Final Fantasy VIII is actually pretty okay you guys.

[Gregness]

So, I'm sort of confused about why everyone seems to have a massive hate-on for this game. Granted, I'm only on disc three so perhaps all the suck is in the second half, but the first two discs have been pretty ace. The game has some of Nobuo Uematsu's (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wholevuBzEA) best work (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5f_VBd_17M&feature=related) and the main problems I can see are regarding the consistency of the play experience and the fact that some parts just don't live up to their potential.

As far as consistency goes, I will say with certainty that the first few hours of the game beat the snot out of most other RPG's I've played (though it helps that "the landing" is playing through most of the Dollet mission). But then the parts after are passable, but nothing special. The game picks up again at the ends of the first and second disks when you attempt to assassinate the Sorceress and fight Galbadia Garden respectively.

For living up to potential, what I mostly mean is that some of the QTE-esque things seem to suffer from being ridiculously unresponsive. Now, I'm playing with a keyboard on an emulator so that may just be a problem with my interface and not reflect on the intended experience, but I doubt it. The worst offender I've come across is when you fight Galbadia Garden at the end of the second disk you end up suspended from a zip line fighting with an enemy soldier. Now, you're each trying to knock the other off while an FMV battle rages behind you. This idea on its own? Fucking awesome. The problem is it gets completely shat on by clunky controls.

Anyway, I'll be playing this for the next couple weeks or so, and I'll keep you updated on my overall impressions.

[Krylo]

Yeah, no, that section is terrible with a controller too.

ALSO, aren't you at the super dumb plot reveal yet? I guess maybe not because you didn't mention it and that is the kind of thing you always mention when talking about FF8 because Jesus Christ.

ALSO PART TWO THE ALSOING, the leveling system is retarded as fuck in that you actually get weaker by leveling. You probably haven't noticed yet because the game hasn't opened up to let you grind, but basically when you level up so does EVERY SINGLE ENEMY, bosses included. The difference is that bosses get better stat gains on level than you do.

You can mitigate this, obviously, through junctioning, but you can junction just fine at level 5 or whatever you start at as well, get just as large a boost, and basically make yourself a god amongst mortals by not leveling. Alternatively you can keep your level pushed down until you get a certain GF who gives you extra GF bonus level slots, and some other GFs that give you good level up bonuses, attach the two together, etc. etc. get decent levels.

But a person playing the game like a normal human being might will eventually hit some spots where they think 'oh hey, this is kinda hard, I guess maybe I should level some more or something' and then they will go grind a bit, only to find that things have actually gotten harder.

Edit: And speaking of the junctioning system, someone at Square needs a kick square in the balls. "Hey guys," he must have said, "Let's put in all these awesome spells, but BUT, let's also make it so that ACTUALLY CASTING ANY gimps the fuck out of your character!" And then he laughed and laughed.

[greed]

I think most people's problems stem from

1. the (Disc 2 or 3 spoiler, I forget, so you might not have reached it yet) amnesia plot point. Even I admit that was painful.

2. The fact that the game's system is easy to break in either direction, making it too hard if you grind levels, or by far the easiest FF if you understand it without even going into the real cheatery bullshit you can pull.

Personally I like it, I like the art, the monster/esper design is pretty much the series' best outside of XII, the locations are good but no better than the FF average (even 13 had great looking areas even if you couldn't do shit in them). The character design, not so much. I enjoy messing with the character building, the battle system is the best version of ATB they've done (though I prefer X's turn based system, but I'm odd like that) and Triple Triad is still the gold standard for persistent game long side quests that don't involve fighting. On the other hand this was my first FF and first RPG that wasn't a SNES action RPG and I'd got my last of them like 3 years before so I'm a little biased.

[Krylo]

Gonna be honest, I actually really hated Triple Triad. The basic rules were pretty fun, but when shitty rules started to spread and you had to either go out of your way to control that/push it back and do all this micro managing, or have the game become fucking terrible forever, and just uuuuuuuuugh.

FFIX's card game wasn't nearly as good at the base, but it stayed consistently fun, at least.

Also: I too prefer FFX's turn based system. I liked that it predicted turns to the side and different abilities took more/less time allowing you to plan out a round or two in advance and alter moves to try and get your healer to move before the monster etc.

[Kim]

I feel like FFVIII's world had a lot of potential, and there are a lot of cool ideas there. But between AMNESIA'D, junctioning, and a shitty shitty leveling system, and then an even dumber plot twist later on I just couldn't handle it. Honestly, the game has a lot of pretty solid ideas but it executes all of them in the worst way possible.

ALSO: Squall's an annoying shit.

[Flarecobra]

8 had some good music, but just did not hold my attention past the first disk.

And I'll third FFX's turn-based system as being very good.

[Kim]

Yeah, X straight-up has the best turn based system of any FF and even beats out a lot of other turn based systems from other franchises.

[greed]

Isn't it the only turn based FF other than the Tactics games?

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Triple Triad would have been fun if not for the fact that you can quickly get basically an unstoppable hand and there is no real challenge to it anymore. This is why I liked and mostly left the rules because they instituted a bit more challenge to it. And once you have master the same and plus rules you can absolutely destroy the computer and it is much more satisifying to outstrategy him rather than win because my hand is all character cards and they have like 6 bats or something.

As others have said you don't seem to have reached the worst part. You'll know when you get there and that pretty much killed the game for me from there.

The other annoying thing- I died on the first fucking fight cause I was running around the garden- saw a training centre so I went in there, first up I had the T-Rex who is a reasonable fight even when you know what youa re doing, are junctioned and have some levels. For the first fight when youd on't know the system, don't have any equipment I think it killed me in like 2 hits or something.

FFX battle system was easily the best in any FF I've played.

[Kim]

Isn't it the only turn based FF other than the Tactics games?

Hush now. FF1 was turn based.

[Melfice]

I never had much problem with the gameplay, but found the story just meandered on.
I got bored with it at the disc change, (un)happily coinciding with the whole stupid plot point. (Which, while stupid, I have far less problems with than most of the people who dislike the game)

I just found the pacing to be really annoying.

[Jagos]

I feel like FFVIII's world had a lot of potential, and there are a lot of cool ideas there. But between AMNESIA'D, junctioning, and a shitty shitty leveling system, and then an even dumber plot twist later on I just couldn't handle it. Honestly, the game has a lot of pretty solid ideas but it executes all of them in the worst way possible.

ALSO: Squall's an annoying shit.

If Square ever released a game in the 90s, it was going to be half-assed.

(FF7 -> Aeris, Xenogears -> Disc 3 & 4...)

[Krylo]

What was half assed about Aeris?

