The Escapist is run by bigger douches than me

[Kim]

Extra Credits peeps are not only getting screwed out of being paid at all, but Escapist is still claiming rights to their IP and all existing episodes. THAT'S PRETTY DOUCHEY.

I'm also hearing they want like 75% of the money that the Extra Credits guys raised to help their artist with her operation?

GODDAMN SON.

Anywho, I'll add sources when I get some, mostly just been seeing this from the Extra Credits guys, and apparently this isn't the first time Escapist has screwed over people, or so I hear.

So yeah, I'm hella glad I stopped visiting the Escapist months ago.

EDIT: A source (http://nightmaremode.net/2011/08/extra-credits-leaves-the-escapist-9119/)

[Doc ock rokc]

Man, What The Fuck. Why didn't they just ...not post a video or do one protesting their pay. Hell if they did a video protesting their pay they would have defiantly gotten enough money to start their own gaming news site.

[Nique]

Hm. This is disappointing to hear as I actually enjoy Movie Bob even Yahtzee occasionally.

[Loyal]

I'm not passing any judgment till I hear some more details/evidence. It's a lot of one side's word against the other.

[Kim]

Escapist has posted a response (http://www.facebook.com/notes/alexander-macris/a-response-on-extra-credits/10150287107583910)

Does make me kinda wonder what's going on here, except for two things.

1. They've lost people before for now paying them.

2. They're blaming the recession for their inability to pay their content contributors.

That second one is just complete bullshit. Either they intentionally mislead or they hired outside their means and made promises they simply couldn't keep. NEITHER of these things paint them in a particularly positive light and make me skeptical of everything else they're claiming regarding this. Especially as the Extra Credits guy is telling them to just publish the emails to clear the air. If the Extra Credits guy was in the wrong I don't think he'd be doing this.

[Jagos]

This isn't the only one that's having problems. Based on what Escapist is saying here, I have to wonder about Pro Gamer's Gauntlet as well...

-E- Ok, the end is causing me concern...

We are prepared to defend ourselves against future defamation in a court of law.

So instead of sitting down and coming to an agreement, they're preparing an official statement? Well, I like Moviebob, I like his commentary, but seeing as how Escapist sits there and screws people over, I'm moving to Screw Attack.

[BitVyper]

Escapist has posted a response (http://www.facebook.com/notes/alexander-macris/a-response-on-extra-credits/10150287107583910)


Would you mind posting the text from that? I don't have a Facebook account.

[Loyal]

The entirety of the text was edited into the article in the first post.

[Kim]

Been seeing a lot of people come forward as having not been paid by the Escapist. Some really new and some who used to be there. So the whole recession thing is, like I said, bullshit. They continued to bring on people they couldn't pay despite telling those people they could pay them, and at the same time weren't paying the people they already had on-staff. What a bunch of assholes.

[Kerensky287]

The Escapist lucked out early on by picking up Yahtzee. Up until recently the only things I found worth watching were Zero Punctuation, Extra Credits, Critical Miss and occasionally Moviebob. Aside from that they've always had a gajillion columns and articles, the vast majority of which are poorly written, incredibly biased, stolen, or a combination thereof.

What I find funny about their response to Extra Credits' outburst is that James Portnow apparently came to The Escapist saying "Hey, now would be a GREAT time for you to pay me all that cash you owe me," and they apparently suggested that he do a charity run instead. And then when he DID do a charity run they tried to take a ton of the money because it was their idea.

[Solid Snake]

Yeah I've been following a bit of the news on the Escapist message boards (I lurk there, do not have an account or anything) and I have to say I really haven't heard anything that's painted The Escapist in a sufficiently positive light for me.

It's rather telling that The Escapist's defense begins with an admission that they haven't been paying people the money they owe them.

But I'll be reserving a final judgment until I read full copies of the e-mails from both parties, which apparently has been promised to be released by both parties shortly.

I will say that if the Extra Credits folks are right in their version of the story, Movie Bob and Yahtzee will be directly judged by me by their ability or inability to stick up for their unjustly treated co-workers. I suppose the Jimquisition guy would be too, if I actually had a single dime or nickel of respect for that troll.

[Jagos]

I will say that if the Extra Credits folks are right in their version of the story, Movie Bob and Yahtzee will be directly judged by me by their ability or inability to stick up for their unjustly treated co-workers. I suppose the Jimquisition guy would be too, if I actually had a single dime or nickel of respect for that troll.

Ok, just a small side topic. This pretty much explains the character (http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/jimquisition/3799-Fight-in-the-Name-of-Childishness) of why he is the way he is. Not to say anything else, listen to it, and come to your own conclusions.

[Solid Snake]

Ok, just a small side topic. This pretty much explains the character (http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/jimquisition/3799-Fight-in-the-Name-of-Childishness) of why he is the way he is. Not to say anything else, listen to it, and come to your own conclusions.

Yeah, you see, that basically did absolutely nothing to advance my opinion of him.

In fact, by insulting the kind of person I am and strive to be, he pretty much dug himself an even deeper hole.
The kind of idiots who believe that fighting fire with fire is the appropriate way to solve any problem whatsoever are only contributing to the dumbing down of American society and, I'm sorry for being the stuck-up cultural elitist stereotype, but as someone who'd rather like to believe that humanity can replicate the kind of society (possibly) practiced in ancient Greece, I'd like to oh so childishly say "fuck off" to the exaggerators and the sensationalists who think it's delightful that Fox News and its brethren have set humanity back to the Stone Age

[Meister]

Regardless of how this specific thing went down I'm profoundly unsurprised that the Escapist is run by douches, because their method of journalism as far as I can see is to pick up gossip and spin it into statements of fact, to write substanceless blurbs around offsite videos in order to make a link appear as an original article, and to connect unrelated news bits to the greater world of gaming, all as a matter of course and in an obvious effort to generate more pageviews.

[Amake]

Well I'm taking my business pageviews to Loading Ready Run!

[Professor Smarmiarty]

like to believe that humanity can replicate the kind of society (possibly) practiced in ancient Greece,

Reckless, self-destructive xenophobia and extreme oligarchism fuelled by mass enslavement? I'm in!

