"The PC Gaming Idustry Is Biased Toward Gamepad Gamers!" or "Mouse vs. Otherwise"

[Seil]

So here's the thing: I like videogames. They're my fun. I work in a good (the boss is easy going, the pay is nice) but shitty (customers) customer service gig. I guess I should be happy that I have a job, (I am) but customers really, honestly suck. If you're a customer, if you've bought something today: I hate you.

Anyway, like I said, games are fun. That (aside from the hooch) is what I have for release. Steam is great for that (when download times are higher than 15B/s) (I really like the whole bracket thing, can you tell?) So after everyone left TF2 tonight, I played a little Half Life 2. I noticed that the thing had a "Gamepad Enabled" button, and I was like "Immuna enable the shit outta that!" Because I'm a console gamer. Really the only reason I game online is because I have you "fine" people to play with. All my other games - Mirrors Edge, Killzone, Silent Hill, Metal Gear Solid, what have you, I play via PS3. And the PS3 controller really is the shit.

http://media.moddb.com/cache/images/downloads/1/25/24121/thumb_620x2000/sixaxis-controller-2.jpg
Pictured: The Shit.

I have a pink one. (Of course I do, you think I wouldn't?!) It works great! The stuff I play - obviously, because according to The Angry Nintendo Nerd - the most important thing is to be able to play your game. (Excerpt from the review where he swears a bunch) For my PC gaming, I bought a Logitech something or other. I like Logitech because they're cool - they made my first joystick (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQLW0xtAubA&feature=related). Anyway, long story... well, it's still pretty long, I tried to play Half Life 2 via my Logitech game pad. And it wasn't that good. ...It was pretty shit, to say the least. It was an interesting experiment, but it wasn't the best "input method." Suffice to say, Valve is discriminating against PC gamepad users.

That (and it is a really long "that,") the gamepad is useful for other things, like my illegal emulators and roms. Like my Duke Nukem 1 & 2s. Like Jazz Jackrabbit. (God damn Jazz is awesome.) But modern day game makers have a bias against gamepad gamers.

[Premmy]

Did you properly map your buttons or just "inable the shit outta" it? because this might just be you improperly setting up your controller.
Edit:
And it's "Biased Against" not towards

[Seil]

I fiddled around with the sensitivty of the analog sticks, but the button mapping was pretty solid. (I was impressed with the foresight.) (In hindsight, the mapping was what they had on the PS3 controller.)

[Aerozord]

for me its normally what you play. For the most part FPS are better with keyboard and mouse, and I wont even touch a RTS with a gamepad. Though sucks if you ever need to do any platforming.

Being said, restricting movement to 8 directions and removing my ability to continually turn around does still suck. Keyboard is about equal to an old school d-pad, but dual analog has its perks

[akaSM]

I herd you liek your PS3 controller. (http://www.motioninjoy.com/)

With that you can use it to play PC stuff. Also, you can map buttons to keys and mouse buttons and stuff. You can use both USB and Bluetooth (for bluetooth you'll need an EXTRA adapter though, it pretty much takes over 1 adaptor).

And, hey, you know those gamepad enabled games that only support the X360 gamepad? Haven't you thought "Fuck them", I want to use any other controller"?, with that program you can use your PS3 controller to emulate a X360 gamepad.

[Osterbaum]

He doesn't like PS3 controller. He likes The Shit.

[Sifright]

Yea Keyboard and mouse is almost ALWAYS going to be a better input method no matter how you setup your controller.

[greed]

Well not for platformers and shit. Then it's controllers all the way. Fighting games as well (though special arcade pads are better again I understand).

[Sifright]

I dunno about that, platformers can be played only on the keyboard with no difficulty it's not like you don't have access to enough buttons and there is more than enough space for both hands on the keyboard. you just a case of mapping it correctly.

Edit: Plus I did say almost always, I'll admit there are some type of games where it isn't flat out better.

[Krylo]

Platformers are way easier with a controller 'cause of the whole no typo, faster button pressing, blah blah blah thing.

I can't stand playing platformers with a keyboard. It makes me want to murder things.

Luckily I have that ps3 controller thing* linked earlier, and can use that for any games that seem to work better with controllers.

*Might be different thing. Didn't check the link. Does the same stuff, though.

[Amake]

If platformers are just as good with keyboard controls, why do USB control pads sell? Heck, over here SNES controllers still sell for like 50 dollars because people wire them up to connect with PCs and play the shit out of those games that work better if you play with your thumbs.