Also, Xenogears and Chrono Cross got the shit treatment because their budgets were slashed all to hell and redirected into FF8.

[greed]

If Square ever released a game in the 90s, it was going to be half-assed.

(FF7 -> Aeris, Xenogears -> Disc 3 & 4...)

Chrono Trigger and FF6 seem pretty full assed. FFT as well....

So does FF7 really, what was half assed about Aeris?

[Jagos]

Her resurrection. No, I'm not a Square nut, but I have to acknowledge that 7 is an incomplete game.

CT was a LOT more complete than the disc based games.

[Krylo]

FFT had pretty shitty localization, to be fair.

Edit@Jagos: Deciding to cut a plot point, perhaps at a very early point of development =/= half-assed or even incomplete. And there's no actual proof that she was ever supposed to resurrect.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Why would she be resurrected? That seems pretty stupid.

[Jagos]

You SPOONY BARD!

Why would she be resurrected? That seems pretty stupid.

Link (http://www.kuponut.com/games/ff7/aeris_death.html)

[Kim]

Why would Aeris be resurrected? Why?

[Krylo]

Yeah, except none of that is actual empirical evidence at all. The 'theory' has been around as long as the game has been out, and basically comes down to a bunch of people not liking that she died and grasping at straws.

[Kim]

I don't think not doing something incredibly stupid with the plot, for whatever reason, reflects poorly on a game.

[Jagos]

Why would Aeris be resurrected? Why?

I'm just saying that they never finished it one way or the other. It's not about her being resurrected, it's the plot threads that were never finished because Square rushed in the final few hours to get the game out the door.

[Krylo]

There were no plot threads left hanging. The only thing they have is some dialogue left in that you can only access with a game shark. Which might not even point to resurrection so much as them not doing all the writing entirely in order.

[Specterbane]

I'd say FF VIII was over all a good game, but it did take me like five or six new game start-ups over the course of years to actually beat the game on my own. It just seemed to drag on a bit, but there were a lot of cool things that were in the game world.

The game can be broken in SOOOO many ways though. Either with getting refine abilities to get high level spells very early in the game (I had 100 tornado spells to junction on everyone maybe half way through the first disk). Or by keeping one party with low levels and only leveling up one set of people, thus you can keep the average level of the party that the enemy level is based off of low by including on low level character as fodder for the enemies. OR by keeping you characters at low health and waiting jogging between characters quickly until their limits come up, this is especially game-breaking with Aura.

But I have to say that it has one of the best realized love stories of the FF franchise that I can think of. Even if Squall is whining about his mascara the whole damn time.

[Gregness]

Well, I've already had most of the major plot points spoilered for me (sort of) because I've been following this pretty fantastic rewrite. (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?428367-Final-Fantasy-VIII-The-Altimate-Rewrite-Part-I&p=9709874.) So, my reaction to the plot point in question was more like "Damn, that really was out of left field."

As for the battle system, I gathered some broad pointers while reading the rewrite above and so while I haven't been trying to break the system in half, I make it a point to draw as much new magic as I can when I find it. Right at the end of the second disk, one of the monsters was running around with flare, so I put it to sleep and drew 200 copies out of it. Then I junctioned Zell's str with 100 flares and watched him kick the shit out of absolutely everything with his limit break. The Sorceress was actually incredibly easy both times I fought her 'cause I had carbuncle junctioned to squall and she spent the whole fight dispelling me while we kicked her ass into the next disk. I actually like the idea behind this battle system. In theory it means you never have to grind at all, which can be a huge pain in some of the older RPG's. The problem I think is they didn't strike the proper balance needed to ensure that people who don't optimize aren't cockblocked on all future progress.

This actually brings me back to the point I made originally (and a few other people have mentioned now) about this game having incredible potential marred by flawed execution.

Edit: a tonberry kicked my ass while I was trying to figure out the puzzle in Odin's tower thing after I hadn't saved in an hour or so. EFFffff-.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Man drawing magic is a massive waste of time. Not recommended.

[Gregness]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure there's at least a half dozen things I could be doing to squeeze out every little advantage I can but I'm not really trying to break the game in half if I don't need to.

Also, in the shumi village does anyone know what all this stones business is about? I've got a few of the life stones in my inventory, but I can't seem to find the blue stones. The NPC they pointed me to says he thought they had some in stock, but I've searched the place and haven't found a damn thing.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Man I ran round that Shumi village for ages and don't remember what I got but I remember it wasn't worth the effort. It's nothing plot related or anything and you get a not massively useful item if I remember.
You mentioned checking your inventory- all the stones are in the village and you got to walk up to them and push X. The one that he mentioned is in his inventory is on the same screen that he is on. Just find a blue stone on the screen and walk up to it and hit buttons. You may need to elave screen and come back again.

But I mean if you're not trying to break the game I still wouldn't waste time drawing magic. Buy some items, transform them into magic, far faster than drawing and still make you easily powerful enough to stomp the game.

[Flarecobra]

The Blue Stone: The large blue rock behind the statue.

And you get a Phoenix Pinion.

[Specterbane]

If I remember right the Shumi Village is a fetch quest that only has you find things around the village to be used. So if they have it "in stock" it would be in some store house. I think that's how that one worked.

And yeah, drawing magic is almost completely a time sink once you get refine abilities on your GFs, then you just get higher and higher magics and junction yourself to the point where you'd kick the shit out of Heracles if he so much as looked at you a way you didn't like. I've got mixed feelings about that on a whole.

[Gregness]

Hmm, refining is one of those things I haven't been doing. I've been favoring getting extra junction slots and drawing the magic I need, but since the refines are need so few AP to learn, maybe I'll just suck it up and get them.

ALSO: I'm on the third disk and I still haven't found all the spare parts I need to upgrade most anyone's weapons past the one they start with. I'm still using squall's revolver for one. Are all of those things monster drops or is there some super secret storehouse I missed?

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Most of the early ones come from monster drops/card refining, most of the later ones come from rare monster drops/rare card refining.
But you should have enough to at least remodel a few times from just walking around. Try refining your cards.

[Nique]

Man drawing magic is a massive waste of time. Not recommended.


Except no becuase that's a crucial part of how you make your characters more powerful?

On the game overall; Yes there are angsty and broken plot points, but if the quality of a game is mostly based on how much fun it is to play, then, for me, Final Fantasy VIII is a really good game.

[Kerensky287]

Except no becuase that's a crucial part of how you make your characters more powerful?

As they were just saying for the past page or so, refining is a FAR better way to get junction magic than drawing.

On the game overall; Yes there are angsty and broken plot points, but if the quality of a game is mostly based on how much fun it is to play, then, for me, Final Fantasy VIII is a really good game.