[Satan's Onion]

Reckless, self-destructive xenophobia and extreme oligarchism fuelled by mass enslavement? I'm in!

And the buttsex. It's Greece; you can't forget the buttsex.

[greed]

Usually gay pedophilic slave buttsex as well. Wow Snake, I had no idea you were that kinky.

[CABAL49]

I think he was referring to an Athens style orgy-fest as opposed to Spartan style, let's make our women dress like men so that they are easier to have sex with because the only reason a penis goes into vagina is for procreation.

[Karrrrrrrrrrrresche]

What I find funny about their response to Extra Credits' outburst is that James Portnow apparently came to The Escapist saying "Hey, now would be a GREAT time for you to pay me all that cash you owe me," and they apparently suggested that he do a charity run instead. And then when he DID do a charity run they tried to take a ton of the money because it was their idea.

They paid part of the costs of the charity and the shirts they were selling in conjunction with said charity run. James agreed to them doing so in exchange for a portion to cover their losses.
Considering how much the EC crew got from that run I'd say it's pretty reasonable for Escapist to expect to receive some of that investment rather than having James start up his own company with it.

After the RocketHub was enormously successful and James had decided to use the funds to create an indie publishing label rather than to “save Extra Credits”, James decided he would no longer speak to us directly and instead assigned a “business development manager” to speak to us.
We indicated we would be happy to work out an IP transfer but that before we did that, we would like to make sure we got paid for the wholesale cost of the t-shirts and the Publisher’s Club memberships, and that we would like to see the Extra Credits RocketHub money used to create more Extra Credits. We did NOT ask that James send us $9,500 – we said he should use $9,500 to create more episodes of the show that the money was supposed to be used to save.

I understand that James and the rest of the EC crew deserved to be paid first, but my understanding is that he specifically told Escapist magazine to pay everyone else before him, and in the same situation I too would assume that he'd have no problem paying the portion he owes in order for me to actually continue doing that.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

This is all a massive case of he said-she said. I don't really think any stance of who is "right" can be made with the contradictory facts at hand.

[Kim]

I understand that James and the rest of the EC crew deserved to be paid first, but my understanding is that he specifically told Escapist magazine to pay everyone else before him, and in the same situation I too would assume that he'd have no problem paying the portion he owes in order for me to actually continue doing that.

Don't skim over the fact that the reason this was even an issue is that they continued to hire people they couldn't afford to pay even though they already couldn't afford to pay the people they'd already hired, and that this had been the case for a year at the very least. The Escapist has admitted this. They've just blamed the economy, which is a bullshit excuse.

It's really hard for me to view the Escapist in any sort of positive light once you keep that in mind.

[Karrrrrrrrrrrresche]

Don't skim over the fact that the reason this was even an issue is that they continued to hire people they couldn't afford to pay even though they already couldn't afford to pay the people they'd already hired, and that this had been the case for a year at the very least. The Escapist has admitted this. They've just blamed the economy, which is a bullshit excuse.

It's really hard for me to view the Escapist in any sort of positive light once you keep that in mind.

Wasn't really trying to skim over it, it's just already been said and I didn't see what restating it would add to the conversation.

[Solid Snake]

Way to miss my point entirely guys!

(But women dressing like men does sound kind of fun, women in pantsuits are exceptionally attractive)

[Aerozord]

This is all a massive case of he said-she said. I don't really think any stance of who is "right" can be made with the contradictory facts at hand.
yea, alot of people seem to be taking sides on arbitrary reasons. The EC people dont seem like type to screw over Escapist, but reverse is true. Its impossible to get objective views on this, and if its isolated I wouldn't give it much thought.
Don't skim over the fact that the reason this was even an issue is that they continued to hire people they couldn't afford to pay even though they already couldn't afford to pay the people they'd already hired, and that this had been the case for a year at the very least. The Escapist has admitted this. They've just blamed the economy, which is a bullshit excuse.

Actually no, while often unwise it is a business tactic to expand in the hopes that increased revenue will more then make up for the lose. Either that or downsizing but they probably calculated they'd lose more then they saved. Things just didn't turn out that way and they ended up deeper in the hole. Basically they gambled and lost.

[Kim]

Actually no, while often unwise it is a business tactic to expand in the hopes that increased revenue will more then make up for the lose. Either that or downsizing but they probably calculated they'd lose more then they saved. Things just didn't turn out that way and they ended up deeper in the hole. Basically they gambled and lost.

lolwut

This has been a consistent tactic of theirs for quite some time. It's not that they gambled and lost, it's that they gambled AT THE EXPENSE OF OTHER PEOPLE and then continued to do so. They got lots of work for a portion of the pay they promised. I'm pretty sure that's called winning.

It's also called being a fucking asshole.

Also, it's NOT isolated. The number of people coming forward with being screwed over by The Escapist is prove enough of that.

EDIT: I mean seriously how the hell is telling people, "We'll pay you this much for your content," not paying them that money, and then hiring more people when they're still not paying the people they have the money they promised, and in turn not paying the new people at all excusable?

[Aerozord]

lolwut

This has been a consistent tactic of theirs for quite some time. It's not that they gambled and lost, it's that they gambled AT THE EXPENSE OF OTHER PEOPLE and then continued to do so. They got lots of work for a portion of the pay they promised. I'm pretty sure that's called winning.

It's also called being a fucking asshole.

you were the one that said "they couldn't afford them", meaning they didn't have the money to pay for them. Not having money is not good for a company.

While a company should openly discuss their inability with their contributors and explain that they are having financial issues, often they do attempt to continue growing without the ability to support it in the long run. This is known as a "growth trap" and has doomed many businesses

[edit] my bad, I forgot a growth trap is when a company is profitable, and you keep saying they are not. So it is actually just poor management

[Kim]

you were the one that said "they couldn't afford them", meaning they didn't have the money to pay for them. Not having money is not good for a company.

While a company should openly discuss their inability with their contributors and explain that they are having financial issues, often they do attempt to continue growing without the ability to support it in the long run. This is known as a "growth trap" and has doomed many businesses

Aerozord, master of business, says not paying your old employees then hiring new employees that you also don't pay is a business tactic.