I gave up on Prototype solely because I couldn't get it to work with a pad. There's just something about a mouse that only works in first person, RTS or menu navigation games.

[A Zarkin' Frood]

Mouse+Keyboard is definitely the way to go for first person games. (And strategy games too I guess.)

Which isn't to say they are unplayable with a gamepad. I just didn't manage to get any first person game to work with my PS2 and PS3 pads on the PC. No problem with the buttons, it's the analog sticks that are kinda weird.

For any other type of game I'd prefer a gamepad over the good old mouse plus gamepad combo any day. Especially since they didn't change the design of the PS3 controller from the PS2 one for a very good reason. Mileage may vary, but it's the best damn gamepad I've ever held.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Real gamers play all games with the powerglove. Nubs.

[Seil]

But it's so bad.

[Yrcrazypa]

I honestly have an easier time playing platformers with a keyboard than I do with a gamepad. Probably has something to do with my thumbs only really being used to hit a few buttons most of the time, so they aren't coordinated as much as my other fingers.

[Revising Ocelot]

Compare playing a game like Super Metroid (hur hur that's illegal) with a keyboard instead of a gamepad. You could feasibly be holding run, switching between directions, and pressing up/another key for directional aiming while space jumping around with one more key. As well as holding yet another key to ready missiles and pressing one more to... well, fire them.
On a keyboard that's just about impossible. And even for just a few of those actions at a time, it's painful. A controller is so much easier to pull off simultaneous actions where precision pointing via mouse isn't required.


On the other hand, I once tried Portal 2 on an X360. Trying to place precision portals on surfaces just a medium distance away was just aggravating compared to with a mouse. And the prospect of playing Starcraft 2 with a controller makes me giggle.


TLDR; kb+m & controller both have their advantages depending on the game format, no matter what Seil or the "glorious PC master race" may say.




Incidentally, I've been seeing a -lot- more frothing PC zealots in the past two years, far more than the formerly-rabid console wars these days. Probably because the PS3/360 are rather homogeneous while the Wii has no hooks for fanboys to latch onto.

[Seil]

Compare playing a game like Super Metroid (hur hur that's illegal) with a keyboard instead of a gamepad. You could feasibly be holding run, switching between directions, and pressing up/another key for directional aiming while space jumping around with one more key. As well as holding yet another key to ready missiles and pressing one more to... well, fire them.
On a keyboard that's just about impossible. And even for just a few of those actions at a time, it's painful. A controller is so much easier to pull off simultaneous actions where precision pointing via mouse isn't required.

Theoretically, I could be holding ten different buttons. What I'm saying is that a game pad feels more natural to me, and it doesn't work quite right in some PC games.

[greed]

Also the fact that most big releases are primarily aimed at the consoles these days with PC ports rather than the other way round. So a lot of PC fanboys are getting crazy about games being "hobbled" to fit the console restraints on RAM and what not. Personally I like it, it means I haven't needed to upgrade my PC for years because almost every game is built to run at least pretty well on a 360.

Edit: This was to Revolving, not ninja Seils.

[akaSM]

Personally I like it, it means I haven't needed to upgrade my PC for years because almost every game is built to run at least pretty well on a 360.

This^

Still, games that are ports may run awful compared to games that are properly optimized for a PC.

My PC runs Devil May Cry 4 beautifully on high/UltraHigh settings at 720p, mostly at 60 FPS and goes as low as 40 FPS in a certain forest that has a lot of lights/shadows, still, I gotta run Sonic & Sega All Star Racing with the low detail models, no shadows AND at 600p to get a nice 60fps :/

[Azisien]

Platformers, Fighters, traditional RPGs, Bullethell - Gamepad

Strategy, FPS, TPS, RTS - Keyboard & Mouse

Dance Rhythm - Yo Ass

I dunno if this is about the hardware the peripherals run on, but it's a pretty simple concept for me. PCs are solidly more expensive to own, but they simply run games better with the proper investment. Console hardware is outdated a year after it comes out, if that, while PC hardware is like an avalanche of money-gobbling advancements happening all the time. It comes down to the level of luxury you're willing/able to afford. I guess the PC can do other PC-esque stuff better than consoles, like surf the internet, post on forums, social network, email, etc. The consoles have a few functions like that but I've found them clunky and hard to use by comparison. This is probably environmental, but consoles are usually better for streaming/playing movies, since I like watching movies at a fair distance on a couch where my consoles tend to be setup, versus a foot and a half from my face. Yup.