I'm a little torn on FF8. On the one hand, it had a TON of potential - the story had an incredibly solid grounding (as evidenced by the rewrite Gregness linked) and the concept of junctioning is very, very cool. They just fucked it all up with BAM AMNESIA, a useless love interest/female protagonist, and a very broken implementation of the junction system.

Aside from that, the music in FF8 is among my favorite in the entire series (and that really says something) and the airship you get is boss.

EDIT:

I'm on the third disk and I still haven't found all the spare parts I need to upgrade most anyone's weapons past the one they start with. I'm still using squall's revolver for one. Are all of those things monster drops or is there some super secret storehouse I missed?

If I remember correctly, a lot of them need to be dropped/stolen from monsters, but there are also a few items you need to refine. Squall's Lionheart requires pulse ammo, for example, and I don't think you can find that easily - you have to use... uh, Tool/Ammo RF or something. I haven't played in a while.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

As I said, buy/turn monsters into items, refine items/card. Faster, more effective. Like maybe if you want to get to maximum power you have to draw some spells but I didn't draw at all last playthrough and was a million times more powerful than everybody else and completed the game in a fraction of the time if I was drawing.
And off the top of my head most of the best spells can be gotten by refining pretty quickly. Best way to survive first disk with no troubles- learn the cure magic refining thing, buy 5 tents for each character- refine them into 20 curaga each- blammo like 3000 HP for everyone, you're pretty much invulnearable first disk.

[Kim]

So here's a question, if bosses get stronger the more you level and get stronger faster than you, is the game balanced in such a way that the more time you spend not levelling the easier the game gets? Like the next boss is easier than the last one because the next boss is statted under the assumption I did a bunch of leveling.

[Kerensky287]

So here's a question, if bosses get stronger the more you level and get stronger faster than you, is the game balanced in such a way that the more time you spend not levelling the easier the game gets? Like the next boss is easier than the last one because the next boss is statted under the assumption I did a bunch of leveling.

Not really. They don't go "Oh, you should be level 20 by now, since you're only level 10 let's make it easier for you." It's all just mathematical formulas to make sure that the enemies scale with you... for some reason. (Why would anyone ever think that was a good idea?)

The increased stat gains are probably there just to make sure you're using the junction system.

Actually, now that I think about it, they have the experience system... they have enemies whose strength is proportional to your level... and then they have the junction system, which is completely unattached to both levels and monster growth. So really, the ONLY thing in the entire game that matters with respect to character progression is the junction system, which is easily exploitable if you use refining (hell, even if you don't). Why would they ever do that? Why bother having levels in the first place if you're just going to make them completely irrelevant? There is NOTHING in the game that levels have any bearing on whatsoever.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

I do know that bosses only learn their moves at set levels so if you keep under those levels the bosses don't learn their killer moves.
As for one boss then the next, I'm rpetty sure they will still get progressively harder because like their stats and HP and things scales based on a band (which you can see somewhat if you scan them I think) ie they have low/medium/high HP and strength and things and that determines what stats they have at various levels so one would assume earlier bosses have all low progressions and later bosses have high progression.

Edit: To add to what Kerensky said ( i misread the assumption a bit there),
how bosses is work is that they have a progression so at any level you can determine their stats based on a formula. They also learn moves at set levels.
So there is no "You should be at this level so I'll scale down difficulty" shenaigans.

[Krylo]

Not really. They don't go "Oh, you should be level 20 by now, since you're only level 10 let's make it easier for you." It's all just mathematical formulas to make sure that the enemies scale with you... for some reason. (Why would anyone ever think that was a good idea?).

Technically correct, but actually wrong for the question asked. A boss WILL be easier if you don't level, and the game DOES get easier the less time you spend leveling, as that you'll be able to draw/refine better magic as you progress through the game, even if you don't level.

Meanwhile, junctions give flat boosts not percentage boosts.

So, let's say a boss gets like 10 strength per level (simplistic and not how it really works, but whatever, close enough proximation) and you get 20 strength by 50 by junctioning firaga (again, not the right numbers, but).

Now along the way to his boss you have the ability to draw firaga, or get an item to refine into it, or both. So you do. And stick it on your character.

If you fight this boss at level 5 it will have 50 strength and you will have 50 strength + your levels.

If you fight this boss at level 10, however, it will have 100 strength... you will still have 50 + your levels (And you don't even reliably get 1 of any stat per level without GF level boosts).

Combined with the fact that the lower level boss is going to have fewer moves to use?

Yes, bosses will be a fuckton easier if you aren't at the 'recommended' level when you face them.

And yes, the recommended level outpaces your level quickly if you spend all your time doing your best to not level.

Edit: And levels aren't irrelevant. They're detrimental, because enemies don't scale even to you. They scale better than you.

Edit2: I once fought ultima weapon with a level 10ish group. I beat the living piss out of it. It wasn't even a little hard.

[Kim]

Krylo gets it.

[Krylo]

If you don't level at all the difficulty curve looks kinda like a V or U, with the end being just a bit harder than the beginning. You start at about normal difficulty, then bosses drop off in difficulty as your characters get stronger comparatively from magic junctions, and then it starts to ramp up in difficulty again after you've gotten past the point where you can get basically every spell, and the end boss/ultima weapon is probably a little harder than the first couple of real bosses.

[Nique]

As I said, buy/turn monsters into items, refine items/card. Faster, more effective. Like maybe if you want to get to maximum power you have to draw some spells but I didn't draw at all last playthrough and was a million times more powerful than everybody else and completed the game in a fraction of the time if I was drawing.
And off the top of my head most of the best spells can be gotten by refining pretty quickly. Best way to survive first disk with no troubles- learn the cure magic refining thing, buy 5 tents for each character- refine them into 20 curaga each- blammo like 3000 HP for everyone, you're pretty much invulnearable first disk.

As they were just saying for the past page or so, refining is a FAR better way to get junction magic than drawing.

I'm not convinced you can accomplish as strong a stock of spells as one would want early in the game through refining or that this would be any faster than drawing. I'm not opposed to be proven wrong though!

and a very broken implementation of the junction system.


I would argue that the 'broken' game features could be perceived as a way to give players more options, though they do appear to be somewhat accidental. Still, hella fun to level up Squall and no one else.

[Specterbane]

The thing with Junctions is that it doesn't offer choice, but a calculation. There's an optimum build for all the best magics and for where they go. And there's an optimum GF set-up so everyone can junction everything.