Perhaps I too can become a successful entrepreneur by not paying my employees.

[Aerozord]

Noncon let me try to clarify something because you seem to be jumping back and forth. Are you saying they are stupid and hired people without the funds to pay for them, or are you saying they can afford them and choose not to? Is escapist turning a profit or not?

[Kim]

I'm saying they AREN'T PAYING THEIR EMPLOYEES.

I'm not jumping back and forth at all.

The reason they aren't paying their employees doesn't matter because they hired them, and then they did not pay them, and then they hired more and did not pay them.

If I was hired by McDonalds as a cook and they did not pay me I would not give a fuck if it's because the business is failing or if it's because they're fuckasses. It would also be pretty frustrating if this was the case and I saw them hiring people after they hired me and not paying them either.

In fact, hiring me without ability to pay me is a pretty fuckassy thing to do in the first place.

You do not hire someone and tell them you will pay them a certain amount if you are not going to do that thing. It doesn't matter if it's because you're business is shit or because you're a douchebag who likes to mislead people. YOU JUST DON'T DO THAT.

Why is this so hard to understand Aero?

[Solid Snake]

I think the point is if you can't pay your old employees you certainly should not be investing in new employees and also promising those new employees money that you do not have

EDIT: And if you counter with the point that in order to actually turn a profit The Escapist needs to make further risks and hire new talent to bring in more revenues, that's a legit argument, but The Escapist as a corporation is still responsible for going into debt themselves and taking out the loans necessary to pay their new talent. So in that case The Escapist would be like "okay we're going to take a risk and take on more people despite having no money, but to pay for these new people who we're promising money, we're the ones going to the bank and going into debt so we can afford them, in hopes that increased revenues eventually allows us to pay off the debt and start raking in cash."

If they want to take the gamble, they pay if they lose.

[Kim]

Let me use a personal example.

I am writing for a video games site right now that is not paying me.

I am okay with this.

Would you like to know why I am okay with this?

Because they at no point in the history of my dealings with them made it sound like they would pay me. They did not mislead me. They said, "We can't afford to pay our writers," and I said, "I understand. I am okay with that."

The Escapist, by contrast, hired the Extra Creditz guys under the assumption that the EC guys would be payed, was spotty as hell with paying them, and then put them into a situation where it was either the Extra Creditz guys being screwed out of their pay or other Escapist employees being screwed out of their pay, and they EC guys said, "Hey, pay these other guys, who you've not payed for some time, first," because they're pretty decent folks.

The EC guys should never have been put into that situation in the first place, regardless of the financial situation of the Escapist, because that situation is either the result of the Escapist promising employees money that they did not have or simply being corrupt douchebags who weren't paying employees money that they did have.

EITHER WAY: They're a douchebag of a company.

[Aerozord]

Cause it happens all the time in business. You hire employees but then when its time to pay them you learn the money just isn't there. Do they owe you the money? Yes of course, but they cant give you money they dont have. Why would they hire more people? Because they hope that it will bring in revenue to pay their employees. The alternative it the business simply not existing anymore and guess what, that would still mean you dont get paid. But this way its possible even if unlikely.

Now if they have the money then yes, they are just being greedy dicks and need to cough up the cash. In fact its pretty open and shut legally. "Contract says I do this and get this, I did this" court awards you money for work rendered.
edit


EDIT: And if you counter with the point that in order to actually turn a profit The Escapist needs to make further risks and hire new talent to bring in more revenues, that's a legit argument, but The Escapist as a corporation is still responsible for going into debt themselves and taking out the loans necessary to pay their new talent. So in that case The Escapist would be like "okay we're going to take a risk and take on more people despite having no money, but to pay for these new people who we're promising money, we're the ones going to the bank and going into debt so we can afford them, in hopes that increased revenues eventually allows us to pay off the debt and start raking in cash."

If they want to take the gamble, they pay if they lose.
yes but issue is we dont know the details behind this. Its possible they did have a method lined up to pay them, like maybe a company promised them money and that company went under, thus they lost that revenue. Maybe someone made an accounting error and it was a simple mistake. Maybe they couldn't get the loan and just hoped these guys could bring in the cash, but didn't tell them that cause then they wouldn't do it and they'd be screwed.

Not trying to make excuses. Just saying I would rather wait till I get the information before I begin passing judgement

[Solid Snake]

Cause it happens all the time in business. You hire employees but then when its time to pay them you learn the money just isn't there. Do they owe you the money? Yes of course, but they cant give you money they dont have.

Again: The company would be responsible for going into debt to pay you the money they promised. They're essentially legally obligated to unless they declare bankruptcy.

[Kim]

Jesus Christ, Aero.

If you don't have the money to pay your employees, you should never under any circumstances mislead them into thinking you do. DON'T MAKE PROMISES YOU CAN'T KEEP, ESPECIALLY WHEN YOU ARE A COMPANY PROMISING TO PAY YOUR EMPLOYEES. DO NOT MAKE CONTRACTS WHEREIN YOU PROMISE THESE EMPLOYEES THAT YOU WILL PAY THEM IF YOU CAN'T ACTUALLY FULFILL THE PROMISES IN THAT CONTRACT.

Do not tell people you are going to pay them if you aren't actually capable of paying them.

This is not complicated. Why are you incapable of understanding this incredibly basic idea?

[Solid Snake]

If you don't have the money to pay your employees, you should never under any circumstances mislead them into thinking you do.

In a capitalistic society like ours, this isn't even the problem. Even if The Escapist did not have the money to pay their employees, they still could agree to pay their employees and walk over to a nice little institution we call "The Bank" and do what every other business venture in the red (that does not want to declare bankruptcy as they expect their losses are temporary and will eventually lead to increased revenue) does, namely take out "A Loan" that gives them cash now and obligates them to pay "The Bank" later.

Really my point is The Escapist has even less of an excuse than what NonCon is implying, because the system is very much rigged so that new or struggling businesses that can reasonably project increased revenue due to investments can easily acquire money. And if The Escapist signs a legal contract obligating them to pay they're obligated to either A: take out the money from the bank when they have to or B: declare bankruptcy and liquidate assets (I wonder if The Escapist even has any 'assets', though.)

