honestly, if you had asked me during the height of my anti-alternative sexuality paranoia to list stereotypical traits I assumed of bisexual men, you'd basically end up with Zevran. And I'd just love to see a bisexual male character who...well...isn't exactly the kind of character society would intuitively label as "bisexual" without a second glance. It'd be nice, in other words, if sexuality was considered a completely separate trait from personality, because one's sexuality really does have comparatively little to do with whether someone is happy or sad or a goofball or a badass or religious or atheistic.

In other words, it'd be really cool if you took a character like Alistair or Garrus or Auron or Cloud and made one of them bisexual or gay. That'd feel a bit more original and interesting to me.

[Seil]

Snake. Hey, Snake. You might find this interesting. (http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/extra-credits/2520-Sexual-Diversity)

[Krylo]

Ok alright... the game looks gorgeous, the voice acting is quite nice, the story seems Biowareish and all... that's all fine, but i just got annoyed after seeing that first fight in the game.

You beat a wave of same-enemies using 2 types of 3-4 hit combos over and over again, untill a bigger version of the enemies show up, he has horns, a ramming attack a ground pound, a ton of health is slow and you have to dodge his attacks and pound him from behidn while he recovers, all the while dealing with another wave of the smaller ones.....

...And within 3 minutes of game these are regarded as "scouts"....

So, right of the bat i'll leave my "fuck you" to this game, but i WILL see more of it because i'm dumb enough to look a book past it's cover and Bioware has surplus with me, so i think it's uphill from here.
You should REALLY watch past the first three minutes of the 16 minute pair of videos I linked.

Really.

[Bells]

I did! I saw some sort of Shield bashing skill in part two... "yay"?

I'm sure the combat branches out and the strategy branches out later on, but the first impression remains.

[Krylo]

I did! I saw some sort of Shield bashing skill in part two... "yay"?

I'm sure the combat branches out and the strategy branches out later on, but the first impression remains.

You didn't pay any attention to when the seeker told the Dwarf to stop lying and suddenly Bethany's tits got smaller, the Champion's armor and weapon changed, and all the enemies got harder, then?

[Seil]

I take it that the demo isn't available via PS3?

[Kim]

Actual game demo isn't downloadable for like five more days IIRC.

[Kim]

DEMO'S OUT FUCK YEAH!

ROGUES CAN FUCKING TELEPORT BEHIND SHIT AND SHANK THEM IN THE SPINE!

ROGUES CAN FUCKING BACKFLIP!

ROGUES CAN EVEN DASH THROUGH ENEMIES AND CUT THEM TO RIBBONS!

I THINK THE WARRIORS AND AND MAGES CAN DO SHIT BUT FUCK THEM THEY AREN'T ROGUES!

EDIT: Snarky FemHawke reminds me of Morrigan, in a good way.

[Bells]

going for the PC Demo right now...

Do you know if the Demo has any sort of Online capabilities?

[Krylo]

DEMO'S OUT FUCK YEAH!

ROGUES CAN FUCKING TELEPORT BEHIND SHIT AND SHANK THEM IN THE SPINE!

ROGUES CAN FUCKING BACKFLIP!

ROGUES CAN EVEN DASH THROUGH ENEMIES AND CUT THEM TO RIBBONS!

I THINK THE WARRIORS AND AND MAGES CAN DO SHIT BUT FUCK THEM THEY AREN'T ROGUES!

In addition to this, Fuck Yes.


In a calmer tone of voice, they really managed to make combat feel more exciting and actiony without removing any of the strategy shit, other than top down isometric view... but that's not really much of an issue.

I'm also really liking the 'mood meter' in the middle of the dialogue circle, and Flemeth was amazing.

[Krylo]

Update after trying all three classes:

Warriors are fun... ish. They're apparently a lot of fun at high levels? The class was pretty great in the 'Legend' tutorial section, when you had whirlwind and shit. Once the game tossed you back to level 1, though, it felt sluggish and slow compared to Rogue and Mage. Though I did really like the fact that you swing around a massive sword and you hit everything in the vicinity instead of just your main target (and you can get an ability to upgrade that to hit even more)

Mages are awesome. The spell lists seem to be considerably trimmed down, but what's there is fun to play with and feels really interesting. The ranged attack animation for mages is a bit... uh... well, in the words of baby bear, "I picture her going "Pechew! Pechew! BABAM!" whenever she does it." I do really like the melee attacks, though. Instead of shooting them, you're just beating them uplongside the head. Also, it seems most of the mage staves are like the one in the trailer. Starting staff has a mace head on one end and a spear tip on the other, for instance. Annnnd the inferno spell is freakin' sweet.

Rogues are fantastic. You really feel like an acrobatic 'rogue' type, especially compared to warriors. And DA1. You're dashing across the battlefield, backflipping around, kicking flasks of stunning poison into dudes' faces, disappearing and backstabbing them, etc. They SEEM a bit weak in the tutorial, but when they knock you back down to one, well the rogue was murdering shit faster than the warrior. I'm feeling like they will remain my favorite class, though mages are giving them a run for their money this time.

I also like how they set up the stats a bit better, this time. Cunning is actually useful for characters that aren't rogues (Defense), and magic is for characters that aren't mages (Magic resist), etc. Rogue DPS is based entirely on dexterity, and warrior on strength... and mage on magic. But that's not so bad as that dex also gives crit chance (and some warrior abilities, like sunder, really seem like they'd benefit from high crit), and strength gives you physical resistance against things like knockback and what have you, so that's always good.

I'm also digging the upgraded ability trees, and the fact that you can buy ability upgrades instead of just new abilities.

It also seems, judging by Aveline, that your companions get their own special trees... complete with special abilities you can only have them learn if they like you, OR HATE YOU, enough.

For instance, if Aveline likes you, there's an ability she can learn that makes 10% of the damage you take is transfer to her. If she hates you, on the other hand, she's become more 'wary' in your presence, and gains 10% damage protection.

A lot of the art assets feel like a step backwards though. The actual graphical capabilities are a huge upgrade, don't get me wrong, but a lot of the character, armor, and weapon design feels more Slayers than LotR, which isn't really a good thing considering the original DA was MOSTLY good about staying MOSTLY realistic looking.

Though I do like the way Mage-Hawke's clothing looks when you start the actual story.