I suppose you could say pretty easily that the only things that make the character's different are their weapons and their limit breaks in this because of the junction system. Which I don't think is necessarily a good or bad thing. On the one had you can use which ever characters you like to hear the dialog of without worrying about the mechanics too much, on the other it leaves them under developed and set pieces. I guess that's a matter of perspective there.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

I don't remember allt he details but I know on Disc 1 I was stocking Curagas for HP, Quakes, Demis for various stats, all the other best stats just from items and card refinements without doing anything special- this does take into account you playing the card game for shits and giggles, if you don't like the card game it probably is about the same/bit longer than drawing. Heaps less boring than drawing.

[Krylo]

I would draw by setting the controller under the console so the x-button was held down with the battle menu set to 'remember' draw. Then just did something else for awhile.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Re characters difference- there really was no character difference. I had 3 junction setups.And I would just pass these around to whoever I was using at the time. It meant the characters had no intrinisic differences which was kind of lame.

Actually the most annoying thing in this game was when it would deequip all my junctions, generally when going between laguna sections. And I would spend ages working out my optimal junctions and then suddenely- hahaha, you got to do it all over again.

[Fifthfiend]

So, I'm sort of confused about why everyone seems to have a massive hate-on for this game.

We were overdue for one of these I guess.

EDIT: just imagine I copypasted that quoted sentence again but with tildes on either side and consider my contribution to the thread made.

[stefan]

I think people kind of forget the circumstances of VIII's era. if you took FFVIII and, instead of releasing it in the 90's, released it, say, just after XIII was released (with graphics more in line with contemporary standards,) it would probably be considered a far better game than it is for when it was released.

on a purely general standpoint, VIII fails for two reasons:

1) It was released on the heels of final fantasy VII, which - no matter what you may think about its actual quality - was one of the most acclaimed RPGs of its day and was loved by pretty much everyone, and was one of the games that really brought the idea of "jRPG" into the common gamer's mind. more relevantly, FFVII took the RPG concept and put it into an industrial-punk setting, when most RPGs were still running as far as they could with "generic medieval fantasy," and not only did this change memorably, but did it well. VII was, in every way, the quintessential example of the "tough act to follow." while VIII has its share of mechanical and storytelling flaws, its still better than the vast majority of its contemporaries - it just failed to live up to the ideal that people built around VII.

2) Unfulfilled potential.

if you've ever heard me talk about this game before, you know where this is going.

VIII is a game that, on paper, does everything in its power to be absolutely fucking crazy in all the best ways. The protagonist? a mercenary super-soldier with a sword made of gun and nothing to lose! his allies? similar mercenaries and revolutionaries, including a teacher who can shoot lasers from her eyes and a dude who punches people so hard his biceps burst into flame. their mission is to kill the ass of a witch-queen sorceress who wants to take over the world and become a goddess. along the way, they're mysteriously transported back into the past as outside viewers of the protagonist's father, a goofy reporter and his sidekicks as they go through hell and not!USSR to rescue an innocent girl. their bitchin' ride is a flying battle fortress and, later, a starship shaped like a dragon. along the way, they recruit the gods themselves to aid them in battle and give them magic powers. also, at one point, a literal sea of monsters rains down from the moon.

when you describe it like that, it sounds like if capcom decided to team up with square and make a Devil May Cry RPG. the game itself just . . . doesn't quite live up to it. its like the writers wrote down a list of really awesome ideas they wanted to use, and then an exec walked in, told them to use all of them, and didn't give them enough time to do more than string the ideas together in a sort-of consistent fashion. while the actual game is itself passable, there's enough of an echo of what it could have been that you feel a bit sour.


also, last note. Squall? not whiny. you just have a front row seat to his personal introspection. people remember that part and forget that a large part of Squall's character is that he simply will not tell anyone how he actually feels, until its far too late.

[Fifthfiend]

PS: FF7 was halfassed because its plot was a disjointed mishmash that got dumber the deeper you went, built on repeatedly hitting you with STUNNING REVELATIONS that mostly just called takebacks on the STUNNING REVELATIONS you just got through five minutes ago (or four hours or whatever, that's like five minutes in Final Fantasy time).

Also, too: the ninja character shouldn't need a magical gem to know how to steal shit from people.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

FF7 was only a talented amateur in that regard, FF8 is a master pro.

[Kim]

I think people kind of forget the circumstances of VIII's era. if you took FFVIII and, instead of releasing it in the 90's, released it, say, just after XIII was released (with graphics more in line with contemporary standards,) it would probably be considered a far better game than it is for when it was released.

Ehhhhhhh... Naw. I mean, as someone who totally digs that XIII Versus is biting VIII's style like hella, this statement is just plain untrue. I'm gonna sum up your paragraphs for convenience.

People don't like FFVIII because it wasn't as good as FFVII.Once again, naw. While yes FFVII is a better game, the PSX era was an incredibly awkward one for jRPGs. If they weren't dealing with clunky attempts at evolving jRPG combat, they were clumsily trying to write stories with more depth and twists than the writers were generally experienced with. Final Fantasy during the PSX era was definitely on the side of clumsy stories, and FFVIII combined the clumsy story with clumsy attempts at innovation. I got a bit off-track, but essentially my feelings are that my feelings on FFVIII can't be because FFVII because I'm simply not as fond of FFVII as that assumption would require me to be.


2) Unfulfilled potential.

if you've ever heard me talk about this game before, you know where this is going.

VIII didn't live up to its potential.While I entirely agree on this, I don't think that it's so much that it failed to live up to its potential but that it in failing to live up to its potential you were left with a very mediocre jRPG regardless of potential. From terribly executed plot twists to a mish-mash of poorly thought out battle mechanics it's just not a very good game. While it's not the worst FF, I'd say it's one of the worst ones. If we were to separate the Final Fantasy series into pre-PSX and PSX-and-after, I'd say FFVIII would probably come in last place on the PSX-and-after side. That doesn't mean it's the worst game ever, just that it's pretty low quality for a series that sells itself on being pretty good.

also, last note. Squall? not whiny. you just have a front row seat to his personal introspection. people remember that part and forget that a large part of Squall's character is that he simply will not tell anyone how he actually feels, until its far too late.The front row seat makes him come off as whiny, and I'd say he technically could be considered such, just not openly such? It's been a while so I could be off, but seeing Squall's inner feelings was an absolutely terrible decision from a writing perspective, as it almost always is but in the hands of incredibly competent writers.

[Gregness]

...and a dude who punches people so hard his biceps burst into flame.

I think this is as good a point as any to share my impressions of the limit breaks. That is, by far the coolest of any of the final fantasies I've played (or other games that have tried to this general sort of thing). I like that the limit breaks are freaking bonkers powerful since you only reliably get the option to use them at < 20% hp. There's been more than a few boss fights that've ended with me having one or MAYBE two of my party up at <10% hp and just limit breaking the boss to death. I dunno, that sort of thing is just viscerally satisfying to me. One cause is the limit breaks being badass, sure, the other being that the boss AI seems specifically set up to instagib anyone I raise with a pheonix down.