Frankly if it was just Extra Credits who wasn't getting paid I'd also accept the idea that EC apparently initially renegotiated or altered their contract by saying "Aww man it's totally cool if you don't pay us (yet)," but there's plenty of other people saying they did not get paid who did not even have the chance to make that bargain, which kind of ruins that point for The Escapist.

[Solid Snake]

yes but issue is we dont know the details behind this. Its possible they did have a method lined up to pay them, like maybe a company promised them money and that company went under, thus they lost that revenue. Maybe someone made an accounting error and it was a simple mistake. Maybe they couldn't get the loan and just hoped these guys could bring in the cash, but didn't tell them that cause then they wouldn't do it and they'd be screwed.


In any of those cases The Escapist bears full responsibility for the errors, not any of the employees. If anything like that actually happened The Escapist would be responsible for A: renegotiating contracts (such as promising employees more money if they're willing to be paid later), B: taking out loans from 'The Bank' to pay employees as the employees were contractually promised or C: declaring bankruptcy.

EDIT: Finally, while unforeseen circumstances quite frequently nullifies pre-existing contracts when it comes to the sale of products or merchandise (due to, for example, certain new conditions making acquiring a part necessary to construct the product within budgetary parameters impossible), Courts are very unwilling to apply the same logic to Employment Contracts, where the law is much stricter against employers because we rather dislike the conceptualization of slavery and employers are held to a higher standard when agreeing to pay employees for their time.

[Aerozord]

Again: The company would be responsible for going into debt to pay you the money they promised. They're essentially legally obligated to unless they declare bankruptcy.
this is incorrect. If the money simply isn't there and they cannot get the funds then no, and the way the market is no bank will loan money to a failing company. Actually in that case, if they are forced to pay then its bankruptcy, all assets liquidated and what they owed is paid. Though since its a webcompany, and employees are at the bottom of that list, if they did go bankrupt the contributors wouldn't see a dime.
Jesus Christ, Aero.

If you don't have the money to pay your employees, you should never under any circumstances mislead them into thinking you do. DON'T MAKE PROMISES YOU CAN'T KEEP, ESPECIALLY WHEN YOU ARE A COMPANY PROMISING TO PAY YOUR EMPLOYEES. DO NOT MAKE CONTRACTS WHEREIN YOU PROMISE THESE EMPLOYEES THAT YOU WILL PAY THEM IF YOU CAN'T ACTUALLY FULFILL THE PROMISES IN THAT CONTRACT.

Do not tell people you are going to pay them if you aren't actually capable of paying them.

This is not complicated. Why are you incapable of understanding this incredibly basic idea?

Noncon, you are arguing from a position of ignorance. You dont even know if they can pay these employees, you dont know if when the contract was drafted if they could pay them and things have since changed, you do not know if this was their only hope of generating revenue to pay the people they do owe, or even if this information was divulged to them in the first place.

For all you know there was a clause in the contract saying they'd only pay if the revenue generated exceeded a certain amount.

Yes that does happen, normally as a way for contributor to be allowed to do something their employer doesn't believe will turn a profit.

[Jagos]

A spot of legalese, were the contracts work-for-hire?

Making the people independents that could work for a certain amount seems like the type of move on the Escapist's part.

Also, Non has the better point here. From what I picked up with Escapist, they paid what they could, but there's still the issue of paying the people that came before. There will Be Brawl had that very same issue from the last episode when its director was editing. There's also a problem with PGG now, that might not be linked, but perhaps it is. People are creating content, but Escapist isn't paying up.

I wouldn't be surprised if more people decide to "dump" on Escapist, now that it's known that they have problems paying people.

Noncon, you are arguing from a position of ignorance---

Ok, stop right there. Aero, you've done this yourself before and people continue to try to reason with you even when you've made some pretty huge jumps of logic. But having you argue from that very same moralistic high ground is NOT going to help your cause.

[Solid Snake]

this is incorrect. If the money simply isn't there and they cannot get the funds then no, and the way the market is no bank will loan money to a failing company. Actually in that case, if they are forced to pay then its bankruptcy, all assets liquidated and what they owed is paid. Though since its a webcompany, and employees are at the bottom of that list, if they did go bankrupt the contributors wouldn't see a dime.

...Did you...
Did you miss the part where I said "OR DECLARE BANKRUPTCY."
In the sentence you quoted!

afkadjfkasjfslkfjdsfkllf

[Aerozord]

In any of those cases The Escapist bears full responsibility for the errors, not any of the employees. If anything like that actually happened The Escapist would be responsible for A: renegotiating contracts (such as promising employees more money if they're willing to be paid later), B: taking out loans from 'The Bank' to pay employees as the employees were contractually promised or C: declaring bankruptcy.

issue is in A and C it still amounts to the employee not getting paid and as for B, as I said no bank is going to loan them that money. Investor, maybe, bank, no. Not in this market

Also keep in mind I am not saying they aren't owed money, or that Escapist isn't responsible for paying them. Merely that if they have no money, they cant pay them. Now it is immoral to hide information and gamble on hiring out even more people to try and turn a profit. Sometime the moral choice isn't the business choice, and since they have no other method to pay them it makes sense

[Jagos]

This is not going to end well...

*Gets out popcorn, Kevlar, Patton shades, and sits back for the roasting soon to come*

[Aerozord]

...Did you...
Did you miss the part where I said "OR DECLARE BANKRUPTCY."
In the sentence you quoted!

afkadjfkasjfslkfjdsfkllf

actually no, it was posted while I was typing, just as you didn't see where I said if declared bankruptcy then employees still dont see any money so not like it helps the contributors.