AND, I like that cutscene kills are done differently depending on class. For instance, while Warrior/Rogue Hawke pull out the DA1 Ogre kill, Mage Hawke just blows that fucker to hell. Mage, also, has the BEST Legend start. Just rolls through that group of darkspawn waving his/her hand around and making them all burn like bitches.

Over all, I'd say it's an improvement.

[Grimpond]

where is this demo?

[Melfice]

where is this demo?

Xbox has it already.
I believe PC as well (check Steam or the website for Dragon Age 2).
PS3 will get it as soon as the PSN updates. For Europe, this will either have been today or tomorrow (not entirely sure anymore when the PSN updates. Used to be Fridays, then Thursdays... but they may have moved up even further by now.). Not sure for the US. I think the US PSN updates on Tuesdays? So it should be there now as well.

[Seil]

Still downloading, but PSN has it.

http://art.penny-arcade.com/photos/251367367_9ZFxu-L-2.jpg

[Marc v4.0]

Just finished the run through the Demo as a mage, and damn was that fun.

I really hope this level of quality is what we can expect for the console, instead of a shitty porting.

[Bells]

My reaction to the Demo:

I really really liked it. Seems kinda fun. I still stand on my early point that i'm here watching my guy cycle 4 Attack animations over and over while my Skills charge up... the game does show a lot of promise and a LOT of polish, which i really like. The very little nagging things around it, bother me a little bit, bit it's mostly silly stuff from a design point of view.

Like, in the last battle of the Demo, alongside the Pirate Woman, your party is right there, 2 feet away from the enemy group, staring, talking for a while... and as soon as the battle starts my character shouts "ANOTHER WAAAAAAVE!!" so that got a Chuckle out of me...

Also, the fact that most weapons (specially the Dual Daggers of the Pirate Lady) are just Floating in midair behind their backs kinda draw me off the game for a second, but then again, it's not like this is a major Design point or anything like that...

I do know however that i no longer care about any Dialogue branches because i'll Play only as the Snarky Wisecracking Guy... that was just way too fun to pass up on.

Also, Mages are quite fun to play around with. I certainly felt right at home, unlike Warrior.

[Kim]

My reaction to the Demo:

I really really liked it. Seems kinda fun. I still stand on my early point that i'm here watching my guy cycle 4 Attack animations over and over while my Skills charge up...

*looks at the first Dragon Age*

*looks at Dragon Age 2*

pffffffthahaha...

[Seil]

Well that was... utterly disappointing.

If I wanted a ret-con medieval Mass Effect, I'd go play Mass Effect. Health Potions have a cool down? Flemeth has hair-horns? Isabella now is brown, with piercings? Dialogue thing has to show you which option is good/neutral/bad? As a mage, I'm having trouble targeting specific enemies, I can't stick my PC on attack - I have to spam "X," which kinda makes combat a button masher. And the fact that there's a major graphical downgrade, tactics kinda suck - the only thing I really told my party to do was drink health/lyrium pots when they needed to and I can't find that. I'm still unsure of whether or not I like the skill tree setup, guessing which skill is going to be unlocked with each choice. (What was so wrong with the old system that it needed changing?)

They completely re-did it, and they re-did it with the Mass Effect formula. Why Mass Effect? I hate Mass Effect! That's why I play Dragon Age!

I think I just ought to spend my money on Awakening, and imagine that as the sequel.

In a calmer tone of voice, they really managed to make combat feel more exciting and actiony without removing any of the strategy shit, other than top down isometric view... but that's not really much of an issue.

If by that you mean "hopeless button masher."

Also, it seems most of the mage staves are like the one in the trailer.

Lies and slander. The mage I played had what looked to be a pointy metal bit on the end of a stick, with a mace head that she never used at the top. Sometimes, when I would use the staff (ie. 'attack') the whole fire thing stopped working and I ended up standing there, twirling the stick like an idiot.

The staff in the trailer was a totally badass sword with a long hilt that doubled as a staff that fired lightning and shit, y'know, instead of actually being shit.

[Krylo]

But... it doesn't play anything like Mass Effect?

[Marc v4.0]

major graphical downgrade? What ARE you smoking, son?

edit: I mean, I -guess- you could mean on PC, but console is like a whole different gen almost.

Lies and slander. The mage I played had what looked to be a pointy metal bit on the end of a stick, with a mace head that she never used at the top. Sometimes, when I would use the staff (ie. 'attack') the whole fire thing stopped working and I ended up standing there, twirling the stick like an idiot.

The staff in the trailer was a totally badass sword with a long hilt that doubled as a staff that fired lightning and shit, y'know, instead of actually being shit.

Think that was refering to the fact that mage staffs seem to double as melee weapons, like the sword staff in the trailer. Not sure about the idiot stick twirling thing, never crossed that one.

[Krylo]

I DID hear rumors of the Console Versions having entirely different 'console friendly' mechanics.

MAYBE I should download the demo on one of them and see what Seil is ranting about...

[Grimpond]

Seil is seil in a seil thread on a seil. WHAT ARE YOU PEOPLE EXPECTING?!?!

Rogue is fucking awesome, mage is stupid strong, havent given warrior a try. Definitely gonna be a day 1 buy for me.

[Kim]

Isabella now is brown, with piercings?Uh... Seil, perhaps you didn't notice, but fucking everyone was white-as-hell in Origins. Honestly speaking, DA2 was in need of a bit of a retcon in that regard.

Beyond that, I think it hilarious that you're complaining about a lot of the changes that I absolutely loved. I liked Dragon Age, but overall it was very EEEHHHHHHHHHH. Pretty much the primary redeeming trait it had was the amazing character writing, and I hear the PC version had better gameplay (though the gameplay was decent in a "like FFXII but not as good" sort of way), but the pacing was atrocious and the overarching plot was generic and boring as hell but for a handful of standout moments. Pretty much every change they made was nice, because they were admitting that the first DA had more problems

I DID hear rumors of the Console Versions having entirely different 'console friendly' mechanics.

MAYBE I should download the demo on one of them and see what Seil is ranting about...

Console DA2 is better than Console DA. If he played Console DA2 demo, it stands to reason that he played Console DA, and the complaint is still silly.

[Melfice]

I DID hear rumors of the Console Versions having entirely different 'console friendly' mechanics.

MAYBE I should download the demo on one of them and see what Seil is ranting about...

What Seil says is mostly true, but I don't experience it as a bad thing, really.