[Magus]

Don't play FPSes with a gamepad. Makes it difficult to get headshots and so on.

[Aldurin]

I herd you liek your PS3 controller. (http://www.motioninjoy.com/)

Oh fuck yes, time to see if I'll do better with my gamepad in FPS on my computer.

Oh yeah, and I played Portal 2 both on PS3 and on Steam (because I get the steam version free with the PS3) and I find the keyboard+mouse setup to be awkward (I don't like not being able to pull a consistent and precise radial camera turn, which is downright difficult with the mouse).

[Ryong]

Compare playing a game like Super Metroid (hur hur that's illegal) with a keyboard instead of a gamepad. You could feasibly be holding run, switching between directions, and pressing up/another key for directional aiming while space jumping around with one more key. As well as holding yet another key to ready missiles and pressing one more to... well, fire them.
On a keyboard that's just about impossible. And even for just a few of those actions at a time, it's painful. A controller is so much easier to pull off simultaneous actions where precision pointing via mouse isn't required.

I'm pretty sure that varies from person to person. I know I can do what you just pointed out on a keyboard, but I doubt I can do it with a gamepad. You try playing Megaman Zero on a gamepad and charging both weapons at once with the conventional button setup.

Like, the only problem I can see is stuff with analog stick sensitivity and some fighting game motions. ARPGs and MMOs with a fuckton of hotkeys also need keyboards.

[Kyanbu The Legend]

These threads usually NEVER end peacefully. But against my better judgment, I'd have to agree it varies from person to person and depends on the game.

For my example I'll use "Cosmic Break" personal favorite free-to-play with truly optional premium benefits PC MMO I'm currently playing.

With the Key board and mouse it's easy to aim and shoot but damn near difficult to move since your limited to only 4 directions.

BUT it's much easier to move with a game pad. (I use a Power A, Wired PS3 remote for reference). With my Robots AIR speed at the highest level possible in the game I'm almost untouchable unless ganged up on or attacked by another fast unit thanks to my game pad. But aiming is hard and takes time to get use to.

But when playing "I Want to be the guy" It's easier to play using the key board rather then a game pad.

As for "Megaman Zero", SUB weapon and Dash mapped to the shoulder buttons makes the game easy to me.

So yeah, Keyboard or Gamepad, it REALLY depends on the player and the game.

EDIT: Nice to see we are handling this discussion very well.

[Seil]

EDIT: Nice to see we are handling this discussion very well.

We're NPF, it's what we do... you asshole.

[Kyanbu The Legend]

We're NPF, it's what we do... you asshole.

Sorry about that I just have one too many bad memories of threads involving PC Vs something console normally have.

So many bad memories. >_<

So glad NPF, is one of the better place for this kind of discussion. :)

[akaSM]

As for "Megaman Zero", SUB weapon and Dash mapped to the shoulder buttons makes the game easy to me.

That's the first game I thought that was a lot easier on a gamepad. Shoulder buttons are a must for a game like this. I tried playing this on my phone once, it was so freaking hard, even with a semi-good dpad.

Playing Quake III arena in a phone? Oh god, my fingers hurt after a while.

I'm good with a gamepad in most games that support it, but not so much with KB & mouse because of 2 things:


I'm not used to this yet, the only things I used to play on a computer required a mouse or a gamepad.
My pinkies, they're so useless right now, they feel so weak and imprecise.

[Aerozord]

it might just be because I was bred on consoles, but its easier to list what I prefer a mouse for, because its a much shorter list. keyboard/mouse for RTS (to the degree I wont even play it on console), FPS, and whatever the heck Civilization is (strategy?).

Also anything that is typing intensive, but with voice chat becoming more common this worries me less.

Though I do get PC games if its something I'd like to mod, like alot of wRPGs but thats unrelated to the controls

[Niveras]

On a keyboard that's just about impossible. And even for just a few of those actions at a time, it's painful. A controller is so much easier to pull off simultaneous actions where precision pointing via mouse isn't required.

Sometimes its mechanically impossible. I know there've been a few computers in my time that honk loudly at you if you're holding more than 2 or 3 keys for longer than it takes to ctrl-alt-delete or such. This may or may not be an issue these days.