[Solid Snake]

issue is in A and C it still amounts to the employee not getting paid and as for B, as I said no bank is going to loan them that money. Investor, maybe, bank, no. Not in this market

This isn't about whether the employee is 'actually' paid but rather about what The Escapist should have actually legally done under a hypothetical circumstance where they could not pay employees they had legally bound themselves to pay

In that case you absolutely declare Bankruptcy if you have to before putting yourself in a position where your employees can sue you and now you have to go to Court and pay attorney's fees and deal with all kinds of legal messes and you are still going to declare bankruptcy anyway once you inevitably lose the cases

Like I can't believe anyone could argue that this is somehow a "better solution" for The Escapist than simply declaring Bankruptcy or renegotiating employment contracts or finding a lender, Bank or otherwise. Now The Escapist is going to get sued. Getting sued is never the better option, as you quickly learn when you go to law school and try to become a lawyer, it's the one thing you always try to prevent from happening to your clients, as the only one who benefits from a trial are the lawyers themselves.

[Azisien]

I remember NonCon saying he'd pay me like a grand per review on Gamepad Dojo and then he just like skipped town. When I find that fatherfucker---!

[Aerozord]

This isn't about whether the employee is 'actually' paid but rather about what The Escapist should have actually legally done under a hypothetical circumstance where they could not pay employees they had legally bound themselves to pay

In that case you absolutely declare Bankruptcy if you have to before putting yourself in a position where your employees can sue you and now you have to go to Court and pay attorney's fees and deal with all kinds of legal messes and you are still going to declare bankruptcy anyway once you inevitably lose the cases

Like I can't believe anyone could argue that this is somehow a "better solution" for The Escapist than simply declaring Bankruptcy or renegotiating employment contracts or finding a lender, Bank or otherwise. Now The Escapist is going to get sued. Getting sued is never the better option, as you quickly learn when you go to law school and try to become a lawyer, it's the one thing you always try to prevent from happening to your clients, as the only one who benefits from a trial are the lawyers themselves.

you are forgetting about being judgement proof. A corporation is its own legal entity. Thus if it has no assets to sue for and is liquidated to non-existence then no reason to fear it. Of course in that case its only because they are so screwed its impossible to hurt them further.

Now I am not arguing about what they are legally required to do, or that this option is wiser. Just that I can see a reason they might do this.

Frankly with our limited knowledge of the facts, everyone is arguing on hypothetical information.

Now that I think about it the entire debate is kind of pointless since one statement by either party could render most of the posts here meaningless.

[Solid Snake]

you are forgetting about being judgement proof. A corporation is its own legal entity. Thus if it has no assets to sue for and is liquidated to non-existence then no reason to fear it. Of course in that case its only because they are so screwed its impossible to hurt them further.

*sigh*
Yes I "forgot" something taught to me in my first days of my Contracts and Corporate Law classes.
How about you actually try to read and comprehend my arguments instead of pretending I am not in a fact a law student who actually has studied this and has pertinent things to say. Such as "if you're going to declare bankruptcy, declare it before you're sued." That is a pertinent thing to say.

And yes of course there are many additional factors that could be in play regarding what the contract says or does not say in regards to conditions but you'd think The Escapist would have clarified that in their own defense because it'd be a huge part of their defense against Extra Credits and others if their contracts essentially did not require them to pay EC or anyone else any money at all due to poor performance.

[Aerozord]

And yes of course there are many additional factors that could be in play regarding what the contract says or does not say in regards to conditions but you'd think The Escapist would have clarified that in their own defense because it'd be a huge part of their defense against Extra Credits and others if their contracts essentially did not require them to pay EC or anyone else any money at all due to poor performance.

thats why I said its pointless to argue since its all hypothetical. Maybe they dont have those clauses, maybe they do but aren't smart enough to realize they should point that out, or even they do know they should legally but determined from a marketing standpoint its bad.

This whole thing has so many ifs that, while I enjoy a good thought experiment, fighting over correct and proper based purely on different perspectives of inferred information, well as Jagos said "wont end well"

Personally I am going to wait until some more, objective facts come down. I mean entirely possible they are just dicks screwing people over, so not gonna waste more energy on it.

[Krylo]

I remember NonCon saying he'd pay me like a grand per review on Gamepad Dojo and then he just like skipped town. When I find that fatherfucker---!

Wait? That's a paying gig?

Goddamn, Nonsie, give me a job.

[Kim]

I like that Aerozord thinks honoring your contractual obligations and paying your employees is a totally optional thing to do and if you can't do it either because you're a lying whore or you promised money you don't have then ~shrugz~ oh well nobody's really to blame.

I mean I really honestly like that his brain works this way because it saves me the trouble of reading any of his posts on the subject anymore. I advise you all to join me in not doing that because goddamn I caught up on this thread in like seconds.

[Kim]

Wait? That's a paying gig?

Goddamn, Nonsie, give me a job.

I definitely pay.

I'm just hiring you under the assumption that doing so will make me enough money to actually pay you despite the fact that I don't make enough money to pay you on my own yet.

HOW COULD IT POSSIBLY BACKFIRE?

[Marc v4.0]

I like that Aerozord thinks honoring your contractual obligations and paying your employees is a totally optional thing to do and if you can't do it either because you're a lying whore or you promised money you don't have then ~shrugz~ oh well nobody's really to blame.

I like how he stated several times, in clear terms, that it is a shitty thing for them to do that isn't right or correct at all and their fault for not planning better but then ~oh wells~ you ignored it to caps lock at him like it makes your point of "He is an idiot" any more reasonable.


edit: As stupis as it sounds, Companies do pull the "hire new people so hopefully we can increase our profit enough to pay everyone" thing. Just because it is one of the dumber things I've ever heard of, doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

[Loyal]

Could we, perhaps, hold off on the mudslinging and rage and all that and just kinda wait till we see these e-mails? Is that an option?

[Marc v4.0]

Could we, perhaps, hold off on the mudslinging and rage and all that and just kinda wait till we see these e-mails? Is that an option?

It would be like Christmas came early this year

[Kim]

Not necessary, since the aspect we're currently discussing is irrelevant the emails and involves the simple fact that a number of people who have worked with the Escapist in the past have come forward as saying "Yeah they screwed us over, too."

So, while the details of this specific incident are up in the air, what isn't up in the air is that the Escapist is run by jackasses/idiots who make promises that they either have no intent to keep or have no ability to keep. One would think if it were the latter it'd be a thing they stop doing after their behavior has hurt a number of parties.