Yes, the dialogue is now set up as in Mass Effect, in a dialogue wheel set-up, with a little symbol in the centre telling you what each option does (Purple mask for the snark, Good is a green leaf and "Evil" is an anvil and hammer, I think? Investigation is a question mark.)

Combat does involve pressing the "A" button (on Xbox. No doubt X on PS3) for every single attack you want to make, but again: Not necessarily a bad thing. It means you have a bit more control over what and when you attack, instead of "Press "A", run like a headless chicken towards the nearest enemy and attack it".

It overall does, actually, play like Mass Effect, now that I think about it.
And it's a good thing for me. I was happily taken off-guard by the change.
If I wasn't absolutely sure I wasn't going to buy it (immediately, at the very least), I might have even been swayed to pre-order now.

[Marc v4.0]

I DID hear rumors of the Console Versions having entirely different 'console friendly' mechanics.

MAYBE I should download the demo on one of them and see what Seil is ranting about...

I don't see how that really equates to the problems he was having.

[Krylo]

Yes, the dialogue is now set up as in Mass Effect, in a dialogue wheel set-up, with a little symbol in the centre telling you what each option does (Purple mask for the snark, Good is a green leaf and "Evil" is an anvil and hammer, I think? Investigation is a question mark.)

I thought it felt more Alpha Protocol than Mass Effect, really, thanks to the 'mood' thing in the center.

Also, there's a fist that seems to mean 'violent' or 'aggressive' that appears instead of the gavel and hammer (Judgmental?) sometimes. And there's a scale thing (mediating?) that appears instead of the laurel (extending a laurel in peace?) as well.

I didn't notice any 'snarky' moments that were anything but the snarky mask, though.

There's also a thing with three arrows kinda twirling out of a central spot that seems to be 'neutral'?

I already feel like I need a manual.

ANYWAY I'm gonna go ahead and see about downloading the demo for my PS3 (we got new internets since the last time I've used the PS3's online, so we'll see how big of a pain it is). Maybe I'll have something to say about the console specific changes after.

ON THE PC THOUGH it plays almost exactly like DA1, but everything is faster, and feels more actiony. Somehow.

Edit@Marc: Well the 'mashing x, plays like Mass Effect' thing might be a console thing. On PC it's not like that at all, though, so.

[Marc v4.0]

Oh, hm, I didn't know PC kept auto-attack. Interesting.

Well, having played DA and the DA2 demo, I prefer press 'A' to attack because I don't feel like I am a minimal participant in the fights anymore.

edit: I say a purple Diamond instead of the Comedy mask a few times, and I think the swirling arrows indicates a conversation end statement, or maybe a transition-cut to action/scene statement

Also, yes, the pacing was turrhorrible, but it was sort of cut up and pieced back together to rush us around a bit.

[Melfice]

Well, the mashing "x" thing really equates to pulling the trigger for your gun in Mass Effect.
So, every tap of the action button is the same as a swing with your sword.

In that regard, it's totally like Mass Effect.

[Marc v4.0]

and Legend of Zelda, God of War, Oblivion, Morrowind, Darksiders, Banjo-Kazooie, Metroid, Saint's Row, I think the point is clear

we only think "Mass Effect" because we are already thinking "Bioware"

[Seil]

But... it doesn't play anything like Mass Effect?

Could be mistaken, but the menu system for the DA2 demo is pretty much the same for ME2 demo.

major graphical downgrade? What ARE you smoking, son?

edit: I mean, I -guess- you could mean on PC, but console is like a whole different gen almost.

So when you play DA:O, look at the characters. You know you could kinda see someone like that in real life. Alistair, Morrigan, Lelianna - whoever. With DA2, it's kinda like I'm watching a saturday morning cartoon. The first game had some pretty neat moments, some gory bits when you went into Orzammar - this just seems like they cut the corners off to make it safe for kids.

Seil is seil in a seil thread on a seil. WHAT ARE YOU PEOPLE EXPECTING?!?!

Rogue is fucking awesome, mage is stupid strong, havent given warrior a try. Definitely gonna be a day 1 buy for me.

First off, fuck that reputation. Just because I'm Seil doesn't mean that my opinion isn't as valid as anyone elses.

I found the game to be frustrating, something that didn't measure up to the first one in any way, shape or form.

Uh... Seil, perhaps you didn't notice, but fucking everyone was white-as-hell in Origins. Honestly speaking, DA2 was in need of a bit of a retcon in that regard.

Beyond that, I think it hilarious that you're complaining about a lot of the changes that I absolutely loved. I liked Dragon Age, but overall it was very EEEHHHHHHHHHH. Pretty much the primary redeeming trait it had was the amazing character writing, and I hear the PC version had better gameplay (though the gameplay was decent in a "like FFXII but not as good" sort of way), but the pacing was atrocious and the overarching plot was generic and boring as hell but for a handful of standout moments. Pretty much every change they made was nice, because they were admitting that the first DA had more problems

I went in expecting Silent Hill 2 and came out playing Silent Hill: Shattered Memories.

Let me state it a little more clearly:

Cons:

- Cooldown times seem very lengthly, especially considering they're putting a limit on how many health potions you can use at a time

- Combat is worse - there's little to do but spam the attack button. Why I can't just press it once, like in the original, I don't know. I have trouble targeting specific enemies - I guess by the later leves you're supposed to be this unstoppable badass taking on cannon fodder enemies all at once, but at the lower levels - the higher ones, too, I'll bet - it really pays to be able to target a specific enemy. Like you used to be able to do.

- The menu system - this is a petty gripe, but what was wrong with the menu system in DA:O? Sure there were a few times where if it was a little tedious, but everything was laid out - you knew what you were doing. With the new system, the skill tree system in particular, it's just really cluttered. DA:O have a basic setup, you chose this skill to get to that one - DA2 says "screw that crap. We've got trees with branches, and each leaf you pick opens up a different leaf at random."

- Aesthetics. Bright orange effing hair. In the original DA:O, you probably knew a guy who looked like Alistair. They were believable, like they could exist in real life. Which was great for the roleplaying aspect. They still look like people, but they've become less believable, maybe due to the colourful cartoon style armour, or the bright orange hair.

And it's not that I'm racist. I love all people equally. But if you've established a character as white, brown, black, this appearance, that appearance: stick with it. I agree that Flemeth looks cool, but she's not supposed to look like that. She didn't before - what costume change happened after the Wardens left the wilds but before Lothering was destroyed?