Anyway, Zell is a gigantic ass kicker. I think this is actually one time where I think playing on a keyboard is actually beneficial to me since it's so incredibly easy to input his attack commands. I typically can get three or four attacks per second which means 15 attacks per break easily (on the short ones). Incidently, what is it that determines how much time you get in his break? Is it consecutive uses in the fight or is it inversely proportional to his remaining HP?

[Ryong]

Man, I was discussing some PSX-era RPGs with a friend one of these days and how I've noticed a lot of people seem to have some kind of reverse nostalgia. I don't see anyone talking about them being good.

Like, really, anyone I talk with goes "Oh fuck no, that game was terrible." except that person has played the game to the end twice.

[Gregness]

While I entirely agree on this, I don't think that it's so much that it failed to live up to its potential but that it in failing to live up to its potential you were left with a very mediocre jRPG regardless of potential. From terribly executed plot twists to a mish-mash of poorly thought out battle mechanics it's just not a very good game. While it's not the worst FF, I'd say it's one of the worst ones. If we were to separate the Final Fantasy series into pre-PSX and PSX-and-after, I'd say FFVIII would probably come in last place on the PSX-and-after side. That doesn't mean it's the worst game ever, just that it's pretty low quality for a series that sells itself on being pretty good.

Eh, I mostly missed the PSX era FF's but I played the first few hours of VII. For comparison, I got a little after the scene where cloud has to escape the shinra building on the motorcycle (that mini game was also pretty clunky if I remember). Anyway, I've not beaten either game yet, but I just found the whole beginning section of FFVIII way more compelling than all the eco terrorism bullcrap in midgar.

EDIT: I realize I didn't quite get to the point. Based on their respective first acts (not a very solid comparison I grant) I'd have to say that unless VII got immensely better after you leave midgard I'll have to give the win to VIII so far.

[Kim]

The number of PSX jRPGs with good gameplay *and* story are pretty heavily in the minority. Of the ones I've played, I'd only really go out of my way to defend Vagrant Story and Parasite Eve. I like Final Fantasy Tactics and Tactics Ogre, but I can't really gauge how much different my opinion would be of the PSX versions since I only played the PSP remakes.

[Nique]

also, last note. Squall? not whiny. you just have a front row seat to his personal introspection. people remember that part and forget that a large part of Squall's character is that he simply will not tell anyone how he actually feels, until its far too late.

My wife's been exploring the concept of Haragei in her Japanesse culture class recently and in learning a little about how Japanesse social interactions are often centered around the idea of implicit communication or leaving things unsaid, it makes me wonder if Squall's constant asides make more sense to a Japanese audience and it just didn't translaste well/ someone didn't translate it well into English. Just a thought.

[Fifthfiend]

The number of PSX jRPGs with good gameplay *and* story are pretty heavily in the minority. Of the ones I've played, I'd only really go out of my way to defend Vagrant Story and Parasite Eve. I like Final Fantasy Tactics and Tactics Ogre, but I can't really gauge how much different my opinion would be of the PSX versions since I only played the PSP remakes.

I really wish I'd finished Vagrant Story but goddamn the random-stat-boost leveling system got infuriating after a while, it was like JESUS CHRIST NO NOT ANOTHER HEALTH BOOST FUCK YOUUUU

What I played of it owned though, although I guess I would have said that about at least the first, like, half (two-thirds?) of FFVII too.

[Krylo]

The number of PSX jRPGs with good gameplay *and* story are pretty heavily in the minority. Of the ones I've played, I'd only really go out of my way to defend Vagrant Story and Parasite Eve. I like Final Fantasy Tactics and Tactics Ogre, but I can't really gauge how much different my opinion would be of the PSX versions since I only played the PSP remakes.

Dunno about Tactics Ogre, but all they really changed for FFT was the localization. You got shakespearean instead of just flat out poorly translated. Both versions have their charm.

I'd add Legend of the Dragoon to that list as well. Like, the story wasn't super great or anything, and there were some pretty big gameplay issues, but it was also pretty innovative for the time, had some pretty great characters, and was fun as hell as that the issues were mostly balance issues between characters (Meril is best, Kongol is worst), not anything that ruined otherwise fun aspects.

[Kim]

I really wish I'd finished Vagrant Story but goddamn the random-stat-boost leveling system got infuriating after a while, it was like JESUS CHRIST NO NOT ANOTHER HEALTH BOOST FUCK YOUUUU

What I played of it owned though, although I guess I would have said that about at least the first, like, half (two-thirds?) of FFVII too.

Vagrant Story's endgame is hella rad. I can see where you're coming from on the random stat boosts, though I was luckier with it. Inventory system was hella broken, too.

[Specterbane]

Vagrant Story was a great game. I loved the story, but it could get pretty hard some times. I may have just had difficulty with the system when I played it years ago though, I usually just chained Crimson Pain, Raging Ache, and Life Draw and letting my Risk be damned. It worked well and kept me out of menus for a while, but it took for ever to get things to die. And I constantly kept the spell that would negate a spell cast on you, JUST IN CASE some ass hole would cast an instant death spell out of no where that I wasn't ready to block.

I'd actually say FF8 played smoother than Vagrant Story, but that's like comparing apples to oranges. Even comparing plot is very different between the two games, but Vagrant Story's was more compact and filled through I guess.

Still I think FF8 is a solid game that takes more grief than it deserves, but I just can't think of where because I agree with every thing people say about it.

[Kim]

This thread is making me want to play a PSX era jRPG. Now just to pick one...

[Ryong]

Threads of Fate? Legend of Mana?

...Oh, even better, Wild Arms 2. Do it.

[stefan]

This thread is making me want to play a PSX era jRPG. Now just to pick one...

Beyond the Beyond.

because you don't hate the world enough.

[Kim]

Maybe I'll just try a quick and dirty playthrough of FFVIII. Then I can do FFVII.

[Lumenskir]

This thread is making me want to play a PSX era jRPG. Now just to pick one...
The Lunar series still remains my benchmark for a great JRPG.

I guess it depends on how nitpicky you are if it counts as a PSX era one or not though.

[Specterbane]

For the purposes of this thread I don't think Lunar counts. But still great game.

But hey, there's always Thousand Arms (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thousand_Arms).

[Gregness]

There's also Grandia II and Breath of Fire III. Can't remember if those were PSX or PSII or not though...

[MuMu]

Might as well try some Breath of Fire IV

It seriously needs more love.

[Kyanbu The Legend]

There's also Grandia II and Breath of Fire III. Can't remember if those were PSX or PSII or not though...