Anyway, I don't know that's it been mentioned yet, but I would argue the PC Gaming Industry is not biased toward gamepads. Instead, the propensity to design for consoles and then port them over to PC without much changing the control scheme is to blame (I'm looking at you, Oblivion/Fallout/Force Unleashed/Fable/Dungeon Siege III*/I'm-Sure-There-Are-More). These games are generally "action-adventure" and largely rely on the second joystick to manage the camera. Games designed natively for the PC are better built with that in mind, but then games designed natively for the PC are generally less action orientated than the console-to-PC crowd (FPS aside, where the mouse's speed and accuracy reigns supreme compared to analog joysticks).

That the gaming industry is more interested in designing for the lowest common denominator and then porting it is the bigger issue. The actual PC gaming industry, the games that are designed for the PC, eschew gamepads because of their complexity. Could you play Starcraft with a gamepad? Probably, but I'm sure the scroll speed alone would be problematic. Dwarf Fortress?

Actually, I'm at a loss of thinking of PC games that play poorly with a gamepad that aren't either RTS or FPS. I guess MMO also count but that has more to do with the sheer number of abilities moreso than any inherent benefit in control schemes. If a gamepad had 10+ buttons (plus modifier keys) you could probably manage something complex, and these days MMOs are become pretty simplified anyway. DC Universe is intended to be played on the console, people play WoW on consoles (though you probably could not raid or arena with it), and I'm somewhat certain GW2 will be console-viable as well.

*Cheap shot: Dungeon Siege Abomination I would say, since resembles Dungeon Siege in name and lore only.

[Azisien]

There are cross-over game genres that can be played with both, obviously. FPS dominates the entire industry and is highly playable on both. But when it comes down to fine control, a mouse trumps a gamepad in an FPS. It just does.

Aiming auto-assist didn't evolve in console shooters for no particular reason, it makes them easier to play for almost everyone. Of course, if you sink 1000 hours into gamepad/10 hours into mouse you'll find a mouse awkward and vice versa, that has less to do with hardware than it has to do with basic adaptation. In equal portions, the differences come out.

Dead Rising actually comes to mind as an interesting example for me. You don't really do much shooting in the game, so I feel no bias really exists favoring one control scheme over the other, even though I'd generally group TPS with keyboard/mouse.

[Marc v4.0]

There are cross-over game genres that can be played with both, obviously. FPS dominates the entire industry and is highly playable on both. But when it comes down to fine control, a mouse trumps a gamepad in an FPS. It just does.

Aiming auto-assist didn't evolve in console shooters for no particular reason, it makes them easier to play for almost everyone. Of course, if you sink 1000 hours into gamepad/10 hours into mouse you'll find a mouse awkward and vice versa, that has less to do with hardware than it has to do with basic adaptation. In equal portions, the differences come out.

Dead Rising actually comes to mind as an interesting example for me. You don't really do much shooting in the game, so I feel no bias really exists favoring one control scheme over the other, even though I'd generally group TPS with keyboard/mouse.

I don't really buy in to that whole "The mouse is always better" malarky. I've logged equal time to both my PC and consoles gaming FPS, and it boils more down to the game itself and the personal prefrences of the player. In equal portions, you'll think the one you like better is better.

[Azisien]

Like I said, I think a decent personal bias can overrule a player one way or the other in a crossover genre, but you cannot move a couple of pixels as finely with a gamepad. I've never seen it done, and even watching MLG Halo, which is probably the best that can be expected for now, it is obvious a gamepad is in use.

Like, aiming auto-assist. It's becoming a standard addition to console FPS. It doesn't even have to exist on the PC, because pointing is faster and easier if you have any practice with both. It is added because control is not as easy, and for no other reason.

[Marc v4.0]

I don't need to move one pixel at a time in every FPS I play, though, so the Mouse isn't automatically just better because it can. Many games map more intuitivly to a USB controller then to a Keyboard/Mouse (Looking at you, Witcher 2), but that doesn't mean the Gamepad is just better. Situational to the Game and Player automatically means that one cannot be "just better".

[Azisien]

If Witcher 2 was even a Shooter, I might be concerned with my stance, but on another page I roughly outlined where I think control schemes lie strongest "situational to the game." Mouse/Keyboard is not always better, but it IS better in specific genres, if fine control is what you seek.

I guess we could just not control our games finely, but then what are we talking about? Let us play with our feet!