I don't see how you can repeatedly screw over multiple content providers over an extended period of time and not be viewed as douchebags. After a certain point ignorance ceases to be an excuse, if it ever was, because you should know that you're only going to screw these new ones over like you did the last ones, and yet you lie and mislead them into thinking they'll be treated like actual employees with pay and everything.

[Jagos]

They probably should have stayed with the pdf format...

[Aerozord]

I like that Aerozord thinks honoring your contractual obligations and paying your employees is a totally optional thing to do and if you can't do it either because you're a lying whore or you promised money you don't have then ~shrugz~ oh well nobody's really to blame.

see thats the funny thing about "cant", it inherently implies one cannot do something, and kind of hard to honor your obligations when you are incapable of doing so.

I mean I really honestly like that his brain works this way because it saves me the trouble of reading any of his posts on the subject anymore. I advise you all to join me in not doing that because goddamn I caught up on this thread in like seconds.

I will never understand why people always take to resenting and insulting an individual simply because they have a view point that differs from your own.

Though it may help you feel better by putting someone down, then asking others to do so allows you to feel "justified" for your actions by having the group agree and condone it.

[Kim]

I like how he stated several times, in clear terms,

Don't really recall seeing him state anything of the sort, let alone clearly...

that it is a shitty thing for them to do that isn't right or correct at all and their fault for not planning betterI know when I think something is reprehensible and awful I start arguing with someone who thinks it's reprehensible and awful and argue that it's a perfectly normal thing to do, like he did. When I think something's bad I too come up with excuses to try and paint it in a less terrible light.

Wait... No, I don't.

He never painted it as a bad thing. He painted it as a gamble and portayed them as the losers in said gamble.

1. I don't consider what is essentially a company policy that has been in place for an extended period of time a "gamble." At that point, you know what happens, you know how it turns out, and if you continue to do it you knowingly do so at the expense of others.

2. It's hard to envision the company getting free work out of employees as long as they can and then getting free work out of new employees for as long as they can and repeating this process as many times as possible as the "losers." They're winning. They don't have to pay what they promise and they get content, and they do so at the expense of their employees. There is no excuse.

Aerozord attempted to brush it to the side as something perfectly normal and paint me calling it bullshit behavior as ignorance. He came up with nonsense excuses to try and make them seem less at fault.

He keeps painting it as, "They just can't do it," in the face of my arguments that they should not have under any circumstances created such a scenario in the first place and that doing so was WRONG.

Why should I for one second take anything he's said seriously?

[Solid Snake]

edit: As stupis as it sounds, Companies do pull the "hire new people so hopefully we can increase our profit enough to pay everyone" thing. Just because it is one of the dumber things I've ever heard of, doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

It really isn't a dumb idea so long as you understand the basic principle that you actually do have to pay employees you've promised to pay even if you don't have the money.

My sister wants to start a Wedding business next year, after she graduates from grad school. She has virtually no assets with which to make the investment. She'll need to hire several employees, despite having no revenue with which to pay them.

She is going to present her business plan, including one-year, five-year and ten-year business projections, to Banks and investors who would become stockholders. The money will be loaned to her and she will utilize that money to cover initial expenses, including creating a website, leasing a property, and paying salaries.

Once she actually does reap the rewards of her efforts, she will pay back her investors or the Bank. In the interim, employees receive their salaries, and my sister understands that it would be her ass on the line if her company failed and she'd be forced to declare bankruptcy, while her employees would not be forced to pay back their earned salaries for the period of time corresponding to the business' actual operation.

If she DOES declare bankruptcy due to the business idea utterly failing and does begin to liquidate assets, this style of management ensures that she would not actually be sued by her employees, which is crucial for her own personal reputation as an entrepreneurial individual with an MBA, as she'd subsequently have to search for another business-oriented position with a pre-existing corporation, and being sued by uncompensated employees looks god damn terrible, like there is an actual reason why I as a lawyer am saying it is the last thing any person in a managerial position would possibly want to do.

Oh hey look at this link: Employees can sue for the non-payment of wages! (http://biztaxlaw.about.com/b/2009/06/03/employees-can-sue-for-non-payment-of-wages.htm)
Here's another: Here you go. (http://www.shrm.org/TemplatesTools/hrqa/Pages/wagesandbankruptcy.aspx)
Another link: Third's a charm. (http://www.workplacefairness.org/unpaidwages?agree=yes)

There's also reputational factors in play, as I've already mentioned, and the legal expenses to ensure representation in the event of a lawsuit, which apparently is now happening whether The Escapist actually declares bankruptcy or not.
TLDR: Federal and state law protects employees when employers do not pay them. The consequences of violations are severe and not worth employers not paying them. Just about any solution imaginable aside from "not paying them" would be preferable, ranging from the employment contract enabling termination to a voluntary agreement to withhold wages in exchange for greater payment at a later date to taking out loans to declaring bankruptcy the moment delayed or nonexistent payments became a serious issue.

But let's say the agreement between The Escapist and a writer (or The Escapist and Extra Credits) constitutes not an employer-employee agreement but a contractual agreement for services, because the contributors aren't technically employees or some shit. The aggrieved party would then sue for damages under common law contract doctrine instead of through State and Federal statutory Employment law.

In this circumstance, lost wages in exchange for service are always "definite and certain." The damage was reasonably foreseeable. Consideration was offered and the contract was breached after performance.

The Escapist is in trouble unless:
* Their promise to pay was formed as a condition, not a promise.
* The contract included other conditional language enabling The Escapist to gracefully back out of payment if those conditions (such as overall performance at the site) were not met. (The Escapist would have inevitably mentioned this by now if it were true, as it's an easy escape hatch to avoid culpability, albeit difficult to ensure agreement with the contributors who'd be aware they could easily be shafted.)
* The contract was later altered with mutual agreement by the parties. (This is what The Escapist appears to allege regarding Extra Credits but not what The Escapist has alleged in regards to other writers it's shortchanged.)
* An unforeseeable event makes it impossible for The Escapist to pay in the interim. (EXTREMELY unlikely if not outright impossible to argue in employment contracts. Particularly so if The Escapist was agreeing to hire new people around the time they also were unable to pay.)