BoF III was on PSX. Grandia II was on Dreamcast.

[Bells]

Grandia 1 was on PSX though, it was a load of Fun. Also, Breath of Fire 3 and 4 DO need more love.

Also, does Strategy RPG's count? Cause you could always give Front Mission 3 a go.

[katiuska]

I should probably try picking up Vagrant Story again... my problem is just that I actually kind of suck at games--I've been told that if you can't get the hang of chaining you have no business trying to play VS, so after getting my ass kicked a few times by the second boss I was like, "Whelp."

It had nothing to do with the actual quality of the game, I was just really bad at it.

[Julford Hajime]

This thread is making me want to play a PSX era jRPG. Now just to pick one...

Suikoden 2. Suikoden 1 was also for the PSX, but it's a pretty sub-par if not outright bad jRPG (I haven't been able to force myself to finish it, and I LOVE the world story of Suikoden).

Suiko 1 is clunky as all hell and you can tell that they needed more time to polish some areas, but Suiko 2 is the pinnacle of PSX jRPGs in my mind. Granted I still haven't played Vagrant Story/BoF3/LoD, so maybe those are better but that'd really be pushing it.

[MuMu]

I tried replaying Vagrant Story some months ago, but I just don't have the patience for that type of game anymore. The weapons building affinity against monsters, the leveling and the Chain/Magick systems are just too much for me.

I just want to hit things until they die:(

[Kim]

So, if the online guides are leading me true, to really break this game over my knee I need to grind AP until I can refine cards into awesome stuff, then grind card battles with people at the school?

[Gregness]

Yeah, that's the general idea, but I don't see where you get the card refinement abilities at. None of my GF's have the ability to learn that one, unless it's one of the ones that gets unlocked later since I've only just now started to learn my refinement abilities.

[Kim]

Apparently you learn Card-RF from Quetzlcoatl after learning Card.

EDIT: Also learned a ballin' AP grinding trick for the very early part of the game, provided it works.

[Gregness]

That's what I get for going for all the stat junctions first I guess. =8^/

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Stat junctions are pretty much waste. By the end of the game you'll have so many GFs that the statjunctions all overlap. And GFs can only learn a set number of abilities so if you got lots of stat junctions learned you'll have to deete them to learn others and its annoying.
As for breaking it, card refinement does give you ridiculous spells really fast. You don't even really have to grind that much as long as you know who has the rare cards- just go after them.

[A Zarkin' Frood]

I took my time to level up to 99 asap on my second playthrough. Because the game is piss easy as it is. A Problem I have with most RPGs. If they are too hard, just grind, there's nothing encouraging the player to get better or try a new approach, the stats'll take care of everything for you. Now FF8 actually made me Grind to access hard mode, and there's no further leveling, so If I suck I have to change my strategy instead of bullshitting my way ahead. There was no way I could get significantly stronger save for some high-end spells you can only draw from specific locations/monsters that way, which I thought really improved the game, for me at least. Of course, handling it like that, from a designer's perspective is hardly ideal. But I kinda want to see developers ditch the concept of leveling up forever. There's nothing wrong with learning new abilities as you progress, but I don't like my success depending on stats, which I can improve just by beating up lots of doodz, which is time I could spend improving my skills. But the way most RPGs are built there isn't much improving of skills to do anyway.

[Gregness]

Huh, Odin was sort of a pushover. 'Course, triple meltdown will do that I guess.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

You do realise it's impossible to lose to Odin except by time right? He doesn't attack.

[Gregness]

Yeah, I figured that, I just didn't expect him to have so little HP.

Also, fuck Esthar, how do you get into that place?

EDIT: Okay, so I'm discovering that the worst thing about the plot isn't so much the plot itself but that as I get farther in, they start explaining less and less. Now, I'm all for the developers not holding my hand the entire way through the game, but it's another thing when the game wants you to take one specific action for the plot to progress, but there's literally, NO INDICATION as to what that thing is.

For instance, I need to get to Esthar for plot reasons so I spend a good two hours running around the map until I've established there is no direct way for my current mode of transportation to just simply go there. Then, as I've been flying around, I've discovered that my garden/ship can actually jump small distances between islands. THEN I find a place where I might actually apply this to get to Esthar and I'm feeling rather damn clever when I get cockblocked by an invisible wall. Now, invisible walls are worth a rant in their own right, but it's not something unique to FFVIII so I'll ignore it for now. Anyway, I go around looking for a train or any damn thing at all to get me there. Finally, after a bit of this, I'm out of ideas. Then I figure, whelp, the last time I was stuck and had no damn idea where to go, I had a Laguna sequence trigger by going to visit Comatose Rinoa. So I go and visit her and he promptly picks her ass up and gets off the ship and starts walking there? WTF!:mad: I mean, maybe there was some subtle hint somewhere that that was the thing to do? I sure as hell don't remember it if there was.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Hahahaha. Though that is stil not nearly as bad as "Hey I grew up with all you guys but I'm never going to mention it during all our adventures cause no reason".

The whole you can't go to Esthar thing is never really expained as far as I remember. The worst bit is when you are flying around before you know about Esthar and hit the Esthar wlal and don't know what it is. They could have just stuck it behind mountains you couldn't fly over.

[Nique]

The whole you can't go to Esthar thing is never really expained as far as I remember.

Estar is futuretown and they don't want you cavemen stealing all their futuretown technology.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

You don't really work that out till you get there though.

[Specterbane]

You don't really work that out till you get there though.

Exactly, what part of being cavemen didn't you get?

[Dracorion]

To be fair, there really is literally an invisible wall blocking passage to Esthar in the world of FFVIII. Like, it's an actual thing inside the game, not something the developers put there to stop you from cheating your way into Esthar early.

Also, if you take a good look at the world map near FH, you'll see that the road Squall is taking does seem to lead to Esthar. I think, anyway. I haven't played the game in forever, but like you I did spend a lot of time trawling the world map like a chump looking for a way to get there.

Anyway, the thing with the game not telling you what you're doing doesn't go from stupid to stupidly hilarious until you actually get to Esthar. You'll know when it happens, because it is literally the most WTF thing.

[Specterbane]

The whole finding Esthar business reminds me of finding the Temple of the Ancients in FF7. Cause where the hell do I even get the clue as to where it is? I tried to find the clue to it last time I played and couldn't do it for the life of me.

[Kim]

So, apparently the way I wanted to AP farm essentially requires that you've already AP farmed. Seeing as any AP farming I could do at this point would also be EXP farming, I'd rather not. Are there any tricks for farming AP in the early parts of the game, or am I just best off collecting it from bosses here and there? Additionally, what rare cards should I be looking for, and who do I fight for them?