- Dialogue Wheel - it's not that bad, and it's nice to have a voice actor, a good one. That being said, there's so little choice compared to DA:O - again with the role playing perspective, if you wanted to say something, you had several lines to choose from, some ranging from lawful-good, others to chaotic-evil. It was neat, and was more immersive. Having the word "Thanks." when Flemeth helps you is kind of a step backward, as you don't know what you're going to say - non-descript symbols not withstanding. Sure it's nice and quick, but it doesn't pull you in.

[Kim]

They gave the Qunari horns. Changing Flemeth's hair or making a character with a fairly small role in the first game a woman of color seems more than okay when DA2 is pretty much looking at DA:O and saying, "Christ our game was bland as fuck."

[Marc v4.0]

So when you play DA:O, look at the characters. You know you could kinda see someone like that in real life. Alistair, Morrigan, Lelianna - whoever. With DA2, it's kinda like I'm watching a saturday morning cartoon. The first game had some pretty neat moments, some gory bits when you went into Orzammar - this just seems like they cut the corners off to make it safe for kids.


DA characters looked like shit on the console, with blur and bloom used to conceal jagged edges and dodgy facial animations.

The first game had some pretty neat moments, some gory bits when you went into Orzammar - this just seems like they cut the corners off to make it safe for kids.

I erupted an Ogre into a shower of blood and fire! While my warriors cut darkspawn literally in half with gushes of blood like so many fountains WHAT ARE YOU SMOKING!?

edit: The art style being different is pretty much as Nonsie said, with a further justification from the fact that we are playing a story someone is telling which means it is...colored a little bit by their mind, even in the non-crazy parts.

[Krylo]

Seil is seil in a seil thread on a seil. WHAT ARE YOU PEOPLE EXPECTING?!?!



First off, fuck that reputation. Just because I'm Seil doesn't mean that my opinion isn't as valid as anyone elses.

Yeeaaaahhhhh, this isn't Seil being Seil.

Seil being Seil is a specific kind of silly, not raging at something that doesn't seem to make a lot of sense. I really need to finish updating my PS3 and check the demo to see if Seil's got a point here or not, BUT even if it is completely excellent on the consoles as well, this still isn't the kind of thing that one just attributes to Seil's innate Seilness.

Edit: ALSO I think he's complaining about the ART DIRECTION more than the GRAPHICS. He's just using the wrong words.

That said:

They gave the Qunari horns. Changing Flemeth's hair or making a character with a fairly small role in the first game a woman of color seems more than okay when DA2 is pretty much looking at DA:O and saying, "Christ our game was bland as fuck."

Gaider/the lore team has explained the horns and Flemeth's appearance.

In the first: Some Qunari are born hornless. Hornless Qunari are used as scouts and 'diplomats' (in so much as Qunari have them) because hornless Qunari are less terrifying to other peoples.

In the second: Flemeth is a godling, she can look like what she wants. She wanted to look like a crazy old woman to the Warden, and she wanted to look like a powerful warrior mage to the Champion.

Isabella isn't explained, BUT I really really really prefer her new look, and she was only around for like five seconds in the original, so fuck it.

Edit: THAT SAID, fuck the new darkspawn.

[Seil]

DA characters looked like shit on the console, with blur and bloom used to conceal jagged edges and dodgy facial animations.

And there were other graphical bugs and glitches in the game. It still feels more real than Thundercats 2.

I erupted an Ogre into a shower of blood and fire! While my warriors cut darkspawn literally in half with gushes of blood like so many fountains WHAT ARE YOU SMOKING!?

I don't mean explosions and blood - kids can get that in cartoons these days. I'm talking about the darker bits of Origins. (http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Broodmother)

[Marc v4.0]

So...because their wasn't a big nasty naked squik monster in the Demo, a monster which you have to play a good while before you even get to in the relevant game, it is dumbed down for kids to be safe?

Fuck no. That check will not cash.


edit: I concede that art direction is something that is up to the individual to like or dislike and yeah, not really crazy about the new Ogre cause it looks a little...slow, but the Hurfdurfs really freak me out.

[Seil]

I didn't mean that exactly. It was an an example that the first game was darker than what the second game appears to be. The second game is more colourful, more "action packed!" than the original - sacrificing a serious nature and a fun game into Golden Axe: Beast Rider. Or Fallout: Brotherhood of Steel.

It isn't out yet, so none of us know the whole story, but going from what the demo has shown us - which is what we're all doing here - the game looks like a dumbed down, cartoon version of the original Dragon Age.

http://cdn.cad-comic.com/comics/cad-20060208-ab377.jpg

[Kim]

A guy got infected with Darkspawn blood and you have to either kill him yourself or make his wife kill him.

~so cartoony~

[Krylo]

Speaking of, one of the reasons I like Rogues more than Mages is that if you play mage, the ogre kills Bethany.

Edit: Also 40% done downloading the console demo. Probably won't get around to playing it until tonight, though.

[Marc v4.0]

I didn't mean that exactly. It was an an example that the first game was darker than what the second game appears to be. The second game is more colourful, more "action packed!" than the original - sacrificing a serious nature and a fun game into Golden Axe: Beast Rider. Or Fallout: Brotherhood of Steel.

It isn't out yet, so none of us know the whole story, but going from what the demo has shown us - which is what we're all doing here - the game looks like a dumbed down, cartoon version of the original Dragon Age.

I had to assume that is what you meant, because you used such a very extreme example, one of the few of that level of extreme in DA:O.

So if you actually meant that, well then...


I erupted an Ogre into a shower of blood and fire! While my warriors cut darkspawn literally in half with gushes of blood like so many fountains WHAT ARE YOU SMOKING!?

[Seil]

A guy got infected with Darkspawn blood and you have to either kill him yourself or make his wife kill him.

~so cartoony~

Which is still a pretty vanilla choice compared to most of the choices in the original.

And that was another sore point - I don't know much about this totally fictional ailment, but it just seemed like "Yeah, perfectly fine, funeral rites time" and then it came on all at once, and turns into 'Big Tragic Scene.' Like, if there's more cinematic atwixt the big action packed Ogre battle, guy dies, big action packed Templar battle, to maybe tell my why I should care about this guy, then it would be better.

As it stands, it felt the same as Michelle Rodriguez' death at the end of the Resident Evil movie.