TLDR: In employment contracts, in the common law, upon the employer's breach, the full price of the contract for services rendered is owed. No excuses unless the contract is worded in such a way that everyone who agreed to terms with The Escapist would be stupid for doing so. Add attorney's fees, reputational costs and other considerations into the bargain and The Escapist has just dug itself a tremendous hole, particularly if Extra Credit's allegations are accurate, and one that will be worse than it if it followed any number of sensible alternatives.

Like, that's the kicker. It's not that The Escapist was in a situation where they were simply screwed so any option they chose would leave them equally hung out to dry. There are many things The Escapist could have done -- the very least being honest with their contributors and asking to restructure contracts -- that would have been far more preferential to opening themselves to a torrent of lawsuits.

Even the "solution" comes in the form of bankruptcy, The Escapist would have been far better off declaring bankruptcy before opening itself to lawsuits, and actually paying employees before employees joined investors as creditors. There's nothing to be gained in making more enemies in a publicly sordid manner.

This is a mess and there's absolutely no way to argue that The Escapist's strategy of not paying people who they offered money to was by any means smart, particularly when the moment it became obvious that The Escapist was in a situation where it could not afford to continue meeting all its obligations The Escapist could have simply A: cut back their workforce and terminated folks, B: borrowed money to pay them on time, C: only hired new folks to provide services without pay instead of continuing to hire new folks for pay (Lord knows enough nerds would gladly write for free under the assumption that they'd eventually break into the industry or accumulate followers or something), D: declared bankruptcy, E: if they were confident in their future projections of potential projections, issuing stocks to investors in such a manner as to temporarily boost monetary liquidity, or uuuggggghhhh why I am bothering with this

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Man they should totally just declare bankruptacy and start over. It works for future president Trump!

[phil_]

Oh, oh, Snake, I think I know how The Escapist can get out of this with their nose relatively clean, business intact, and still not pay their workers! Just sue them for defamation before the employees sue for unpaid wages. They don't even have to play to win, just make it ugly and spirit crushing. Air a bunch of sordid personal crap, get their mothers involved, have the lawyers call all through the night; you know, act like a real business. It shouldn't take long before the Extra Credits guys and whomever else might have an issue with working for free are too tired of everything to even think of suing for wages. Oh, and they'll obviously have lawyers' fees to pay with the money they were never paid. Working that out should completely eliminate their ability to sue for wages.

The public should get tired of the story in a few weeks at most (most will never know it was happening), so it's not like they'd lose readers in the long term. I'd say this is the best course of action. "We are prepared to defend ourselves against future defamation in a court of law," seems to say Mr. Macris agrees with me.

[Jagos]

Solid, one question. What if they're work-for-hire?

I think I know how The Escapist can get out of this with their nose relatively clean, business intact, and still not pay their workers! Just sue them for defamation before the employees sue for unpaid wages. They don't even have to play to win, just make it ugly and spirit crushing. Air a bunch of sordid personal crap, get their mothers involved, have the lawyers call all through the night; you know, act like a real business. It shouldn't take long before the Extra Credits guys' and whomever else might have an issue with working for free are too tired of everything to even think of suing for wages. Oh, and they'll obviously have lawyers' fees to pay with the money they were never paid.

Translation: Pull out the "Bobby Kotick v Infinity Ward" maneuver.

[Solid Snake]

Sure, Phil. The Escapist could be assholes and choose the asshole solution out of this. They'd risk alienating a hell a lot of folks, though. I give the internet more credit for longer memories than you'd think, but I guess we'll see.

I also don't understand the work-for-hire argument there Jagos. Work-for-hire predominantly has to do with the employer and not the employee being the legally recognized creator of the work, which has intellectual property ramifications, but no ramifications regarding wages or salary owed. So under that definition the contributors would have no rights to the episodes or videos or artwork or whatever they do for The Escapist, but The Escapist still has to pay them money in accordance with the contractual agreement.

[Marc v4.0]

So it is actually just poor management

Also keep in mind I am not saying they aren't owed money, or that Escapist isn't responsible for paying them. Merely that if they have no money, they cant pay them. Now it is immoral to hide information and gamble on hiring out even more people to try and turn a profit. Sometime the moral choice isn't the business choice, and since they have no other method to pay them it makes sense


Don't really recall seeing him state anything of the sort, let alone clearly...

PROTIP:~oh wells~ you ignored it to caps lock at him like it makes your point of "He is an idiot" any more reasonable.



Why should I for one second take anything he's said seriously?

Because I can pretty much guarantee that it will have been the very first time you've ever treated the viewpoint of someone in disagreement with you with any degree of respect at all.

It would be a great change of pace.

[Kim]

First off, Marc, there are several people whose opinions I respect and several times when I've said either I'll concede the point because the way a person explained it made sense or because even though I disagreed I didn't feel informed enough on the subject to argue the point. It's jut that nobody ever notices when these things happen.

Second, I will apologize for how I behaved in this thread. Sorry.

[Jagos]

Updates and comments plus a look at a reply to Escapist side (http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.305970-Extra-Credits-leaves-the-Escapist-UPDATED-WITH-JQ-and-MoS-COMMENTS)

I dunno. I'm just going to find a new game site and leave this one behind. All I'm saying.

[Solid Snake]

Nonny, right about now is when we could really use an alternative gaming website run by real, genuinely cool gamerfolk.
Just sayin'.

[Jagos]

He's said on his own site, he's been busy writing for Rock Paper Shotgun if I'm not mistaken.

[Krylo]

Yahtzee, EC, and Miracle of Sound are/were the only things that were really worth any time over there.

And there's always Miracle of Sound's Bandcamp (http://miracleofsound.bandcamp.com/). Though it'll always be a bit behind the site.

[Kim]

Nonny, right about now is when we could really use an alternative gaming website run by real, genuinely cool gamerfolk.
Just sayin'.

There are... problems in making this happen. Any site costs money to run, and to get a really dedicated staff ideally you'd like to pay them. When Gamepad Dojo was in full swing I really felt bad that I wasn't able to pay anyone. I made sure they weren't under the impression I would, but that doesn't mean I didn't want to.