[Dracorion]

Seifer is how you AP farm without EXP farming in the early game.

[Kim]

Actually just heard using the Card ability gets you AP but no EXP. Gonna test it out.

[Gregness]

To be fair, there really is literally an invisible wall blocking passage to Esthar in the world of FFVIII. Like, it's an actual thing inside the game, not something the developers put there to stop you from cheating your way into Esthar early.



Yeah, now that I've seen that I'm slightly less annoyed about getting blocked. Still peeved about the no clues thing though. I mean, if I'm not given any leads as to what to do next, I expect a certain amount of leeway in how I go about progressing.


Also, if you take a good look at the world map near FH, you'll see that the road Squall is taking does seem to lead to Esthar. I think, anyway. I haven't played the game in forever, but like you I did spend a lot of time trawling the world map like a chump looking for a way to get there.

Anyway, the thing with the game not telling you what you're doing doesn't go from stupid to stupidly hilarious until you actually get to Esthar. You'll know when it happens, because it is literally the most WTF thing.


I actually DID go to FH at one point looking for a way to Esthar to see if I could catch a train or something. It made it doubly annoying to see Squall go back there after MANDATORY PLOT THINGY and do basically the exact thing I was thinking of doing in the first place, but wasn't allowed to do.

As for stupidly hilarious, if you mean the space launch, then I just got there and maybe it's just because the LP/rewrite I linked earlier had already spoiled it for me but it didn't seem that far out. They never explicitly say you're going to outer space, but they tell you to go to the lunar gate then ask who's launching. And, at this point it's been established that Esthar is futuretown so I don't mind so much

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Diablos card from betting him gives you 100 black holes which is demis for everyone, good early strength skill.
Get Zell card from his mother which gives you three haste armbands.
The minotaur and sacred cards from the tomb of the unknown king give you quake- which is brutally good and adamantine which are necessary for card modding.
Elemental spells just come from random cards you pick up from people.
Best early HP spell get the cure magic refining skill , refine some cottage into 100 curages each.

Pick up anyh grendels that opponents play- they pretty common (or you can just card mod them) they give you 20 double each well before you can draw it from anyone.
Fungares, bitebugs, jelleyes are all very common too and give you 5 esuna each which give you good status defence.

That ll I remember from the early game. Also make sure to stack up on the best cards so you can win card games later when you start to get ridiculous shit from cards like holy wars.
Get the Quistis card from the Quistis fan club for three GF+40% summons.


Edit: You're missing the ridiculouslouus of the space launch. Holy shit what is all that stuff. At least Esthar invent things in the proper order- I'm looking at the "We can build flying cities but can't make functioning radios despite the former requiring extensive knowledge and manipulation of EM waves"

[Kim]

Pick up anyh grendels that opponents play- they pretty common (or you can just card mod them) they give you 20 double each well before you can draw it from anyone.

There's a boss that gives it to you hella early on and I spammed draw till everyone had 100 double.

[Kim]

oh my god oh my god oh my god 100 esuna on vitality is the most ridiculously broken thing

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Get the minotaur card from Tomb of the King- that'll give you three +60% vit to make it even more stupid.
Re drawing double- drawing from bosses is mean! You have to treat them like bosses. They'llg et sad if you treat them like draw fodder.

[Gregness]

...*SNIP*
Edit: You're missing the ridiculouslouus of the space launch. Holy shit what is all that stuff. At least Esthar invent things in the proper order- I'm looking at the "We can build flying cities but can't make functioning radios despite the former requiring extensive knowledge and manipulation of EM waves"

If I remember correctly there's actually a line thrown in somewhere that explains that there's some sort of strong interferance that has shut down all broadcasts for the last decade or so and so most communication is done with landlines. Apparantly the communication tower in dollet is capable of getting past the interferance which is was why they were there in the first place.

Or something, at least they TRIED to explain shit in the beginning..

NonCon, wait 'till you can get Flares for STR and meltdown on your VIT.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Yet they can control their missiles from long wave pretty well without a massive antenna. Why can't I use whatever frequency they use to do that to broadcast.
Really it seemed to use be lazy writing to cover the fact that good chunks of the story would be obsolete if they all had cellphones. Like "Oh shit , we have to OUTRUN A MISSLE to warn everyone to evacuate the garden!"

[Solid Snake]

Link (http://www.kuponut.com/games/ff7/aeris_death.html)

Psh, the evidence used to support this 'theory' is so terrible.
"Before Aeris dies, you could seduce two characters! Now Aeris is dead and you can only seduce one of them!"

Actually I don't even know why I'm bothering to hide it under spoiler tags because it's absolutely common knowledge by now.

[Krylo]

Actually just heard using the Card ability gets you AP but no EXP. Gonna test it out.

Card's ability to do that is essential for a low level run. Not so much for the AP gain, which IS nice, but rather because of the ability to avoid getting xp from battles that you couldn't normally run from, as the game doesn't let you ALWAYS escape random encounters.

Also: Completely breaking the game requires you to get Cactuar and THEN start leveling. Cactuar lets you put more level up bonuses from your GFs on a character (four I believe), which lets you start adding +4 to 4 stats (or plus like, seven, to one). This means your level ups will actually be better than the monster/boss level ups.

Then you roll on up to island closest to hell, kill off the two people who aren't junctioned and just save, run around, get into a fight. If Odin spawns, enjoy your multiple levels. Repeat up to about level 50ish where you can actually start fighting the level 100 mobs on mostly fair footing even without Odin. Continue up to 100. Junction onto other member, do whole thing over (but this time with your already 100 member helping to take down enemies so you don't have to rely on odin so much). Repeat for every member of your team.

[Solid Snake]

Also FFVIII is such a ridiculously easy game that I don't really understand why there's such discussion over breaking the game mechanics. Like, why even bother making the conscious effort to do so, when it would actually take you less time to simply get the normal EXP whether it 'helps' or 'hurts' you because you're beating the game easily anyway?

In the end, the best justification I can have for FFVIII's "EXP hurts you" argument is that the game is so ludicrously easy that it actually has to get more challenging as you level in order to still find it enjoyable. (Mind you, this is not actually an objectively sound argument in FFVIII's favor, and moreso an argument against the gamers who think it's a system worth breaking anyway.)

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Wouldn't it be more effective to have one character at level 100 but the others as low as you can have them so your effective party level is tiny but you have a level 100 character?

Re snake: Of course FF8 is easy as piss but it's more for the shits and giggles than anything else.

[Krylo]

Wouldn't it be more effective to have one character at level 100 but the others as low as you can have them so your effective party level is tiny but you have a level 100 character?

Re snake: Of course FF8 is easy as piss but it's more for the shits and giggles than anything else.