[Kim]

He seems to be primarily complaining that the art style isn't ~grimdarkrealistic~, thus there's no possible way the game could be as grimdarkrealistic as the first one, which is a silly assumption since we've already seen badness happen. Aside from that, "realism" when it comes to fantasy video games always reads as "bland and uninteresting" to me, which is admittedly a taste thing, but I honestly don't see what's supposed to be appealing about your art style just being a big Tolkien handjob. I think the only time I've ever seen fantasy "realism" done well is in Berserk, but Berserk also has fuckawesome demon designs and a guy with a metal arm so yeah.

Which is still a pretty vanilla choice compared to most of the choices in the original.

Name one choice that appeared in the beginning of DA:O that is somehow more grimdark than that.

[Seil]

I erupted an Ogre into a shower of blood and fire! While my warriors cut darkspawn literally in half with gushes of blood like so many fountains WHAT ARE YOU SMOKING!?

...And? I could do that in a few video games meant for kids, I could watch that in a couple of teen-themed animes, I could probably even find you a bit where they do it on a kids show. My Google-fu is strong.

That being said, yeah, you can do that. A bunch of times. It's something we've all seen before, in some variation or another.

[Kim]

If you're saying DA2 isn't the same based on the beginning, prove your point with examples from the first game's beginning.

[Seil]

Name one choice that appeared in the beginning of DA:O that is somehow more grimdark than that.

Don't recruit Sten into the party, keep him caged when the Darkspawn arrive.
Tell Jowan's plot to the First Enchanter and have him be turned into a tranquil.

Yeah, you don't get to see it, but it certainly would've carried more weight than some dude being infected. The DA2 demo is so focused on the action that you don't get to understand any of the characters, so that guy just turns into the guy in every zombie movie who's not a main character, but infected but a family member, or a young child, or whatever.

[Kim]

Gee, sounds like that guy from the actual beginning of DA:O who tries to become a grey warden with you and ends up dying. But that comparison would be apt. Man, some guy dies with hardly any characterization in the very beginning, clearly nothing dark or serious happens later on in DA:O. I guess I won't bother playing it. *flies away on a cloud of smugsmileys*

[Seil]

I didn't mention Jory or... Gareth? Was that his name? Because those weren't choices. Those weren't really much of anything.

You do have the option to save Sten, who would be tortured and killed, easy prey for a full Darkspawn horde. You do have the option to tell the First Enchanter about Jowan's plot - which means he would become a tranquil.

[Kim]

You keep mentioning Sten, who shows up later in DA:O than the DA2 demo actually went into DA2.

[Melfice]

Seil, I think you're really grasping at straws to keep your conviction that Dragon Age 2 isn't as dark.

The art direction doesn't help, but certainly from what I've seen in the demo (which is very little, admittedly) there really won't be any less grittiness.
Convincing a wife to kill her husband, who will otherwise die a horrible death is not a walk through the park filled with daisies and daffodils.

It's most certainly comparable to leaving Sten to rot or saving him.
And we don't know what effects it may have later in the game on Aveline. It may leave a trauma, we don't know.

[Kim]

Remember, when you leave Sten to die, he's gotten no real characterization. Certainly no more than the Templar.

[Seil]

I could mention that seeing my father suffering from a mortal wound abd my mother determined to stay with him until they're both murdered by the same people who killed my sister-in-law and my six or seven year old nephew in the human noble storyline, and how it left much more of an impression on me than having to kill a Templar, but it's not really a choice.

More of a strong characterization on people you only know and see in game for, like, ten or fifteen minutes.

EDIT:

Remember, when you leave Sten to die, he's gotten no real characterization. Certainly no more than the Templar.

Let's see - the way he's presented tells you a bit about his character (he killed a whole bunch of people), his determination to take punishment and his quoting the Qunari prayers while imprisoned show he's got a sense of honour and his dialogue tree tells you he's remorseful. You could pull the strong, silent type approach, the archetype that's widely used, but from the beginning, Sten is well versed enough as a character that I would've felt guilty for leaving him to an undoubtedly slow, brutal, bloody death at the hands of the Darkspawn horde.

[Marc v4.0]

I wanna see these fucking kids shows for little kids where they show kids blood fountains and exploding gore on fire. Find this shit for me. I wanna see a fragged Wiggle, goddammit!

DO IT.

edit: Where giant monsters slam your sister or brother into the ground, over and over as blood spurts from them and your family can only stand there and watch in horror at the sudden and brutal act.

[Krylo]

Just going to point out that if you tell the first enchanter about Jowan absolutely nothing changes. They already knew he was practicing blood magic and were going to make him Tranquil either way. Telling the First Enchanter just means that the First Enchanter wants you to be his inside guy/gal so that he can catch Lily helping Jowan. In other words, the First Enchanter is being vindictive, and wants a member of the chantry to be punished if one of his apprentices is going to be.

[Seil]

I wanna see these fucking kids shows for little kids where they show kids blood fountains and exploding gore on fire. Find this shit for me. I wanna see a fragged Wiggle, goddammit!

DO IT.

http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100314112514/marvel_dc/images/thumb/a/aa/Jason_Todd_meets_Crowbar.jpg/677px-Jason_Todd_meets_Crowbar.jpg

EDIT

edit: Where giant monsters slam your sister or brother into the ground, over and over as blood spurts from them and your family can only stand there and watch in horror at the sudden and brutal act.

Oh, you mean exactly what was shown in the game? I'll see if I can find something.

[Marc v4.0]

That is not what I asked for at all and you damn well know it. It isn't what you SAID you could find and you damn well know it.

If you meant teenagers (or middleaged basement dwellers, even) then you have entirely missed the bus here. PG-13 and T for Teen shit is not "For Kids".

[Kim]

That's not bloody or gory, and since when has Batman been "for kids"? How long ago was that?

[Seil]

Eighties, I think.

There's a few fights in Disney movies. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=prh4w-N_XbE)

[Kim]

Look at all that blood and gore.

Wait.

[Marc v4.0]

Oh, yes, I see now all the blood and gore and dead loved ones and are you really being serious here or are you just yanking us around?

I loved the part where Gaston erupted into meaty chunks at the enraged berserking of the Beast

[Krylo]

Ok, got it on console. I can see where Seil is complaining about the combat. It's pretty button mashy. It can't really be compared to like, GoW or DMC or whatever, because there's no combos. Just x x x x x oh, hey, I can push square now.