If you're going to do news, which is the easiest most effective way to get tons of content on a regular basis, you need to cover as much news as you can. This means going out of your way to do original articles, which other sites will quote and repost, and doing the same to other sites, and trying to maintain staggering quantity while you do.

It's genuinely hard to force yourself to just sit down and keep writing news article after news article and still have something you don't feel bad for posting. I'm still not at this skill level, and it's a regular frustration for me.

What makes all this harder is doing it in a way to draw in hits, because what it all comes down to is traffic equals money. It's hard to do this in a way that still retains integrity because in the end inflammatory, overly-opinionated articles with misleading headlines will almost always get the most hits.

Reviews on their own aren't enough to let a website succeed. That's a basic fact.

Even while taking all this into mind, you've also got to maintain your integrity while also keeping publishers and PR reps happy. Ideally you also build a strong community, and it's incredibly hard to build a "strong" community that isn't automatically awful.

You need money, hits, and a dedicated team, and it's hard to get all these things without sacrificing quality or your moral fiber. It's sad, but that's the way things are.

[Fifthfiend]

I will never understand why people always take to resenting and insulting an individual simply because they have a view point that differs from your own.

Your viewpoint seems to be that it's something other than not at all ever in any way okay for businesses to not pay their employees, which you've supported in ways that are wrong as matters of both fact and law.

Just sayin'.

[Fifthfiend]

What makes all this harder is doing it in a way to draw in hits, because what it all comes down to is traffic equals money. It's hard to do this in a way that still retains integrity because in the end inflammatory, overly-opinionated articles with misleading headlines will almost always get the most hits.

Yeah I certainly can't imagine you being inflammatory and overopinionated




EDIT: I would tell you to hire me but the part where I'd have to play video games is kind of a sticking point I guess

EDIT: I could just write you like a thousand angry as fuck words about whatever I did in minecraft that week

[Aerozord]

Your viewpoint seems to be that it's something other than not at all ever in any way okay for businesses to not pay their employees, which you've supported in ways that are wrong as matters of both fact and law.

Just sayin'.

no I am saying if money isn't there then its not possible. you cant give something you dont have.

It is also common to run a company on the assumption you will make revenue in the future, in fact its one of the most basic principals in accounting. For a variety of reasons that money might not be there when it comes time.

Now hopefully I wont have to say this again, but I am not saying this is the case. Honestly I find it unlikely that a site so popular that this is even news isn't turning enough of a profit to handle its expenses. Most likely this is either horrible management grossly mishandling its accounts probably from growing too quickly, or they are just being dirty business men and screwing over people left right and center.

Of course there are other explanations, but those two seem most likely to me

[Jagos]

This kind of reminds me of how Huffington Post has done ttheir site.

If anything, they don't pay the writers, but the writers get other credits such as an increase in reputation and particular job offers.

I think that people would love to write for Escapist, they just made a mistake in how they can afford payment. To everyone. That gives them content for the low, low price of free.

[Kerensky287]

no I am saying if money isn't there then its not possible. you cant give something you dont have.

It is also common to run a company on the assumption you will make revenue in the future, in fact its one of the most basic principals in accounting. For a variety of reasons that money might not be there when it comes time.

No one is arguing that that is POSSIBLE. What it looks like to me, though (as an outside observer) is that you are suggesting that The Escapist was doing so as a "legitimate business tactic."

Yes, it is legitimate in that it is possible and occasionally works as you have laid out. However, in this case, it was not a "legitimate tactic" in the sense that no one in their right mind would ever do it and expect to make money honestly.

If The Escapist had taken out loans to pay its content providers rather than lay them off in hopes of future revenue, that would be legitimate. If The Escapist had laid off content providers that weren't raking in many hits so as to avoid taking out loans, that would be legitimate.

What The Escapist did was sort of a mix of the two. They laid off content providers to avoid taking out loans. And then they hired content providers in hopes of future revenue. The big reason why this is not a legitimate business tactic, in this case, is because they missed the all-important "pay your fucking employees" step.

It seems to me that, to a certain extent, everyone is arguing the exact same point from different angles. It just looks like there's a disagreement going on because Noncon and Solid Snake are pushing the "it's unlawful and painfully stupid" side, and Aerozord is pushing the "people have done similar things and succeeded" side.

Now hopefully I wont have to say this again, but I am not saying this is the case. Honestly I find it unlikely that a site so popular that this is even news isn't turning enough of a profit to handle its expenses. Most likely this is either horrible management grossly mishandling its accounts probably from growing too quickly, or they are just being dirty business men and screwing over people left right and center.

Of course there are other explanations, but those two seem most likely to me

I can't really comment on the validity of this statement - I don't have any business training, and most of my theories revolve around the fact that so much of their content (ie. most of the stuff aside from ZP and EC) kind of sucks - but I will point out that, as James Portnow mentioned in a response to The Escapist's big list, it feels a little suspicious that all that money suddenly appeared the moment Extra Credits asked for their IP back.

[Fifthfiend]

no I am saying if money isn't there then its not possible. you cant give something you dont have.

It is also common to run a company on the assumption you will make revenue in the future, in fact its one of the most basic principals in accounting. For a variety of reasons that money might not be there when it comes time.

Now hopefully I wont have to say this again, but I am not saying this is the case. Honestly I find it unlikely that a site so popular that this is even news isn't turning enough of a profit to handle its expenses. Most likely this is either horrible management grossly mishandling its accounts probably from growing too quickly, or they are just being dirty business men and screwing over people left right and center.

Of course there are other explanations, but those two seem most likely to me

So.

Pretty much like my post said, really.

[Solid Snake]

Man NonCon gets all the credit =/

[Fifthfiend]

uuuggggghhhh why I am bothering with this

Cause you wanna show off alla that fancy booklearnin'.

[EVILNess]

EDIT: I could just write you like a thousand angry as fuck words about whatever I did in minecraft that week

I've read dumber things to kill time.


EDIT: "A thousand angry as fuck words about whatever I did in minecraft that week" must be the title though.

[Ramary]

Hey guys what is going on in he-You know what I will let myself out.

[Jagos]

And so, Extra Credits lives (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5rh2OYQLZA&feature=feedbul)