Yes and no.

Depends on how much time you want to spend unlocking abilities in the castle area. With only one character who, say, can't use items or whatever, the last boss rush is a bit tricky.

Also, other bosses take foreeeeever. I did just that because I got fucking tired of grinding, and beating the iron giant consisted of putting the controller under the console and leaving so I'd just spam attack at him for a half hour.

Edit: Also, this is why I've never actually beaten the game. The last castle is just annoying as hell, and I can never be assed to unlock everything, and then I go up against the last boss with like, no way to heal or something equally stupid, and welp.

[Nique]

Also, this is why I've never actually beaten the game.

:argh:

My wife insisted playing this all the way through using YOUR suggested method of leaving everybody in my party except Squall dead and we beat everything ever in like 5 minutes.

[Gregness]

Malboro's are WAY more hardcore in this game than in FFVI. I need their tentacles for Quistis' whip, but I've had to run from both the ones I've encountered so far. Damn bad breath move launches before any of my attacks have a chance to get off and then all my characters are confused and I can't control them. This is in spite of the fact that I have Esuna junctioned to status defense.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

To be honest I never beat the game either. I still have a save file where I'm ridiculously super powered but I just never got around to doing the last bit.

To beat Malboros you really need 100 confuses on your status defence, that way you can't be confused and you will at least have control of your characters.

[Krylo]

:argh:

My wife insisted playing this all the way through using YOUR suggested method of leaving everybody in my party except Squall dead and we beat everything ever in like 5 minutes.

To be honest I never beat the game either. I still have a save file where I'm ridiculously super powered but I just never got around to doing the last bit.

This, basically. Like, I get to the end castle, and start doing the puzzles, and every single time I'm just like, "Urrrrrrrgh" and then I quit.

I'm glad my method worked out well for you and your wife, though!

Edit: I mean, I urgh a lot of times BEFORE that as well, but it's the last urgh that does it in for me. Just one too many urghs.

[Kim]

I quit there too, last time I played. It really is the worst fucking dungeon.

[Specterbane]

Confuse is a great Stat defense against Malboro's. I think I used Pain myself and did alright though. Either way it's doable.

[Kim]

Get the Quistis card from the Quistis fan club for three GF+40% summons.


I'm hearing that with Diablos Forbid-RF you can actually get 180 triples from Quistis card, which would just break the game to pieces at this point.

[Krylo]

In the end, the best justification I can have for FFVIII's "EXP hurts you" argument is that the game is so ludicrously easy that it actually has to get more challenging as you level in order to still find it enjoyable. (Mind you, this is not actually an objectively sound argument in FFVIII's favor, and moreso an argument against the gamers who think it's a system worth breaking anyway.)

Also: My problem with that is that the enemies leveling with you also makes it super easy to grind levels. So when I got to the brothers, I think was the first time (and a few other areas after) when the game was freshly released and I wasn't looking at guides, I was like, "Guess I'll just grind a bit." You know, like a normal human being might when playing a role playing game and expecting it to work like any other role playing game, of which it is the eighth in a series. Of course grinding didn't work, so I did it a bit more, and it still didn't work, so then I was like 'fuck, well they use quake so...' and then I went and found something to draw a shit ton of floats from. This repeated with a few other bosses along the way.

End result was being level 100 well before Edea's castle thing with pretty shitty gear (no one had their final weapons, for instance) and without the best magic drawn trying to go through her hell castle against things that were statistically better than me in every way, fighting a bunch of mini-bosses, some of which had annoying ass gimmicks, like iron giants fuck you defense, and not knowing what order to unlock powers to make it playable.

So off went the game, deleted went that file.

Few months later I read up on how shit works.

Tried again, got to the end, was blowing through everything, but the minibosses and navigating her hell castle were still annoying as piss, but more in the 'Jesus what a goddamn pointless slog piece of shit this is' as opposed to 'Well let's see if this boss is going to one shot my entire max level party. Yup. Fuck this game,' of the first time. So I decided to just bum rush Edea. Got to Griever before the fact I hadn't unlocked magic or items fucked me. So I quit.

Few months later tried again under more or less the same pretenses. Got to the slog, and quit again.

And that's about the full extent of my experience with FF8.

Edit: I mean the system is completely easy and retarded and stupid if you know how it works, and if you don't it actively punishes you for not knowing how it works. And the story is the worst piece of trash ever so it's not like slogging through for the story is worth it. Honestly, the only reason I tried three times was it was high school, and damnit that was the only US released FF I hadn't beaten other than FF1.

But basically the game is terrible at every point of its execution. From story to every single decision they made with the gameplay mechanics. TThere was literally no part of the game that wasn't executed upon in the worst possible manner. Even Especially the characters. The only half way decent characters in the game were Quistis and Seifer, and one of them goes stupid asshole batshit insane half-way through.

[Kim]

Iron Giant's defense can be nerfed with meltdown or some shit, can't it? Failing that, gravity its health down?

[Krylo]

Yeah, it can. Beside the point though. The point being it was annoying.

Also, you need either magic or draw unlocked to fight him. Preferably draw, as you can draw demi from him and cast it on him. (edit: Also the preferred method for beating Diablo if I remember right)

That, however, requires you to know which order to unlock your abilities in. Otherwise you may have like... just items, or item and limit, or GF commands, or summon or whatever unlocked when you're fighting him and not have Draw or Magic. Or have magic but not have meltdown.

[Gregness]

So, I'm sort of confused about why everyone seems to have a massive hate-on for this game.

*snip*

But basically the game is terrible at every point of its execution. From story to every single decision they made with the gameplay mechanics. TThere was literally no part of the game that wasn't executed upon in the worst possible manner. Even Especially the characters. The only half way decent characters in the game were Quistis and Seifer, and one of them goes stupid asshole batshit insane half-way through.

Gonna have to disagree with you so far Krylo. I mean, I'm not at the stupid ending hell dungeon yet, so there's still time for me to come around I guess, but I actually prefer this one to VII.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

I'm hearing that with Diablos Forbid-RF you can actually get 180 triples from Quistis card, which would just break the game to pieces at this point.

I thought it was TimeMag-RF but yeah, you get 3 +60% vit things and can convert them into 60 triples each.
I always used the 60% vit myself because triples are easy enough to get later but you would stomp the shit out of people if you convert that now.

[Kim]

The shore is a pretty ace place to grind AP I've found, which is rad. Trying to find cards that work for farming magic in general, even before getting Diablos. I'd love some thundagas and shit.

[Krylo]

Get quez's magic refining. Get thunder -> Thundara -> Thundaga. Last time I decided to break the game I had all the aga spells on everyone while Seifer was still around.