It's still not as bad as he was saying, and definitely fits a console better than the tactical mouse clicky shit on the PC, but I also definitely prefer the PC's control scheme.

[Kim]

Ok, got it on console. I can see where Seil is complaining about the combat. It's pretty button mashy. It can't really be compared to like, GoW or DMC or whatever, because there's no combos. Just x x x x x oh, hey, I can push square now.

It's still not as bad as he was saying, and definitely fits a console better than the tactical mouse clicky shit on the PC, but I also definitely prefer the PC's control scheme.

It's still vastly superior to the first game's console version.

[Marc v4.0]

Ok, got it on console. I can see where Seil is complaining about the combat. It's pretty button mashy. It can't really be compared to like, GoW or DMC or whatever, because there's no combos. Just x x x x x oh, hey, I can push square now.

It's still not as bad as he was saying, and definitely fits a console better than the tactical mouse clicky shit on the PC, but I also definitely prefer the PC's control scheme.

Ok, glad they did it that way then, instead of trying to force the PC controls while taking out all the other stuff that made it doable on the PC. It felt like a huge failing of DA:O that it desperatly wanted me to be playing it the PC way but derpconsole.

[Melfice]

In terms of dark and gritty cartoons, your best answer should have been Gargoyles.

And the goriest thing shown there was people getting (non-fatally) shot or stabbed (aside from that one guy who DID get fatally stabbed, but he was saved via that pact with Desdemona.), and petrified Gargoyles getting smashed. (as far as I can remember)

And Gargoyles was dark as hell for a cartoon.

It has NOTHING on DA2, however.

[Marc v4.0]

In terms of dark and gritty cartoons, your best answer should have been Gargoyles.

And the goriest thing shown there was people getting (non-fatally) shot or stabbed (aside from that one guy who DID get fatally stabbed, but he was saved via that pact with Desdemona.), and petrified Gargoyles getting smashed. (as far as I can remember)

And Gargoyles was dark as hell for a cartoon.

It has NOTHING on DA2, however.

We so very much need a Gragoyles movie, but they would ruin it like crazy and fuck that noise

[Seil]

If you meant teenagers (or middleaged basement dwellers, even) then you have entirely missed the bus here. PG-13 and T for Teen shit is not "For Kids".

...PG-13 and T-Rated games? What did you play/watch when you were a kid? I seem to remember watching Indiana Jones, (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owZPspxJ4jw) where they rip out someone's heart and burn him alive. Or That bit in Diablo II (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gvzSgW7CuPQ) where Ba'al makes a dude explode.

[Seil]

My argument is almost the same as the one Pudgeinabowl makes closer to the bottom of this page. (http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/141/index/6146306/116)

[Marc v4.0]

I dare say he is just as off the track as you are, or smoking the same thing as you but with a lot more rage venom. I think this guy just hates change and is expressing it all over every single point he can grab.

Except he mentions "pointless" amounts of gore, but your point would have us believe there isn't enough grimgore. So...


edit: Ok, this guy is full of shit and just boldly lying. You can't change the difficulty, yet he claims he cranked it up to hard? Bullshit.

[Solid Snake]

...First of all, any speculation whatsoever as to whether DA2's story will be "better" or "worse," or "darker" or "lighter" in tone than DA:O, seems premature to base on a Demo. The fact that gameplay has apparently improved tremendously since DA:O is simply to be expected, as this is a sequel. In terms of narrative, however, it's probably best to wait until after a DA2 playthrough or two to judge whether it's succeeded.

As for DA:O, I felt like the origin stories were in some respects better crafted narratively than major segments of the "actual game?" I also felt like, whereas ME2 had very a consistent quality in the missions, DA:O had definite high points and low moments. The Orzammar Deep Roads mission was fantastic, whereas replaying the Circle of Magi quest nearly bores me to tears every time, even when I'm playing as a mage.

* Note that I am way too busy playing a new PS3 copy of ME2 to download the DA2 demo, although when it comes to Day One guaranteed purchases like DA2 I often prefer to not play the demo and simply wait for the finished product anyway. So when it comes to DA2 I have no idea what I'm talkin' about, unless until its release date. Preordered that sucka.
It probably says something great about ME2 that I've played through the PC version three times, then bought the PS3 version anyway just to see it on my larger television and have an excuse to skip ME1 and just make Genesis Comic choices a few times with a few new Shepards. Keep doin' what you're doin', Bioware.

[Seil]

but your point would have us believe there isn't enough grimgore. So...

I'm not trying to say that there's not enough, I'm trying to say that it doesn't carry the same weight as it did previously.

EDIT

As for DA:O, I felt like the origin stories were in some respects better crafted narratively than major segments of the "actual game?" I also felt like, whereas ME2 had very a consistent quality in the missions, DA:O had definite high points and low moments. The Orzammar Deep Roads mission was fantastic, whereas replaying the Circle of Magi quest nearly bores me to tears every time, even when I'm playing as a mage.

Yeah... That whole Fade section sloth demon thing is tedious, but the rest of the tower isn't bad, and the boss battle is neat.

[Bells]

I can't comment on Grittness, i see Splashes of Blood going everywhere and characters covered in it. But as someone who has not played any Dragon Age games before, let me comment my honest reactions:

When Bethany died, i went online to check "who Bethany was", because her death seemed a bit "up there in the air" for me, so i wanted to check if it mattered to the story and my character at all... as far as i know she exists only in DA2 (according to the Wikis) so my guess is that she either comes back later on, or that Death was more "show and tell" than Plot exposition.

The part about the Templar and his Wife, that one i actually liked. It was silly drama for me, cause up to the last momment they were all going about it like it was just a Wound that needed treatment. But at the end the guy is going to die and everyone is like "Yeah, c'mon you knew this was going to happen...". So that was Weird. But i did like it, because i was Playing Snarky all the way, and at that momment i choosed to kill the guy myself and spare the wife. That made me feel like my character had mroe depth.

The whole Conversation Wheel thing... it's not really Like Mass Effect. In Mass Effect you need to follow the conversation to know what is Paragon and What is renegade (although quite a few seem pretty obvious), that of course, aside from Paragon and Renegade Exclusive dialogue. But the Icons seemed more like "Harsh, Indiferente, Compasionate" tha "Good, Evil, Neutral" to me... Flameth loved me as a Snarky character so i enjoyed that. But i do admit.. thanks to the Fixed position of the Dialog and the Icons telling me what is what, i wasn't reading the choices i had, i just went with Snarky anyways.