[Marc v4.0]

I'm sorry, I was arguing from the standpoint that assumes the words subjective and objective mean two completely different things.

Since examples have to be completely relevant all the time and can't be used as an example of concept ever: Fallout 3 and Fallout:New Vegas handle much better mapped to a controller then they do a mouse, because working a lot of hotkeys is awkward in the middle of a fight using the standard Keyboard layout and I actually find the control much finer with a control stick. See? Both "Game Situational" and a "Player Situational" reasonings totally tuned to the context of FPS and FPS alone without being conceptual examples of my basic point only.


Edit: basically if you find yourself saying "It is always better for a particular genre, unless the player actually prefers something else" then it really isn't always better.

[rpgdemon]

I'm pretty sure that some company did some experiments allowing console players to play their FPS against PC players, which they ended up cutting because the PC players, mostly without fail, beat the console players soundly.

Take what you will out of that.

[Azisien]

Edit: basically if you find yourself saying "It is always better for a particular genre, unless the player actually prefers something else" then it really isn't always better.

That isn't exactly what I am saying, the player bias factor to me only matters if one control scheme or the other is pretty alien to you. Any new control scheme is clunky because the player isn't used to it.

Fallout is a great example because VATS takes fine control out of the equation. But if you're talking about playing Fallout like a pure FPS, I still would give finer control to the mouse for aiming. And in a fight without VATS you have to contend with...the....R button? And I guess stimpaks if you map that somewhere. Fallout 3 is a great anecdote for me I suppose, because I logged my gargantuan 70 hour save file on the 360, and yeah the game was utterly and contently playable (with VATS), or with weapons that were easy to aim. I've logged maybe 2 hours on Fallout 3 on the PC, but on which platform was it easier to snipe people without VATS (i.e. play it like a FPS/TPS)? PC no contest.

[Krylo]

Doesn't adding vats only add the V button?

Fallout 3/NV are pretty light on key controls. I'm not really seeing where hotkeys in combat could be a problem. And really, they'd be even more keyboard/mouse dependent if they weren't. Gamepads suck at hotkeys. Take DA:2 for instance: Keyboard = quick tap of '1' through '=' to use powers or heal. 360/PS3 = push button to pull up radial power menu, use stick to select power, release radial menu.

[Magus]

FPSes are always better with a mouse. Unless you turn on the inevitable auto-aim function, it's just simply easier to get headshots.

I can't see anyone doing better with an RTS on a gamepad either. I don't think anybody in the history of forever has ever thought Starcraft 64 handled sublimely.

"Game Situational" all the way.

[greed]

Well there are the console designed RTS' like Pikmin, Little King Story and Overlord. They don't work so well on PCs.

[Marc v4.0]

but on which platform was it easier to snipe people without VATS (i.e. play it like a FPS/TPS)? PC no contest.

I noticed absolutly no difference in my ability to make carefully aimed shots between the two control setups. Contest. Exists.

[PyrosNine]

The difference comes down to what muscles in your fingers and wrist you've trained- a well trained thumb uses a lot less energy to move with precision than a wrist, but can't move between targets as quickly unless you're trained in it, whereas a mouse moves quickly and can be very precise but you need to train your wrist and entire hand to lock down the movements and control your nerves.

An out of control mouse player will fire wildly because when their arm wears down or they panic, their mouse is everywhere, but a controller gamer won't, but will be more likely to hit the wrong buttons repeatedly.

Apples and Banannas, and a matter of preference. There's a reason why the Xbox controller is compatible with the PC. I personally use a GC controller on mine (though it doesn't work with Onlive, which saddens me) and also have an adapter for a PS1&2 controller. A pad for action games, a mouse and keyboard for FPS, and a mix thereof for MMO's.

Actually, I'm fond of mixing buttons between the keyboard and the controller, as for instance the GC controller is short a few buttons for games that expect the Xbox or PS2 equivalent controller. So, start button, L2, R2, and the like get shunted to the keyboard. Also, MMOs like IMAGINE and Vindictus that have an active element are best played with gamepads, but you can't fit all your commands onto a controller unless you've got one of those weird and expensive special pads.