Also, after the Fight with the Pirate, at End of the Demo, you have the characters covered in Blood whiel talking, and the Pirate lady has quite a fell specks of Blood on her lips, and i was the whole time thinking to myself "Lady, PLEASE, clean that off!"

Still... i Enjoyed it. But i'm not overwhelmed by it...

Also, Seil, as i'm Playing Mass Effect 2, i have to say, man i have no idea where you got to compare these games.... DA2 Plays Exactly like a Polished version of KoToR, Actually this whole game right now feels like a Medieval version of that. Your comparison is a tad off the mark.

[Krylo]

When Bethany died, i went online to check "who Bethany was", because her death seemed a bit "up there in the air" for me, so i wanted to check if it mattered to the story and my character at all... as far as i know she exists only in DA2 (according to the Wikis) so my guess is that she either comes back later on, or that Death was more "show and tell" than Plot exposition.

She's your sister. She dies if you choose mage, and then you keep Carver (your warrior brother). If you choose rogue or warrior, the opposite happens. Either way you lose a sibling.

I do kind of hope that the actual game gives us a little more time with the family in Lothering, though. It felt like the beginning could really be improved by seeing some family time before the fighting. Like they did with the human noble origin in DA:O. Let you see the family before murdering them. So you care.

And it might, it's pretty obvious that a good amount was skipped over after that to get us to Isabella.


ALSO: I've had a little more time with the PS3 version. Quit at the cut after talking to Flemeth, 'cause I felt I had done enough to see the differences.

PC version is superior.

Combat: The combat for consoles works better on consoles than the tactical combat of the PC would/did, but the tactical PC combat is still the superior experience over all. Further, on the PC version I push the '-' key and use a healing potion, or the '=' key for a stamina/mana potion... or just click on the icons, right there on the bottom bar. On the Console I have to hold down a button, select it from a wheel, and hit x. It's not MUCH more of a pain, but enough of one to use as an example of how the PC is more fluid. Or the fact that to use more than three abilities I have to hold down a button to bring up my alternate 'hotkeys'. It's a good mechanic in that it allows you to quickly use up to six bar items (as opposed to three), but it's still inferior to the PC, where I can have ten at the push of a button, and more at the click of a mouse.

Graphics: Jaggies, and dark. The PC version, on a higher end machine (mine) was much smoother, much brighter, and much sharper. Everything felt more fluid and was easier to follow.

HUD: The HUD on the Console is, frankly, huge and in the way. The minimap somehow manages to use up more of my screen than I would like, while simultaneously showing me next to nothing. Meanwhile, the 'here's how you do shit' messages always managed to cover it completely. And then there's the power... flower... thing, that tells me what powers are on what buttons. It's huge and kind of annoying. The power bar on the PC, which holds over 20 abilities at high res, is far far far less obtrusive despite being more functional. This is most likely due to the fact that the Console Versions are a lower resolution than the PC version (assuming high end machine), which leads back to the PC being superior visually.

Menus: Do feel more cluttered on the console than on the PC. Again, resolution blah blah blah. But the whole thing felt much more claustrophobic and cluttered.


ALL AND ALL, I think they did a very good job of porting the game, don't get me wrong. They did better than I could have ever expected from anyone in so far as porting a tactical RPG over to console goes. And by making it an Action RPG at that. It's a completely different genre depending on whether you get it on console or PC.

Bravo bravo, Bioware.

However, in my opinion, the PC version is still the far superior version in pretty much every way. I think the console version will be a much bigger hit this time around, and do much better in reviews and in practice, but the PC version is definitely where I'm staying.

Which is good, 'cause I pre-ordered it last night before playing it on console.

[Solid Snake]

She's your sister. She dies if you choose mage, and then you keep Carver (your warrior brother). If you choose rogue or warrior, the opposite happens. Either way you lose a sibling.


Going fem Mage / male Rogue with my two DA2 playthroughs confirmed.

...I was predisposed to do that anyway, as I went male Mage / fem Rogue in DA:O, but for some reason I have a preference for interaction between opposite-gendered siblings, perhaps because I have two sisters myself, and having someone of the opposite gender as a sibling to comment on my romantic selections sounds hysterical and close-to-life.

Also my over-protective obligation to shield my sister(s) will inevitably extend to my DA2 playthrough.

...And I will never play as a Warrior just because.

(Actually I will never play as Warriors because they're boring as shit. Does DA actually change this? Please tell me DA2 actually changes this.)

To those playing the DA2 demo, or those just "in the know" about DA2 in general: What is the supporting cast looking like? Are there sufficient romantic options for each gender? Sufficient alternative-sexuality options? Are there still enough elves and dwarves so the experience doesn't feel too human-centric? Do you get a horned quanari companion at one point?

So many questions.

Also, I've had to settle on the PS3 version because my computer's overtaxed as it is, although I'm reasonably certain it could (barely) play DA2. There's a point where your computer is just graphically capable enough to play the game, but not graphically capable enough to actually play it well, where I think the console version technically becomes the superior choice. I can play ME2 on my PC (and had to before it came out for PS3), but it lagged sometimes, there were frequent audio issues, occasional crashes, and the graphics weren't quite what they could be on a 1080p HD TV.

[Bells]

The demo makes it pretty clear that as a Male you will Shagg the Pirate Lady, it's cool, cause she is all rogue and hot and stuff... or something.

Actually... i think she is the one that will come after you, she is pretty forward with that.

But... yeah... the Demo makes that one pretty clear. She is cool though, her daggers float behind her back. That's just how awesome she is...

[Krylo]

Isabella's bi, just like she was in origins.

I've kind of avoided much game info other than playing the trailer and like one thread on the Bioware forums where Gaider was posting, though, so that's all I really know.

[Solid Snake]

Isabella's back?
That's pretty awesome news in and of itself.
It's too bad my characters never managed to snare a fling with her in Origins.

[Marc v4.0]

She's your sister. She dies if you choose mage, and then you keep Carver (your warrior brother). If you choose rogue or warrior, the opposite happens. Either way you lose a sibling.

I do kind of hope that the actual game gives us a little more time with the family in Lothering, though. It felt like the beginning could really be improved by seeing some family time before the fighting. Like they did with the human noble origin in DA:O. Let you see the family before murdering them. So you care.

And it might, it's pretty obvious that a good amount was skipped over after that to get us to Isabella.


ALSO: I've had a little more time with the PS3 version. Quit at the cut after talking to Flemeth, 'cause I felt I had done enough to see the differences.

PC version is superior.

Combat: The combat for consoles works better on consoles than the tactical combat of the PC would/did, but the tactical PC combat is still the superior experience over all. Further, on the PC version I push the '-' key and use a healing potion, or the '=' key for a stamina/mana potion... or just click on the icons, right there on the bottom bar. On the Console I have to hold down a button, select it from a wheel, and hit x. It's not MUCH more of a pain, but enough of one to use as an example of how the PC is more fluid. Or the fact that to use more than three abilities I have to hold down a button to bring up my alternate 'hotkeys'. It's a good mechanic in that it allows you to quickly use up to six bar items (as opposed to three), but it's still inferior to the PC, where I can have ten at the push of a button, and more at the click of a mouse.

Graphics: Jaggies, and dark. The PC version, on a higher end machine (mine) was much smoother, much brighter, and much sharper. Everything felt more fluid and was easier to follow.

HUD: The HUD on the Console is, frankly, huge and in the way. The minimap somehow manages to use up more of my screen than I would like, while simultaneously showing me next to nothing. Meanwhile, the 'here's how you do shit' messages always managed to cover it completely. And then there's the power... flower... thing, that tells me what powers are on what buttons. It's huge and kind of annoying. The power bar on the PC, which holds over 20 abilities at high res, is far far far less obtrusive despite being more functional. This is most likely due to the fact that the Console Versions are a lower resolution than the PC version (assuming high end machine), which leads back to the PC being superior visually.

Menus: Do feel more cluttered on the console than on the PC. Again, resolution blah blah blah. But the whole thing felt much more claustrophobic and cluttered.


ALL AND ALL, I think they did a very good job of porting the game, don't get me wrong. They did better than I could have ever expected from anyone in so far as porting a tactical RPG over to console goes. And by making it an Action RPG at that. It's a completely different genre depending on whether you get it on console or PC.

Bravo bravo, Bioware.

However, in my opinion, the PC version is still the far superior version in pretty much every way. I think the console version will be a much bigger hit this time around, and do much better in reviews and in practice, but the PC version is definitely where I'm staying.

Which is good, 'cause I pre-ordered it last night before playing it on console.

Well, superior unless you can't run it on your PC and are not a fan of tactical RPGs at all (me). But subjectivity is subjectivity, I prefer an Action RPG. I didn't really notice any jaggedness or darkness, and while I do have my TV set pretty bright, I'm no more then a few feet away from it and it is an xbox-huge TV. That could be because of internal differences in consoles though.

[Krylo]

I COULD try it on the 360 too, but I think it's probably just stuff I noticed because I ran it on PC first.

Some of it might be that I have an old SD TV, too.

[Kim]

I was playing it on an HDTV and it looked decent. Far from great, but certainly better than Origins.

[Jagos]

Ok, got it on console. I can see where Seil is complaining about the combat. It's pretty button mashy. It can't really be compared to like, GoW or DMC or whatever, because there's no combos. Just x x x x x oh, hey, I can push square now.

It's still not as bad as he was saying, and definitely fits a console better than the tactical mouse clicky shit on the PC, but I also definitely prefer the PC's control scheme.

They were making a better mousetrap (http://www.destructoid.com/building-a-better-rpg-hands-on-dragon-age-ii-s-intro-194232.phtml)

[Aldurin]

Played the demo, seems cool but I don't like the delay on reusing skills. While I'm waiting for them to recharge I'm either running to avoid damage or mashing the x button while I watch my allies' health bars dwindle.

I do admit that I like the persistent blood splatters on the characters.

[mudah.swf]

What I don't get is why there are cooldowns if it's not an MMO. Why bother? Wouldn't an MP system be enough for balance purposes?

[Krylo]

What I don't get is why there are cooldowns if it's not an MMO. Why bother? Wouldn't an MP system be enough for balance purposes? I have never played an isometric RPG.

FTFY.

Alternatively: It's for the same reason that there is a cooldown in mmos. If you could roll into every battle and just spam mighty blow or fireball or whatever until you were OoM and then quaff a mana pot and go at it again, every single battle would be over in seconds.

Plus, it provides a different kind of cost than a pure mana cost. Namely, opportunity cost. If you use this ability now, can you use it in thirty seconds when you might need it more? If you've got pots, the answer is a clear yes, without pots, you're forced to think more tactically than 'welp, I got potions, no problems'.

Not having cool downs would be basically terrible.

[mudah.swf]

I've played a handful of isometric RPGs and none of them have had cooldowns, although some were turn-based admittedly. I don't really see the NEED for it in an RPG that isn't WoW and is primarily single-player but then again, different strokes etc.

Another thing that bugs me, or just makes me giggle is how positioning didn't seem to matter at all in the demo. I played a Rogue and marvelled at how I could right click an enemy from practically any range and he'd just run up to them and slash without any further input.

I do understand that cooldowns was probably the easiest way to balance skills in this game, but I personally think it slows the game down and would rather that something else be used. That something could, perhaps, be going the whole hog with the action-game stuff and giving attacks different speeds, recovery times etc.

[Krylo]

They already pissed off the core fanbase just actioning it up as much as they have, which seems dumb to me, but.

And yeah, you can select an enemy to attack regardless of range. There's the issue of getting there, though, if you're under fire from archers/whatever else. Just like in the original. That's generally how this kind of game works, whether Baldur's Gate, KotoR, or Dragon Age.

[mudah.swf]

I personally think that Bioware should just go all the way and make a pure action game, with this and ME2 demonstrating that they really want to. Unless they've done so already?

What weirds me out is that they've gone in this direction at all. Wasn't DA1 meant to be a callback to the oldschool, BG-esque RPGs? Why try to abandon that when it was largely successful? I just don't geddit :s

[Marc v4.0]

It didn't play well on the console, and pretty much fuck the PC market because they are slaves to the console gods

[Krylo]

The PC version still plays almost exactly the same as DA1. The only difference is the inability to zoom out to a top down view (which wasn't that useful in DA1, anyway, because you couldn't scroll as far as you could see), and that everything moves a little faster.

It's only on the console that they went more actiony.

And ME2 is already basically a cover based shooter with RPG elements.