The best control scheme I think we'll see in the future is the Stylus +Joystick/Analog pad, which could either play like Metroid Prime 3 or have a section in the lower right hand corner that you could manipulate with the stylus like a second joystick to rotate the view, because that provides an unbelievable amount of accuracy with a minimal amount of effort. The Wii U looks like it could do it, too! (Actually, someone get me some lawyers and I'll patent this idea and take it to the bank)

[Krylo]

The difference comes down to what muscles in your fingers and wrist you've trained- a well trained thumb uses a lot less energy to move with precision than a wrist, but can't move between targets as quickly unless you're trained in it, whereas a mouse moves quickly and can be very precise but you need to train your wrist and entire hand to lock down the movements and control your nerves.

An out of control mouse player will fire wildly because when their arm wears down or they panic, their mouse is everywhere, but a controller gamer won't,

Trackball.

With high sensitivity.

[Marc v4.0]

Trackball.

With high sensitivity.

I really do want to try that and see how it works for me.

[Yumil]

I really do want to try that and see how it works for me.

Takes a bit to get used to, but it's hard to go back to a mouse after you do. Use a Logitech trackball on my fps's and a razer naga on my mmos>.<

Honestly would like to see an xbox style controller with a trackball for the right thumb stick.

[Magus]

A trackball is just an older-style mouse, really (before they had optical mouses). You just move the trackball with your hand/thumb instead of moving the platform it is embedded in. I can see the convenience of a stationary platform where you move the ball instead of a moveable platform that also has a moveable ball in it, though. It really makes more sense than a mouse within a virtual reality environment since the idea of the moving the mouse about was you were moving about a limited, bounded space (your computer screen), instead of a 360-degree, 3D universe.

I too would love to see a game system controller with a thumb-trackball. That would be completely awesome.

Also about console RTSes playing better with gamepads, that is because they were designed with gamepads in mind and are often more simplistic than PC RTSes, anyway. You can see with something like Pikmin or Overlord or Halo Wars that it is way less in-depth than Starcraft or Warhammer 40k.

[Seil]

I've never liked having a trackball mouse for gaming. It sounds good on paper, but once you're using it, it's too foreign using your thumb instead of your hand to move your crosshairs. ...Maybe I had the sensitivity too high, though.

In my recollection, the trackball controller was employed by ATARI at some point.

[Krylo]

it's too foreign using your thumb instead of your hand to move your crosshairs.

Takes a bit to get used to, but it's hard to go back to a mouse after you do.

.

[rpgdemon]

The problem I could see with a trackball gamepad is that they act funky when tilted at weird angles.

[Magus]

In the era of fancy gyroscopes, I'm sure this could be fixed...BUT still not sure how a simple x, y, z trackball would be affected by gravity, though, as long as it is pretty securely locked in place? I have to admit I haven't used a trackball since like, the old arcade days.

[rpgdemon]

I've got an old arcade cabinet with a trackball in it, the top of which can flip upwards to open up/access the wiring. It might be a result of the trackball being not perfectly fitted, but when you lift it at a 90 degree angle, it loses connection to the Y axis.

The other problem with trackball controllers is that if they get covered in scuzz, and start sticking, that's bad. I guess you could do the old, let them open it up to clean the trackball off that old mice had.

[Magus]

They would just have to invest in higher quality materials which are slicker than the materials used in cheap mice. Keep in mind those cheap mice used rubber balls instead of ceramic, plastic rollers instead of ceramic, etc.

[Yumil]

Main problem in fitting them into a controller is that their input is acceleration based, while joystick input isn't. You'd have to convert the signal to make it worth while, and while I've seen studies that showed that the trackball would be more accurate, I have yet to see anyone invest the time in doing such a converter or the system itself would have to recognize the input.

One of the studies I saw (http://www.yorku.ca/mack/FuturePlay2.html)

Well... While looking for studies...I actually found someone who has modified an xbox controller with a trackball. This is their website, though they only sell on ebay. (http://www.trackballcontroller.com/) Well, they are pricey($120), but considering the work that is needed to convert the signal, it's probably the right price for a modification made by someone. I'd like to get ahold of one and open it up>.< too bad I dont have $120 to spare for quite a while.

[Magus]

Well that one has an optical trackball, might save money with actual physical rollers. But again you'd have to clean them or make them from a material that reduces gumming up, etc.

[rpgdemon]

What you could conceivably do is make it a little touch-pad deal, which would be slightly more accurate than a control stick, I'd think.

[Seil]

I dun know - I think I'd have to turn down the sensitivity on a touch pad until analog sticks are the better option. And analong sticks continue to work after they're scratched.